Hey Mark

I am curious where things are on this as well. And what you've been up to!

With a little distance from the read, I can say that I have no problem at all remembering the story, which is an accomplishment when a writer can achieve that. This is perhaps do to the combination of clear writing, consistent tension, and strong images.

I do still recommend that the strong images be reduced to one or two really shocking images, as opposed to several. Too many waters down what you're trying to achieve. And I think there are a lot of things that could replace that space which would be interesting, and by bonding us even more to the characters, sharpen the shocking scenes you do choose to focus on.

For example, if we see more of the teacher's progress in leading his students in the classroom. This would be interesting  in itself, and would really add to the audience frustration when things finally come apart.

A similar path would work for the girl, where we see her making real progress. We feel an optimism for her future, then something really tragic happens.

I think you could consider deciding which character is more the protag, the girl or the teacher. Once you do that, you develop a relationship between that character's flaw and the theme you want to focus on. Overcoming the flaw will reveal the theme.

Hope things are well.

Kevin

Hey, Jahongir.

Sorry about the delayed reply.

Thanks for taking the time to sludge through this one.  Sorry that it was depressing for you.  (Although, I've only ever worked on this story whenever I was in very very depressed (or sometimes angry) moods, so at least I got how I was feeling inside into the story.

And thank you for the compliment about the writing style.  Hopefully some better stories'll be coming my way soon.

I am a little bit curious about the racist comment, though, and how you meant to apply it to this story.  I could've gone into a lot of issues with differences between the black and white culture, but kept any kind of stereotypes or hate remarks out of it and just kept the characters actions related to other actions.  None of the characters reacted with any racial motive.  I was very careful not to steer the story in any direction of that kind.  Yes, it was hinted at here and there that there are differences, but never explored.

Nonetheless, I'm sorry to see that that's how the story came across to you.  I promise that if anything did come across that way, it was not intended.  I'm not the slightest bit racist at all.  (My son is mixed and the current person I'm dating is black, so I promise, I don't hold any hatred in my heart for any cultures.)  Except eskimos.  I don't like eskimos.  Eskimos are smug.

As for Roberta's line at the top of page eleven:  Mr. Bobby teaches science.  She's just saying that she'll become a scientist just so they'd have something in common, meaning that she has a crush on him.

Once again, thank you, Jahongir, for reading and letting me know what you thought about the story.

Quoted from jahon Your writing is great. Just get better stories.

Lol.  I really really loved that comment.  I just wish it was that easy.  :-)  Have a good one, Jahon.

- Mark

Hey Brendan and Kevin,

Sorry I don't have too much time today.  I'm still computer-less for a little while and using library time to try and keep up with things.

I have off on Saturday, so I'll head back up here and get back to you guys then.

I'm really really sorry about the delay.

- Mark

Hey Brendan.

Finally got some time to get online.

Quoted from Brendan I guess all I have left is to ask what do you plan on doing next with this script and if there is any feedback you've gotten here that you do want to consider for future drafts?

I'm working on storyboards for another feature I'm working on right now mainly, but hopefully this summer, I'm going to come back to 'thistles' and give it a pretty good rewrite before I start sending it around.  I'll have to go over all the feedback again, but I remember definately reading some things that I thought would be really good for the story.

Quoted from Brendan I would almost suggest this would be best made into a novel as if as opposed to a screenplay.

This story I started a couple years later.  I actually started out writing both the novel and screenplay version at the same time.  Eventually, I get tired of bullshitting in a novel and focused strictly on the screenplay.  If the screenplay goes nowhere in the future, I'll probably approach it again as a novel.

I have wanted to check out a Serbian Film, but haven't found it yet.

I'll be back in a couple minutes to finish, Brendan.

- Mark

Hey Brendan and Kevin.

All right.  Sorry.  My hour was up at the library and I had to sign up for a new computer.

But as I was saying, I have heard of a pretty disturbing movie called 'A Serbian Film' and am interested in checking it out.  Hopefully I come across it somewhere, as I like to see how others tackle tough subjects.

Quoted from Brendan Also, when you said that your job as the writer is to put down the story to paper and that its no concern to you how the filmmakers decide to film it ... But I thought the whole point of screenwriting is that we wanted to see our stories made into movies?

