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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Unproduced Screenplay Discussion    Drama Scripts  ›  Kirkwood Moderators: bert
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  Author    Kirkwood  (currently 3615 views)
Don
Posted: August 29th, 2008, 10:09pm Report to Moderator
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So, what are you writing?

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Kirkwood by Erik Dickson - Drama - A legal aide attorney defends his estranged brother, a Baptist minister, when he's charged with beating a young woman into a violent miscarriage.  141 pages - pdf, format


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Dreamscale
Posted: November 12th, 2008, 4:31pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Erik, I read your first 2 pages...you start with a long (VO), which will play for well over a minute.  What is on screen during this speech?
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ericdickson
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Quoted from Dreamscale
Hey Erik, I read your first 2 pages...you start with a long (VO), which will play for well over a minute.  What is on screen during this speech?



It's not 2 pages of voice over, just 1.  Just read the descriptions at the beginning of the script.  It's a CLOSE UP of a young child's eyes, staring blankly at something before him.  We're seeing through the eyes of a young, innocent boy, setting up a theme for the rest of the story.  

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dogglebe
Posted: November 17th, 2008, 10:52am Report to Moderator
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I started reading this, Erick. but I put it down after twenty pages.  Your writing is very long-winded and it doesn't go anywhere.  From what I've read, I would have no idea what this script is about.  Generally, Hollywood gives you fifteen pages to get the story going.  All I've read was background information and some character development.

There is a lot of fat in this script to trim.  Your descriptions are way too long and prose-like.  If you were to condense everything, you would probably shorten this script by a third.

One example on how to shorten it would be to take the opening soliloquy and tell it while Ben is stealing candy.  Listening to it while staring at a kid's eyes only drags it out.

Cut back on the voice over.  Show us the story; don't tell us.


Phil
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Dreamscale
Posted: November 17th, 2008, 11:27am Report to Moderator
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Yeah, I agree completely with Phil.  I only got through the opening (VO), and it was very, very long, and if it indeed is being spoken over a childs eyes for almost 2 minutes, well...that's just not a good use of screen time.

Sorry.
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ericdickson
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Quoted from Dreamscale
Yeah, I agree completely with Phil.  I only got through the opening (VO), and it was very, very long, and if it indeed is being spoken over a childs eyes for almost 2 minutes, well...that's just not a good use of screen time.

Sorry.


So you just couldn't go on because the first page voice over was too long?  Okay, I can see that.  I'll work on cutting down the first fifteen pages of Ben's childhood and condensing this thing down, but do me the favor of reading from page 20 on.  There's a good courtroom drama here with a lot of reasearch, blood, sweat and tears behind it.  People seem to like the script from that point on, Ben as a grown up, not a child.   I just have to figure out how to tell Ben and Kevin's childhood backstory and parents death a little quicker.

Thanks,
Eric    

    

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dogglebe
Posted: November 17th, 2008, 9:00pm Report to Moderator
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A lot of people say the script gets better after the point where people stop reading it; I don't believe it.  The foundations of every script is laid out starting with the first page.  Any problems at the beginning will be found at the end.  If I pointed out numerous spelling mistakes in the first twenty pages, I wouldn't believe you if you said the spelling got better after page twenty.  

I read the first twenty pages of a feature length script (give or take).  If I like what I'm reading, I continue.  If I don't I stop.  Before I started doing it this way, I've forced my way through a lot of scripts.  And I don't want to read scripts that I don't like.


Phil
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ericdickson
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Quoted from dogglebe
A lot of people say the script gets better after the point where people stop reading it; I don't believe it.  The foundations of every script is laid out starting with the first page.  Any problems at the beginning will be found at the end.  If I pointed out numerous spelling mistakes in the first twenty pages, I wouldn't believe you if you said the spelling got better after page twenty.  

I read the first twenty pages of a feature length script (give or take).  If I like what I'm reading, I continue.  If I don't I stop.  Before I started doing it this way, I've forced my way through a lot of scripts.  And I don't want to read scripts that I don't like.


