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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    General Boards    Questions or Comments  ›  Constructive criticism
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  Author    Constructive criticism  (currently 54930 views)
Heretic
Posted: December 25th, 2005, 3:37am Report to Moderator
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I've got some constructive criticism.

More and more often, a new writer pops up (usually seeming young and inexperienced) with an idea, often laid out complete with grammatical and spelling errors and huge plot holes.  In seconds, they are picked apart in every possible way, and when they respond (usually angrily and often immaturely), they are told to grow up and get used to criticism.  

Well.  Constructive criticism it may be, but having five experienced and capable writers rip you to pieces isn't a pleasant experience for everyone.  

But it's an experience that everyone needs to have, you argue.  To better themselves.  And I agree completely.  You've gotta learn to work throught that kind of thing, to better yourself with criticism.  But it doesn't have to be on the internet when you're fifteen.  They're on the internet because they're not ready to get ripped apart by producers.  They're looking for a chance to nurture and expand their craft, but what they're getting is a bunch of guys saying "Well, I read this as a producer would..." and ripping them apart.

Give these guys a chance.  You know, a lot of the time, when these guys post (I'm sure we know the sorts I'm referring to), I have to suck back an angry retort, because what they are doing and saying often seems immature and downright stupid.  But suck it back I do, and that's the important part.  Silence speaks volumes, and if nobody replies to people they don't like, I really think everything would go better.

I think it's very easy for writers to get scared off of this site.  A young writer who posts his first script and has it ripped to shreds, who is thereafter informed that this is what it's gonna be like for a long time, may not really have much interest in continuing.  Without this experience, however, and even with some positive ones, I think that we could end up with some more valuable members of this board.

That's all I can think of.  I hope I've communicated my point clearly.  I can offer some supporting evidence in the form of script links if anyone needs it.  
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Breanne Mattson
Posted: December 25th, 2005, 4:47am Report to Moderator
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Chris,

Well put. Point taken. You’re absolutely right. People (including myself) need to consider the writer when we post. Many of them are just kids and you’re right that we need to be more sensitive to them.

For me personally, the biggest problem is with the ones who don’t seem to be serious about writing. In this day and age of the internet where one can post material instantly, it’s easy for impatience to prevail. There are many who seem to just throw together the first draft and put it out there, which is annoying. Then, of course, as you said, there is the attitude of some.

You are absolutely right however, particularly with the younger ones. We as adults have to be the responsible ones and watch out for the kids.

I try to get better but one forgets. Thanks for the reminder.


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dogglebe
Posted: December 25th, 2005, 8:56am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Breanne Mattson
There are many who seem to just throw together the first draft and put it out there, which is annoying. Then, of course, as you said, there is the attitude of some.


I've said several times in the past that people shouldn't even post their first draft.  They should rewrite atleast once and then submit it.  The first draft is filled is typos, which is what everyone points out because they are too numerous and too distracting.  Also, if a writer isn't going to spend time looking over his/her script, then why should we?


Phil

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Shelton
Posted: December 25th, 2005, 3:08pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from dogglebe


I've said several times in the past that people shouldn't even post their first draft.  They should rewrite atleast once and then submit it.  The first draft is filled is typos, which is what everyone points out because they are too numerous and too distracting.  Also, if a writer isn't going to spend time looking over his/her script, then why should we?


Phil




I submit my first drafts all the time, but I have what I consider to be a different writing style.

Before I start adding anything new to a work in process, I'll start at the beginning, read it all the way through, and then continue.  Sometimes I'll catch a typo or find something that just doesn't seem to fit, and make appropriate changes.

Maybe everyone does this, I don't know, but I find it pretty effective, and since I'm usually pretty happy with my first drafts and don't make any significant changes to them, I'll submit it and let you guys offer suggestions and criticisms for consideration in future rewrites.


But in regards to constructive criticism, I can usually find some good in any script, and I'll make a point to let the writer know it, even if I just spent three paragraphs picking it apart.

Finishing on a good note can go a long way.


Mike



Shelton's IMDb Profile

"I think I did pretty well, considering I started out with nothing but a bunch of blank paper." - Steve Martin
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Old Time Wesley
Posted: December 25th, 2005, 3:45pm Report to Moderator
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If you can't have a near perfect spelling and format wise first drafts than you deserve what you get.

I see no exceptions for this stuff or the writer having to say I rushed through this one if they want us to care about the screenplay. This happens with young writers for the most part.

Phil doesn't say I rushed through this short because he knows it would get ripped to shreds and also he has more respect for his readers as people should but they don't.

