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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Unproduced Screenplay Discussion    Drama Scripts  ›  Thief Moderators: bert
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  Author    Thief  (currently 7852 views)
Don
Posted: January 10th, 2010, 2:48pm Report to Moderator
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So, what are you writing?

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Thief by Michael Cornetto, Sandra E. Watson, Thomas Pascal, Gary Rademan With the assistance of Gabriel Moronta, Jeff Bush, Elisabeth DuBois, Toby Elmers - Drama, Comedy - Thieves, secrets, and a suspicious RV are the mysteries that eight dysfunctional friends will encounter, during a quirky high school reunion. 115 pages - pdf, format


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mcornetto
Posted: January 10th, 2010, 3:10pm Report to Moderator
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Fantastic.  Thanks for posting this Don!

Here's the output of many months of work that a number of us put into the collaborative exercise.  We would really love to get some feedback from all of you so that we can make it even better.

Cheers,

Michael
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JamieR
Posted: January 10th, 2010, 3:58pm Report to Moderator
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This is fun. Very polished; some good dialogue. I'm going to give some criticism, but please take it in the context of me liking the script overall.

My honest feedback is that I stopped reading after page 20. I liked what I had read so far, and I could have carried on, but I didn't feel compelled to so I stopped. Here are, I think, the reasons why it didn't really hook me:

1, It was a bit on the nose. You had some interesting ideas. For example, the former alcoholic who now abstains, and the girl who had had a sex change. But both of them declared this to be the case pretty early on. I think you could hook people in by hinting at these things for a while and then letting them out as mini-twists. For example, have Roddy in a bad mood but don't explain why. Have him behave covertly as he tries to disguise the fact that he is not drinking. Have no-one quite sure who Francesca is. I think this would add a bit more texture and interest and keep people reading

2. After telling you not to be so on the nose, I'm going to say the opposite in relation to one thing... I think it might benefit from being a little more up-front about what the central idea of the script is. At page 20 I still don't know. It feels like a friendship type thing, but the description and the title tell me it's going to be about crime. I was finding myself skimming through because I wanted to get to something that would give me a handle on the plot. You need to flag it up more so we know what we're getting into - even if you just make it obvious what genre you're in

Hope this is some help. Well done.


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mcornetto
Posted: January 10th, 2010, 4:31pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Jamie,

Thanks for the read and for liking it.  I agree that there's probably some stuff that could be cut from the first 20 pages but this being a first draft of a multiple author script it's kind of hard to get a consensus so your feedback is enormously helpful.

1. You might be right and we could have been a bit more subtle but in actually the information fed to you is extremely important later on in the script.  This isn't about Roddy trying to stay sober and it isn't about Francesca trying to fool everyone.  They arc from their initial states as the script progresses.

2. I have to agree with this.  Though we do start on the ring, which is what is stolen, before 20  it doesn't get stolen until around 30, so we could tighten things up a bit.  This is mostly my fault because of the way I divvied up the outline for the beginning.  What to cut though?

Thanks again for your feedback.    
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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 10th, 2010, 6:23pm Report to Moderator
Of The Ancients


What if the Hokey Pokey, IS what it's all about?

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Quoted from JamieR
This is fun. Very polished; some good dialogue. I'm going to give some criticism, but please take it in the context of me liking the script overall.

My honest feedback is that I stopped reading after page 20. I liked what I had read so far, and I could have carried on, but I didn't feel compelled to so I stopped. Here are, I think, the reasons why it didn't really hook me:

1, It was a bit on the nose. You had some interesting ideas. For example, the former alcoholic who now abstains, and the girl who had had a sex change. But both of them declared this to be the case pretty early on. I think you could hook people in by hinting at these things for a while and then letting them out as mini-twists. For example, have Roddy in a bad mood but don't explain why. Have him behave covertly as he tries to disguise the fact that he is not drinking. Have no-one quite sure who Francesca is. I think this would add a bit more texture and interest and keep people reading

2. After telling you not to be so on the nose, I'm going to say the opposite in relation to one thing... I think it might benefit from being a little more up-front about what the central idea of the script is. At page 20 I still don't know. It feels like a friendship type thing, but the description and the title tell me it's going to be about crime. I was finding myself skimming through because I wanted to get to something that would give me a handle on the plot. You need to flag it up more so we know what we're getting into - even if you just make it obvious what genre you're in

Hope this is some help. Well done.


Jamie,

Thank you so much for giving this what you did. I love what you propose as to not showing so much initially; however, I'm also wondering what other people think in regards to this sentiment:

Some people say that writers often hold back, trying to keep up suspense in a false kind of way that doesn't work.

I'm referring to what young writers often do. They think that by "not telling" they are creating suspense, but that is not real suspense, but rather the withholding of information.

If the characters are comfortable revealing "what they are"; indeed, if they are even bursting at the seams to reveal their personal life changes, then I think that the script should remain regarding the characters' dramatic internal need.

Having said that, I think we need to ask ourselves the question:

What didn't turn you on? What's the thing that's stalling us all out? If we can figure that out, we will be able to compress the beginning more and nail it. I feel very strongly that you're right and that we're missing something.

I think we can nail it more with some genuine feedback such as yours.

You weren't compelled to read on; yet you said it was fun.

Doesn't make sense. We're missing something and I know it; just don't know what it is.

Give us more. Tell us if you can, which character you'd like to know about. Gabriel is the host. Would you like to know more about him?

Also:

Note:

I'd like to see us work the title more to reflect the Thief theme and also comedy.

Thank you so much again. We really appreciate it!!!!

Sandra



A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.
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JamieR
Posted: January 10th, 2010, 7:14pm Report to Moderator
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Hi Sandra & MCornetto,

Sandra, you asked for some more insight. Now, bear in mind I haven't read to the end. But here's some 'shooting from the hip' thoughts.

The problem as I see it is that this first 20 pages doesn't really do much. It seems to introduce us to the characters but not much else. I meant it when I said it was fun, but that's because the dialogue was light and well-written - that's never going to be enough to keep me fully engaged. Seems that there are a couple of ways you could go with this first 20 pages:

1. If you agree with me that it's purpose is just to introduce the characters, then rocket through it a lot quicker. Skip everyone arriving at the house, for example. You could start with them all in a room, have some dramatic event, and let the characters' reactions tell us what we need to know about them. E.g. the lights go off (okay, so that is the biggest cliche in the book, but you get the idea). The alcoholic says he needs a drink and clatters around with the glasses - everyone tells him to pull himself together and not to touch a drop. Francesca says she feels less self-conscious in the dark since her sex change. You can do a lot better - those are just illustrative. That way everyone's introduced in, say, 4 pages and the pace is much, much faster.

2. If you feel that for some reason things have to unfold the way they do currently (to make the rest of the script work) then you NEED (I think) to add something to make it more interesting. At the moment you have the social awkwardness which I liked - maybe you could throw in some more funnies to hook us? You have some arguments at the moment, but we don't have the background to really be invested in them. What I was getting at with the mini-twists was just something to get the same information across in a more interesting way. A way to add that extra layer of interest. I get what you say about them being comfortable with their characters. But there must be some aspect of the situation that they're not comfortable with that you can leverage. Alcoholism and transvestism are both interesting - it just seems a bit of a dramatic waste to come right out and say it without making the audience do any work or there being too much conflict or tension. Maybe that's not the way to go - but you need, I think, something. At the moment the characters seem 2 dimensional: there has to be more going on beneath the surface that the audience sees bits of but not the whole story (but knows that there are things left unseen).

Finally, I spoke about letting us know what type of feature it is. As to how you would do that, I didn't read far enough to be absolutely clear what type it is. But if it's a story of dishonesty then you could have them all playing cards at the beginning and someone cheats, but we don't know who as the way to introduce them all. Unsubtle, but would let us know. If it's a story of third parties coming in and stealing stuff then have an opening shot with someone putting on a fancy necklass and being watched from outside the window. Or the hostess finding her necklass missing and thinking she must have lost it. Just something right at the start to set the tone and let us know what's in store...



3.


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JamieR
Posted: January 10th, 2010, 7:33pm Report to Moderator
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PS grateful if you have the chance to look at my Munich script that went up today: http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-drama/m-1263152812/

Don't worry if not, of course


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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 10th, 2010, 7:53pm Report to Moderator
Of The Ancients


What if the Hokey Pokey, IS what it's all about?

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Quoted from JamieR
Hi Sandra & MCornetto,

Sandra, you asked for some more insight. Now, bear in mind I haven't read to the end. But here's some 'shooting from the hip' thoughts.

The problem as I see it is that this first 20 pages doesn't really do much. It seems to introduce us to the characters but not much else. I meant it when I said it was fun, but that's because the dialogue was light and well-written - that's never going to be enough to keep me fully engaged. Seems that there are a couple of ways you could go with this first 20 pages:

1. If you agree with me that it's purpose is just to introduce the characters, then rocket through it a lot quicker. Skip everyone arriving at the house, for example. You could start with them all in a room, have some dramatic event, and let the characters' reactions tell us what we need to know about them. E.g. the lights go off (okay, so that is the biggest cliche in the book, but you get the idea). The alcoholic says he needs a drink and clatters around with the glasses - everyone tells him to pull himself together and not to touch a drop. Francesca says she feels less self-conscious in the dark since her sex change. You can do a lot better - those are just illustrative. That way everyone's introduced in, say, 4 pages and the pace is much, much faster.





The problem as I see it is that this first 20 pages doesn't really do much. It seems to introduce us to the characters but not much else. I meant it when I said it was fun, but that's because the dialogue was light and well-written - that's never going to be enough to keep me fully engaged. Seems that there are a couple of ways you could go with this first 20 pages:


I completely agree with you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well done, Jamie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You know what, if the scripts on here continue to receive feedback such as yours, we can say that we're truly blessed.

What You've stated is exactly what I felt from the beginning.

In fact, although it might be a little too risque, I felt in the beginning that we should eliminate all of the "Guest Rooms" and have this eccentric group sleep together, in a recreation room, on the floor, old-school style.

Many of us remember this kind of thing and I think it would bring us all back to those times.

The fact that people were arriving at the door one-by-one always bothered me. I felt it took too long to get going. Especially since we've got eight characters!

Fabulous!!!

I'm glad this is stated from someone not involved with the project. I don't like to push my opinion on people and bring other people's creativity down into the pit; so I didn't say anything, but I'm grateful that you've spoken up, open and honest.

Sandra



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Grandma Bear
Posted: January 10th, 2010, 8:02pm Report to Moderator
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I have a question for you Sandra.

I have your script left to read in the 7wc, but since it seems most people don't seem to be able to get to the end, would you prefer me to read this one instead? You read a lot and are very good at analyzing scripts so I want to do a good job for you. Just tell me which one you'd prefer me to read. Normally I would read both, but I have been bombarded with scripts to read lately, plus I need to repay those who read my 7wc.