Phil



Great.  Neither one of us wants you to read Kirkwood.  Agreed.  

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dogglebe
Posted: November 18th, 2008, 9:48am Report to Moderator
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I don't understand your attitude, Eric.  And I don't appreciate it.

I gave your script an honest try and wrote and honest critique of it.  Dreamscale, the only other person to look at it, agrees with what I say.  I don't get paid to read anyone's scripts; I read them because I want to.  If I don't, then I put them down.  Have you finished reading every script you've started here?

I pointed out a major problem in your script.  It starts on the first page and, probably, continues until the last page.  Your writing style is long and dragged out, making it unpleasant to read.  Knowing this, I'm going to read another 120 pages of it?

And, given your attitude, I don't see you getting too many people to read it.


PHil
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ericdickson
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Quoted from dogglebe
I don't understand your attitude, Eric.  And I don't appreciate it.

I gave your script an honest try and wrote and honest critique of it.  Dreamscale, the only other person to look at it, agrees with what I say.  I don't get paid to read anyone's scripts; I read them because I want to.  If I don't, then I put them down.  Have you finished reading every script you've started here?

I pointed out a major problem in your script.  It starts on the first page and, probably, continues until the last page.  Your writing style is long and dragged out, making it unpleasant to read.  Knowing this, I'm going to read another 120 pages of it?

And, given your attitude, I don't see you getting too many people to read it.


PHil



And Phil responds in a new record time of only 24 minutes.    
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alffy
Posted: November 18th, 2008, 10:36am Report to Moderator
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Getting on the goat of a respected member is not the way to go Jack. If you don't want advice don't post your scripts on here. Everyone and I mean everyone gets bad reviews from time to time and you have to take them on the chin and learn from your mistakes, this is how you will become a better writer. I'm not saying everything Phil says is gospel but always take on board advice and if more than one person points out something that doesn't work, maybe they're right. Just my advice, take it or leave it.


Check out my scripts...if you want to, no pressure.

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ericdickson
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Quoted from alffy
Getting on the goat of a respected member is not the way to go Jack. If you don't want advice don't post your scripts on here. Everyone and I mean everyone gets bad reviews from time to time and you have to take them on the chin and learn from your mistakes, this is how you will become a better writer. I'm not saying everything Phil says is gospel but always take on board advice and if more than one person points out something that doesn't work, maybe they're right. Just my advice, take it or leave it.



Phil's opinion was noted.  I didn't lash back.  I responded to another writer by asking them if they would continue reading my script if I worked on fixing up and trimming the first act.  I was polite about it.   This writer and I are doing an exhange.  What do I see but more of Phil's comments.  Saying, more or less the same thing.      

Phil won't even let me ask another writer to continue reading my script on my own board?  If you read my above comments, you'll see I'm working on trimming the first act.                      

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alffy
Posted: November 18th, 2008, 11:30am Report to Moderator
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My mistake Jack and I appologise. I guess I missunderstood your stand point and I'm glad I was wrong. Best of luck with the rewite.


Check out my scripts...if you want to, no pressure.

You can find my scripts here
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ericdickson
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Quoted from alffy
My mistake Jack and I appologise. I guess I missunderstood your stand point and I'm glad I was wrong. Best of luck with the rewite.



Thank you.  I appreciate it.  It's the majority opinion that my "Goodfellas" opening with Ben and Kevin's childhood is far too long.  I'll see what I can do to trim it down.    
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slabstaa
Posted: November 18th, 2008, 11:53am Report to Moderator
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Goodfellas?  I thought it was more reminiscent of The Departed.
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dogglebe
Posted: November 18th, 2008, 11:57am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from ericdickson
Phil's opinion was noted.  I didn't lash back.  I responded to another writer by asking them if they would continue reading my script if I worked on fixing up and trimming the first act.


