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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Screenwriting Discussion    Screenwriting Class  ›  Breaking "The Rules" Moderators: George Willson
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Martin
Posted: March 18th, 2008, 5:05pm Report to Moderator
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I don't post much round here these days but when I do pop in it's usually the same old topics being discussed in the review threads. Only write what can be seen, lose the flowery prose, never, EVER, use the word "we", cut those witty asides, don't use transitions, don't direct the camera, don't write emotions, or anything beyond "the visual" in your descriptive passages.

Now, I know these rules are important to for the beginning writer, and they definitely helped me to develop a writing style that's at least half decent, but I think there comes a time when strict adherence to the rules does little but hold you back.

I've read scripts for an agency, spec scripts from repped writers, most of them bad, some of them good, and a few hidden gems. Not one of these scripts followed all the so called rules people are preaching to spec writers. Also, not one of them lived or died by their formatting quibbles or style choices. Scripts live and die by the quality of the writing and, most importantly, the quality of the story.

Great writing is great writing and it will always stand out from the crowd.

I can't help feeling that writers are being held back by the myths that propagate screenwriting forums. No producer is going to throw your script in the trash because you mentioned an emotion in your description, or because you used the word "we", or because you felt a match cut might be appropriate for a scene transition.

They're going to throw your script in the trash because the writing sucks, or the story sucks, or the characters suck.

One way to ensure your writing doesn't suck is to develop a strong voice. And this is where I think the "rules" are holding people back. People follow them to a T, and spend more time worrying about what's allowed, than whether what their writing is actually any good. The writing becomes mechanical, lifeless, insipid.

Some of the best specs I've read while working as a reader were the ones that took liberties with the rules, where the writer their voice shine through, rules be damned.

Here's an example first page of a script I'm reading at the moment:

--------------------------------------------------------------
EXT. PRIVATE AIRPORT -- DAY 1

Dark, gray day. TWO CORPORATE JETS idling on the runway. Big
jets, engines whining, faced-off across a hundred yards of
blacktop.

TWO LONE FIGURES -- one from each plane -- marching toward the
empty middle in SUPER-SLO-MOTION...

ON THE LEFT -- THE BURKETT & RANDLE JET. The famous blue- onred
B&R logo tattooed across its frame. AN ANXIOUS GROUP OF
EMPLOYEES -- ASSISTANTS, VICE PRESIDENTS, FLIGHT CREW -- all
gathered near the step-ramp, watching HOWARD TULLY, their
beloved CEO, striding off into the breach. TULLY the legendary
titan. The mythic boardroom shogunate.

ON THE RIGHT -- THE EQUIKROM JET. Slick and aggressive. Silver
and green. ANOTHER WORRIED ENTOURAGE gathered at the ramp,
watching RICHARD "SICK DICK" GARSIK rushing forward into noman's-
land. GARSIK the buccaneer CEO. A corporate carnivore in
his prime. Hypervisionary. Hypereffective. Hyperactive.

CREDITS ROLLING as this slow-motion encounter ripens. And no,
this will not be a cordial union of peers. Both men yelling --
screaming -- as they draw closer. Words lost beneath the roar
of the turbines. Arms waving. Toe-to-toe. The Finger In The
Face. The Belly Bump. The Huff and Puff. The Touch-Me-One-More-
Time until...

A punch is thrown.

Even the majestic influence of slow-motion can't pretty this up.
It's an instant, ugly, awkward playground brawl. And as TULLY
and GARSIK begin rolling on the runway, as those TWO TERRIFIED
ENTOURAGES break ranks and start their slow-motion sprint toward
the battle, as the CREDITS CONCLUDE...

------------------------------------------------------------------

Rules broken all over the place but you can't deny this guy can write. I'd take this over the mechanical stuff any day.

How about this one:

------------------------------------------------------------------

INT. HIGH SPEED TRAIN - MORNING

COLTER jolts awake. Sunlight hits his face.

He blinks. A stunned beat. He's disoriented.

Slowly he turns his head to one side...

PASSENGERS. Filling most of the seats. Office workers on their morning commute to the city.

Turning the other way, he's confronted with a window. Trees flash by, splitting the rising sunlight into a hypnotic strobe pattern.

Colter looks to be thirty years old. A military buzz cut. A disciplined physique, lean and spare, almost gaunt. Skin burnished by years of desert sandstorms and equatorial sun. His expression, prematurely aged by combat, is perpetually wary, sometimes predatory, accustomed to trouble.

Despite his military bearing, Colter wears a button down shirt and navy sports coat. On his wrist is a digital watch. It reads 7:40 a.m.

He swallows. A strange, creeping panic.

He has no idea where he is.

