People...in whatever artistic field... always call for originality.

When originality is delivered...they don't buy it. What they say they want and what they spend their money on are two different things.

It's the same in life: If asked people overwhelmingly say that they support animal welfare, but when given a choice they overwhelmingly go for the cheapest meat.

I remember attending a UK Film council event where people were talking about how to grow the British independent film scene. The woman doing the talk, a distributor, asked the three hundred or so audience how many people had seen certain British independent films that had been on at cinemas that year...about ten hands went up.

Her point was simple...you can't grow the scene because even the most clued up people who actively want a thriving independent scene don't support it.

It's that old Catch 22...there's no money to market different stuff, so no-one goes to see it....and no-one goes to see them so there's no money for marketing.



All that being said: Original IP's are released, often they're just not very good. Films like Jupiter Ascending, Elysium, Oblivion etc. If they were good they'd become the new Star Wars...but usually they aren't.

And usually they're not very good is that the scripts aren't great.

Most of the better films are adapted from novels, or graphic novels imo.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films People...in whatever artistic field... always call for originality. When originality is delivered...they don't buy it. What they say they want and what they spend their money on are two different things. Probably true. I think part of it is brand. It's the same in life: If asked people overwhelmingly say that they support animal welfare, but when given a choice they overwhelmingly go for the cheapest meat. I remember attending a UK Film council event where people were talking about how to grow the British independent film scene. The woman doing the talk, a distributor, asked the three hundred or so audience how many people had seen certain British independent films that had been on at cinemas that year...about ten hands went up. Her point was simple...you can't grow the scene because even the most clued up people who actively want a thriving independent scene don't support it. It's that old Catch 22...there's no money to market different stuff, so no-one goes to see it....and no-one goes to see them so there's no money for marketing.

Of course, that's true. The most experimental films aren't going to garner as wide an audience, and I'm sure there are dozens, even hundreds, of films around the world that escape the attention of even those of who snootily claim to be more 'up' on this stuff.

But my point is, you'd hope in an idealistic, naive world that Disney (and others) would spend some of the billions they're making on producing solid, enjoyable, even sometimes excellent comic book adaptations to 'pay that forward' and bring new stories, new characters. If they don't all work, you've got your bankers that you can fall back on.

I work for a theatre publisher, and it's a similar argument there: the West End producers here in London are unwilling to take chances on big new musicals, they'd much rather it either have proved it can draw audiences either regionally/abroad or in subsidised theatres before they'll commit the investment to put that show in a massive theatre. But that's changing a bit, there's a recognition that without a steady supply of new material coming through you run the risk of choking the growth of the next generation of talent, and ultimately maybe boring audiences if all you give them is revivals. The success of the mega-hits gives you the freedom to experiment, to trust your taste and use the marketing powers/channels you've established, and the brand you've built up, to take those chances and try and convince the audience to turn out. Fingers crossed the film industry comes to the same realisation.

I kind of like Megan Ellison for this reason - she has money, being the daughter of a billionaire, but rather than take safe bets her company Annapurna Pictures claims to have the goal of 'creating sophisticated, high-quality films that might otherwise be deemed risky by contemporary Hollywood studios.' That seems to me to be encouraging.

Just thank goodness George Lucas was allowed to create Star Wars, Indiana Jones etc in the first place! If he and Steven Spielberg were coming through today, would they have been allowed to make those films? (I know that's a slightly weird argument, because WITHOUT those two - and others - in the '70s, the whole system would probably look different today, so it wouldn't be the same environment now anyway).

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films All that being said: Original IP's are released, often they're just not very good. Films like Jupiter Ascending, Elysium, Oblivion etc. If they were good they'd become the new Star Wars...but usually they aren't. And usually they're not very good is that the scripts aren't great. Most of the better films are adapted from novels, or graphic novels imo.

Ha - Oblivion may not have been an adaptation, but it was in no way original. It was like Planet of the Apes, The Matrix, Moon, Independence Day, a splash of I, Robot and a whole bunch of other films had been put in a blender and turned into a sort of sci-fi sludge. Agreed though, the answer is to write scripts so good people feel they can't afford to not make them, for fear of missing out on the next big thing!

(Sorry this has drifted massively off-topic.)

Quoted from Grandma Bear My point was that humans tend to pick what we already know to be good or are familiar with wether it's movies, restaurants, appliances or anything else. And, for the record, I only have one dishwasher.

My dishwasher broke recently, so now I have four dishwashers. Some people might call them children.

What you guys watch today is 2+ years ago by time it gets to the screen. Focus on great stories and you can never be outdated.

I think the trend goes away from remakes and sequels slowly but steady. Just about all those episode no. 95 revamps come in with declining box office returns. It still works, yes, most of them still break even, but the numbers are dropping. It seems a bit like the film industry still relies on them because they don't have a better idea of what to do. But even they must realize that this concept will be over the hill sooner or later.

I'm not convinced the stats back up your thoughts Thorsten... 4 of the all time box office top 10 are movies released this year, and Star Wars will join them very soon.