Actually Eric, I thought you were speaking to me when you talked about reading the rest of the script.


Quoted from ericdickson
I'll work on cutting down the first fifteen pages of Ben's childhood and condensing this thing down, but do me the favor of reading from page 20 on.  


I don't know how I could've misinterpreted that.  My bad.



Quoted from ericdickson
I didn't lash back.


No....?


Quoted from ericdickson
Great.  Neither one of us wants you to read Kirkwood.  Agreed.


or


Quoted from ericdickson
And Phil responds in a new record time of only 24 minutes.



Souns like lashing out to me.


Quoted from ericdickson
Phil won't even let me ask another writer to continue reading my script on my own board?


I never said anything about permission.  I said that you'll have problem getting people to read your script because of your attitude.


Quoted from dogglebe
And, given your attitude, I don't see you getting too many people to read it.


See?


In summary:  You ask me to read the rest of the script.  Then you say you don't want me to read it.  Then you deny asking me to read it.  Then you lash out at me and then you deny it. And you misquote me.

We're on the same page now, right?


Phil
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ericdickson
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Quoted from slabstaa
Goodfellas?  I thought it was more reminiscent of The Departed.



I only steal from the best.    
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Shelton
Posted: November 18th, 2008, 12:54pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from ericdickson



Thank you.  I appreciate it.  It's the majority opinion that my "Goodfellas" opening with Ben and Kevin's childhood is far too long.  I'll see what I can do to trim it down.    


The main complaint with the eye is that it's all you see.  An eye for a minute, minute and a half.

I think the easiest fix is to show the kid walking to the convenience store during the VO.  It's an easy fix, and although not spectacular, it offers a little more action while being entirely feasible.



Shelton's IMDb Profile

"I think I did pretty well, considering I started out with nothing but a bunch of blank paper." - Steve Martin
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slabstaa
Posted: November 18th, 2008, 12:59pm Report to Moderator
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Stealing from the best is ok when you pull it off.

Scorsese’s opening to The Departed is well shot and downright scary.  He gets his point across fairly quickly this time which is surprising.

I wasn’t a big fan of your opening.  I think you should stay off the eyes.  Throw in different action scenes when this VO is happening—take Phil’s advice and maybe have it going on during the candy scene.
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ericdickson
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Okay -- before I get beat up too bad -- this script is too long and a bit long winded.  After tightening up the first act, shortening Ben's childhood story, and re working my descriptions, I should have this thing down to 120 pages soon.  I also see some problems with certain character motivations. including Raoul.  Does he know Jaclyn?  Is he covering for her?  Did he really discover blood in the restroom?  This is too foggy as it stands now.  I see that.      

Sue Ann seems to disappear after a few scenes and her story isn't quite resolved between her and Ben.  There should be a scene where Ben confronts her about all her lies and deceit.  

I've also added a tie in scene between the final trial day and the scene where Ben confronts his brother at the church.  It was sorely needed.   Now, Ben's decision to write Jaclyn a check doesn't quite come out of left field.  This scene helps to show that Ben realizes he is going to lose and how he decides to handle that.

    

  
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Dreamscale
Posted: November 19th, 2008, 3:38pm Report to Moderator
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OK, Eric, I’m done and ready to give you my thoughts.  I took 2 pages of notes as I went along, which I’ll attach at the end.  This will most likely be a double post, so I can fit everything in.

First of all, I can tell you are a good writer and know what you’re doing.  You’ve crafted an intricate story with LOTS of characters, who are for the most part, very well defined and drawn out.  Just about everything here makes sense, with no leaps of faith.  Your story and script is coherent, very clean and mistake-free, and pretty easy to follow.  I can also tell that you put alot time and effort into this, and it shows.

BUT, the first big problem is the page length.  At 141 pages, just about everyone is going to think and say the same thing…this is way too long, and most likely way overwritten.  I know, I know, it’s not fair that people immediately think this before they’ve read your script.  I hear ya 100%, but as far as I’ve found, this usually proves to be true, and in this case, it is once again a fact…you have hugely overwritten this.

