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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Screenwriting Discussion    Screenwriting Class  ›  Script Club XIV - Black Swan Moderators: George Willson
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  Author    Script Club XIV - Black Swan  (currently 22319 views)
wonkavite
Posted: July 19th, 2011, 7:03am Report to Moderator
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Okay - take this particular comment with a grain of salt - I haven't read the full script yet.  And I'm a huge fan of the movie.

But having glanced at the first several pages, I'm struck by how much detail and writing go into each description...exactly the sort of thing that would be torn *apart* in any unknown script by most agents, and reviewers at SS.  

(And that's coming from someone who has drastically streamlined her methods of description over the past few scripts.)

Interesting, how the rules go out the window for insiders.  

Which is perhaps understandable, since they're playing from a different vantage point - ie: they already have people interested in reading their material and don't have to compete with 1000 other entries for a glance.

BTW - also took a quick look at the original scripts for Star Wars, a New Hope and Alien last night.  (Two films that I also love.)   Horrendous.  *Way* too much description on the first.  Choppy, inept dialogue and no descriptions on the second.  

Kinda goes to show how much difference a director makes...
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Eoin
Posted: July 19th, 2011, 7:11am Report to Moderator
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Nice chart Ray. Although Blake Snyder divides opinion on the site, his chart on structure is a nice 'template' for a marketable script.



Like I say to myself repeatedly, I wish mine was bigger.
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RayW
Posted: July 19th, 2011, 7:37am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Eoin
Nice chart Ray...  Like I say to myself repeatedly, I wish mine was bigger.

Thank you, sir.

No, the intent of that diagram is primarily to introduce the idea of two constraints.

In order to more effectively achieve context is to add in exactly what Snyder has long demonstrated in that very chart I have right here... !



(Please, for the sake of our relationship, don't tell ANYONE I made you bigger. Eh-VERRRRR!)    




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Eoin
Posted: July 19th, 2011, 7:50am Report to Moderator
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You must have engaged the services of one of those lenghty emails with empty promises that keep making their way to my junk email. Thaks for super sizing me.
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RayW
Posted: July 19th, 2011, 8:19am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from c m hall
Great chart, Ray!  This is going up on the wall where I can see it everyday!

Rockin'!


Quoted from wonkavite
But having glanced at the first several pages, I'm struck by how much detail and writing go into each description...exactly the sort of thing that would be torn *apart* in any unknown script by most agents, and reviewers at SS.

Good morning, Janet!

Yep.

- Darren Aronofsky wanted to film an unspecified story about ballet and ballerinas from years ago.                         
- Independently, Andres Heinz had written a spec screenplay titled THE UNDERSTUDY about an actor's developing delusions about his dark/evil understudy.
- Aronofsky requested his director of development Mark Heyman adapt Heinz's premise to the ballet and ballerina setting to create BLACK SWAN.
                         


This is kinda why I was pushing for a independent film like WINTER'S BONE to be examined, and I know the DVD comes with a very good director commentary (unlike BLACK SWAN) describing many changes from the screenplay.  
I understand a writer/director gets to cut themselves some leeway, so it's not a PURE spec screenplay, but to get investors and professional production cast and crew it's likely Granik did put something remotely professional to paper.

As writers its important to understand the film production processes before we sit down and start dumping hours of homework and consideration into pounding out fantastical, sky's-the-limit screenplays with zero regard as to how this is gonna get done.

Do we wanna write just to write, or write to get something done?

But I do understand that there seems to be only a worthless transcript available of WB, rather than an actual pre-pro screenplay like BS has, so this particular call for examining BS seemed good as any in lieu of that.

FWIW, In all my spare time, I'm considering trying to contact WB's producers/director/writer to see if they could forward a pre-pro screenplay PDF that maybe we could chew on for the next go-round.




Revision History (1 edits)
RayW  -  July 19th, 2011, 8:58am
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Dreamscale
Posted: July 19th, 2011, 10:17am Report to Moderator
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Janet, I'm in total agreement with you.  I stated what you did in quite some detail, showing why the script ran 119 pages, compared to 108 minutes including credits.

It started a huge argument, no one wanted to hear it, and everyone said how absolutely perfect the script was, which made ZERO sense to me.

I think I found like 15 completely wasted pages of orphans, wrylies, and unfilmable asides, and that's on top of the completely and obviously way overwritten prose.