Please let me know.  


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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 10th, 2010, 8:05pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Grandma Bear
I have a question for you Sandra.

I have your script left to read in the 7wc, but since it seems most people don't seem to be able to get to the end, would you prefer me to read this one instead? You read a lot and are very good at analyzing scripts so I want to do a good job for you. Just tell me which one you'd prefer me to read. Normally I would read both, but I have been bombarded with scripts to read lately, plus I need to repay those who read my 7wc.

Please let me know.  


Dear Pia,

Read what you like, when you like.

No strings attached.

Love,

Sandra (Don't you love that old letter feel?   )



A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.
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mcornetto
Posted: January 12th, 2010, 5:28pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Team,

At least someone realises what I great script we have here. An email I got today...

*************************************************************

Dear Michael,

I recently read your screenplay "Thief" on the Simply Scripts website. I was very impressed with it and feel that you definitely have a lot of potential as a screenwriter. I have been working with some other writers to setup a website aimed to give screenwriters better exposure and also a more efficient way of gaining feedback. We've managed to get deals with major production studios and right now we are looking for screenwriters like yourself to try the site and give us your thoughts. It is entirely free and it would be a great opportunity for you to be one of the first on board. The link is http://www.beta.circalit.com.

We've currently given access to a select group of producers and agents to browse the site for literary talent. If a producer wants to contact you, they will do so through the site. Over the next month as we launch fully, we will be inviting more producers and agents to use the site, which will hopefully get your screenplay the exposure it deserves.

If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to get in touch. Hopefully I will see you in the Circalit website!

Best Wishes,

Rob

--
Robert Tucker
Head of Product Development


******************************************************

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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 12th, 2010, 5:55pm Report to Moderator
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What if the Hokey Pokey, IS what it's all about?

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Quoted from mcornetto
Hey Team,

At least someone realises what I great script we have here. An email I got today...

*************************************************************

Dear Michael,

I recently read your screenplay "Thief" on the Simply Scripts website. I was very impressed with it and feel that you definitely have a lot of potential as a screenwriter. I have been working with some other writers to setup a website aimed to give screenwriters better exposure and also a more efficient way of gaining feedback. We've managed to get deals with major production studios and right now we are looking for screenwriters like yourself to try the site and give us your thoughts. It is entirely free and it would be a great opportunity for you to be one of the first on board. The link is http://www.beta.circalit.com.

We've currently given access to a select group of producers and agents to browse the site for literary talent. If a producer wants to contact you, they will do so through the site. Over the next month as we launch fully, we will be inviting more producers and agents to use the site, which will hopefully get your screenplay the exposure it deserves.

If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to get in touch. Hopefully I will see you in the Circalit website!

Best Wishes,

Rob

--
Robert Tucker
Head of Product Development


******************************************************



That's wonderful, Michael.

The important thing is that we can feel the love and passion. If passion is a kind of kinetic energy, then it's the fuel we need to keep working. That and a little magic.  

Sandra




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mcornetto
Posted: January 12th, 2010, 6:04pm Report to Moderator
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Sandra, I was actually being a bit sarcastic by posting this obvious chain letter in the hopes that we might gain some emotional blackmail points from the people who haven't read Thief yet.
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Dreamscale
Posted: January 12th, 2010, 6:17pm Report to Moderator
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I'll read it and post feedback.  BEWARE!!!  BWOOOHAHA!!

I did want to thank you guys for including me as a contributor.  Very cool.  I feel very bad about backing out and I honestly hope you guys are still cool with me.  Knowing now how long it went on after I jumped ship, it was a good decision on my part for sure.  No way could I have held up that long.
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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 12th, 2010, 6:19pm Report to Moderator
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What if the Hokey Pokey, IS what it's all about?

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Quoted from mcornetto
Sandra, I was actually being a bit sarcastic by posting this obvious chain letter in the hopes that we might gain some emotional blackmail points from the people who haven't read Thief yet.


You can't count on me to know that.   I'm an optimist.

Still, Thief is a masterpiece. It's a diamond in the rough. Yes, it's rough, but it's still a diamond.  

Sandra



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Grandma Bear
Posted: January 12th, 2010, 6:22pm Report to Moderator
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I have read the first 20 pages so far. I will finish tomorrow, hopefully.

My biggest issue so far is all the introductions and who is the protag and who is the antag.


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mcornetto
Posted: January 12th, 2010, 6:24pm Report to Moderator
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It would be interesting to hear from all of the contributors.  Even though I considered this good enough for a first draft, the script definitely needs a bit of tearing up and tightening.  And that's exactly why I posted it.  So give it your best go.

And Jeff, as a veteran of "the games"  you know that the only time any grudge is held is when you do a "no show".   If you tell us what's up - which you did - then everyone is cool with it.  
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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 12th, 2010, 6:40pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Grandma Bear
I have read the first 20 pages so far. I will finish tomorrow, hopefully.

My biggest issue so far is all the introductions and who is the protag and who is the antag.


Yes, we've taken too long to get it going. I sensed this, but wasn't really quite sure.

With the feedback, I think we can all be sure that we need to work on this.

Sandra



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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 12th, 2010, 6:52pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale
I'll read it and post feedback.  BEWARE!!!  BWOOOHAHA!!

I did want to thank you guys for including me as a contributor.  Very cool.  I feel very bad about backing out and I honestly hope you guys are still cool with me.  Knowing now how long it went on after I jumped ship, it was a good decision on my part for sure.  No way could I have held up that long.


Go for it, Jeff. Hopefully you won't die a slow and painful death during the Broadway scene.

I love theatre and my present for Christmas included going to see Jesus Christ Superstar  on January 1st, with Ted Neely, the Jesus in the movie from the 70s. (Wait, that sounds wrong doesn't it? Well, I didn't go with him, but with my husband  )

His voice is still fabulous. I was blessed to be able to see it. (See his voice? Wow, she really does have magic powers, you think. Yu think?)

Even though we spent $30 bucks for two doubles, it's still a blessing. Doubles are always a blessing when you drink them with Jesus.

Anyways, you'll probably hate it, but it's been a lot of fun even though Logan never got to show up.  

Sandra






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Mr.Ripley
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I read to pg. 50 something but I'm still holding my thoughts till the end since I have no idea how this is all going to turn out. Thanks for putting me as contributing.

Some of the things that came to me were the amount of characters we have to keep track of. But we already knew that from the getco. And some of the scenes could be cut short. I'll give more detail once I'm done.


Just Murdered by Sean Elwood (Zombie Sean) and Gabriel Moronta (Mr. Ripley) - (Dark Comedy, Horror) All is fair in love and war. A hopeless romantic gay man resorts to bloodshed to win the coveted position of Bridesmaid. 99 pages.
https://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-comedy/m-1624410571/
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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 12th, 2010, 7:40pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Mr.Ripley
I read to pg. 50 something but I'm still holding my thoughts till the end since I have no idea how this is all going to turn out. Thanks for putting me as contributing.

Some of the things that came to me were the amount of characters we have to keep track of. But we already knew that from the getco. And some of the scenes could be cut short. I'll give more detail once I'm done.


We might consider turning this into a nighttime soap. Then, we can derive some focus with some of the characters.

If we like it, we can rewrite and create more scenes where all of the characters are interacting together, rather than as smaller groups.

The nighttime soap would create the individual and small group dynamics, and the movie would concentrate on the larger group dynamics.

Sandra



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ghost and_ghostie gal
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To the writers of thief...

Just my humble thoughts... so I'm treading lightly here.  Looking at the names on here, there should be very little kink in your armor.  IMO.  For the record, "I wouldn't have jumped ship."  What do you do when you come to the end of your rope?  You tie a knot and hang on.

Having said that... I'm a technical man and big on writing.  Yes, I know this is only a first draft and I'm not going to harp on that too much but I thought this was written  well, but I'd like to mention a few things before I give my thoughts on the story overall...

Page#1  "If the grass is always greener on the other side, then this is the other side."  This is alright, I guess but I got this impression anyway after I read the very next line.  I'm thinking okay, the "PLACE DE RA-ZON" is the cream of the crop.  Heaven on earth so-to-speak.  I think you showed us already.  But this is just ghost.

Page#5, though it's snug at back of the room.  Could be worded better.

Page#43, "The three of them wind up staring where Darnell is staring, is staring, is staring."  I guess I kind of get it.

"Awkward moment of silence"  overkill.  Wearily and tiresome.  Lots.  Get more creative will you.

A few spacing issues in the action lines throughout.  For example on page #14, Cherry has already rushed over   to Jimmy.  Sorry, I can't resist... Why not, Cherry rushes over to Jimmy instead or better yet, Cherry's at Jimmy's side.

Nothing to distract the reader, just small stuff.  Things I wanted to point out.  Onto your story.

I thought you'll did a very nice job with the characters in this.  Is there alot, absolutely but this is a feature.  I didn't have any problem keeping up with any of them to be honest.  Having said this... they all were inmature and for some reason 28.  Yes, it's very plausible but I couldn't help thinking why make them all 28?  

I didn't really dislike any of your characters.  None of them IMO did anything that bad to warrant it.  I have to admit guys like Roddy, I always butted heads with in high school.

Cherry one big flirt.  A thing with Jimmy, making out with Roddy, flirting with Darnell at dinner.  I felt bad for Johnny still holding that crush after all these years.  He sees her and then she flocks to Jimmy.  After this happens he's furious.  Being he intended to propose to her, it's plausible but I was thinking most guys after not seeing a high school crush for so long wouldn't be that furious atleast off the bat.  But this is just Ghost.

When Jeana gets a phone call about her father and has to go.  The exchange between her and gabriel, I had to read it twice.  It just didn't feel right.  More so rehearsed.  One big act.  "It got the wheels in my head spinning."

This was small but I liked this... page#10, when Jeana grabs Jimmy's drink and heads out with darnell.  Jimmy says, "She stole my drink."  Befitting with the title of this script... not to mention when Darnell is accussed of stealing the RV, and then Johnny notices the ring missing on page#37 and Jimmy pick-pockets the ring from Darnell later on.

Lots of conflicts going on, between the characters kept this interseting.  Jimmy and Johnny's conflict I like the most because I could relate to that a longtime ago.  

I like how you'll didn't reveal to much at the paintball fight.  I thought the flashbacks were a nice touch.  

Maybe the ring could come up missing a few pages earlier.  Just a thought.  Oh Protag and antag wasn't quite sure.  

I wont spoil then ending only to say, fair enough.  Overall, I found the story to be very entertaining and lots of potential as well.  Nothing made me laugh out loud though.  But as you'll know, you can definitely tighten up the writing for sure.

Just my thoughts.  I'm sure others to follow will give you more detailed feedback then mines.

Good job overall

Ghostwriter


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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 12th, 2010, 10:06pm Report to Moderator
Of The Ancients


What if the Hokey Pokey, IS what it's all about?