You give so much detail every chance you get, and it’s tacking on unnecessary information that has nothing to do with the story, or script in general.  It’s also tacking on many extra pages, making for a long, difficult read.

I could go on and on about this, and give you literally hundreds of examples, but I think the best example I can show you is how you describe you characters.  Some will say that you have way too many named characters here, but I’d disagree with that.  Your story (and this genre) calls for a big cast, and you took the time to not only name them all, but also to give them a back-story which intertwined with many other characters.  You also told us what they were wearing, down to details of their shirts, pants, hairdos, etc.  Just too much stuff here, as the vast majority of all this had absolutely nothing to do with what was going on.  A lot of these characters showed up for 1 or 2 scenes, but again, when it’s all said and done, their relevance was nonexistent.

The 2nd big problem is that the payoff wasn’t worth the long ride.  As I was reading along, I was liking things for the most part, and kept expecting something to happen, some action, some twist, etc.  As I was getting closer and closer to the end, I began to realize that I wasn’t going to get any of the things I was so in need of.  And the end itself, was a HUGE letdown.  It actually made me a bit angry, cause everything just came to a stop with no resolution.

Here’s what I mean…in a nutshell, your story is this.  Ben and Kevin Kirkwood (and I can’t stop thinking about the ski resort in Tahoe every time I read “Kirkwood”!) lived a tough life growing up, but they turned into popular, good citizens, and generally, “likeable” guys.  A violent crime occurs and Kevin, the local Pastor, is accused.  Ben jumps onboard to defend his brother, does a lot of detective work, and defends him in a lengthy trial.

You introduced at least 30 characters…probably more, but in the end, the only resolution we have is for Ben, Kevin, and Jaclyn.  Everyone else just disappears.  Many of these characters have a lot of screen time, with many speaking parts, and as I said earlier, just about all of these characters are well developed, with lots of back story.  Scott and Jeannie are fringe main characters but they literally disappear once the trial begins. If you’re going to introduce us to all these people, you need to tie up their lives in some way or another.

The entire premise here is a simple “battery” crime, and isn’t nearly enough of a plot.  The fact that you spend some 120 pages on detective work and trial, and then end with an “out of court” settlement is another example of showing that all this was for nothing, so to speak.  I kept waiting for some big revelation to come out during the trial, but it never did…it just ended off screen, and we saw Kevin back at his church.

Not only is this a long script, it’s also a very, very “talky” script.  I’d say that dialogue takes up at least 60% of the entire script.  Nothing interesting is happening during all this dialogue.  You also have an awful lot of (VO)s that go on for minutes at a time, with absolutely nothing taking place onscreen.

But the biggest issue is the fact that there is literally no action taking place throughout the entire script.  We don’t see the crime committed.  We don’t see the girl getting killed (or even know who killed her, or if she just died, or even why).  I mean honestly, I can’t think of a single real piece of action anywhere in the entire script, and without any interesting twists or revelations, it just doesn’t work when all is said and done.

You’re probably hating this review about now, but as I said up front, there are some aspects of strong writing on display here.  There’s also a very detailed (but convoluted) story here with great characters and some underlying powerful themes.  It just doesn’t all work the way it is now though.

Cont.
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Dreamscale
Posted: November 19th, 2008, 3:39pm Report to Moderator
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My suggestions would include the following:

Take out all the excess detail in your prose, as well as mundane actions that don’t need to be written (opening doors, walking to from places, sitting down, eating, etc.).  Take out all the stuff where you “tell” us something about someone, as opposed to showing it (emotions, feelings, back story that doesn’t come into play, etc.)  You can cut out most likely 25 or more pages and not change a thing about the actual story/script, and I know it would read a lot better.

