Quoted from Andrew First off, could someone please send me the script. Thanks.

I won't say your comments aren't valid. They are. But if you'd actually read the script, you might understand where our indignation is coming from.

Quoted from Andrew This guy is getting his work produced - the vast majority of people here are not. We can explain away this inconvenient fact on 'luck', or just calculate some basic factors: he has talent and is able to write with a market in mind.

This means absolute dick to me. Just because someone has success doesn't mean they have talent and frankly, I don't think it's hard to write with a market in mind.

As it happens, Whedon does have talent and has managed to garner a cult following, which is much harder than writing for a market. But to answer your question... yeah, this script deserves a beating. Of course, you'll have to read it to decide for yourself.

And in case you've forgotten... this is Script Club. We're supposed to discuss the script, which we are. Some of us are just a little more... colorful with our words.

Quoted from Andrew So, why write this? Why be a prick to those just expressing their views? 'Cos some of the approaches to reviewing this work is of 'getcha' mentality, and this type of limited scope will forever corner people on the outside looking in.

I don't follow you. Could you clarify please?

Interesting post Andrew...I dare say there might be some truth to it...and I don't exclude myself from that.

But what else can you do other than present honest opinions?

Films are completely subjective. Some people love them, some people hate them. We've disagreed over films in the past, I'm sure we will again.

I remember reading Cindy's post on here about the Script Club, she was saying that she wanted it to be a discussion looking at scripts and gleaming info. about what makes a successful script...what we can learn from these scripts that have been bought that are lacking from our own scripts. A very noble and professionally minded aim.

The problem is that the objective quality of a script (if there is such a thing) is almost irrelevant to success. There are films that win the Silver Bear at the Berlin festival, films considered the best of the best by film critics that appear in a handful of cinemas and are pulled after a week because no-one has gone to see them.

Then there are films that are criticallty panned, that I hear audiences saying how unutterably terrible they are (Iron Man 2, Spiderman 3, 2012 etc) that make an absolute fortune.

Is the best asset of a script its quality...or its marketablity?

I think what I'm trying to say is that you are right about being able to write for a market...that's really all there is to it. You write for an audience aged between 10 and 25. That's the demographic the big companies are looking at... 10-25.

Take a moment to think what that means for the type of films that the mainstream is looking for. Stuff that can be understood by children. You're writing films for people who have only just grown out of Winnie the Pooh.

So when I review 2012 and say it's like it's been written by a 12 year old...to a company trying to get as much money as possible from an audience..that's probably a good thing.

Now... it does sound arrogant and grandiose to dismiss a writers/filmmakers very successful work in such a way...but what's the alternative? Mediocrity sells.

What's that old saying about no-one ever went broke by underestimating the American audience? You can extrapolate that across the Western world.

The average person has an IQ of 100. You make a film geared just towards the average mind...half the population won't be able to understand it. Write it for people who have an IQ of 50...pretty much near-retarded or mentally handicapped and everyone can understand it...more chance of making money.

That sounds horrible, I know..but I think it's pretty close to the truth. The core goal of most big film companies is to make more money from their investments than they could by gambling on the stock exchange.

So...you write for an audience of 10-25 year olds. You pick high concept, high stakes stories, pick a well known genre...and then you network like hell...move to L.A, pitch your work, get to know eveyone in the field (there are only a handful of people whose responsibility it is to procure scripts) etc.

I've got far more constructive things to say...but I'll leave that till later.

Ultimately the goal of big companies is to get you in the cinema seat. Once you are there...what you think of the film only matters in the terms of word of mouth sales. If they can fill the cinemas quickly enough that doesn't even matter...they've already got their money.

Gimmicks, catch phrases, interesting posters, enough action to put together an interesting trailer etc etc these things are probably more important than how good the story is. Once you've handed over your money to the cashier...what difference does it make if the film is any good?

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films Is the best asset of a script its quality...or its marketablity?

It all depends on what you want to do with your writing? Me, I'm not David Lynch. I don't think anything I write is all that inaccessible and for the most part, I write in the horror/thriller genre which is such a huge market that it'd be a waste of time worrying about whether or not it will sell. So I concentrate on the quality.

I also think it's a waste of time worrying about marketability in general. I agree that mediocrity sells and that the average movie goer is retarded and that if you shot for the lowest common denominator, you might have a better chance in the long run. But I think it's more complicated than that. The industry is way too fickle and unpredictable to try and come up with the perfect formula to sell. It just doesn't work that way. Just because you read a ton of Hollywood screenwriting books doesn't mean you have a better chance of "making it."