I should probably explain a little more what I meant.  Of course I'd love to see my stories made into movies.  Chances are, this one won't be filmed exactly how I wrote it.  I just wrote what happened, tackled and explained what the violence would look like in real life... now it's up to someone else to put it on the screen.  I'm not going to hamstring myself by just saying "Cora does something bad to Sazha," and leave it in the air.  They know what happened, now they decide what to show.

Quoted from Brendan I write it as how I imagine it being filmed and edited.

That's pretty much how I write it too, unless of course the edit or effects or whatever is too complicated for a screenplay and would just muddle things up.  In that case, I just explain what happens directly, and have faith in whoever I give permission to film this and their ability to select a film and edit crew.  (I've never picked the first person to come along and don't see myself doing that with any of my features, either.)

Anyway, Kev, sorry I can't get back to you right now.  Just got a phone call from work and I have to go in for a couple hours.  I promise I'll try and get back to you tonight.

Once again, I'm sorry it's taken so long.

- Mark

Hey Kev.

As for 'Thistles', it's on the shelf just for the next couple of months, then I'm going to tackle a rewrite this summer or fall before I start sending it out on some rounds.  (It's nice to have some rounds to send it to.  I've finally been making some connections over the past several months.)

One of the things I'm going to incorporate into the rewrite is Crandall connecting with the class more.  I think that part was a little rushed and I think I found a way to draw on some of the heartstrings of the class.  All other changes and additions I'm going to wait until I can have all my focus on 'Thistles'.

In the meantime, I'm brushing up a short story to send out to some literary magazines next month, and I'm also working on a new feature based on some events that happened to me last spring and summer.  It's the most (probably only) autobiographical thing I've ever written, but I think I've changed enough things and gotten myself mentally as far away from the events as I could, that I feel comfortable looking back on them now and telling the story as if it was somebody else's, without any personal opinions being dragged in.

Other than that, I'm just excited about this summer.  I have a couple shorts that have been filmed and are in post and are supposed to be hitting the festival circuit.  I also have another one that's scheduled to be shot in the spring time in Los Angeles.  Of course, those are only shorts, but at least it's stuff I can start putting into my portfolio so I'm not an absolute stranger anymore.

How about you?  What have you been up to lately?  I thought I saw some talk on the board that you've had some talks with some production companies lately, but didn't get any details.  (You can PM me to reply.)

Anyway, hope things have been going good for you and hope to talk to you soon.

- Mark

Hey Mark

Glad about the teacher, that's a real good idea for the script. I think if we really see the progress he is making, his fall will be much more tragic. Same with the girl. You will have to research education techniques, maybe, but I bet there's a ton online. Maybe look into what some charter schools have done successfully in inner cities.

Nothing too exciting on my end. I have a feature that someone is trying to produce, but I don't have any confidence he'll succeed. I'm really not involved with it anymore. He's had no luck raising funds. There's a website for it, but I don't even want to give the link here.

I'm gonna take my first shot at Nichols. A feature I wrote this summer and have rewritten twice. We'll see what happens. Meanwhile, just wrote a couple shorts and started a couple new features. Still trying to learn how to write, man!

Glad to hear things are well for you. Creating tension in scripts is tough, and you developed a lot here. I think maybe tone a couple things back, focus on a couple, and it'll round into shape.

Hey Mark,

Shit weather today so I got around to your script. First a few page by page notes if anything strikes me...

I thought page 7 was an odd place to describe Sazha. Didn't we already see her on 8mm film?

Felt odd to me that MR Crandall was left to clean his own aprtment of blood and brain matter. I thought they had professionals that come in and do that, alohough maybe not in the hood. Plus, I would still think this would be considered a crime scene for a few days. Seemed to happen a bit fast...

If Turell was sleeping with her, I think you need to drop a mild hint of that early on. It seemed to come out of the blue during the conflict with Cora. Even when her friends were talking about how hot her brother was, it seemed like a perfect time to show Sazha having some reluctance towards the conversation. Drop us a hint, if you did, it flew right over my head.

If your point was to surprise the audience, it felt a bit forced. You have a hell of alot of surprises in this already.

I liked sazha, which made this painful for me to read, even more painful on film IMO. There is definitely some taboo stuff in this. Its hard to swallow in a good deal of places.