-----------------------------------------------------

Less rule breaking here but I'm sure some people would have a field day with the character introduction. Can't argue with the quality of writing though. Who wouldn't keep reading after that first page?

So, is it time to stop preaching the rules and start preaching good writing?

Discuss
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Grandma Bear
Posted: March 18th, 2008, 5:47pm Report to Moderator
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I agree and I admit to have been complaining about people not following the rules when posting comments on scripts. After having read your post, I believe I resorted to make those comments, because the stories were often bad themselves...

I've read some awesome scripts that just made the pages fly by and if I had been asked afterwards how the format was, I wouldn't have been able to answer, because it didn't matter to me.

You are so right about a reading a good story. They suck you in immediately and things like format rules becomes a non entity (hope that's the right word). I've also been talking to a bunch of filmmakers lately (even been asked to write for some) and ALL of them has told me they couldn't care less about format... As long as they understand and can follow the story.  This makes it hard though for us newcomers (love bert btw) because we're constantly told to stick rigidly to the rules otherwise no one will read our tuff.

Anyway, good post and I agree with you, but I might still offer some suggestions if I feel it can help the writer.

I know I contradict myself all the time...



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James McClung
Posted: March 18th, 2008, 6:28pm Report to Moderator
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I think you need to know the rules and why the rules are there before you can break them. If you know the rules then you know how to break them. That's the way I feel.

Is that you, Pia? Welcome back.


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ABennettWriter
Posted: March 18th, 2008, 6:53pm Report to Moderator
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HI PIA! It's good to see you back.

Back on topic. A writer needs to know and understand the basics before he can experiment. I know those two scripts weren't written by a 15 year old kid in twenty minutes. They were written by experienced, smart writers, who know their craft.

Sometimes a script will be posted here and it's covered in mistakes, but there's a good story. So, we do what we can to help. We tell them, "Maybe you shouldn't do this, or that", etc, and, if he's serious about the work, he'll rewrite it, using those guidelines.

Nine out of ten times, it'll be a better script, because, with the basics covered, he can write the story and we can read a good script.

Once when you know the rules can you break them.
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bert
Posted: March 18th, 2008, 9:31pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Martin
So, is it time to stop preaching the rules and start preaching good writing?


That would be great if this were a board full of experienced writers, but the fact is, there are plenty of people throwing up their work without so much as a clue.

Part of the reason the board exists (I think, at least) is to force-feed the so-called "rules" to those folks.  I mean, there is a clear difference between bending the rules -- or even flaunting the rules -- and a gawd-awful mess on the page.

I would also point out that none of your fine examples has a single "we see" buried in its prose.  Sure, I'll use 'em once in a great while, but you can recognize over-reliance on that phrase when you see it.

But who is against good writing?  I always have the most fun when I am breaking the rules, and enjoy spotting it in the works of others.  And people will criticize occasionally, but so what?

I read an opening fade just a few days ago that broke a zillion rules and was just brilliant.  And I told him so.

The first words of the script were, "FADE M*****F*****!", and I laughed my ass off at its sheer audacity.  It is a shame the remainder of the script failed to deliver on such a clever grabber.

But I do agree with your broader point, Martin, and I too grow weary of reviews that have nothing to offer but, "read some scripts and learn format".

There has been a plague of those recently, and I will consider deleting those if they have nothing more to offer the writer than that tired cliche.

(p.s. Thanks, me.  That's very sweet of you)


Hey, it's my tiny, little IMDb!

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bert  -  March 18th, 2008, 9:42pm
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Mr.Ripley
Posted: March 18th, 2008, 10:12pm Report to Moderator
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There should be a mix of the two: rules and no rules. Like the convential way of writing a scene should be kept but the description should have some flexibility. Gone to the Wind was written in past tense but it held the convential scene writing.

Gabe


Just Murdered by Sean Elwood (Zombie Sean) and Gabriel Moronta (Mr. Ripley) - (Dark Comedy, Horror) All is fair in love and war. A hopeless romantic gay man resorts to bloodshed to win the coveted position of Bridesmaid. 99 pages.
https://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-comedy/m-1624410571/
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Shelton
Posted: March 18th, 2008, 10:37pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from bert

There has been a plague of those recently...


**If you don't like swearing, don't even bother reading my post, because it's going to contain some**

Amen, brother, and frankly, I'm tried of reading these pieces of feedback.  I think some people need to get their heads out of the fucking screenwriter's bible and concentrate on writing a good, compelling script.  All too often I see these format Nazis harping on about shit that in the grand scheme of things doesn't mean a whole lot, but then when you go in to read one of their scripts, what do you get?

A perfectly formatted, boring as hell, cookie cutter script.

"Oh, well, I didn't use "we" or write what couldn't be filmed, or blah blah blah."