Cut down on the dialogue.  You have so many characters that have long speeches.  Keep in mind what would be showing onscreen while these speeches are going on, and decide if that’s truly what you want in this movie.  Look at how many instances you have dialogue of half a page in 1 speech.  It’s just too much and really dulls things down a lot.  I think you can cut out another 10-15 pages of excessive dialogue that really shouldn’t be in here.

Change the premise to be much more meaningful (the crime, that is).  I understand that we’re talking about a respected Pastor committing this crime, but the crime itself needs to be much more violent…more complex…more shocking.  Also, I think you need to have your “witness” characters have much more to say (not more in terms of lines, but in important details…revelations, etc.).

Add in some action during the investigation.  We have to have some action, even in a courtroom drama like this.  You almost had some with the drug dealer dude, but it ended before it got going.  I’m not sure what to suggest here, and I don’t want to write your story for you, but you seriously need some action.

Cut down on the trial scenes, as they’re dull and uneventful.  If you’re bringing up some revelations in court, then fine, but otherwise, it went on too long and then wasn’t even resolved in court, making those scenes meaningless.

Finally, you need resolution for your main characters. If we truly were interested in them, we want to know something about them when it’s all said and done.  Don’t just have them disappear…even Mr. Cross – he needs to have something to say in the end as well.

Eric, I want stress to you that I did not hate your script at all.  I actually think it has a lot of potential, is well conceived, and for the most part, well written. If I thought it was garbage, Id come out and tell you. It’s not going to be an easy fix though, and will require a lot of rethinking what it is you’re going for here, and what you want to deliver.

Hope this helps.  

Notes

Opening scene – no scene heading.  (VO) way too long…could use some retooling in terms of actually what is being said, and how it’s being said, and what’s onscreen while it’s being said.  Not sure it should even be in here…

Page 4 – “Mr. Jenkins” needs to be capped, since it’s his first intro.  Later – is it “Jergins” or Jenkins”?  He gets out and opens the gate, and then he’s back inside, with no info as to that happening…

Page 5 – 2 scene headings in a row that are identical.  2nd identical scene heading doesn’t make sense, as “Jergins is out of the pickup. If Jergins is the Sales Clerk form earlier, he should have been identified as that.  “seventies” – just use “70’s”…it reads much better.

Page 6 – Rewrite first sentence…very awkward and not written properly.   Get rid of next 2…show don’t tell.

Page 7 – “passed” should be “past”.  Watch passive verbiage (ing verbs)…don’t use them if you don’t have to – you don’t have to here at all.

Page 9 – way to much detail with the shirts they’re wearing – too much detail all in all so far.  This should be cut way, way back.

Having trouble here with passing time.  I’m assuming that years are passing – in a filmed version, this is easy to spot, but you need to keep your readers aware of where we are in terms of time.  You can do this in your scene headings or with “Supers”.

Page 15 – OK, the first 14 pages are all flashback, and you need to make this clear in terms of years, etc.  14 pages is way too long for an “intro”, and that’s what this is.  I’d say this needs to be cut back at least 7 pages, maybe even more.  It’s all back-story, and doesn’t need to have any of the detail you have in here.  I totally understand that you want to show everything that’s in your mind about this, but it’s just way too much of a slog to read through, because the vast majority of this detail doesn’t come into play at all with your story.

Page 18 – “We pay special attention…” – get rid of this…it sounds terrible.  WAY TOO much detail again here describing Kirkwood’s house.  Passive verbiage again also doesn’t sound right.

Page 19 – You’re telling us about Jaclyn – you can’t do this…show us.

Page 21, 22 – Quite a long speech/sermon by Kevin. What’s happening during all this onscreen?

Page 29 – How old is Jeannie Fox?

I don’t know if it makes any sense for a lawyer to defend his own brother?  Is this even legal?  Just asking…

Lots and lots of really long speeches…

Page 40 – I don’t like Jeannie’s character and don’t believe it makes sense with her and Scott…especially the way she acts around him.

Page 41 – “the them” – get rid of “the”.  I don’t buy this exchange between Ben and Scott (and Jeannie) at all.