I think most of this thread is directed towards him anyway because he's the one who does this a lot and for the most part he's right on the money. I don't like his methods but I respect the fact that he knows what he knows and most of us are amateurs compared so live with it.

This is like being angry at him for being a good writer... negative feedback breeds good ideas. If we want to start being picky about that kind of thing, let's talk about the people who actually spend time here getting ignored for the most part and the bad scripts getting all the attention... Or the review exchange being a board nobody cares about and could solve all these problems.

I wish those puppy dogs and rose bushes could make the world a better place but I know that the best you can hope for is people just not posting replies but instead sending them to the writers and then nobody would ever use the script forums which would render them useless. You decide but I think negative feedback is better than nothing ever happening and Don is forced to cut off another set of boards because some people are afraid of Dogglebe... Don't post them if you're that afraid.


Practice safe lunch: Use a condiment.
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Breanne Mattson
Posted: December 25th, 2005, 4:38pm Report to Moderator
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Honestly (and I’m sure some will think I’m wrong for this), I generally don’t even comment on something if I think the writer isn’t serious.

Here’s why:

I’ve been around long enough to know that the average artist of anything (music, screenplays, novels, you name it) quits if he or she doesn’t achieve success fairly quickly, i.e. within a few years. Why waste time with these people if they’re just going to quit?

If I think a writer is serious, I would love to help him or her out (assuming I can) but if he’s not serious, then he’s a waste of my time. I don’t mean that to sound cruel. It’s a fact, though.

People can disagree but I’m just not willing to bother for the most part with writers who won’t even spell-check a draft before posting it.



Revision History (3 edits; 1 reasons shown)
Breanne Mattson  -  June 7th, 2011, 11:10am
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greg
Posted: December 25th, 2005, 5:54pm Report to Moderator
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I know what this thread is in regard to and I know how the writer feels.  One of my scripts was slapped around left and right when I was 15 on a different site.  Sure, it scared me at first, but without that slapping I wouldn't be where I am today.  Hell, the script was horrible!  But I didn't retaliate at the people reviewing it.

The problem with what this thread is in regard to, is that this certain individual doesn't take constructive criticism well and sometimes sets himself up for a beating anyway.  In this day of age with all the technology and computers at every corner, you'd think that any jackass would at least spell their title correctly.  At least

Above all else, the writer was already "sitting under the lava lamp" with its first script and their responses to the criticism was just awful.  For the most part, I do take into consideration who the writer is and I try to be nice about it.  I was hard on Bigwhoop's scripts but as time went on, I did see some improvement, so I was able to loosen my grip.  Others don't learn, which leads to sour responses.

There's one writer on here(young, of course) who puts together these shoddy scripts, not one shred of reason to read them, then posts them on here without giving it a second thought.  Unfortunately, newbs to the site(or other youngins for that) wind up giving feedback anyway which leads to more people looking at it, and all this even when the writer seldom shows up on the site anyway.

So yeah, I'm kinda going crazy with this response, but generally if they're going to be jerks, I'll be a jerk back.  I try to be nice, but I don't need some zitfaced kid being a jerk and stealing attention away from the rest of the board.    Happy Holidays


Be excellent to each other
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bert
Posted: December 25th, 2005, 6:01pm Report to Moderator
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I don't know.  I can see both sides.  Heretic is right on just about every count, but still...

does it make me a horrible person to think there are some people that just deserve to get chased off?


Hey, it's my tiny, little IMDb!
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Old Time Wesley
Posted: December 25th, 2005, 6:06pm Report to Moderator
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Greg you don't mean ****** do you? ha-ha I know who you mean (In the Horror genre, right?)

I think we have about 5 of those people, most of us don't push massive amounts of screenplays on each other leaving people wanting more.

As I once said to Balt, I wish you'd write more in which he replied .... yeah .... and a whole bunch of awkward silence as he dodged the question making me want more even more.

I think that's why Bert did so well with his new series (I won't plug it) because he doesn't release scripts like the plague, same with Phil and even you Heretic. It works well if you just release 1 full length script every year or so and have a couple shorts or some series work to satisfy your audience in the meantime.


Practice safe lunch: Use a condiment.
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Shelton
Posted: December 25th, 2005, 6:47pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Old Time Wesley
...because he doesn't release scripts like the plague


So is the number of submissions the problem, or just the fact that they just aren't any good?

If it's the former, then I'm probably the guiltiest person on this site, with three features, and four shorts posted in the span of about three months.