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To the writers of thief...

Just my humble thoughts... so I'm treading lightly here.  Looking at the names on here, there should be very little kink in your armor.  IMO.  For the record, "I wouldn't have jumped ship."  What do you do when you come to the end of your rope?  You tie a knot and hang on.

Having said that... I'm a technical man and big on writing.  Yes, I know this is only a first draft and I'm not going to harp on that too much but I thought this was written  well, but I'd like to mention a few things before I give my thoughts on the story overall...

Page#1  "If the grass is always greener on the other side, then this is the other side."  This is alright, I guess but I got this impression anyway after I read the very next line.  I'm thinking okay, the "PLACE DE RA-ZON" is the cream of the crop.  Heaven on earth so-to-speak.  I think you showed us already.  But this is just ghost.

Page#5, though it's snug at back of the room.  Could be worded better.

Page#43, "The three of them wind up staring where Darnell is staring, is staring, is staring."  I guess I kind of get it.

"Awkward moment of silence"  overkill.  Wearily and tiresome.  Lots.  Get more creative will you.

A few spacing issues in the action lines throughout.  For example on page #14, Cherry has already rushed over   to Jimmy.  Sorry, I can't resist... Why not, Cherry rushes over to Jimmy instead or better yet, Cherry's at Jimmy's side.

Nothing to distract the reader, just small stuff.  Things I wanted to point out.  Onto your story.

I thought you'll did a very nice job with the characters in this.  Is there alot, absolutely but this is a feature.  I didn't have any problem keeping up with any of them to be honest.  Having said this... they all were inmature and for some reason 28.  Yes, it's very plausible but I couldn't help thinking why make them all 28?  

I didn't really dislike any of your characters.  None of them IMO did anything that bad to warrant it.  I have to admit guys like Roddy, I always butted heads with in high school.

Cherry one big flirt.  A thing with Jimmy, making out with Roddy, flirting with Darnell at dinner.  I felt bad for Johnny still holding that crush after all these years.  He sees her and then she flocks to Jimmy.  After this happens he's furious.  Being he intended to propose to her, it's plausible but I was thinking most guys after not seeing a high school crush for so long wouldn't be that furious atleast off the bat.  But this is just Ghost.

When Jeana gets a phone call about her father and has to go.  The exchange between her and gabriel, I had to read it twice.  It just didn't feel right.  More so rehearsed.  One big act.  "It got the wheels in my head spinning."

This was small but I liked this... page#10, when Jeana grabs Jimmy's drink and heads out with darnell.  Jimmy says, "She stole my drink."  Befitting with the title of this script... not to mention when Darnell is accussed of stealing the RV, and then Johnny notices the ring missing on page#37 and Jimmy pick-pockets the ring from Darnell later on.

Lots of conflicts going on, between the characters kept this interseting.  Jimmy and Johnny's conflict I like the most because I could relate to that a longtime ago.  

I like how you'll didn't reveal to much at the paintball fight.  I thought the flashbacks were a nice touch.  

Maybe the ring could come up missing a few pages earlier.  Just a thought.  Oh Protag and antag wasn't quite sure.  

I wont spoil then ending only to say, fair enough.  Overall, I found the story to be very entertaining and lots of potential as well.  Nothing made me laugh out loud though.  But as you'll know, you can definitely tighten up the writing for sure.

Just my thoughts.  I'm sure others to follow will give you more detailed feedback then mines.

Good job overall

Ghostwriter


Thank you Ghost!!!!

I can't answer specifics, because I'm still figrurin' .

Sandra



A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.
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mcornetto
Posted: January 13th, 2010, 4:36am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Mr.Ripley
I read to pg. 50 something but I'm still holding my thoughts till the end since I have no idea how this is all going to turn out. Thanks for putting me as contributing.

No worries.  You came very close to a written by but I decided that it was fair to make the cut off for written by for those who finished.

Some of the things that came to me were the amount of characters we have to keep track of. But we already knew that from the getco. And some of the scenes could be cut short. I'll give more detail once I'm done.

Great.  Looking forward to hearing what you have to say.



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mcornetto
Posted: January 13th, 2010, 4:53am Report to Moderator
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To the writers of thief...

Nothing to distract the reader, just small stuff.  Things I wanted to point out.  Onto your story.

Thanks for the technical comments.  Those will probably be the easiest to take care of

I thought you'll did a very nice job with the characters in this.  Is there alot, absolutely but this is a feature.  I didn't have any problem keeping up with any of them to be honest.  Having said this... they all were inmature and for some reason 28.  Yes, it's very plausible but I couldn't help thinking why make them all 28?


A LOT of work went into the characters, I happy to hear it shows.  Why 28? They all went to school together this is a 10 year reunion for them - that makes them about 28. Why are they immature?  We figure when your with a group of friends that you knew in your childhood, you might act a bit childish.    


I didn't really dislike any of your characters.  None of them IMO did anything that bad to warrant it.  I have to admit guys like Roddy, I always butted heads with in high school.

We didn't want anyone to be too much of a meanny.   Well, we did but then someone else didn't and you can imagine how that goes.

Cherry one big flirt.  A thing with Jimmy, making out with Roddy, flirting with Darnell at dinner.  I felt bad for Johnny still holding that crush after all these years.  He sees her and then she flocks to Jimmy.  After this happens he's furious.  Being he intended to propose to her, it's plausible but I was thinking most guys after not seeing a high school crush for so long wouldn't be that furious atleast off the bat.  But this is just Ghost.


I reckon Johnny was always a bit like that with Cherry.  But I think Cherry thought of it as brotherly protection when they were kids.  But that could be just mcornetto.


When Jeana gets a phone call about her father and has to go.  The exchange between her and gabriel, I had to read it twice.  It just didn't feel right.  More so rehearsed.  One big act.  "It got the wheels in my head spinning."

Because it is one big act.

This was small but I liked this... page#10, when Jeana grabs Jimmy's drink and heads out with darnell.  Jimmy says, "She stole my drink."  Befitting with the title of this script... not to mention when Darnell is accussed of stealing the RV, and then Johnny notices the ring missing on page#37 and Jimmy pick-pockets the ring from Darnell later on.

And a lot of love stealing going on too.  But actually the title has a bit to do with the way the exercise worked as well.


Lots of conflicts going on, between the characters kept this interseting.  Jimmy and Johnny's conflict I like the most because I could relate to that a longtime ago.  

I like how you'll didn't reveal to much at the paintball fight.  I thought the flashbacks were a nice touch.  

Maybe the ring could come up missing a few pages earlier.  Just a thought.  Oh Protag and antag wasn't quite sure.

I would have liked the ring to get stolen a bit earlier but I take the blame for it getting stolen later.  It's because of the way I divided the story.  It can be fixed though.  

Personally, I think the antag/protag is the entire group.  I think this is an ark movie.

I wont spoil then ending only to say, fair enough.  Overall, I found the story to be very entertaining and lots of potential as well.  Nothing made me laugh out loud though.  But as you'll know, you can definitely tighten up the writing for sure.

Just my thoughts.  I'm sure others to follow will give you more detailed feedback then mines.

Glad you enjoyed it overall and thanks so much for taking the time to comment.  Cheers!



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screenrider
Posted: January 13th, 2010, 9:35am Report to Moderator
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I've begun reading this script and found it to be very tight and an easy read.  Good job on that.  But I'm confused about one thing.  I noticed your not including an extra space between the last action description and the next scene heading.
Isn't that an industry standard?

EXT. MANSION - DAY

If the grass is always greener on the other side, then this
is the other side. A beautifully manicured garden sweeps up
to a spectacular stone edifice and sign, PLACE DE RA-ZON.

CHERUB "CHERRY" CHAMBERS and still smokin' hot, enters
the circular driveway and parks. As she leaves the car she's
flooded by the beauty and immensity of the place.

EXTRA SPACE HERE ???????????? TRUE OR FALSE?

INT. FOYER
A lush entryway as you'd expect. The doorbell rings with
fanfare.

Thanks to anybody who can clear this up for me.


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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 13th, 2010, 11:13am Report to Moderator
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What if the Hokey Pokey, IS what it's all about?

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Quoted from screenrider
I've begun reading this script and found it to be very tight and an easy read.  Good job on that.  But I'm confused about one thing.  I noticed your not including an extra space between the last action description and the next scene heading.
Isn't that an industry standard?

EXT. MANSION - DAY

If the grass is always greener on the other side, then this
is the other side. A beautifully manicured garden sweeps up
to a spectacular stone edifice and sign, PLACE DE RA-ZON.

CHERUB "CHERRY" CHAMBERS and still smokin' hot, enters
the circular driveway and parks. As she leaves the car she's
flooded by the beauty and immensity of the place.

EXTRA SPACE HERE ???????????? TRUE OR FALSE?

INT. FOYER
A lush entryway as you'd expect. The doorbell rings with
fanfare.

Thanks to anybody who can clear this up for me.




I use Final Draft and it naturally formats; however, when we worked through some of the clean up, we cycled it around and the file types were changed to txt etc...

It might have been messed up due to that.

Sandra



A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.
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screenrider
Posted: January 13th, 2010, 12:33pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Sandra Elstree.


It might have been messed up due to that.

Sandra




It "might have" been messed up.

...No, it's "definitely" messed up.   I'm not trying to make waves but considering that Thief was written by some of SS's top screenwriters, it suprises me that you all would see this major formatting error as even being close to acceptable.
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: January 13th, 2010, 12:36pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from screenrider




It "might have" been messed up.

...No, it's "definitely" messed up.   I'm not trying to make waves but considering that Thief was written by some of SS's top screenwriters, it suprises me that you all would see this major formatting error as even being close to acceptable.




Fucking hell mate, it's a script, not a life saving operation.
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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 13th, 2010, 12:46pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from screenrider




It "might have" been messed up.

...No, it's "definitely" messed up.   I'm not trying to make waves but considering that Thief was written by some of SS's top screenwriters, it suprises me that you all would see this major formatting error as even being close to acceptable.


Wow. I apologize for being human. I'll write that one into The Magic of Letters most certainly. You have just given me an amazing idea!!!  

Sandra



A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.
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screenrider
Posted: January 13th, 2010, 1:07pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Scar Tissue Films



Fucking hello mate, it's a script, not a life saving operation.


Yeah okay...and this is a "screenwriting website, not the Red Cross.  Don't get me wrong, as I said before the writing is good but the formatting is obviously off-kilter.  I asked a simple question, pointed out an error, and now I'm getting flack for it.  
Go figure.  



Revision History (2 edits; 1 reasons shown)
screenrider  -  January 13th, 2010, 4:53pm
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mcornetto
Posted: January 13th, 2010, 5:25pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from screenrider

It "might have" been messed up.

...No, it's "definitely" messed up.   I'm not trying to make waves but considering that Thief was written by some of SS's top screenwriters, it suprises me that you all would see this major formatting error as even being close to acceptable.