Page 44 – I personally don’t like seeing “Mister” spelled out.  I think it’s perfectly alright to use the understood abbreviation, “Mr.” – it saves a lot of space in the long run and makes for an easier read also.

Page 46 – Ben’s speech – “now” used twice in one sentence.

Page 48 – Ben and Kevin both speaking the same line at the same time – just use “Ben and Kevin”.

You use “begins” very often in the sense of leaving, going, etc.  I don’t personally like it at all…up to you though.

Page 51 – Capitalize “Desk Clerk”, as it’s his first intro.

Still lots and lots of (ing) verbs being used.  Watch them and maybe reword these sentences, as most don’t sound good.

Page 54-56 – long (VO)s between Jeannie and Ben…what is playing onscreen during all this? It’s well over a minute, maybe even 2…

Page 70 – 3 (ing) verbs in 1 sentence!

Cross has been referred to by several different names, and I think his dialogue headings may even be different (Mister Cross, Cross, and Malcolm Cross) – if people are referring to him as different names, that’s cool, but you need to use one name and stick with it, when writing action/detail.

You’ve used the phrase “hopping mad” numerous times…too many!  Same with “stink eye”.

Page 88 – “passes” should be “past” again.

Page 92, 93 – I don’t get the relevance of the (VO) here.  It seems odd and out of place.

Sharon Fink – witness – She was apparently just found by Ben, then a day later, she’s in the courtroom – I think she’d have to be listed as a witness long before this…
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ericdickson
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Quoted from Dreamscale
OK, Eric, I’m done and ready to give you my thoughts.  I took 2 pages of notes as I went along, which I’ll attach at the end.  This will most likely be a double post, so I can fit everything in.

First of all, I can tell you are a good writer and know what you’re doing.  You’ve crafted an intricate story with LOTS of characters, who are for the most part, very well defined and drawn out.  Just about everything here makes sense, with no leaps of faith.  Your story and script is coherent, very clean and mistake-free, and pretty easy to follow.  I can also tell that you put alot time and effort into this, and it shows.

BUT, the first big problem is the page length.  At 141 pages, just about everyone is going to think and say the same thing…this is way too long, and most likely way overwritten.  I know, I know, it’s not fair that people immediately think this before they’ve read your script.  I hear ya 100%, but as far as I’ve found, this usually proves to be true, and in this case, it is once again a fact…you have hugely overwritten this.

You give so much detail every chance you get, and it’s tacking on unnecessary information that has nothing to do with the story, or script in general.  It’s also tacking on many extra pages, making for a long, difficult read.

I could go on and on about this, and give you literally hundreds of examples, but I think the best example I can show you is how you describe you characters.  Some will say that you have way too many named characters here, but I’d disagree with that.  Your story (and this genre) calls for a big cast, and you took the time to not only name them all, but also to give them a back-story which intertwined with many other characters.  You also told us what they were wearing, down to details of their shirts, pants, hairdos, etc.  Just too much stuff here, as the vast majority of all this had absolutely nothing to do with what was going on.  A lot of these characters showed up for 1 or 2 scenes, but again, when it’s all said and done, their relevance was nonexistent.

The 2nd big problem is that the payoff wasn’t worth the long ride.  As I was reading along, I was liking things for the most part, and kept expecting something to happen, some action, some twist, etc.  As I was getting closer and closer to the end, I began to realize that I wasn’t going to get any of the things I was so in need of.  And the end itself, was a HUGE letdown.  It actually made me a bit angry, cause everything just came to a stop with no resolution.

Here’s what I mean…in a nutshell, your story is this.  Ben and Kevin Kirkwood (and I can’t stop thinking about the ski resort in Tahoe every time I read “Kirkwood”!) lived a tough life growing up, but they turned into popular, good citizens, and generally, “likeable” guys.  A violent crime occurs and Kevin, the local Pastor, is accused.  Ben jumps onboard to defend his brother, does a lot of detective work, and defends him in a lengthy trial.

