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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Screenwriting Discussion    Screenwriting Class  ›  Script Club XIV - Black Swan Moderators: George Willson
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  Author    Script Club XIV - Black Swan  (currently 22314 views)
dmc2011
Posted: July 4th, 2011, 11:49am Report to Moderator
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I noticed the Pink thing early on, the jewelry case with the ballarina. In the movie they have her toss all her stuffed animals down the garbage shoot as a way to show her trying to distance herself from her mother, (kind of a normal act) but that part was not in the script, I don't think.

There were so many differences from the script.  Good and Bad.  But the TONE remained the same.  I think.

Someone mentioned earlier that they Natalie Portman probably got too much face time and that Wynona stole the show.  I am not sure I agree.  Wynonas character seemed odd to me,  Crazy herself.  Maybe it supposed to show that all artists are egocentric and crazy.    But that Nina was  unlucky in that she inherited a personality disorder from her mom too.  
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RayW
Posted: July 4th, 2011, 12:05pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from dmc2011
As long as we are discussing food I was wondering why they both had to say PRETTY at the same time about the pink grapefruit.  That really struck me as odd.  How do that move the story forward?  Did it try to form some kind of common ground?


Quoted from Scar Tissue Films
Is that in the script, or in the film?

The "So pretty!!!!" thing is in the film, not in screenplay.
It establishes that although mother and daughter can be pleasant and civil to each other it's only when reciting some sort of canned catch phrases they like to banter back and forth.
Beyond that Mom's constantly berating her daughter about what NINA can and can't do or what she should settle for or forgone absence-of-faith predictions both to her and others (over the phone).

ERICA/MOM's roles are wildly different from script-to-screen.

Maybe 10% in screenplay.
Probably at least >40% of story in the film.




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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: July 4th, 2011, 12:09pm Report to Moderator
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We all see things differently...I've never met someone before who doesn't think there are such things as themes though!

It's totally crazy to me, and goes against the entire development of Art and critical theory.

The film doesn't exactly try and hide what it's about:

                                               Thomas
"Perfection is not just about control. It is also about letting go. Surprise yourself so you can surprise the audience. Transcendence. Very few have it in them.�

Later:

�I knew the White Swan wouldn�t be a problem. The real work would be your metamorphosis into her evil twin.�


Note that he doesn't use the words portrayal or mention her ability to play the part...but talks about her actually metamorphisizing into the evil twin.



There are whole swathes of things that you seem to miss out on...the very core of what the work is about. You really need to study literary techniques such as the ones below to enlighten yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literary_technique

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trope_(literature)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theme_(arts)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theme_(literature)


By comparing what Aronofsky did with the film to what the writer did with the script, you can see a demonstration of it. He chose to have a lesbian sex scene, rather than the scene with Thomas. He removed Beth as being a friend. Greatly enhanced the Mother's role...all to build up the theme that he was interested in bringing out.

If you think he doesn't have an interest in the Occult...watch the Fountain.

Here's what Jackman and Aronofsky said about it:


"The Fountain's theme of fear of death is "a movement from darkness into light, from black to white"[4] that traces the journey of a man scared of death and moving toward it. The film begins with a paraphrase of Genesis 3:24, the Biblical passage that reflects the The Fall of Man. Hugh Jackman emphasized the importance of the Fall in the film: "The moment Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, humans started to experience life as we all experience it now, which is life and death, poor and wealthy, pain and pleasure, good and evil. We live in a world of duality. Husband, wife, we relate everything. And much of our lives are spent not wanting to die, be poor, experience pain. It's what the movie's about."[5] Aronofsky also interpreted the story of Genesis as the definition of mortality for humanity. He inquired of the Fall, "If they had drank from the Tree of Life [instead of the Tree of Knowledge] what would have separated them from their maker? So what makes us human is actually death. It's what makes us special."[6]

Deep stuff that they work hard to get in there.