This probably had a lot to do with the import of text files into Final Draft.  None of us did notice it but that was probably because we had other issues on our minds like were all the characters names consistent or did FD import the action into dialogue - things that would have really affected the read.  Thanks for pointing it out and we'll be sure to correct it in the next draft.  
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James McClung
Posted: January 13th, 2010, 5:30pm Report to Moderator
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Hey guys,

I skimmed over the Thief threads a few times but only had a vague idea of what you guys were really doing. I didn’t think I’d see an honest to God script show up anytime soon.

Anyway, you guys have obviously been working hard on this for a long time and it shows. Not just in the writing but the actual universe. Everything feels like real life. A lot of people strive for this kind of realism in their scripts and some find success on some level but this is exceptional. I gather this is because everyone was responsible for different characters so when the characters interact, it’s essentially different writers interacting as well. This is the most successful element of the script but, ironically, also the most hurtful.

The story, that is, the reality TV show, the missing ring, the RV, etc. It’s staged. I don’t mean that in a bad way. I mean that part of the script is very obviously the movie world. The character interactions are the reality and this is what made the script something of a challenge for me. It reminded me too much of the worst of high school. An endless shit show of drama and bullshit.

For the most part, this is what the script felt like to me. It was extremely well written and the characters were all well-developed but I didn’t care about many of them. I hated a good handful. They were all either drama queens or douchebags and phony to boot. Many of them didn’t feel like old friends at all yet they were supposed to be so all the “I love you’s” felt like dribble to me as did the ending. I totally appreciate the whole “you-can’t-always-get-what-you-want-in-life-but-sometimes-you-can-still-get-something-good” angle (does that make sense?). After all, it’s much more true to life. But many of the characters treat each other so terribly prior to the conclusion that it just fell flat for me.

The only characters I cared about were Darnell and Francesca. I suppose Cherry was alright as well. After a certain point in the script (which I won’t mention to avoid major spoilers), one of them dropped off my good list (I’m sure you can figure out which one). Towards the end, Jimmy comes off and is referred to as a peacemaker. He seems on the level then but earlier on, not so much. Once again, all the characters were well written but as far as sympathy goes... they didn’t have mine. Johnny especially was too much of a shit show for me, which is too bad because his plight is an extremely sympathetic one.

So what can I say? I feel really bad having to put this one down. You guys have been working so long on it, it’s practically review proof. But everyone here knows that honesty is what counts in the end. Personally, this felt like a sharper, more interesting and more realistic version of Degrassi... but still Degrassi. I’ll let you guys take that as you will.

I won’t leave this review without mentioning things I liked. As I’ve already said... well written. But aside from that, I liked Darnell’s character a lot. One of the only realistic party animals I’ve read or seen in any script/movie and made for a lot of fun. Roddy in makeup was funny, especially when he jumps in the pool and it starts to run. I liked the paintball game. Although this wasn’t a crowd I felt like I wanted to be with, the twists were pretty sharp and really upped the tension and at the end of it all, it seemed like a pretty eventful night. And finally, I thought the dialogue was superb. Very realistic and completely non-stereotypical as far as the characters were concerned.

Some notes...

pg. 36 - “Darnell opens his eyes and stares at Cherry.” Action, not dialogue.

pg. 47 - BRAD should be in V.O., not O.S.

- Hold-cold therapy is exactly that: hot then cold. The reverse, I can’t imagine, would sober anybody up. I can say from experience that hot tubs make intoxication worse once the person gets out of the hot water.

- Why would Johnny come out of hiding with his pants down? That is to say, what made him think it’d be a good idea?

pg. 82 - "AIDS,” not “AIDs.”

pg. 95 - "She gives him a kiss.” Action, not dialogue.

pg. 110 - "Pointing the [what?] with the key...”

At the end of the day, I think you guys totally accomplished what you set out to do... it just wasn’t my cup of tea.


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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 13th, 2010, 6:00pm Report to Moderator
Of The Ancients


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Quoted from James McClung

Anyway, you guys have obviously been working hard on this for a long time and it shows. Not just in the writing but the actual universe. Everything feels like real life. A lot of people strive for this kind of realism in their scripts and some find success on some level but this is exceptional.


James, I can tell you that it felt completely real to me and when it ended, I actually felt lonely and sad.


Quoted from James McClung

I gather this is because everyone was responsible for different characters so when the characters interact, it’s essentially different writers interacting as well. This is the most successful element of the script but, ironically, also the most hurtful.


I think that balancing character and story is a very difficult task and there are so many precarious tightropes we need to learn to walk in that regard.


Quoted from James McClung
The story, that is, the reality TV show, the missing ring, the RV, etc. It’s staged. I don’t mean that in a bad way. I mean that part of the script is very obviously the movie world. The character interactions are the reality and this is what made the script something of a challenge for me. It reminded me too much of the worst of high school. An endless shit show of drama and bullshit.


That is completely correct. This group is nothing but a bunch of liars and thieves. Gabriel and Jeana, the worst of the bunch. Complete instigators and so screwed up that half the time they don't know whether they're acting or actually being themselves.


Quoted from James McClung
For the most part, this is what the script felt like to me. It was extremely well written and the characters were all well-developed but I didn’t care about many of them. I hated a good handful. They were all either drama queens or douchebags and phony to boot. Many of them didn’t feel like old friends at all yet they were supposed to be so all the “I love you’s” felt like dribble to me as did the ending. I totally appreciate the whole “you-can’t-always-get-what-you-want-in-life-but-sometimes-you-can-still-get-something-good” angle (does that make sense?). After all, it’s much more true to life. But many of the characters treat each other so terribly prior to the conclusion that it just fell flat for me.


I'm actually glad that you didn't like or have sympathy for most of the characters. Jeana's character was written up to be a bitch, but in reality, I had believed that both she and Gabriel were always trying to bring the best out in people by causing them to react to their situations and be proactive. This is why Gabriel went down on Frances, when he was still a man. Not because Gabriel himself was bi-sexual, but because he wanted to bring Frances out of himself and accept who he was.

Cherry was always overly sympathetic, whereas Jeana was the opposite. She believes that strength of character comes from difficulties and not by being coddled by over-sympathetic numbskulls.


Quoted from James McClung
The only characters I cared about were Darnell and Francesca. I suppose Cherry was alright as well. After a certain point in the script (which I won’t mention to avoid major spoilers), one of them dropped off my good list (I’m sure you can figure out which one). Towards the end, Jimmy comes off and is referred to as a peacemaker. He seems on the level then but earlier on, not so much. Once again, all the characters were well written but as far as sympathy goes... they didn’t have mine. Johnny especially was too much of a shit show for me, which is too bad because his plight is an extremely sympathetic one.


This is actually good news for me because that's what I had intended; however, if we need to make these characters more likable, then we need to show their positive aspects and I can assure you, they do have positive aspects. We should discuss that in the future.

Thank you so very much for the review, James.

I'll definitely be giving your comments lots of thought. Logan or no Logan.  

Sandra




A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.
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mcornetto
Posted: January 13th, 2010, 6:25pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from James McClung
Hey guys,

I skimmed over the Thief threads a few times but only had a vague idea of what you guys were really doing. I didn’t think I’d see an honest to God script show up anytime soon.



Anyway, you guys have obviously been working hard on this for a long time and it shows. Not just in the writing but the actual universe. Everything feels like real life. A lot of people strive for this kind of realism in their scripts and some find success on some level but this is exceptional. I gather this is because everyone was responsible for different characters so when the characters interact, it’s essentially different writers interacting as well. This is the most successful element of the script but, ironically, also the most hurtful.

Each person brought a character to the table and then each of those characters were recrafted by each author - the result was we all knew the characters enough to manipulate their lives.  And I glad that shows.


Many of them didn’t feel like old friends at all yet they were supposed to be so all the “I love you’s” felt like dribble to me as did the ending.

This is really interesting because this is one of the issues we had up front that we had to live with because it was never going to get resolved.   Exactly why are these people friends.   It actually all boils down to one summer they spent together and a party at Roddy's.   This is never discussed in the script but if you read the character bios you will see it.  And of course some of them are more of friends than others.  


The only characters I cared about were Darnell and Francesca. I suppose Cherry was alright as well. After a certain point in the script (which I won’t mention to avoid major spoilers), one of them dropped off my good list (I’m sure you can figure out which one). Towards the end, Jimmy comes off and is referred to as a peacemaker. He seems on the level then but earlier on, not so much. Once again, all the characters were well written but as far as sympathy goes... they didn’t have mine. Johnny especially was too much of a shit show for me, which is too bad because his plight is an extremely sympathetic one.

Personally, if looking at a classical structure, I think Johnny is the fool in this situation or Gilligan.  Jimmy is the Professor.  Gabriel and Jeanna are Mr and Mrs Howell.  Francesca is Ginger.  Cherry is Mary Anne.  And Burner is the Skipper - that leaves Darnell but he can be the special guest star.

Anyway, Jimmy is meant to be suspicious.   If you were to read the bios a lot of the characters think he's a pederast.
    

So what can I say? I feel really bad having to put this one down. You guys have been working so long on it, it’s practically review proof. But everyone here knows that honesty is what counts in the end. Personally, this felt like a sharper, more interesting and more realistic version of Degrassi... but still Degrassi. I’ll let you guys take that as you will.


No that was cool.  Thanks for reading and giving feedback.  There's no doubt it needs work to make it work well but at this point we aren't going to get any further with it without feedback.


I won’t leave this review without mentioning things I liked. As I’ve already said... well written. But aside from that, I liked Darnell’s character a lot. One of the only realistic party animals I’ve read or seen in any script/movie and made for a lot of fun. Roddy in makeup was funny, especially when he jumps in the pool and it starts to run. I liked the paintball game. Although this wasn’t a crowd I felt like I wanted to be with, the twists were pretty sharp and really upped the tension and at the end of it all, it seemed like a pretty eventful night. And finally, I thought the dialogue was superb. Very realistic and completely non-stereotypical as far as the characters were concerned.

Some notes...

Thanks for the technical notes. Importing caused some of the actions to end up in dialogue and we tried to catch them all but obviously missed some.



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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 13th, 2010, 7:23pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from mcornetto


Personally, if looking at a classical structure, I think Johnny is the fool in this situation or Gilligan.  Jimmy is the Professor.  Gabriel and Jeanna are Mr and Mrs Howell.  Francesca is Ginger.  Cherry is Mary Anne.  And Burner is the Skipper - that leaves Darnell but he can be the special guest star.



I enjoyed reading your take on the characters. I think the question of a kind of superficiality between Jeana and Gabriel and the other characters definitely exists. They seem to be so caught up with themselves that they fail to acknowledge the others much of the time.

Mr. and Mrs. Howell were much more harmless I think. I've always seen Gabriel and Jeana as antagonists, indeed, the whole lot of them I think are, but Gabriel and Jeana are the worst.