And what is making it anyway? Hollywood? News flash! It's not the only fucking film industry out there. There's all sorts of ways in. It's not an easy business at any level, needless to say, but just because you can't make it to Hollywood doesn't mean you can't be successful in the industry. That's why the term "independent film" exists in the first place.

I think the most important thing is that you don't have to write a bad script to sell and you don't have to write an art house script to tell a good story. So I don't think it's all that simple. But personally, I think you'll get a lot further if you care about the work you write because that magic screenplay formula that's gonna make you a profit is probably going to elude you for a while.

...

Back to the script in question. I don't think it was written for the lowest common denominator. Joss Whedon already makes a ton of money and has a huge cult following. He doesn't have to worry about that bullshit. I think he and Goddard really wanted to tell this story. I just don't think they had the best intentions.

I do not think anybody sets out to intentionally make a bad movie, anymore than somebody says, "I am going to write a script that totally sucks".

Sometimes it turns out that way, but everybody involved must have felt there was some merit to the project at the time.

The script in question -- I think Joss and his buddy were joking around with each other when they wrote this -- they knew it wasn't Chinatown -- and they probably thought what they had here was a pretty good draft.

And it is alright.  Flawed, for sure, but there are plenty of usable ideas there.

And I can tell you for a fact Joss does not give a flying fart about his formatting haha.

SPOILER: This horror script contains a few good scenes, cliches, plot holes, and an over the top ending.

I liked this.

It was an interesting take on horror movies. What if the characters in a horror movie were being manipulated by high tech lab guys, who were themselves being controlled by monsters? Not bad for a premise. Not a bad way to meld sci-fi into horror. Alien/s being the best.

I just read "Serenity" by JW (great dialog and full of "we see," asides, and camera angles) and am also a big fan of his TV series work.  

I wondered why we would pick a script by a director known for writing with all kinds of idiosyncracies for review in a SC? Just saying. What will we learn from this that will benefit spec script writers? Of course, we can learn what not to do.

The force field added a sci-fi "gotcha" moment, the purge botton was similar to how JW ended the Angel series by throwing every evil creature at Angel and his entourage. Angel "I'll take the dragon... " Didn't like it then either but the creature gallery will be great spectacle.

Besides the giant human hand might just be flipping us the bird.

Gary

Wow, lots to comment on.

First and most glaring, though, is our old buddy Andrew.

Andrew, I find it very odd that you haven't read the script, have absolutely no clue what it is that we're all talking about, yet you feel the need to write a long excerpt, bashing us for bashing a piece of shit script.

What gives, man?  I honestly don't get it.

You know, reading and reviewing pro scripts goes 2 ways, actually.  Kind of like reading and reviewing reveled SS writer's scripts.

Most are going to say how great it is, how much they love it, and how fucking talented the writer is.  They will play up the positives and ignore the negatives and mistakes.  They'll say things like, "they don't need to follow any rules", "they don't give a shit about formatting", "they can make up their own style, and it's so great I'm going to write like that also".

But others, like myself and a few others in here, will say what they truly think, whether or not, it's a seasoned, highly successful pro they're going up against.

There have been a number of these Script Clubs where that has been going on, and IMO, it's complete BULLSHIT!  I don't give a fuck who wrote a script.  If it sucks, it fucking sucks.  If it's good, that's great.

The way you're acting is the exact problem in Hollywood now.  No one wants to look at anything from anyone they don't know.  Yet, they'll jump on board anything a "successful" pro churns out.

It's crap actually and it really does piss me off.  It doesn't make me want to purposely bash a pro's script or movie.  It's nothing like that at all.  I'm never going to follow a crowd that I don't believe in, and I'm never going to tell anyone something's good, when I don't think it is.

I would have preferred a darker ending. Like this was a reality show. People had become so jaded to violence and such that it is now seen as entertainment. Kind of like the new Romans.

The all out monster thing ruined it for me. Not to mention the hand.

Andrew, have you got the script yet? If not, pm me your e-mail address and I'll send it on.  

Quoted from Dreamscale Most are going to say how great it is, how much they love it, and how fucking talented the writer is.  They will play up the positives and ignore the negatives and mistakes.  They'll say things like, "they don't need to follow any rules", "they don't give a shit about formatting", "they can make up their own style, and it's so great I'm going to write like that also".