Read the whole page on the Fountain and witness the lengths he goes to to explore his themes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fountain


Have you ever heard the phrase "Magnum Opus"? I'm guessing you have. Most people don't know what it means:

It means the Great Work...a term from Alchemy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnum_opus_(alchemy)

The transmutation of base metal into gold, and the creation of the Philospopher's Stone to achieve immortality.

It originally had four stages:[1]

nigredo (-putrefactio), blackening(-putrefaction): corruption, dissolution, individuation, see also Suns in alchemy - Sol Niger

albedo, whitening: purification, burnout of impurity; the moon, female

citrinitas, yellowing: spiritualisation, enlightenment; the sun, male;

rubedo, reddening: unification of man with god, unification of the limited with the unlimited.

So...Black to White, To Yellow, To Red.

"However, it is in citrinitas that the Chemical Wedding takes place, generating the Philosophical Mercury without which the Philosopher's Stone, triumph of the Work, could never be accomplished."

The yellow comes from the union of male and female and without it, the Great Work can't be completed.

In the film she is corrupted to Black, then becomes the White again...then becomes Red when she's bleeding.

But she never reaches Enlightenment...so her perfection is hollow and mortal. The nature of fame.

Revision History (2 edits; 1 reasons shown)
Scar Tissue Films  -  July 4th, 2011, 12:38pm
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c m hall
Posted: July 4th, 2011, 12:40pm Report to Moderator
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Another thing that bothered me was Nina stealing from Beth.  Nina tells Beth that she took the things with the hope that it would make her (Nina) more like Beth; perfect.
Beth likely noticed her possessions were missing from her dressing room and likely regarded that as a personal violation, which it was.
Evidently Nina did not intend to torture Beth by continually taking things from her -- she (Nina) seemed surprised that Beth (when she realized that Nina was the thief) became enraged and violent.
I took all that to indicate that Nina is self-centered to the point of mania, but not intentionally mean.
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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: July 4th, 2011, 12:40pm Report to Moderator
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What if the Hokey Pokey, IS what it's all about?

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Regarding them both exclaiming, "Pretty!" at seeing the grapefruit...

This is a very common thing to do. Not only in mother/daughter relationships, but in friendships, period. Now I'm not referring to "the word" itself, I'm referring to the notion of something behind the word.

For example, just the right look at the right time with my husband, and if he's buying the Dewalt drill, "More power!" that's the catch phrase, but it's more than that. We're both thinking the same thing at the same time and it's like a tickle inside with that common ground.

Sandra



A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.
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Dreamscale
Posted: July 4th, 2011, 12:43pm Report to Moderator
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Rick, c'mon...I've never said there is no such thing as theme.

I've actually said that there is theme in everything and someone will always tell us what the theme is and why it's important.

Theme is obviously very universal, and resides in literally everything. To me, it's rather second nature and doesn't matter to me.  I don't look for it.  I don't care about it.  I don't need some deep meaning and theme to appreciate something.

I realize there are those that feel very differently and you're obviously one of those.

I'll use one of my crazy analogies to try and make my point (but I know it most likely won't go over well).

Take the NFL, for example.  Lots of fans...both casual and die hard.  Some understand the game better than others.  It doesn't really matter though, as long as there's enjoyment and interest.  There are others who are not fans, and many are women (not to be discriminating or pigeonhole women into this category).

So, a guy's got his buddies over and they're enjoying a game, and the wifey walks in and makes some comments about not understanding why they want to waste their time watching a bunch of huge guys smashing each other, running up and down the field, etc.

So, the group gets her to sit down and watch for a few minutes.  The first play is a 90 yard bomb for a touchdown.  The men go crazy, while wifey puts her hands in the air and says, no one even covered him!  Why are these guys making so much money...that's ridiculous!

After the ensuing kickoff, the first play from scrimmage is a short screen pass over the middle that goes for another TD. The men go crazy again, and wifey once again throws her hands in the air and says the same thing as before, gets up, and walks away.

She doesn't have a clue why these 2 plays resulted in a TD, because she doesn't know the game and its intricacies.  She's not alone, either, as after each of those plays, they're shown again in slow motion with the TV analyst showing what actually took place and why the player was so open.  These "things" take place on every play...sometimes they work, sometimes, they don't.