You introduced at least 30 characters…probably more, but in the end, the only resolution we have is for Ben, Kevin, and Jaclyn.  Everyone else just disappears.  Many of these characters have a lot of screen time, with many speaking parts, and as I said earlier, just about all of these characters are well developed, with lots of back story.  Scott and Jeannie are fringe main characters but they literally disappear once the trial begins. If you’re going to introduce us to all these people, you need to tie up their lives in some way or another.

The entire premise here is a simple “battery” crime, and isn’t nearly enough of a plot.  The fact that you spend some 120 pages on detective work and trial, and then end with an “out of court” settlement is another example of showing that all this was for nothing, so to speak.  I kept waiting for some big revelation to come out during the trial, but it never did…it just ended off screen, and we saw Kevin back at his church.

Not only is this a long script, it’s also a very, very “talky” script.  I’d say that dialogue takes up at least 60% of the entire script.  Nothing interesting is happening during all this dialogue.  You also have an awful lot of (VO)s that go on for minutes at a time, with absolutely nothing taking place onscreen.

But the biggest issue is the fact that there is literally no action taking place throughout the entire script.  We don’t see the crime committed.  We don’t see the girl getting killed (or even know who killed her, or if she just died, or even why).  I mean honestly, I can’t think of a single real piece of action anywhere in the entire script, and without any interesting twists or revelations, it just doesn’t work when all is said and done.

You’re probably hating this review about now, but as I said up front, there are some aspects of strong writing on display here.  There’s also a very detailed (but convoluted) story here with great characters and some underlying powerful themes.  It just doesn’t all work the way it is now though.

Cont.



No one died in this story.  Just the unborn child she claims she was carrying.  The girl was assaulted and supposedly miscarriaged.  The story follows her going to the Pastor's home to break the news of her pregnancy and The Pastor (as far as we know) beat her to the point of aborting the child.  

It's a big media story concerning a well respected public figure.  This is only one of the stories going on here.  The other concerns a bitter young lawyer's dark past with his highly respected, but estranged brother.  Ben is so filled with resentment and hatred having to grow up in an orphanage, he cannot let go of the past.  

Because of his cynical view of life, he still believes his brother had sexual relations with the girl and possibly got her pregnant.  It all goes back to their father killing their mother and both men's history of drug and alcohol abuse.  Ben just doesn't see innocence running in his family or in his own life.  This is why he chose to cheat his way out of the trial.  He knows he cannot win it otherwise.  He has lost all hope, basically.  Thisis one of the reasons I cut the trial short.  

In the end, the only way he feels he can finally do good is to make peace with the girl, Jaclyn.  He gets her a plane ticket to see her mother and fix their relationship before it's too late.  

I wanted this ending to be open ended, where an audience has to decide if The Pastor slept with her or not.  Based on his or her own faith.  

I'd have to really blame the abrupt ending on me running out of time.  The script was just getting too long and couldn't incorporate all the scenes I wanted.  There were supposed to be closing arguments and a trial's end, but would have to re-write this thing from the beginning to tell the story I originally wanted to.  This will take some time.      

Thanks,
Eric
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Dreamscale
Posted: November 19th, 2008, 7:34pm Report to Moderator
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Yeah, I got all that Eric.

There was indeed a death in here...the friend of Jaclyn that they saw in the morgue.
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seamus19382
Posted: November 20th, 2008, 9:14am Report to Moderator
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I got about half way through yesterday.  I hope to finish it up today.  Some first impressions.

Lose the first fifteen pages.  It's all backstory.  Unless there is a specific payoff for something that happens in those fifteen pages, they're not needed.  And they also rob the rest of the script of any subtext.  There's no subtext because it's all been laid out for us in long voice overs.

The screenplay I'm working on now, it took about two years and 300 drafts before I realized my story started on page 30.  yours starts on page 15.