This is totally on point. Except... why should we bother talking about format in the Script Club? I thought the whole point it was created was to be able to discuss scripts frankly and not as writers (to a point). Am I to understand that while I was away, we reverted back to the same old shit? What's the point then?

Also, Hollywood writers can't produce a readable script worth a goddamn. Look at Tarantino. I've read Kill Bill and Inglourious Basterds. They were twice as bad as this one was. In fact, I'm astounded at how he can write such brilliant dialogue yet put such awkward, stilted and un-witty descriptions on paper. Of course, all the shit gets lost when they translate to the screen... well, at least in Tarantino's case it does. Let's hope the final act doesn't make it through test screenings. I'm pretty sure whatever marketing research the studios try to fill in the blanks with will be better than the evil gods bullshit.

Quoted from Grandma Bear I would have preferred a darker ending. Like this was a reality show. People had become so jaded to violence and such that it is now seen as entertainment. Kind of like the new Romans.

I don't think they should've gone for anything dark and stuck to the tone of the story. I was under the impression that it was just a production company trying to make horror movies using real people to make them scarier or something. A simple idea. Wouldn't have been great but I don't think they would've been able to "wow" me with anything, really. I think it would've suited the films needs.

I'm not really making any definitive points here...just adding to the discussion...and pointing out that merit is subjective...and that different mindsets have different ideas of merit.

I've been recently networking quite a lot and have been speaking to people who have received funding from different sources for their films...from major film companies..down to individual investors who have nothing to do with the film industry.

There's a guy called Martin Wallace who has just made his first feature called Nowhere Fast.

http://www.independentexposure.com/filmmaker/987/

He got his money by guaranteeing the money back..plus ten percent. He is actually contractually obliged to pay back their investment plus ten percent..so he either makes a profit on his film...or he'll have to work for two or three years to pay it off.

Madness IMHO...I'd never do that myself...but the point is this. How many of the investors asked to read the script do you think?

If you guessed zero...you'd be right. All they care about is that they'll get their money back...plus a bit more.

Now this is an extreme example...and a risk I can't honestly believe he'd take...but it highlights an important point I think. A lot of Producers/Investors don't claim to know whether a script is good or not...that's not their job.

They look at things that aren't left to chance: Demographics, genre, who is attached to the project (Actors first, behind the camera second), they look for a unique selling point...something that allows them to market it easily. These are things they can make an objective judgement about...who is the audience? Do we know how to reach the audience? etc etc

They are businessmen...not filmmakers or critics. They might read a treatment..but often they won't even bother with the script itself..that's the Directors concern.

These are the people who buy your scripts. Whatever level you are at..you need to know what they want.  

So marketability is important and understanding that the film industry, at any level, is a business just like any other is an important point. A critical one actually IMO.

The lack of understanding that a lot of writers, actors, filmmakers etc have about marketing and business is what separates them from the successful ones...not talent IMHO.

I know actors and have auditioned actors that are quite famous who work all the time, but can't act even slightly...almost entirely devoid of talent..but they know how to network and sell themselves. I've auditioned others who have immense talent but never get any work because they don't move in the right circles.

Same thing with filmmakers...I've known incredibly talented Directors who wonder why they can't get funding from major production houses when they are pitching autobiographical stories of growing up on the streets of Paris as an immigrant to Dreamworks...just don't seem to have a grasp on reality at all.


Anyway...the relevance to this particular script: Look at the marketing campaign already under way...using the old Cabin in the Woods and the horror conventions as a tool to garner interest. The core story is a marketing campaign in itself. The script is full of stuff that will look great in a quick advert...the "horror film to end all horror films"...that's Whedon's pitch right there....and is a marketing hook in its own right.

He just totally understands the business...huge, epic demon hands coming out of the ground to sell the story on the big screen..but only at the very end so that they can keep the budget down.

If you keep ticking the boxes, you give yourself more chance.

Like I said before, I think if it's filmed properly it will be quite a fun film...maybe on the level of Bloody Valentine 3D which I enjoyed watching a lot in 3D. i quite enjoyed reading it...even though I think it lacks any real artisitc merit...I can see that it has potential entertainment value and that it has some sales potential.