Who gives a shit?   Your script almost made me want to hang myself.  For fuck's sake, if you had half a brain, you may have broken some of the rules in the hopes that someone may have found your script mildly interesting because you chose to write one of your descriptions in a colorful manner.

Honestly, I really don't know how else to put this, and I could truly give two shits and a stroke about what some of the "pro" writers on other boards say, because I think they're full of shit as well.

IT DOESN'T MATTER.

As long as you're not a complete jackass about it,  everything should be aces.  Moderation is key.    

Whatever, write how you want.  If I happen to read your script, take comfort in the fact that I'll do my damnedest to concentrate on just the story, unless you throw out a really bad formatting error.  Then I'll try to be as tactful as I can about it, because I used to be one of those people that called out format stuff, but realized it was ultimately useless.  Either you're a good writer and you figure out what you can and can't get away with, or you hang out, read other people's scripts, and give them your opinion about what they can and can't get away with.  What's the old saying?  "Those who can, do, and those who can't, teach?"

Other than that, fuck it.  Those contests you don't win, don't mean shit, and just about every student filmmaker that passes up your script because they don't care for your writing, well, they just end up breaking the heart of some other schmuck when they ultimately don't follow through.

I could literally harp on about this for days, and point out a few things that strictly adhering to these so called rules cost me, but I won't, because I'm sure that I'm not quite done in this thread yet.

Keep on keepin' on, and Happy Hanukkah.


Shelton's IMDb Profile

"I think I did pretty well, considering I started out with nothing but a bunch of blank paper." - Steve Martin
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Takeshi
Posted: March 18th, 2008, 11:30pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Shelton


**If you don't like swearing, don't even bother reading my post, because it's going to contain some**

Amen, brother, and frankly, I'm tried of reading these pieces of feedback.  I think some people need to get their heads out of the fucking screenwriter's bible and concentrate on writing a good, compelling script.  All too often I see these format Nazis harping on about shit that in the grand scheme of things doesn't mean a whole lot, but then when you go in to read one of their scripts, what do you get?

A perfectly formatted, boring as hell, cookie cutter script.

"Oh, well, I didn't use "we" or write what couldn't be filmed, or blah blah blah."

Who gives a shit?   Your script almost made me want to hang myself.  For fuck's sake, if you had half a brain, you may have broken some of the rules in the hopes that someone may have found your script mildly interesting because you chose to write one of your descriptions in a colorful manner.

Honestly, I really don't know how else to put this, and I could truly give two shits and a stroke about what some of the "pro" writers on other boards say, because I think they're full of shit as well.

IT DOESN'T MATTER.

As long as you're not a complete jackass about it,  everything should be aces.  Moderation is key.    

Whatever, write how you want.  If I happen to read your script, take comfort in the fact that I'll do my damnedest to concentrate on just the story, unless you throw out a really bad formatting error.  Then I'll try to be as tactful as I can about it, because I used to be one of those people that called out format stuff, but realized it was ultimately useless.  Either you're a good writer and you figure out what you can and can't get away with, or you hang out, read other people's scripts, and give them your opinion about what they can and can't get away with.  What's the old saying?  "Those who can, do, and those who can't, teach?"

Other than that, fuck it.  Those contests you don't win, don't mean shit, and just about every student filmmaker that passes up your script because they don't care for your writing, well, they just end up breaking the heart of some other schmuck when they ultimately don't follow through.

I could literally harp on about this for days, and point out a few things that strictly adhering to these so called rules cost me, but I won't, because I'm sure that I'm not quite done in this thread yet.

Keep on keepin' on, and Happy Hanukkah.


Well said, Mike. Your spelling and grammar was spot on, but you probably should have broken up the dialogue with a bit more action.

But seriously, here's a relevant passage from the book “Me and You and Memento and Fargo”


Quoted Text
    
As Steve Steve Buscemi suggests, the manual approach can be inhibiting as well as constricting through an over emphasis on plot structure at the expense of character. In addition it only guarantees that your screenplay will end up being conventional.
All truly independent films manage to provide some element of novelty (whether in terms of form or subject matter) that can't be reduced to a set of rules. As Jaramusch puts it, "There are no rules. There are as many ways to make a film as there are potential filmmakers. It's an open form" This is not to suggest that screenwriting is better mastered by fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants approach. Screenwriters need to have a broad understanding of the entire spectrum of narrative procedures available to them. Real innovation in screenwriting, as the various American independent films in this study boldly attest, comes not from ignorance of narrative film conventions, but from being able to see beyond their limitations.  


  

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bert  -  March 19th, 2008, 2:53am
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The Working Screenwriter
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Murphy
Posted: March 19th, 2008, 1:56am Report to Moderator
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Mike, fantastic post, I like the cut of your jib!