If Jimmy is The Professor, I think he's got competition from Frances/Francesca. I think that Jimmy is more of a psychologist and Frances is more The Professor. These two are definitely the brains of the bunch.

I think Darnell definitely has brains too, but he's so wasted all of the time that he hardly uses them. Maybe he might find a way yet.

Sandra



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mcornetto
Posted: January 13th, 2010, 7:32pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Sandra Elstree.


I enjoyed reading your take on the characters. I think the question of a kind of superficiality between Jeana and Gabriel and the other characters definitely exists. They seem to be so caught up with themselves that they fail to acknowledge the others much of the time.

Mr. and Mrs. Howell were much more harmless I think. I've always seen Gabriel and Jeana as antagonists, indeed, the whole lot of them I think are, but Gabriel and Jeana are the worst.


Mr. and Mrs. Howell were always scheming and conniving and trying to get everyone to do their bidding.  They were also better than everyone else.  I see these qualities in Jeana and Gabriel which would be La Signora and Pantalone in Commedia.


If Jimmy is The Professor, I think he's got competition from Frances. I think that Jimmy is more of a psychologist and Frances is more The Professor. These two are definitely the brains of the bunch.

Now wait a minute.  Are you saying Ginger didn't have brains?   She was probably one of the smartest of the bunch.  I think she is based on Columbina in Commedia.


I think Darnell definitely has brains too, but he's so wasted all of the time that he hardly uses them. Maybe he might find a way yet.

Sandra


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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 13th, 2010, 9:26pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from mcornetto


Now wait a minute.  Are you saying Ginger didn't have brains?   She was probably one of the smartest of the bunch.  I think she is based on Columbina in Commedia.



In Thief, most definitely Francesca and Jimmy are more the brainy sorts.

In Gilligan's island, I never saw Ginger as a brainy sort of individual, but rather I saw her portrayed as a beauty who cared a lot about presentation.

Perhaps I never noticed the brains so much because her beauty overshadowed it.

Sandra





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greg
Posted: January 13th, 2010, 11:38pm Report to Moderator
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Hi Michael, Sandra, Thomas, and Gary,

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this didn't work for me.  Like at all.  The gift and the curse of having multiple writers is that it brings in multiple talents and insights, but in this case, the script's flow felt very divided to me, so much so that I got frustrated reading at certain parts, which I'll explain.  I commend you guys for being able to collaborate on something like this from four corners of the earth, but IMO it needs retooling.

The first 40 pages or so I felt worked.  While the conflict was slow to show itself, I felt it was an interesting story brewing, realistic, nice style, and, likewise, I anticipated a big payoff.  There's a lot of characters to keep track of, but it was done with ease.  Everyone had their different personalities which made them easy to follow.  However, after page 40 it seemed everything just changed.  There was a 20 page block in there where it seemed like nothing happened.  At all.  I don't get the point of the RV.  A big RV shows up outside with Jeana dressed as a Muslim to generate a reaction?  What did I miss?  When the RV showed up it felt like the story just stopped and everyone was making observations about nothing.  Through the 50s and into page 63 I felt very frustrated as I had no idea what was going on.

While I feel the characters started out well, they took a pretty steep nosedive as the story went on.  The problem is that these people are 28, right?  It's a high school reunion but it seemed as if they had never graduated.  Basically it didn't seem like anything had changed with these people between the 10 years that they went without seeing each other.  Darnell is still a druggie loser, Jimmy's still Jimmy, and Cherry still gets around.  In the span of 24 hours she was all over Jimmy, turned Johnny's proposal down, 5 minutes later made out with Roddy and wound up leaving with him.  Roddy lost his sobriety in the blink of an eye.  Darnell was horribly annoying and the drug humor didn't work.  At times it was just hard to believe that these people had grown up at all.  Nothing had changed from high school.  The best characters were, ironically, the ones that everyone thought were weird in Francesca and Johnny.  I felt they were the most rounded, realistic, and brought the most to the table, so kudos on them.  Everyone else, though, became thin on personality and content as the story went on.  I'm not sure there's enough backstory on these people.  What were most of these people like in high school?  We know a little bit about Frances, but what about Gabe?  He's bi(I think. Read notes), but what else?  I just didn't feel like anybody was any different now than they were 10 years ago and they didn't feel any different at the end than they did in the beginning of the story.

As I said up front, the first 40 pages I felt were okay despite the fact that we don't really know what conflict is going to unfold and who's the good guy or the bad guy.  When everything did unfold I felt let down.  Johnny getting his engagement ring to Cherry stolen is good.  Could have been a series of giant conflicts built on top of that.  But there wasn't.  I think he got it back within 20 pages and that was the end of that issue.  The RV, again, I didn't really get.  Then the big twist of Gabriel trying to get footage for a reality show.  Again, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it didn't work for me.  First and foremost, there's no way he had enough footage for a 10 show series.  Second, there's not enough conflict to make for an interesting reality series anyway.  Yeah, there's some making out, some people get shot with paintball guns, and someone is dressed up like a Muslim, but for a reality show?  It'll make a 30 minute special, but a series?  I don't see Gabriel's aspirations paying off.

I'm not going to say that this story doesn't work at all; I think any story can work if it's tooled up enough.  But as of right now I struggled mightily to get through this.  Having multiple conflicts going on in this house is a fine idea, but they need more beef to them and the payoff needs to be more developed.  Discovering that this was all for a reality show wasn't out of left field, but rather it was out of the street behind the ballpark.  It wasn't a shocker, it just made me go...what...

There's also a few typos throughout and formatting gaffes(in the notes).

So, again, I hate to deliver bad news, but this didn't work for me at all.  After 40 pages I felt the story whirlwinded all over the place and there wasn't enough going on to really care about what the outcomes were.  I once more commend you on collaborating on a feature screenplay, so I'm sure putting your minds together can brew up something much improved because I know you're all good at what you do.  I hope some of my comments come in handy.  If you have any questions, please feel free to let me know.

-Notes-

*Great opening description haha
*12 - wait...so Francesca WAS Frances, right? Yeah, when he/she goes "Shh...it" it says Francesca, so I got a little confused as to who's in that scene.  
*27 - Gabe's bi, right?
*27 - I'm not really feeling the drug gags at this point
*27 - Can't really buy Roddy's sudden decision to break his sobriety
*31 - Nice Seinfeld reference!
*36 - Cherry: For being the best...plus some description that shouldn't be there
*46 - Jean should be Jeana
*50 - At this point I really am not sure where this is going and the past 5 pages or so there's been a lot of stuff going on that isn't making much sense to me. Stay tuned...
*63 - I'm frustrated at this point.  What's going on here?  I don't get the big deal with the RV and right now it's just people sitting around making little observations.  I really don't feel the story moving along at this point.  Stay tuned...
*65 - Johnny: "I wouldn't marry you if you were the last man on earth!" Unless Johnny is bi, which there's no indication of up to this point, this seems very strange and out of place.
*84 - Cherry gets around, doesn't she?
*85 - There really needs to be more conflict and drama if they're wanting to produce 10 shows

-Greg


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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 13th, 2010, 11:49pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from greg
Hi Michael, Sandra, Thomas, and Gary,

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this didn't work for me.  Like at all.  The gift and the curse of having multiple writers is that it brings in multiple talents and insights, but in this case, the script's flow felt very divided to me, so much so that I got frustrated reading at certain parts, which I'll explain.  I commend you guys for being able to collaborate on something like this from four corners of the earth, but IMO it needs retooling.



I think so too.

Greg, it's really getting late here right now and I've got appointments I need to keep tomorrow, but I'll try and respond better tomorrow.

Thank you so much for taking your time,

Sandra



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mcornetto
Posted: January 14th, 2010, 12:08am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from greg
Hi Michael, Sandra, Thomas, and Gary,

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this didn't work for me.  Like at all.  The gift and the curse of having multiple writers is that it brings in multiple talents and insights, but in this case, the script's flow felt very divided to me, so much so that I got frustrated reading at certain parts, which I'll explain.  I commend you guys for being able to collaborate on something like this from four corners of the earth, but IMO it needs retooling.

What makes you think what you said is bad news?  Honestly, we've been saying all along that we know it needs work - you aren't really telling us anything new here - however being that this is a multi-person script and unless we get some feedback on what doesn't work for people, no one and I mean no one is going to to take kindly to removing their touches from it.

The first 40 pages or so I felt worked.  While the conflict was slow to show itself, I felt it was an interesting story brewing, realistic, nice style, and, likewise, I anticipated a big payoff.  There's a lot of characters to keep track of, but it was done with ease.  Everyone had their different personalities which made them easy to follow.  However, after page 40 it seemed everything just changed.  There was a 20 page block in there where it seemed like nothing happened.  At all.  I don't get the point of the RV.  A big RV shows up outside with Jeana dressed as a Muslim to generate a reaction?  What did I miss?  When the RV showed up it felt like the story just stopped and everyone was making observations about nothing.  Through the 50s and into page 63 I felt very frustrated as I had no idea what was going on.

Ok. The RV.  Someone introduced it at that point and we went with it.   The point is, or at least the point we were trying to make was that Jeanna was attempting to create a more dramatic environment for the show.  That isn't what the RV was about when it was introduced but that's what it became about.  You don't even what to go where we discuss what it was about to begin with, so don't ask.


While I feel the characters started out well, they took a pretty steep nosedive as the story went on.  The problem is that these people are 28, right?  It's a high school reunion but it seemed as if they had never graduated.  Basically it didn't seem like anything had changed with these people between the 10 years that they went without seeing each other.  Darnell is still a druggie loser, Jimmy's still Jimmy, and Cherry still gets around.  In the span of 24 hours she was all over Jimmy, turned Johnny's proposal down, 5 minutes later made out with Roddy and wound up leaving with him.  Roddy lost his sobriety in the blink of an eye.  Darnell was horribly annoying and the drug humor didn't work.  At times it was just hard to believe that these people had grown up at all.  Nothing had changed from high school.  The best characters were, ironically, the ones that everyone thought were weird in Francesca and Johnny.  I felt they were the most rounded, realistic, and brought the most to the table, so kudos on them.  Everyone else, though, became thin on personality and content as the story went on.  I'm not sure there's enough backstory on these people.  What were most of these people like in high school?  We know a little bit about Frances, but what about Gabe?  He's bi(I think. Read notes), but what else?  I just didn't feel like anybody was any different now than they were 10 years ago and they didn't feel any different at the end than they did in the beginning of the story.

There's a lot of bio on the characters.  If you are interested see

http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-collaborate/m-1252589127/

There probably should be a bit more back story in the script, it's probably something we'll look at adding in the next draft.