Andrew,

I guarantee that you will be just as frustrated as the rest of us when you read the script. It is the worst ending I've ever read in any script in my life, and I'm a BIG fan of Joss Whedon. He's one of the few writers in Hollywood who's work I have to own at any cost. I think he's great, but there is no way I could defend that ending. It still makes me angry just thinking about it and I really hope they change it before the cinema release as I will be going to see this anyway.

I don't think the rest of the script is bad in any way. Scream is far superior when it comes to taking the mick out of the horror cliches but I think it could still work here, and may come across better onscreen if the cast does a decent job. I think it was Pia who said they should let the Gods sleep, take them out completely. I agree 100%. If the ending was Marty and Dana breaking into the control room and getting revenge, then this would be a pretty decent movie.

I'm not too bothered about the format because the co-writer is the director so they won't give a damn how it is written. However, it does worry me that there were two good writers on this project and both of them thought the ending was good enough. Maybe the ending was a joke and the script was intentionally leaked. Whedon and his buddy will be killing themseleves with laughter at people like us right now.

Brian

I was following you. I can't say I agreed with everything you were saying but I was definitely following you and you were making some good points until...

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films Same thing with filmmakers...I've known incredibly talented Directors who wonder why they can't get funding from major production houses when they are pitching autobiographical stories of growing up on the streets of Paris as an immigrant to Dreamworks...just don't seem to have a grasp on reality at all.

This all comes back to everyone's mutual chubby for Hollywood and the American film industry.

Jim Jarmusch said he prefers to find investors from outside the States because it's "a good way to avoid a lot of bullshit." He gets final cut and owns the negatives to all his films. He's never been huge in the industry but he's successful enough to make films with Bill Murray and yet he's far from what you'd call marketable. Maybe his name's big enough at this point that he can get investors easy but he certainly didn't start out that way.

So I ask. How do guys like these make it in the industry? They're not writing for a market at all.

Quoted from James McClung I was following you. I can't say I agreed with everything you were saying but I was definitely following you and you were making some good points until... This all comes back to everyone's mutual chubby for Hollywood and the American film industry. Jim Jarmusch said he prefers to find investors from outside the States because it's "a good way to avoid a lot of bullshit." He gets final cut and owns the negatives to all his films. He's never been huge in the industry but he's successful enough to make films with Bill Murray and yet he's far from what you'd call marketable. Maybe his name's big enough at this point that he can get investors easy but he certainly didn't start out that way. So I ask. How do guys like these make it in the industry? They're not writing for a market at all.

I'm talking about the major studioes here and the quote you've put basically agrees with me...he can't be arsed with it so goes elsewhere. He, unlike the Director in my example above, understands the industry and doesn't waste his time and the studioes time pitching incompatible projects to the studioes.

I'm not saying that you can't get funding for stuff that isn't more off the wall...but most people write more genre based stuff....and the majority opinion seems to be that people want to make it in Hollywood as screenwriters (which is where the money is after all).

The independent market is still a market as well. Each company buys and distributes a certain style or type of film. It may be a question of quality for some...they will buy foreign films that win major awards..or whatever, but they all need to make a return on their investment.

Independent film esssentially tries to find a slightly more disparate audience and finds small groups of niche markets in different territories...but the principle is the same. You need to understand their needs and the audience they are looking for.

I think we're agreed then. You absolutely do have to have some marketing sense to survive in this business. In Hollywood or elsewhere. I just wish people wouldn't kid themselves in thinking only Hollywood is "making it." You can't be too much of an artist but you shouldn't compromise your writing either. Just be flexible and aware.

Quoted from Grandma Bear I would have preferred a darker ending. Like this was a reality show. People had become so jaded to violence and such that it is now seen as entertainment. Kind of like the new Romans. The all out monster thing ruined it for me. Not to mention the hand. Andrew, have you got the script yet? If not, pm me your e-mail address and I'll send it on.

To be fair, I think that's been done quite a lot already...or at least a similar twist on the theme.

My Little Eye, Slashers, House of 9, the Condmened, FearDotCom, Untraceable...off the top of my head. There are a few others that I can't remember the name of as well.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films To be fair, I think that's been done quite a lot already...or at least a similar twist on the theme. My Little Eye, Slashers, House of 9, the Condmened, FearDotCom, Untraceable...off the top of my head. There are a few others that I can't remember the name of as well.

I guess I don't watch enough movies!  

I'm interested in hearing all you guys suggestions for a better ending since we all seemed to hate the current one.