Cora mutilating the head of Sazhas baby while she's giving birth may give me nightmares. I understand that you're trying to show an avid activist against abortion going back on everything she fights for, but i would like to see Cora struggle with that decision. Not just act right away. I actually wanted to see Cora try to take her to the clinic for an abortion.

You open and close this well with the pschiatrist not being heard at first, then you learn the questions as we revisit the scene. The use of the poem is a good one here as I can see how it fits your theme. You end this with sazha seemingly forgiving her mother. I had a hard time with that. But, I see that's the theme you were going for here.

When someone writes a dark story like this, I really am at a loss for suggestions. I don't like them and what could I suggest? Something to make it even more painful to endure?

I have no problems with writers taking on dark depths of reality in their stories. not everything has a happy ending. But, that's what I read the papers for. I go to the movies to drop out of reality for a bit.

You've shown a great improvement in technique since the last feature I've read by you. I didn't read other comments, so i'm sure you've been called out for some structure elements being a bit off here. Never puts me out of a read so long as I keep interested.

I wish you best with it. It certainly is... something. Just not a something I would like to sit through on film.

Sorry this review seems short, because it is. This happens to me when I come across a story i feel I can't contribute much to.

Good luck with the rewrite, maybe let me know what changes you plan to make and i could chime in a bit on those.

James

Hey James,

Thank you very much for taking a read of this.  I understand some of the situations are really tough to get through, graphically, and I imagine tough to also watch on screen.  This is a story I've only visited through the past couple years whenever I was in a deep depression, which is probably why it's so dark.  I definately understand what you're saying.

Quoted from james I thought page 7 was an odd place to describe Sazha. Didn't we already see her on 8mm film?

I'm still not 100% if I'm going to keep the opening 8mm scene.  I am leaning towards it, and if I do, I'll go back and move page 7's description to the 8mm.

Quoted from james I thought they had professionals that come in and do that, alohough maybe not in the hood. Plus, I would still think this would be considered a crime scene for a few days. Seemed to happen a bit fast...

Actually, I'm not too sure about this one.  I don't know if they do around here or not and honestly, I didn't give it that much thought.  I just liked the visual of Crandall having to sop up the mess.

I do know that in the shootiing I witnessed just a couple weeks ago, they just left the blood (and glass) on the sidewalk and it stayed there for a couple days, until the rain washed it away.  The glass is still there.  But that was outside.  Not too sure if they'd clean it up if it happened in someone's house.

Quoted from james If your point was to surprise the audience, (in reference to Turrell), it felt a bit forced. You have a hell of alot of surprises in this already.

Yeah, I'm still trying to decide if I want to keep that in there or not.  The story is still pretty powerful with it just being about Sazha and Crandall.  I thought Turrell's actions just added a couple other elements to Sazha, and help explain the weird things she does here and there.

Quoted from james I understand that you're trying to show an avid activist against abortion going back on everything she fights for, but i would like to see Cora struggle with that decision. Not just act right away.

I tried to show Cora's breakdown throughout the story, with Cora losing control more and more, (like with her beating someone over the head with her sign), so that when she does find out about Sazha, it's more of just a sudden violent reaction than anything.  I think I do have to work on her breakdown more.

The inspiration for Cora actually comes from those rash of abortion clinic bombings in the 90's I remembered reading about.  I found it fascinating that these people are so for life, that they'll kill people to get their political views across.

Quoted from james You open and close this well with the pschiatrist not being heard at first, then you learn the questions as we revisit the scene.

Lol.  Well, that makes it easier to decide if I want to keep the 8mm scene or not.  :-)

Quoted from james I have no problems with writers taking on dark depths of reality in their stories. not everything has a happy ending. But, that's what I read the papers for. I go to the movies to drop out of reality for a bit.

I don't read the papers, so I have to take my dark side out in my scripts.  :-)  I understand using movies just as a form of entertainment.  But for me, I enjoy movies for the experience, whether they're happy, sad, violent, romantic, or slow or action-filled.  This for me is just one of those sad ones.

Quoted from james i'm sure you've been called out for some structure elements being a bit off here.

Hmm.  Not exactly sure what you're referring to here?  Do you mean the technical stuff, like the margins?  (I've been told they were off.)  I'm getting Final Draft this week, so hopefully that'll fix that kind of stuff.