As I said up front, the first 40 pages I felt were okay despite the fact that we don't really know what conflict is going to unfold and who's the good guy or the bad guy.  When everything did unfold I felt let down.  Johnny getting his engagement ring to Cherry stolen is good.  Could have been a series of giant conflicts built on top of that.  But there wasn't.  I think he got it back within 20 pages and that was the end of that issue.  The RV, again, I didn't really get.  Then the big twist of Gabriel trying to get footage for a reality show.  Again, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it didn't work for me.  First and foremost, there's no way he had enough footage for a 10 show series.  Second, there's not enough conflict to make for an interesting reality series anyway.  Yeah, there's some making out, some people get shot with paintball guns, and someone is dressed up like a Muslim, but for a reality show?  It'll make a 30 minute special, but a series?  I don't see Gabriel's aspirations paying off.

I'm not going to say that this story doesn't work at all; I think any story can work if it's tooled up enough.  But as of right now I struggled mightily to get through this.  Having multiple conflicts going on in this house is a fine idea, but they need more beef to them and the payoff needs to be more developed.  Discovering that this was all for a reality show wasn't out of left field, but rather it was out of the street behind the ballpark.  It wasn't a shocker, it just made me go...what...

Again, the show was added as we were developing the script.  And it came out of rewrites.  I believe that the intention of the show is that it's a one shot deal - not a series.  This isn't quite spelled out but it's probably something we will look at.

There's also a few typos throughout and formatting gaffes(in the notes).

-Notes-

Thanks for your technical notes and your feedback.

And just a quick question, you say a couple of times that the drug humour didn't work for you.  Why didn't it work?  Is there a reason?  




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Shelton
Posted: January 14th, 2010, 1:13am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from mcornetto


This probably had a lot to do with the import of text files into Final Draft.  None of us did notice it but that was probably because we had other issues on our minds like were all the characters names consistent or did FD import the action into dialogue - things that would have really affected the read.  Thanks for pointing it out and we'll be sure to correct it in the next draft.  


Save it, Michael.  I'm putting a black mark on ALL of your permanent records.

Maybe next time you'll remember to space six times before sluglines.

Tsk, Tsk.



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Grandma Bear
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Quoted from greg

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this didn't work for me.  Like at all.  The gift and the curse of having multiple writers is that it brings in multiple talents and insights, but in this case, the script's flow felt very divided to me, so much so that I got frustrated reading at certain parts, which I'll explain.  I commend you guys for being able to collaborate on something like this from four corners of the earth, but IMO it needs retooling.

I'm almost finished with this one. Got sidetracked by a documentary.  

I do agree with Greg here. It does feel like there were a few too many cooks in the kitchen. I'm wondering if each of you had a character to write or if you all added to everything. The reason I'm asking is because some of the characters didn't seem to stay true to themselves.


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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 14th, 2010, 1:44pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from greg


I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this didn't work for me.  Like at all.  



The only way to find out what works is to find out what doesn't work; so it's not bad news.


Quoted from greg
The first 40 pages or so I felt worked.  While the conflict was slow to show itself, I felt it was an interesting story brewing, realistic, nice style, and, likewise, I anticipated a big payoff.  There's a lot of characters to keep track of, but it was done with ease.  Everyone had their different personalities which made them easy to follow.  However, after page 40 it seemed everything just changed.  There was a 20 page block in there where it seemed like nothing happened.  At all.  I don't get the point of the RV.  A big RV shows up outside with Jeana dressed as a Muslim to generate a reaction?  What did I miss?  When the RV showed up it felt like the story just stopped and everyone was making observations about nothing.


I think that the observations about nothing comes from attempting to incorporate backstory that the reader knows nothing about. Although the back stories do exist, I don't think they exist on the pages of the script. They do exist in the bios, but there are things in the script that are a mystery otherwise. Like, although it's hinted at, I'm not sure that people are going to get Gabriel's serious financial state.

Perhaps it needs to be set up better that he's in trouble as a ship that's going down. This would increase the drama and tension that I feel this is lacking.

With regards to incorporating backstory, we only have a few ways of incorporating that.

1. Through flashback

2. Through dialogue

3. Through clever manipulations of present actions with dialogue

...That is to say, if we begin in the mansion and stay there.

If we begin earlier in time, "the way we were" style, then we could do it without a lot of flashbacks, however, that would change the principle with which this was conceived. To have this story existing almost solely inside the mansion.

A major flaw in the script, I see is the backstory that is missing on screen. As you pointed out, you felt it wasn't there and I see this too. It's there, but it's not there.

If we suddenly get a light and a sudden stroke of brilliance, we might be able to work this in very swiftly in the beginning without even using flashback. I have an idea right now and it's actually very entertaining to think about.  

So yes, this is a very good observation.


Quoted from greg
While I feel the characters started out well, they took a pretty steep nosedive as the story went on.  The problem is that these people are 28, right?  It's a high school reunion but it seemed as if they had never graduated.


This is correct. They haven't changed essentially. But Frances changed into a woman. I'd say that's a pretty big change!!!  

But seriously, couldn't we nail this more visually? I think we could most definitely.

Otherwise though, these people really are very much the same. Althouooo....

Someone might now need to wear glasses or some idiosyncratic tendency, latent though it was, developed in one of them to exacerbated proportions.

What they do now though isn't necessarily clear I don't think. Hence, this is why they're coming off as completely the same.

It would be fun to show them acting in their "grown roles", "out in public", but put them together, and they're completely the hopeless ones you've just witnessed.  

I think your comments there are completely correct and we need to look at how we can work with this in the future.


Quoted from greg
Darnell was horribly annoying and the drug humor didn't work.  At times it was just hard to believe that these people had grown up at all.  Nothing had changed from high school.  The best characters were, ironically, the ones that everyone thought were weird in Francesca and Johnny.


I'm sorry you didn't like Darnell. He and Roddy are two of my favorites when you put the two together. Especially when they're together. And then add Jimmy and it's another fun story that amps up again because the dynamics change I think as Roddy and Darnell bring Jimmy over to the dark side.


Quoted from greg
What were most of these people like in high school?


From the graduation flashback you can see that they were a wild bunch.


Quoted from greg
I just didn't feel like anybody was any different now than they were 10 years ago and they didn't feel any different at the end than they did in the beginning of the story.


Yes, you are correct. There wasn't a lot of change that happened. No dramatic character arcs where they go from one extreme to another.

Although, Johnny definitely changed. He went from not really caring a lot for Frances, the male, to loving Francesca the female. This is a very dramatic change that he went through.

Thank you so much for your comments. It's very much appreciated.  

Sandra










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greg
Posted: January 14th, 2010, 2:07pm Report to Moderator
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Hi Michael and Sandra,


Quoted from mcornetto
...however being that this is a multi-person script and unless we get some feedback on what doesn't work for people, no one and I mean no one is going to to take kindly to removing their touches from it.


Oh, I know.  Let me explain what I meant: it's the flow of the story that feels divided, meaning you can tell when one author's section ended and another's began.  Because of that, there's multiple personalities writing here and at times it feels all over the place.  Of course I wouldn't suggest removing people.  I think maybe just more revisions focused on one consistent tone could cure this problem.  Or maybe designate one writer to reword the other sections so it's just one voice speaking for the writing of four people.  Is that even possible?  I dunno.  I might be talking out of my ass with that one haha.


Quoted from mcornetto
Ok. The RV.  Someone introduced it at that point and we went with it.   The point is, or at least the point we were trying to make was that Jeanna was attempting to create a more dramatic environment for the show.  That isn't what the RV was about when it was introduced but that's what it became about.


Creating a more dramatic environment for the show is a good touch, but the whole RV deal just seemed very strange for this piece.  


Quoted from mcornetto
And just a quick question, you say a couple of times that the drug humour didn't work for you.  Why didn't it work?  Is there a reason?


Part of it is personal preference.  I've never found drug humor amusing mostly because it's just people acting funny rather than being funny, which is what I felt Darnell and Roddy were doing.  Again, part of it is personal preference so I'd see what others think about it.


Quoted from Sandra E.
With regards to incorporating backstory, we only have a few ways of incorporating that.

1. Through flashback

2. Through dialogue

3. Through clever manipulations of present actions with dialogue


I highlighted dialogue because I thought this would be more of a talkie piece when I started reading, and I think when incorporating backstory, that's the way to go.  Have the characters talk about it.


Quoted from Sandra Elstree.
From the graduation flashback you can see that they were a wild bunch.


This goes hand-in-hand with my desire for backstory.  The flashback shows them briefly in high school, but I'm talking about personality-wise what were they like so we can compare them now to how they were back then.  Of course, if nothing's changed then I guess there really doesn't need to be any revelation.


Quoted from Sandra Elstree.
Although, Johnny definitely changed. He went from not really caring a lot for Frances, the male, to loving Francesca the female. This is a very dramatic change that he went through.


Indeed, and I really enjoyed his and her characters.  I felt those two had a backstory but it didn't even need to be directly told straight to your face.  It was more indirect, but I felt that I gathered a lot of information about them.

-Greg



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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 14th, 2010, 2:21pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from greg
Hi Michael and Sandra,

Part of it is personal preference.  I've never found drug humor amusing mostly because it's just people acting funny rather than being funny, which is what I felt Darnell and Roddy were doing.  Again, part of it is personal preference so I'd see what others think about it.



I'm not big on drug humor either, I feel more passionate about the characters of Darnell and Roddy though and not their actual doing of drugs.

If the drugs are overshadowing their characters, we need to take a look at that and work with it.


Quoted from greg
I highlighted dialogue because I thought this would be more of a talkie piece when I started reading, and I think when incorporating backstory, that's the way to go.  Have the characters talk about it.


I was thinking at one stage in the writing, that they should all be sitting down and having a

Heart to Heart

This, in my mind would have been a sincere expression of

What they got out of life

vs

What they have received from life thus far

Now, consider this:

If the characters are spilling their guts out, and it's unknown to them that they're on camera, it's a serious betrayal of trust.

I'm not sure. This would definitely change the entire tone of this particular version.

It would go from the whacky kind of entertainment piece that it is to a more seriously toned piece I think.

It could be done, I think it could be a short serious segment, but there would need to be a "bounce back", otherwise people are going to start getting all depressed and these characters are too spirited to stay down for too long anyways I think.

Thanks, Greg. I think you've provided some actually very useful insight.

Sandra




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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 16th, 2010, 9:46pm Report to Moderator
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Thank you so much, Pia. I really appreciate your review.

I completely agree that everything takes way too long to get going.

It does. Plain and simple.

Wave off, fix it and move on!

When you commented:

Also, the scenes went from people laughing in one scene only to jump to the next scene where someone would be upset or mad or whatever. Too much of an emotional roller coaster IMO for an audience stay follow.

**

I started thinking:

I take the blame  for this.

This is my writing. I do this all the time; so blame me and not Michael, Gary or Tommy for this.

This is something I do almost in a purposeful way. Although I have works that are "in the works"   where I work to keep a consistent tone, I do seriously work with the emotions at opposite angles.