Mike



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"I think I did pretty well, considering I started out with nothing but a bunch of blank paper." - Steve Martin
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Alan_Holman
Posted: December 25th, 2005, 7:30pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Breanne Mattson
I’m just not willing to bother for the most part with writers who won’t even spell-check a draft before posting it.


I have three computers that don't have spell-checkers in their word-processors.  That's why attitudes like yours frustrated me when I tried to get people to take my novel GOLDEN CITY seriously.  Then I finally got a screenwriting program, and it's got a spell-checker, but a lot of people depend on computers that don't have spell-checkers, so get off your high horse and help people out when you can.
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dogglebe
Posted: December 25th, 2005, 7:50pm Report to Moderator
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When I first came to these boards, I read thte scripts completely.  I nearlt left the boards.  The first two were pretty bad and the third was so awful that Don would've banned me if I wrote how I felt about it.  This is a main reason why I don't always read the entire scripts.  If I thinks it's awful by page ten, my opinion will only get worse by the time I've read page 150.

In the time that I've been here, I've had several people get nasty with me because I found problems with their work.  Sometimes I concentrate on formatting and spelling.  Sometimes, it's on the characterization.  Sometimes the story.  Sometimes it's on all three.

And if you don't like what I write, then you have the problem.  Not me.  I have yet to criticize a script to be malicious (malicious to the writers?  That's another story).

Much like Breanne, I was beating away on a typewriter long before I had a computer.  And it was a manual typewriter.  Before that, I handwrote everything in a looseleaf binder.  Mistakes were corrected by pulling the page out and rewriting it.

I write what the Hollywood readers feel when they read a script.  The only difference between us is that I tell you what I think; they don't.  Every script here needs work, including my own.  I'm writing a shooting script for Pugumentary and I'm making more than formatting changes.

If you think you're script doesn't need improvement, then don't post it here.  Send it straight to Hollywood.  They can use perfect scripts.


Phil
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greg
Posted: December 25th, 2005, 8:09pm Report to Moderator
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It's one thing if you release quality scripts one after the other, but it's quite another to release crappy ones one after the other.  Granted if you do release one script every week, you probably won't get as many reads as you would if you release one every few months.  But if your scripts stink and you're posting one every week expecting people to read them, well joke's on you.  That's why some folk don't register with constructive criticism too well unless it sounds harsher.  This "fellow" who releases low quality scripts every week eventually got me to crack and I wrote something that was somewhat discreet in his thread.  It was like "ya know either learn from your mistakes or just stop."

Of course this "fellow" doesn't take nor pay attention to the criticism and his thread eventually got locked.  If you're gonna release a script every week, then come on, have some respect for the reader and don't go casting your own stuff, especially with names like P**** H*****.  

Another thing is that you can't tell emotions from text.  Someone can say "this script isn't very good," and they can mean that with all the compassion in the world, but the writer may take it as an insult or something.  If you think I'm writing this and I sound mad, I'm actually smiling   So I guess sometimes you need to add that strength to your writing to get the point across, because some folk completely ignore the constructive criticism and many of them don't know what they're doing anyway.


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Old Time Wesley
Posted: December 25th, 2005, 9:14pm Report to Moderator
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Anyone who releases a lot of screenplays quality or not will get less reads than those who make you wait for a masterwork whether it's good or bad you get some good feedback by being this way.

Or you do what I do and actively seek out those who are good reviewers and exchange screenplays with them. The read for a read thing worked for me in the past before it was all the rage though it really isn't as when I posted my thread on Script Exchange I seen stuff flying across the road as I dusted off the door of what used to be a good idea.

Anyways, I need some food.


Practice safe lunch: Use a condiment.
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Breanne Mattson
Posted: December 25th, 2005, 9:39pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Alan_Holman

I have three computers that don't have spell-checkers in their word-processors.  That's why attitudes like yours frustrated me when I tried to get people to take my novel GOLDEN CITY seriously.  Then I finally got a screenwriting program, and it's got a spell-checker, but a lot of people depend on computers that don't have spell-checkers, so get off your high horse and help people out when you can.


Alan,

You don’t need a spell check program to do a spell check. All you need is a dictionary, something readily available to most people. Surely you’re not suggesting that you can afford three computers but not a dictionary? And if you don’t own one, you can go to the library.

My opinion stands. You have no excuse not to proofread a draft before posting. Period.

You’re not asking me to help people out. You’re asking me to do the work for them and I won’t do it. If you didn’t have spell check, you should have quit being a lazy writer and picked up a dictionary.


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