I am not going to add anything more to this conversation, I would rather hear what the experienced writers think, so looking forward to more posts on this thread, so please people let's hear yer'.

Me, how nice to see you back around!


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bert
Posted: March 19th, 2008, 7:39am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Shelton
A perfectly formatted, boring as hell, cookie cutter script.


Wow, who woke up Shelton haha.

Yes, as another reformed junkie that has recently pulled the formatting needle from my arm, I will chime in and agree with just about everything Mike has put forth here.

But with the caveat that there are some instances where correction is warranted.  There are still tons of people on here who center thier dialogue and use crazy fonts -- and that is the kind of stuff I am talking about.

Endless arguments about the small stuff have become tedious, however.

If you have absolutely nothing to say about a script other than "bad formatting", then let the script languish without posts.

Should the author eventually emerge from the shadows to ask, "Why is nobody reading my script?", then, maybe it is time to give him something specific, and not just "read some scripts."


Hey, it's my tiny, little IMDb!
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dogglebe
Posted: March 19th, 2008, 9:15am Report to Moderator
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It's one thing to experiment with format, if it brings a unique and desired flavor of the script.  But it's another thing to format something because of ignorance. The Fade motherfucker heading would've been great if the scene opened up to something like the firefight scene in Smokin' Aces.  Unfortunately, it opened to two people talking on a beach.

If you're going to break the rules, learn them first.  Know what you're breaking and have a reason for breaking them.  If you're sending your script to Hollywood and they see bad formatting, that's a big strike against.  He'll know what's experimental and amateur writing.


Phil
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Shelton
Posted: March 19th, 2008, 10:12am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from bert


But with the caveat that there are some instances where correction is warranted.  There are still tons of people on here who center their dialogue and use crazy fonts -- and that is the kind of stuff I am talking about.


Ah yes, the Times New Roman rainbow.  This is one of the bad formatting errors I was talking about that would warrant pointing out.



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Tierney
Posted: March 19th, 2008, 10:34am Report to Moderator
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I think I get what Martin is saying and to me it has less to do with writer’s breaking rules and more to do with writers learning to breathe a little.  I read scripts intermittently on this site.  I rarely finish those features that I do start.  My main problem is that most scripts on this site are composed.  Not written but composed.  It’s a lot like reading a 9th grade essay.  You’ve got your references, your page count and your font size.  But there’s little that qualifies as writing.  

Technical elements are designed to aid the storytelling.  You set up your sluglines and then you try to write something amazing between FADE IN and FADE OUT.  You can talk about story all you want but a two-year old can tell a story.  It’s how you write the story that matters.

The whole rule that you only write what you can show onscreen has been taken to the point that any sort of figurative language has been tossed.  Characters aren’t described; they’re just inventoried as “20s and handsome”.  Locations are just like something from a real estate advert.

You’ve got roughly 6000 lines in a feature.  You’ve got to feed your actors and your art department and your DP and your director.  And you’re not going to do it by offering up workmanlike and lifeless prose.  

“The extensive grounds of the school are surrounded by high hedgerows.  Nothing seems to connect it with the rest of the world except a single grey ribbon of road.”(Alex Garland) or “The school which is surrounded by a high hedgerow is the only building in sight”.  Which would you rather read?

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Tierney  -  March 19th, 2008, 10:38am
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dogglebe
Posted: March 19th, 2008, 11:01am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Tierney
You’ve got roughly 6000 lines in a feature.  You’ve got to feed your actors and your art department and your DP and your director.  And you’re not going to do it by offering up workmanlike and lifeless prose.  

“The extensive grounds of the school are surrounded by high hedgerows.  Nothing seems to connect it with the rest of the world except a single grey ribbon of road.”(Alex Garland) or “The school which is surrounded by a high hedgerow is the only building in sight”.  Which would you rather read?



You can stil be colorful in your descriptions without breaking the rules.

JANICE places the bowl of stew in front of TOM.  He looks at it, frightened.


can also be written:

JANICE places the bowl of stew in front of TOM.  He looks at swirling pool of sickly color and immediately goes pale.  Sheer, primal horror can be seen in his eyes.


but it shouldn't be written this way:

We see JANICE place a bowl of stew in front of TOM.

CLOSE UP--

on his eyes as horror pierces his soul and this bowl of crap stares his down.  He thinks back to the time when he got sick eating that Philly cheese steak from that kosher deli.  WTF was he thinking?  Kosher deli?  Jesus Christ!


Another thing that people should remember is that the majority of us are trying to go pro with this writing-thing.  For the most part, we recognize the rules of script format.  Going against them is like purposely blowing a red light during your driver's test because you want to stick it to the man.  It's still wrong.


Phil
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