Although I'm not sure, it might have happened by accident in this script, but I do do that; so don't blame the men; blame me.

*

Anyway, I'm sorry I couldn't be more positive here. I know you're all pretty darn good but I think in this case there was too much of a good thing and it just left me feeling less good.

*

Thanks Pia, We might have written the absolutely worst script in the history of the internet. Who knows?

But I had so much fun writing it and I feel the characters and I have these memories that are real and so it's weird, but I think:

"Yay Thief"

Whatever vibe we had going, if we can keep it going, it's a good thing.

Thank you and God bless,

Sandra




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mcornetto
Posted: January 16th, 2010, 9:54pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Grandma Bear
Hey guys. Big congrats on managing to collaborating on a feature. I've tried this too a few times, but it's very hard to make it work IMHO. I never read the Thief thread, but saw it on the portal page for the longest time. To be honest, I never realized you actually managed to write something together. I applaud you for that!

Thanks.


When it comes to the script itself however, I have to be honest and tell you it didn't really work for me.  I see that you were 8 people involved in this…and it feels like it. What I mean is that it's seems there are way too many cooks in this kitchen. It has a very jumbled and unfocused feel.

Better or worse than the Killer scripts?

There's a simple story here. Gabriel needs money and decides to film his highschool friends in order to make a reality show. That's a good idea, but you fail in your telling of the story.

This is true except that isn't really supposed to be the story and was only tacked on a third of the way through the writing.  The story is supposed to be about the ring.  I know it isn't exactly but not for want of trying.

First off, I don't think the title fits the story. It's not about a thief or being a thief. It's about Gabriel making a reality show unknown to his "friends" because he needs money. Sure there's some stealing going on, but it's not really a big part of the story.

Like I said the title is from the exercise and it's what the story should be about.   I'm all for another title but not until there's another draft.  

Second, there are too many characters. Who's the protag and who's the antag? VERY late in the script I figured Gabriel is the antag and the others an ensemble protag? If so, it comes wayyyyy tooooo late. Throughout this thing, I was confused as what I was supposed to feel about anyone.

I always considered this an ark movie there's no one protag and antag, instead there are different stories that twine together around a single event.  


Third, the set up also takes wayyyyy toooo long. 20+ pages of people just arriving? Sorry, but that doesn't work. You need something interesting to happen right away. Why not have the very first image being the ring in someone's hand. Set the story up that it's about thievery of this ring…

Good suggestion. Johnny calling about being later while holding the ring is a very good way to cut into the script.

Fourth, the characters didn't really work for me either. Why? They seemed to not stay true to their character. They start out one way, but end up a different way, but!!! not through experience, story conflict or emotional challenges. They just seem to change. I'm sure one of you will let me know that so and so changed due to this or that. The problem is that it doesn't feel natural or even believable. Roddy for example is the biggest issue as far as this goes to me.

How is Roddy an example of this?

In regards to the characters, I think you have too many of them for us to really care about or connect with. The characters that I cared most about would be Darnell and maybe Roddy and Francesca. Jimmy and Johnny were throwaways IMHO. I couldn't care less about them.

Good stuff to know.  Interesting that a number of people cared about Darnell.

The writing itself felt jumbled. Again, like too many cooks in this SS kitchen. Lots of mistakes. Slugs were weird. No CONTINUOUS, DAY nor NIGHTS. And some other issues like that that I know you all know better about so I'm leaving that for now.

Again.  More or less than the Killer scripts?

Fifth, again, IMHO, there were too many scenes in this. Too many jumps from scene to scene. One second they're in here and then they're there and then they're there. All without a STORY REASON.

Can you give an example of this?


Also, the scenes went from people laughing in one scene only to jump to the next scene where someone would be upset or mad or whatever. Too much of an emotional roller coaster IMO for an audience stay follow.


Good thing to keep an eye out for.  There should be emotional follow through.


Sixth, the RV, step dad muslim part went nowhere…

I'm sure it goes somewhere, somewhere.

Anyway, I'm sorry I couldn't be more positive here. I know you're all pretty darn good but I think in this case there was too much of a good thing and it just left me feeling less good.

If anyone have any questions, feel free to ask. I want to be helpful if I can. I do like all of you!!

Thanks for reading and for your feedback.  It was quite helpful.  



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mcornetto
Posted: January 16th, 2010, 10:04pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Sandra Elstree.

Thanks Pia, We might have written the absolutely worst script in the history of the internet. Who knows?


If Sandra, Gary, and Tommy expected a warm reception for this and for everyone to love it off the bat then I'm sorry because I should have set their expectations more accurately.  Because, with the exception of a few comments, this is pretty much the reception I anticipated.

It's not the worse script in the history of the internet.  It's a first draft of a collaborative script and as far as a first draft of a collaborative script goes - at least the ones I've seen - this is well above average.  It's not like we are running out to pimp it in this state - we are asking for much needed feedback - and we've been getting some useful comment, I hope it continues.  
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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 16th, 2010, 10:26pm Report to Moderator
Of The Ancients


What if the Hokey Pokey, IS what it's all about?

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When we come to disabling our current "Thief" script and tearing it apart for the better, I think we need to focus on the "tie downs".

Specifically, the ones we want to focus on within this particular script.

The fact that we've generated a whole lot of material is a really wonderful thing.

We don't need to use it all in the script, obviously, but we can build our "Thief" encyclopedia and we can sync it up and all be on the same page.

*Note

If I had to pick a favorite character, it would definitely be Darnell.

The character of Jeana-Marie, I had written for people to dislike.

And so if they hate her, then I'm happy.

I will be more happy however if they learn that she was doing things for the good and learn to love her.

I also love the Roddy characer. I think we can do more with him.

It might be interesting to bring Cherry, Jeana and Frances together in dialogue. I think these girls/women have a special history and understanding of the boys/men that is expressly from their point of view and would lend a lot to the movie.

Yes. I really do think we should consider this.

I remember mentioning to Gary during the preliminaries, the idea of "men"/"women" scenarios, but once we were working, we forgot about it. Or I forgot about it.

If we consider the Male/Female dynamics, and incorporate them, I think it would round Thief out.

Right now, I feel that, (more than likely because we've got 3 male writers and only 1 female) we're deficient in the female energy.

Do you kinda get what I'm saying?

I've went along, but it's been hard.

We ladies, we're so ... to be without the right word, "quirky".

I love men. I grew up with three older brothers and there's nothing better in my opinion, but now we're writing for "Them". and so I guess we need to try and keep things even.

Sandra








A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.
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grademan
Posted: January 21st, 2010, 2:49pm Report to Moderator
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Hey guys!

First, thanks for the reads.

Second, thanks for the undiluted comments regarding the script.

Third, Michael helped a few scriptwriters learn to write together on a full length
script. I know I experienced a thrill as we worked on this as we saw each other get better and wrestle with what we thought the story was. I am convinced there is a story here worth telling.

Four, the script must stand on its own. Doesn’t matter what we were doing behind the scenes.

Five, the writers secretly hoped that maybe lightening had somehow made its way into our script (come on, we all hope our first draft doesn’t need a rewrite… am I right?) but we knew that what all writers know:  There is no good writing, only good rewriting. So we can take shredding. I am sure the writers would not be able to unite to fix this script until we saw how you, the readers, reacted to the first draft. We are, after all, competitors not collaborators by birth.

Six, some common points have been noted by many of the reviewers. I’ll rephrase them as questions here:

How can we make the plot clearer, more compelling?

How can we make the characters more there, more compelling?

These two questions are what all the points boil down to one way or another.

Our solution will be to address the points like any writer. Break it down, build it back up. Then post it again. It’ll be interesting to see if we can do this. LET THE REWRITE BEGIN!

If you get the chance to work on an SS collaboration project, give it a try. Tommy, Sandra and I learned a lot by doing and then reading your comments.

Michael, we thank you for your help. Much respect sir.

Gary



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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 21st, 2010, 3:25pm Report to Moderator
Of The Ancients


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Quoted from grademan
Hey guys!

First, thanks for the reads.

Second, thanks for the undiluted comments regarding the script.

Third, Michael helped a few scriptwriters learn to write together on a full length
script. I know I experienced a thrill as we worked on this as we saw each other get better and wrestle with what we thought the story was. I am convinced there is a story here worth telling.

Four, the script must stand on its own. Doesn’t matter what we were doing behind the scenes.

Five, the writers secretly hoped that maybe lightening had somehow made its way into our script (come on, we all hope our first draft doesn’t need a rewrite… am I right?) but we knew that what all writers know:  There is no good writing, only good rewriting. So we can take shredding. I am sure the writers would not be able to unite to fix this script until we saw how you, the readers, reacted to the first draft. We are, after all, competitors not collaborators by birth.

Six, some common points have been noted by many of the reviewers. I’ll rephrase them as questions here:

How can we make the plot clearer, more compelling?

How can we make the characters more there, more compelling?

These two questions are what all the points boil down to one way or another.

Our solution will be to address the points like any writer. Break it down, build it back up. Then post it again. It’ll be interesting to see if we can do this. LET THE REWRITE BEGIN!

If you get the chance to work on an SS collaboration project, give it a try. Tommy, Sandra and I learned a lot by doing and then reading your comments.

Michael, we thank you for your help. Much respect sir.

Gary





I'm at the airport and just checking in. Writing in collaboration is what I love and it's been an excellent opportunity. Logan or no Logan.

Thanks to all involved.

Sandra



A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.
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Mr.Ripley
Posted: January 21st, 2010, 3:32pm Report to Moderator
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(SPOILERS)

Some things I saw going to the ending:

(SPOILERS)

When they mooned Gabriel, how's that ruining his film? Can't Gabriel edit?

Also, Gabriel's broke why won't he the estate that Jeanna mentions to Darnell?

Gabe


Just Murdered by Sean Elwood (Zombie Sean) and Gabriel Moronta (Mr. Ripley) - (Dark Comedy, Horror) All is fair in love and war. A hopeless romantic gay man resorts to bloodshed to win the coveted position of Bridesmaid. 99 pages.
https://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-comedy/m-1624410571/
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grademan
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Good points Mr. Ripley! I'll add them to the clean-up list. Notice any more issues?

Gary
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greg
Posted: January 21st, 2010, 8:11pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from grademan


How can we make the plot clearer, more compelling?

How can we make the characters more there, more compelling?



1) There needs to be a greater conflict that ties everyone together.  What's here right now is a bunch of small conflicts that are resolved relatively quickly and don't even involve everyone.  Yeah, Johnny's ring was stolen so then he assumes everyone a suspect, but there's no real suspense or sense of suspicion.  And as I just saw in Pia's post, the title doesn't really fit because the stealing conflict really feels very minor in the greater picture of things.  IMO there should be one central conflict established early and it can be as simple as Johnny's ring being stolen, but it needs to be there for most of the story and then you can have a bunch of other little sub-conflicts branching off from that.