Go figure...
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Grandma Bear
Posted: July 19th, 2011, 10:22am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale
Janet, I'm in total agreement with you.  I stated what you did in quite some detail, showing why the script ran 119 pages, compared to 108 minutes including credits..

And I said the film is exactly the same length as the later draft that I read, 107 pages. Not the 119 pages older draft that you read.  


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Dreamscale
Posted: July 19th, 2011, 10:29am Report to Moderator
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But Pia, the draft that you linked, which in theory means that draft we were all supposed to read, was 119 pages, so I didn't have the luxury of reading whatever draft you did.

Keep in mind other things I brought up about script length vs run-time as well.  First of all, there are credits, which most likely run a whole 5 minutes or so.  But more importantly, this is a simple movie, in terms of sets, minimal action, minimal characters, and minimal dialogue, meaning the run-time should far exceed the script length.
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RayW
Posted: July 19th, 2011, 10:32am Report to Moderator
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Hey, Pia. Could you link us that 107pg PDF, if it's online? Or post it on googdocs? Or just email it to me and I'll post it on goog docs.

From the JGoldsmith interview with Heyman and Heinz combined with your versions and the film I'd like to see the progression first hand.

Thank you!

(And what did anyone on FB have to say about that "Story Constraints" diagram I ginnied up? Ha!)



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Grandma Bear
Posted: July 19th, 2011, 10:35am Report to Moderator
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Cornetto was the one that posted that link. He deleted his original post in this thread and I just copied it. It was my fault for reading the newer script. I had Cornetto's older version and the one I read both on my laptop. When I opened the script and started reading, it didn't occur to me to check which one I was reading. Again, my fault, but it explains why the newer version is closer in length to the film than the older one you guys read. What I'm saying is, the film did not turn out shorter than what you guys read because of orphans and wrylies.


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RayW
Posted: July 19th, 2011, 10:43am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Grandma Bear
What I'm saying is, the film did not turn out shorter than what you guys read because of orphans and wrylies.

I don't believe that for a single moment.

The inclusion or exclusion of orphans and wrylies is CRUCIAL, CRUCIAL, I say! to the theatrical release of the film spawned from the Holy Screenplay Document!

Or at least that's what I gather from watching many director/producer/writer/actor commentaries.
And then there's what the studio budget allowed.
Or the actual scene scouting found releases for.
And then there's the deleted scenes.
And director's cut vs. what the distributor made 'em release.
And then what the MPAA has their dirty finger poke around.
And then what the director fought to have the MPAA leave alone.

The script is Holy.
Thou shalt not deviate from the script.
If you are not against the orphans and wrylies in the script then you are for them and will burn in h3ll for an eternity for your insolence.






Why doesn't anyone believe me when I say your story has gotta have nice bones?


(Hey, where's the "classic" pose of the chick on her knees and elbows with her a$$ up in the air backed up to the lens? I feel robbed.)




Revision History (2 edits; 1 reasons shown)
RayW  -  July 19th, 2011, 10:56am
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Dreamscale
Posted: July 19th, 2011, 11:01am Report to Moderator
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You guys are funny!  

I misquoted here...the draft we read was 129 pages, not 119...big difference!  Huge difference!

How did the draft go from 129 pages to 107 pages?  I bet ya alot of orphans, wrylies, and unfilmables were cut. Hopefully, alot of the overwriting was also axed.
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wonkavite
Posted: July 19th, 2011, 11:27am Report to Moderator
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Jeff -

Having thought it through, I grant you more credit re: overwriting issues than per my previous viewpoint.

Though I'm not quite as allergic to orphans as you are.    

-J
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Grandma Bear
Posted: July 19th, 2011, 11:51am Report to Moderator
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This is the version I read. Black Swan

Regarding being for or against overwriting/orphans/wrylies, I don't think you can accuse me of that. I think my writing borders on terse, but maybe that's just me.  


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Dreamscale
Posted: July 19th, 2011, 12:09pm Report to Moderator
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I'm not accusing you of anything, Pia.

My point is very simple.  If you have 200 orphans in a script, you have 4 extra pages of waste because of it.  If you have 100 wrylies, you have 2 extra pages of waste.  And the list goes on...

It's not rocket science like Ray deals in, it's just very simple math.
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