Jurassic World, FnF 7, Age of Ultron and Minions... every one of them a sequel.

J World is the 4th installment a Universal film
FnF is 7th installment a Universal film
Minions is 3rd installment a Universal film

So if 3rd 4th and 7th installments can all make more money than their predecessors, well Hollywood will keep still backing these bankers... and we keep seeing them.

But as I said earlier and others have said too... these bankers allow studios to make other things with a safety net... for Universal this year those 3 films made over 3 billion and allowed them to also make Legend, The Visit, Everest, Krampus and Crimson Peak to name a few.

I genuinely believe that the Super Hero thing will wane over time, these thing tend to be cyclical, and when it does we'll complain about too many Westerns, or SciFis, or whatever the box office juggernauts at the time are.

I'm with Dustin's kids... I'll see both!

I have been scrupulously avoiding this thread, and finally got my chance to check out the film last night.  For me, I can see where the haters are coming from, but I enjoyed it quite a bit, given that nostalgia played a fairly large part of that.

It felt like it belonged in the Star Wars universe.  That was mission critical, and as far as that goes, they knocked it out of the park.  The rest is quibbles with their choices.

It was as great as it could be to see Han and Chewy return to the proceedings. Like many, I hated where it eventually led.  It felt forced and unearned.  That was a big flaw.  And somebody give Harrison Ford a comb already.

No problems with the new faces.  They were unavoidable, and while the new girl is actually pretty good, things came to her far too easily.  That was also a flaw.

Kylo Ren was a swing and a miss.  They are going about this petulant novice thing all wrong.  If they really want a villain that is both whiny and effective -- with annoyingly great hair -- then they need to check out Tom Hiddleston's work in the Marvel Universe.  Whoever is working on the next script would be well served to inject a bit more Loki into Kylo.

The biggest problem for me, however, is that it felt like a chapter was missing.  Han and Leia had a kid?  Trained by Luke until it all went tits-up, with death, destruction, and Luke on the run?  All of that sounds pretty awesome, and this current story would have had far more resonance if we could have seen the previous story instead of a heaping helping of bland exposition.  But exposition has always been a weakness of the Star Wars universe, so in an odd way, it seems almost appropriate to find it here.  

The first half of this thread is a joy to read.  Great thoughts on this film from peers with interesting opinions, better than any review I've read.

It would be nice to steer this back on topic, if we could.  Haters who have not even seen the film sweeping in with blustery, judgmental proclamations serve little purpose.  The second half of this thread is kind of tedious, derailing a conversation I was quite enjoying.

Quoted from bert It felt like it belonged in the Star Wars universe.  That was mission critical, and as far as that goes, they knocked it out of the park.  The rest is quibbles with their choices.

That's a pretty good summary. Agree with most of the rest of what you say. I think my top three issues, all of which relate to sloppy writing in the second half, are:

- Rey's immediate, effortless and UNEARNED transformation from 'what's the Force?' to totally adept, ass-kicking master/mistress. Happened quickly enough to make you wonder what Luke was taking his sweet time about in the OT, and also made it laughably easy for her to get out of any tight spots here.

At the controls of a beaten-up, presumably difficult-to-fly-due-to-its-odd-shape (no wings) spaceship you didn't even know worked before now? Effortlessly fly it through the innards of a Destroyer pulling off manoeuvres the trained-from-childhood pilots chasing you can't hope to replicate! (Assuming that's to do with Force foresight abilities, the same reason Anakin was such as a good pod racer in TPM). Stuck in an interrogation room, restrained and with no hopes of escape? Say the magic mumbo-jumbo words you never knew were a thing and walk free! In a lightsaber battle where you're clearly outmatched? Close your eyes, take a deep breath and suddenly utterly defeat your opponent, who's trained at this for years!

Talk about everything coming easy for a character. All she did was BE DRAWN TO (she didn't even find it herself, or stumble across it accidentally) a lightsaber in a box and it started the process. I've read a theory online where Luke is now such a powerful Jedi he's controlling her remotely, channelling the Force through her, so in fact it's not her doing these things (it's Luke who has, in fact, 'awakened'). Which may make sense in later films, but doesn't stop it all being a bit cheap in this one.

- the Han/Ben/Leia arc felt woefully un-fleshed out, so while we had the big milestone moments (Han is back! Han and Leia are reunited! Han and Leia have a son! Han has been killed by his son while sort-of trying to get him to come home!), it fell a little flat for me. This exact thing happened at the end of Lost, where the Man in Black - such a pivotal part of the series - was killed in an incredibly anti-climactic way. The moment happened and you sort of went '...shrug'. Big characters should have big exits to match, imo. Or if you subvert that expectation, do it in some poetic, masterfully-handled, memorable way.

- CAPTAIN PHASMA. The more I think about it, the more I think this represents a lot of the slapdash nature of the writing in the second half. What was she actually doing there? Who is she? What purpose does she serve, apart from to look cool and probably sell toys? She's a crap soldier who's almost solely responsible for destroying the First Order's primary base. I look forward to seeing what happens to her in future films, but not in a 'I love this character' kind of way, more in a 'what on earth are they going to do with completely discredited character' way.