As Dreamscale pointed out, your writing is too wordy.  It's not bad, but it needs to be more economical.  

Two quick examples - after the fight in the church Kevin "sits at the table closest to the kitchen with an ice pack on his eye" (Roughly).  It doesn;'t matter where the table is in relation to the kitchen.  

Then when Ben is at the diner he sips and ice cold coke.  Does it matter that it's ice cold?

I'm on about page 70 or so and haven't seen Kevin in roughly thirty pages.  I think you need one more scene in there with him.

Also, I don't see any payoff with the church having hired overmayer.  I get the emotional blow to Ben and all, but it just kind of hangs there.  And it's a good source of conflict.  I would have Kevin stick with overmayer at first.  Let him run through some of the pre-trial stuff (which I also agree with Dreamscale needs to have a bit more punch.)  Maybe Ben goes off and investigates on his own out of his need to prove himself.  Or maybe Scott pushes him to investigate to give Ben a chance at redemption.  But make him earn it.  Right now its just given to him.

And last but not least, lose the groundskeeper.  Too pat.  

Hopefully I'll get through the rest of this today.
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seamus19382
Posted: November 21st, 2008, 10:25am Report to Moderator
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All right finished this yesterday.

As I stated before, niot enough Kevin in the second act.  he kind of disappears for awhile.

Too many scenes with long voice overs.  I'm thinking of the scene where Jeannie is in the Kinko's.  Not sure I like the phone confession with Ben and the guy in the apartment.  

the scene where he picks up the food and the waitress gives him info, she says she can't talk now come back, we have a new scene heading and then she's telling him.  Just have her tell him.  No need to drag that out.

As forthe ending there's a couple of points.  

There needs to be some sort of resolution in the court room.  Even if Ben gives a closing argument and then gives Jaclyn the check.  We need some closure on what happened inside the court room.  

You said in the end, Bens still cynical and has lost all hope.  But at the beginning he's cynical and has no hope.  So there's no real growth for him as a character.  He's in jail after a bender in the opening, clearly in an emotional crisis.  At the end he's still in an emotional crisis.  There needs to be a resolution.  
Evevn if it's just him becoming clear eyed about the fact that his sainted brother is as much of a screw up s he is (In which case, you should be less ambigous over whether Kevin was sleeping around.)

As it is, I think you're giving the courtroom drama precedence over the family drama.  But your ending resolves the family drama, but not really the courtroom drama.  

I'm sorry if this is all a bit disjointed and rambling.  If you have any questions, feel free to ask.  All in all, I think this is pretty good.  There are some issues, but I think they can fixed without a huge amount of trouble.
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ericdickson
Posted: April 11th, 2009, 11:32am Report to Moderator
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I finally got this thing down to 125 pages, changed the ending, added a final resolution and summation in the courtroom, made a lot of suggested changes, etc and my computer crashed on me.  Now I have to start all over again.  Maybe it's for the better.  

      
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skylightlynch
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Thats why you always save as you go and back up all your work DAILY on a thumb drive . . . . or floppy for those of you still rockin the late 90's


"If somebody tells you your first script is good, it's because they are lying. It will be awful, trust me." - Blake Snyder
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ericdickson
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Quoted from skylightlynch
Thats why you always save as you go and back up all your work DAILY on a thumb drive . . . . or floppy for those of you still rockin the late 90's


I backed it up, then lost the CD when I moved.  I usually send a copy to my hotmail account just to be safe, but, of course, forgot to do it with Kirkwood.  

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A.S. Kelly
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I read the opening couple of pages and I agree with most people, the V.O. is just too long, and accompanied just by a close up of a child's eyes? That shot going on for an entire minute would quite frankly be boring, maybe ten seconds would suffice, closing in on the eyes with the dialogue, then cutting to the candy store scene, with the V.O. continuing. But what can I say about cinematography? As a writer you can only write a couple of shots at the most into your script - that's the job of the director and DP.
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