2) As I mentioned, it felt to me the characters never really graduated from high school.  It's like they were in high school and then 10 years later they're here, but nothing changed in between.  They still feel like the same people and even though a few of them had moderate changes by the end of the story, it wasn't enough.  What I would have liked to see was more storytelling about what they were like in high school.  I would have liked to see their current experiences drawing on past memories from 10 years ago.  We get some very brief storytelling from Johnny and we learn that Frances chopped his wee wee off, but other than that the characters weren't "there."  Since the story pretty much revolves around these people's relationships and memories of high school, I think there needs to be more back story told and it needs to reoccur throughout the script, not just at one point.

Hope this helps!

-Greg


Be excellent to each other
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Mr.Ripley
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Apparently I fogrot to leave a review. lol. It's actually short.

Something that came to me which I might put in the rewrite thread is the development of these characters. I don't think theirs a character arc here. We need to develop this.

That's it. My other comments can be found in the rewrite thread.

Gabe


Just Murdered by Sean Elwood (Zombie Sean) and Gabriel Moronta (Mr. Ripley) - (Dark Comedy, Horror) All is fair in love and war. A hopeless romantic gay man resorts to bloodshed to win the coveted position of Bridesmaid. 99 pages.
https://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-comedy/m-1624410571/
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frXNtier
Posted: May 9th, 2010, 2:32am Report to Moderator
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I think I will have to wait for the rewrite on this one before I can really give any criticism on the story, because I just could not get through the whole thing.

And I'll tell you why.

Just about every action line was either (1) so descriptive, I had to spend ten minutes trying to decipher its meaning, or (2) it was just simply an example of telling me something that really should have been shown.

Examples:
(1)
“As if a brash and unfettered librarian, she draws her gaze up to the high ceiling and around the room. Not a librarian, but a calculating cashier; she's impressed.”
I’m sorry, but I just have no idea what this means. I need to see how she reacts. Using metaphors is confusing. Especially when one second she is a librarian, and then she turns into a “calculating cashier”.

“Gabriel's acting talent hits -- his practiced smile is ace.
Cherry should have been an actress too.
She mimics a moment of HALF-BREED to which Gabriel lingers on –”

The first two action lines about acting talent do not give a clear picture of the intention of the characters, whilst the third directs readers seemingly to an outside reference, which is not made clear (HALF-BREED?).


(2)
“Cherry and Jimmy move closer together -- electric sparks fly.”
Obviously sparks are not literally flying. So how is this shown?

“Roddy pushes past Gabriel, who is used to it now”
He may well be, but how does he show this?

“As she leaves the car she's flooded by the beauty and immensity of the place.”
How is she “flooded”? Her thoughts? Her emotions?

“A lush entryway as you'd expect.”
What do I expect? You haven’t told me.

“The name hits Cherry like a hot wind.”
Again, overuse of similes. I get what you mean, but what is Cherry’s reaction?

I could go on, but I don’t feel it’s necessary. It was quite tiresome to read. A script should show me what’s happening, not make me work it out for myself. As I said, I think I will wait for the rewrite to make any further comment. But I certainly think that any rewrite should take this into consideration so as to make the story more obvious, and not have it weighed down with unncessary metaphors and fanciful language.


Tommorrow I'll be gone. I don't know when I'll be back.
But in this world everything can change just like that.


http://semioticdistortion.blogspot.com/
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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: May 9th, 2010, 4:59pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from frXNtier
I think I will have to wait for the rewrite on this one before I can really give any criticism on the story, because I just could not get through the whole thing.



I'll tell you this much ladies and gentlemen,

We now have a story! And we didn't. How everyone takes to it is going to be a matter of personal opinion as always, but I have to say I've been around many inconceivable blocks with this one.

I just sent it off to Gary my fellow collaborator and Thief!  

Sandra




A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.
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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: May 9th, 2010, 5:12pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from frXNtier

I could go on, but I don’t feel it’s necessary. It was quite tiresome to read. A script should show me what’s happening, not make me work it out for myself. As I said, I think I will wait for the rewrite to make any further comment. But I certainly think that any rewrite should take this into consideration so as to make the story more obvious, and not have it weighed down with unncessary metaphors and fanciful language.


You are absolutely correct. Please remember though this was run as a game and as an exploratory draft where it all hangs out.

I want to comment about what "shows on the page". There's a line we walk because yes, we want to show, but some things are internal. Writing internal for screen is probably something we could explore in a thread sometime.

I often get tired of: She smiles. He laughs... You know? Because there's a whole lot to a smile and the tone of it and context of just "the smile" is huge.

By the way, with

The sparks fly.

How do you show that? By sparks flying of course.   If you want that type of thing in your movie, but again, it's all relative.

Thanks for joining us. Maybe you can be a Thief too?

Sandra






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rendevous
Posted: May 9th, 2010, 5:14pm Report to Moderator
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frXNtier,

Not that Sandra needs any help defending herself. But you're new and I may have given you the wrong impression last night.

So. Time to patch. I see you're in double figures for posts. Once they get treble you may be a lot wiser. I was. And am.

Now den. You ask...


Quoted from frXNtier
“Cherry and Jimmy move closer together -- electric sparks fly.”
Obviously sparks are not literally flying. So how is this shown?


The actors interpret the line and act accordingly. As the reader imagines what they do, so do the actors. Pro scripts are packed full of this type of thing.


Quoted from frXNtier
Just about every action line was either (1) so descriptive, I had to spend ten minutes trying to decipher its meaning, or (2) it was just simply an example of telling me something that really should have been shown.


The idea is 'show, don't tell.'

However, there's a thousand ways to remove cat skin. Poor auld pussies.

Personally, having read hundreds of pro and amateur scripts over the past few years I quite liked it.

There's room for improvement in it. There always is. With every script. Nothing's perfect in this world. Apart from birds, blue whales. And trees. Oh, some fish are pretty perfect too. Dogs are also rather touching perfection. Predatory atheletes of the highest order. Domestic ones are also amazing for different reasons.

Scripts however need work. They are like paintings: never finished. The artist just stops before it gets worse.

Sandra and friends have been on here for a long time. I've not. Word to wise: respect where due. Cheek and comments can be fun.

But, messing with da big boys without the right tools can sometimes be fruitless.

L&P,

R


Out Of Character - updated


New Used Car

Green

Right Back

The Deuce - OWC - now on STS

Other scripts here
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frXNtier
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Not that Sandra needs any help defending herself.

I'm not attacking anyone, so I wouldn't expect anyone to defend themselves. Simply giving my thoughts, as my friend asked me to read the script, and this is what I thought.

Word to wise: respect where due. Cheek and comments can be fun. But, messing with da big boys without the right tools can sometimes be fruitless.

I wasn't attempting to be disrespectful. I wasn't attempting to "mess with da big boys". I was simply giving my opinion. And to be told that "once [my number of posts] get treble [I] may be a lot wiser" is implying that I have no business giving my opinion until I have flooded the forum with at least 100 posts. This seems to be no way to judge the merit of someone's opinion.

If you don't agree with my comments then that is fine, and I'm happy to hear a rebuttal, but to be blasted for being disrepectful, unwise and "cheeky" is quite unwelcoming.  


Tommorrow I'll be gone. I don't know when I'll be back.
But in this world everything can change just like that.


http://semioticdistortion.blogspot.com/
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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: May 10th, 2010, 2:12pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from frXNtier
Not that Sandra needs any help defending herself.

I'm not attacking anyone, so I wouldn't expect anyone to defend themselves. Simply giving my thoughts, as my friend asked me to read the script, and this is what I thought.

Word to wise: respect where due. Cheek and comments can be fun. But, messing with da big boys without the right tools can sometimes be fruitless.

I wasn't attempting to be disrespectful. I wasn't attempting to "mess with da big boys". I was simply giving my opinion. And to be told that "once [my number of posts] get treble [I] may be a lot wiser" is implying that I have no business giving my opinion until I have flooded the forum with at least 100 posts. This seems to be no way to judge the merit of someone's opinion.

If you don't agree with my comments then that is fine, and I'm happy to hear a rebuttal, but to be blasted for being disrepectful, unwise and "cheeky" is quite unwelcoming.  


Don't worry, frXNtier. We all turn into these beasts sometimes. Which reminds me... Something beastly is up in the rewrite of Thief.  

It's easy on line for people to get riled up because with words, there are none of the gestures and intonations that accompany one's feedback.

I do agree with a lot of what you said, but for many reasons that aren't just the surface problems that you've mentioned. This is why huge amounts of material are devoted to "the act of writing". It's an amazing study that reaches so deep and far as life itself and that's why we're here I think.

Most of us know very well that we could die tomorrow and have spent so much time and dedication to something that will never be finished. That tells us something about ourselves and any kind of artist. Art for art sake. Ars gratia artis.

The people writing in the game of Thief did so off the cuff and worlds apart. That to me is an amazing thing that I couldn't have possibly dreamed of when I was a teenager.

That miraculous connection is something that Warcrafters and our Thieves here in Simply know very well. And of course it's why people get upset with each other and all that, that's life.

Welcome to the boards. Hugs.

Sandra



A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.
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grademan
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Thanks for the comments frXNtier!  

The comments you made are very insightful. You have identiifed an item many of us struggle with. Is it more economical to use words to describe a human reaction as:

Jimmy and Cherry lean closer together, they both smile and giggle at the same time, never looking away from each other as their eyes lock. Their faces flush as she glides her hand towards his. (This is a little overdone, I know.)

Or this -

Sparks fly.

Which as description goes does give the actor the emotion to portray in a shorthand understood by everyone.

Not saying one is better than the other, They are both ways of telling a story. How often they should be used is open to debate. Avoid overusing any tool.

Keep it lean and clean. Not sure if this made any sense. I see your point, though, and look forward to your future comments and scripts.

Gary
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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: May 10th, 2010, 3:58pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from grademan
Thanks for the comments frXNtier!  

The comments you made are very insightful. You have identiifed an item many of us struggle with. Is it more economical to use words to describe a human reaction as:

Jimmy and Cherry lean closer together, they both smile and giggle at the same time, never looking away from each other as their eyes lock. Their faces flush as she glides her hand towards his. (This is a little overdone, I know.)

Or this -

Sparks fly.

Which as description goes does give the actor the emotion to portray in a shorthand understood by everyone.

Not saying one is better than the other, They are both ways of telling a story. How often they should be used is open to debate. Avoid overusing any tool.

Keep it lean and clean. Not sure if this made any sense. I see your point, though, and look forward to your future comments and scripts.

Gary


It does completely. Trying for that balance. After a long time and a lot of work it becomes instinctual. Even then, I think we're questioning the weight we give to a scene.

Every question is a valid one. The direction we decide to take can fly from one moment to the next, but eventually, we begin to see things clearly and the project and characters take on their own life. We keep applying the craft, and "they" somehow guide us.

Sandra



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