Thank you again for taking a look and letting me know your thoughts.  Sorry it didn't seem to sit that well with you.  (Trust me.  I understand why it didn't.)  But I appreciate you sharing nevertheless.

Thanks much.  I'll be seeing you around.

- Mark

Wassup, Mark.

I picked this up last night in bed, thought I was only gonna get through 20-25 pages but about an hour and a half later I had finished the script. It was around 2 am at that point and I had really hoped to catch some shut eye but that script stayed with me for another hour or so before I finally dozed off.

Buddy, this is one ballsy fucking script. Having read a lot of your stuff I knew that it was going to be that way but I guess I hadn't really prepared myself for it. Goddamn, that's some strong visuals, man. Shee-it.

Okay, the script itself is tighter than a twelve year old girl - excuse me, a thirteen year old girl - precise descriptions and fairly breeze dialogue. A couple of akward phrasing here and there but nothing - absolutely nothing - that destracts from the overall read. I see other people have mentioned act breaks, stakes, goals etc. and they're wrong - in that this script doesn't really follow the general road map - but i was actually okay with that in this instance (and I'm usually not). As part of the genre, you've written "Independent". Wise move, my man, because that let's you experiment a little with where the different act breaks - and I guess pacing as well. Cos I gotta be honest, things did develop slowly but that didn't mean the script felt like it was dragging. I couldn't point to one scene that didn't need to be there (okay I can, and I will later).

Mr. Crandall is one sad character and I like the fact that his backstory was never really revealed in great detail. We know just enough about him and his past to get why he's like that but I think you could've kept him alive longer. I mean, he dies somewhere after the halfway point and while the scenes where Sazha earns money for the vitamins were a nice touch the story sort of lost one of its driving forces.

One thing I didn't see coming was the reveal that Sazha's brother had been coming into her bed. Maybe I missed some hints along the way but I just read him as a (racist) crackhead.

The "abortion" scene...God damn! I'm not even go into that one other than to say it was friggin terrible to read but beautifully written. I also like the  reversal you pull on Cora by having her be the one that actually performs the abortion. I actually thought at some point that Sazha was gonna cook the placenta and serve it to her mother (that would have been fucking gross).

I might be wrong but it appears that Sazha forgives her mother in the end. I have a problem with that if that's the case. It seems to contradict her entire goal. But like I said, I might be wrong.

The opening scene with the 8mm footage...hmmm, was it really needed? I'm asking because I think it gives away too much from the get go. Oh, and 8mm? Really? In this day and age every the crappiest cell phone seem to have an HD camera so I'm not so sure an 8mm camera would be used. Nitpicking, I know.

Anyway, that's my .02. Sorry I couldn't give you more to work with but...there really isn't that much I would change.

Good stuff, Mark.

Cheers
Rob

All right, Rob.  I'm going to try this again.  This time I'm going to Copy what I type every two minutes.

Thanks again, for taking the read.  I'm sorry it kept you up longer than you wanted to be.  All right, I'm not sorry it kept you up.  I'm kind of proud, actually.  But, I have some major sleeping problems and know what it's like not to sleep.  So, I am actually sorry.  I'm glad it got you thinking, though.

Quoted from sniper Buddy, this is one ballsy fucking script. Having read a lot of your stuff I knew that it was going to be that way but I guess I hadn't really prepared myself for it. Goddamn, that's some strong visuals, man. Shee-it. Okay, the script itself is tighter than a twelve year old girl

Lol.  You're fucked up.  You're hilarious, though, too.  If you don't mind, I think I'm going to use those comments as coverage when I start sending the script out to companies.  I think 'ballsy' and 'tighter than a 12 year-old' might attract some attention and get it read.

Quoted from sniper I see other people have mentioned act breaks, stakes, goals etc. and they're wrong - in that this script doesn't really follow the general road map - but i was actually okay with that in this instance (and I'm usually not).

Actually, for this story and the two stories I'm working on right now, I'm throwing the three act structure out the window and just writing the story as it comes, and just making sure I'm putting in a turning point every couple of pages, rather than every 30.  Of course, someone can always go to page 30 and page 60 and find some elements of different acts starting, but that's not how I roadmapped or planned it.  I just made sure I wrote every scene escalating and escalating and where it ended up is where it ended up.