One other tiny moment that rang an alarm bell was Finn at Maz Kanata's castle. He decides to leave because he's scared, or something. Rey says 'stay', he's like 'nah', but two minutes later he's back fighting anyway. Felt like the kind of clumsy-footed, immediately 180-ing plotting that would be ironed out in subsequent drafts, but here was allowed to stay, presumably because (as has been suggested) the frantic timescale of getting this thing out meant there simply wasn't time to give the script the attention it deserved. I've seen Michael Arndt interviewed about the struggles he had in his initial draft, big things like 'when should Luke appear?' and here's Lawrence Kasdan on how it was decided pretty much at the casting that Phasma could be a woman:

Quoted Text Kasdan had just recounted the whirlwind process of writing The Force Awakens, where he came onboard after a script from original writer Michael Arndt had been thrown out. Hundreds of people had already begun working on the film, and time was of the essence: All these top-tier technicians would be marooned without a compelling document to guide them. 'We were just casting about for all the characters,' said Kasdan, who conceived with Abrams a set of new, younger adventurers that would become entangled with old-guard Star Wars figures like Han Solo and Princess Leia. 'I mean, we were making them up at that moment, as costuming and everything else was happening! It's not like there was a finished script sitting around for months.'

Sounds like a bit of a mess, tbh.

Quoted from bert The first half of this thread is a joy to read.  Great thoughts on this film from peers with interesting opinions, better than any review I've read. It would be nice to steer this back on topic, if we could.  Haters who have not even seen the film sweeping in with blustery, judgmental proclamations serve little purpose.  The second half of this thread is kind of tedious, derailing a conversation I was quite enjoying.

Mea culpa, and you're probably right. 'Originality in Hollywood' is another, ultimately pointless conversation. Happy to keep discussing TFA from a screenwriting standpoint with anyone who wants to contribute! This feels a bit like old-skool Script Club, which is nice. (Also helps there are clear flaws, ha.)

Yeah, the Han Solo disappointment isn't going way.


The incident needed to be bigger and have more meaning, if nothing else.

Maybe Ren was about to push the button to destroy all those planets...a test set up by Snoke... and Solo had to step forward to delay him, he fails.

This pushes Ren further to the dark-side, but Solo dies a particularly heroic death trying to save billions.

Instead he just dies, for no particular reason. Other than the fact he wanted to die in ROTJ because he doesn't like the character.

Oh well.  

Shouldn't they have just delayed filming, gone behind schedule, so that they could do the right thing by their millions of fans and deliver a story worthy of spending hundreds of millions of dollars?

What I see from every review is the same thing. The story has weaknesses. As is to be expected from a hastily written script. But this is forgiveable because of a love for the franchise.

A lot to be said for idolisation. Not sure if that's the right word, come to think of it... but it'll do.

Going to see it tomorrow...excited.

I'll then read this thread.

What I would say, this feels different to other series. It's revisiting, with some same cast, where we last were when we were young.er. (plus a few years no doubt)

I'm a Bond fan but spectre left me deflated and almost on the side of 'it's had its days'. Let's hope this one makes me want to see another

They got a lot of things right, nevertheless there were a lot of weak moments.

The monsters coming from nowhere. And what was it about that red haired guy. I was just waiting for Kylo to put him into his place...

Then I completely dislike that Luke Skywalker, the son of a desert planet, chooses a New Zealand coastline spot for his rest. It's like choosing look instead of narration.

There was already so much backstory but they still couldn't accomplish coherence.


The positive: I liked the opening. I loved the scenes around the lightsaber. It's such a powerful weapon that it can uncover memories and myths. That all felt authentic and very original in case of story.

What I also bought completely; despite it is cheesy of course; was the Solo speech about the Jedi, and that all of it is true.

That 100% felt like one of, let's say, Yoda's speeches,

when we realize there's a fundamental conflict about existence in that future world.

That moment I wished they do this the whole movie along. Pure goosebump feeling.

The biggest problem with this 'new' film ( and I guess the prequels to a degree) is that Lucas should've finished them years ago. Episode 7 should've come out in say, 1987 or so. Then the next 2 by 1993 so it was all done and dusted.

That woulda kept the actors fresh and still relatively young. But Ol George was a bit of an odd one as I noted in a bio about him a few months back.

Any way it's here now and it's gonnna cop good and bad reviews like any film.

Quoted from stevie Any way it's here now and it's gonnna cop good and bad reviews like any film.

More good than bad. And we get at least 2 more movies to look forward to. I think it was 200 mil well spent.

I wonder if they change their naming system once they reach episode 100
Seriously, I think it's sad to see all those remakes and forced sequels again and again. Not just with Star Wars but with all these franchises. Be creative guys, give us something new. These films feel like a 20 year old car with a new painting which is offered for the full price again. Just my opinion.