I'm glad you like Crandall as a character.  I really liked writing about him and his isolation.

I don't know if you remember or not, but this is the story I told you about a couple years ago that I was sitting down writing as a screenplay and a novel at the same time.  (I don't recommend anybody ever do that.  It just made everything drag on and on and everything was taking forever and moving at a snail's pace.)  However, one good thing about that, is that I got to know the character's very well.  I think there's a lot of evidence of that in how I was never scared to leave any of the characters by themselves.  Crandall drinking mouthwash on his couch.  Sazha listening to the heartbeat of her baby.  Cora staring at a blank television...  All those things said something about the character and still moved the story forward without any dialogue whatsoever.

(And, just for the record, I stopped writing the novel at around 24,000 words.  I found out that the big difference between writing novels and writing screenplays is how much you can bullshit.  I'd rather get in, tell my stories, and get out.)

Quoted from sniper One thing I didn't see coming was the reveal that Sazha's brother had been coming into her bed. Maybe I missed some hints along the way but I just read him as a (racist) crackhead.

I could be an asshole and say to go back and read it again closer to find the hints.  But there weren't any.  That storyline is still in mid-air if I want to use it in the final draft or not.  Initially, when I was writing the storyboard, that idea was in there.  But I took it out while I was writing the actual script itself, which is why there weren't any clues.  But, I decided to put it back in because I thought it added a couple different dimensions to Sazha as a character, and why she does some 'not so normal' things towards the end.

Quoted from sniper The "abortion" scene...God damn! I'm not even go into that one other than to say it was friggin terrible to read but beautifully written.

I love writing horror stories and labeling them as dramas.  You can catch people more offguard that way.

Quoted from sniper I actually thought at some point that Sazha was gonna cook the placenta and serve it to her mother (that would have been fucking gross).

Damn!  I gotta use that now!  You know what's really really funny, though?  I got home from work late lastnight (or early this morning) and that's when I first read your response.  And this was the first story they were running on Yahoo at the time:

http://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/january-jones-eats-own-placenta-healthy-ick-165800669.html

Coincidence?  I think not.

Quoted from sniper I might be wrong but it appears that Sazha forgives her mother in the end. I have a problem with that if that's the case. It seems to contradict her entire goal. But like I said, I might be wrong.

It's not that Sazha came right out and automatically forgave her.  I realize it might have come out that way when Sazha started cooking meals for Cora again, but that was just to show that she was just on the road to getting things back to normal again, back before everything happened.  True, she probably shouldn't even be living with her mother, but she is developing some of Crandall's characteristics and just giving in, that's why she's on that road.


The 8mm scene is up in the air, too.  It does give away a lot from the get go, but I wasn't trying to pull any fast ones with this story, so I'm not sure if it does any harm or not.  I just wrote it in there because I wanted to have an image of Sazha carrying around a wooden box and wondering what's in it.  Then, we find out at page 20-something, then find it's a lot more than just what we think it is.

Lol, and I just used the term 8mm because I wanted the reader to have a very grainy picture in their head, and rather than explaining that it's grainy in the scene heading, 8mm seemed to do the job.

Again, thanks a bunch for checking this one out.  I really appreciate your thoughts on it and I'm glad to see you liked it.

Say, just out of curiosity, did you happen to notice the connection to the story and the poster I made for Thistles in the first reply of this thread?

I was wondering if somebody was going to bring it up, but so far, only one person has.

Thanks again, Rob.

- Mark

Mark,
Thank you for this story. It was so powerful. This may haunt me for quite some time. I'm walking away from this feeling as though I experienced something real.

I'm new to screenwriting. Thistles really blew me away.  I'm inspired.

I probably sound way over the top with the compliments, but they are genuine.  I really liked it.

Jojo

Hey Jojo.

First of all, let me say welcome to SimplyScripts and welcome to the boards.  I think I saw a feature pop up on the site a couple days ago that had your name on it.  I can't remember the title offhand, but I'll do a little searching and give it a read in the next couple days and let you know what I think.  Hopefully, you'll plan on sticking around the site for a bit.  There is a pretty good amount of learning that can be done around here.

Secondly, thank you very much for the warm compliments.  I'd be lying if I didn't say your post brightened up my day.  :-)

And thank you for taking the read, too.  I'll be searching for yours that I saw later on today.

- Mark

Hey Mark,

Gave this a read and finished it in one night. lol. Now, I didn't read any of the comments so I might be repeating which will tell you to fix the problem.

Spoilers!

I think you need to fix the logline so that it centers on Sazha. Didn't see much story with Crandall.

I would like to know her obsession with her white teacher and having the baby. Why Crandall? Also, if she wants the baby so bad, why not fight her mother tooth and nail?  

I would like also to know a bit more of Sazha and Turrell's relationship. She claim of their incestuous nature. Didn't see that coming. lol. Prob give some small hints early on.  

I think you should limit some of those shocking scenes. That will make your shopping of this script less difficult. I must say though, that was some fucked up shit. lol.

Wouldn't Sazha's friends try to comfort her at her loss? Also, wouldn't Sazha confide in them about her pregnancy or they can confront her about it?

I have no problem with Sazha's age in the script however I think producers might. Prob change her age to 17?

Other than that, it was a good tale. A very quick read. There were times that you took me completely surprised like Turell's death. I thought it would be Crandall because of the opening. Very good.

Also, as much as I love the white space on the first page, I think you should just repeat that questioning between Pattona and Sazha. I think it will have a bigger impact.

Good luck in optioning this.

Hope this helps, and can't wait to read the new draft.
Gabe

Hey Gabe.

Thanks for taking a look at this one.  I'll be checking out 'Dark Entrance' as soon as it hits the portal.  Or was it 'Cain' that you submitted?  I'll be on the lookout for both.

Anyway, I struggled a lot with the logline on this one.  This is the logline I actually used when this was just a short story I was putting together, and I just couldn't think of anything better.

Quoted from Gabe I would like to know her obsession with her white teacher and having the baby. Why Crandall? Also, if she wants the baby so bad, why not fight her mother tooth and nail?

She sees that he's very easy to manipulate.  She wants to know what it feels like to be the dominant one, rather than the submissive that she is.  Of course, I only allude to that in the script.  I never came right out and said it.  I didn't want to beat people over the head with it.

As for not fighting tooth and nail for the baby, she was trying the best she could to just protect it, defend it.  She didn't want to attack her mother.  Afterall, she is very much like Crandall and is very passive at times.  That's why I wanted to show her moving on at the end after everything.  Where Crandall failed, Sazha succeeded.

Quoted from Gabe (Sazha's) claim of their incestuous nature. Didn't see that coming. lol. Prob give some small hints early on.

Yeah, the hints I gave were very scarse, and you could probably only see them by going back and reading it again.  In the latest draft, she did tell him that she was going to tell on him about what he was doing, but I leave it open as to whether it's about the drugs, or something else.


What?  Make the shopping of the script less difficult?  Where's the reward in that?  :-)

Quoted from Gabe Wouldn't Sazha's friends try to comfort her at her loss? Also, wouldn't Sazha confide in them about her pregnancy or they can confront her about it?

I wanted to portray her as a loner, much like Crandall was.  Yes, she does hang out with them after school for a bit, but that's as far as it goes.

Quoted from Gabe There were times that you took me completely surprised like Turell's death. I thought it would be Crandall because of the opening. Very good. Also, as much as I love the white space on the first page, I think you should just repeat that questioning between Pattona and Sazha. I think it will have a bigger impact.

Yeah, that whole opening is still up in the air.  I just wanted to show that Sazha's carrying around a box with something sacred to her in it, and that's the best way that I could think to do it.

Quoted from Gabe Hope this helps, and can't wait to read the new draft.

Thank you very much, Gabe, but there are only very very minor changes that are going to be in the newly posted draft, mainly fixing the typos and a few smoother transitions.  Some of the shocking stuff is toned down, but not very much at all.

In fact, the only reason I'm posting the new draft is because putting the story in the new software I have, properly formatted and all, cut out sixteen or so pages.  I was shocked when it made that much of a difference.

I always wanted the story to have a runtime of 85-90 minutes, and I was surprised when I ended up with 100 pages in Word.  I'm shocked how the formatting was off that bad.

Thanks for all your thoughts and comments, Gabe.  It's much appreciated.  I'll be on the lookout in the portal for your stuff when it's posted.

- Mark