Anyone who knows the game, understands that, but many don't really care...they like the excitement...they like rooting for their home team or their favorite players...they like to bet on games...they like the camaraderie.

Bottom line is that it's entertainment, and entertainment is entertaining for various reasons to various people...and not entertaining to others, based on exactly what it is and what it contains.

Explaining the nuances of how plays work to someone who doesn't care about that, doesn't make it higher art, so top speak.  It either works for what it is, or it doesn't, and that's a personal choice.

I understand thematic elements in film just like I understand the nuances of the game of football.  But what I like about film and sports, is the entertainment they provide.  That's all I need.  If someone doesn't understand either, I can explain, but it's not something I'll do for the Hell of it, because to me, it's second nature...it's understood.
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RayW
Posted: July 4th, 2011, 12:53pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from c m hall
Another thing that bothered me was Nina stealing from Beth.  Nina tells Beth that she took the things with the hope that it would make her (Nina) more like Beth; perfect.
Beth likely noticed her possessions were missing from her dressing room and likely regarded that as a personal violation, which it was.
Evidently Nina did not intend to torture Beth by continually taking things from her -- she (Nina) seemed surprised that Beth (when she realized that Nina was the thief) became enraged and violent.
I took all that to indicate that Nina is self-centered to the point of mania, but not intentionally mean.

NINA's quite discreet behavior of taking only her idol's, BETH, small things could be carried a step further.
In LET THE RIGHT ONE IN the child Oskar acquires a small knife to stab a tree in the courtyard as he emulates and quotes the same words of the bully who systematically assaults him.
Why?
Why become that which you love/hate? It helps us understand "where" the other person is coming from.

As much as we'd like to think humans are oh, so much more elevated above animals, we really aren't that much farther along.

Throughout history and across cultures humans have consumed their enemies and worn their furs and talisman's of power to attain their magical strengths.
Same BS goes on today with the black market trade in everything from rhino horn to tiger and bear balls.
And if that seems too silly consider what the economic value is of branded clothes with little alligators, swooshes across t-shits, fan-pop clothes and caps and accessories.
Still there.

NINA has acquired BETH's talismans of power to understand, to emulate, to transcend something NINA is developmentally incapable of.
She must fine a different route.
She can't just play the [expletive] brief role. Oh, no. She has to BECOME! the role.

Uh, yeah... she gets the role down pat, but at a rather steep personal cost.

Guilt is a heavy theme across all humanity.
Not just in fiction, but in real life.



Quoted from Sandra Elstree.
Regarding them both exclaiming, "Pretty!" at seeing the grapefruit...

Bingo.



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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: July 4th, 2011, 1:02pm Report to Moderator
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It's fine that you just watch films for entertainment. That's your choice.

I would strongly disagree that it's just "entertainment".

You don't accept that some things are higher art than others, but it's obvious to me that they are.

Ingmar Bergman's look at existentialism in the Seventh Seal is a completely different form of entertainment to the Hangover.

They are both films, but the similarities end there.

Some writers and filmmakers spend an awful lot of time researching things they put into their scripts...even so far as to assigning colours meaning.

The truly great filmmakers create things that can be watched multiple times and you still make new discoveries.

I love to watch films where you can go and sit for three hours afterwards and discuss what it all meant. I also enjoy films that are simple and essentially pointless.

But they are very different things.

For what it's worth Black Swan was an incredibly tense and interesting film from start to finish, with brilliant cinematography and choreography and it was very entertaining on a base level, but it was also very deep and profound and that makes it all the better.
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Dreamscale
Posted: July 4th, 2011, 1:15pm Report to Moderator
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But, Rick, that's according to you and your personal preferences.

Some film makers spend an awful lot of time researching and getting the minute details down in terms of action, plotting, and details that make the experience come off as "real", which work on a different plain than the thematic issues you crave.

Using colors as elements is great, but it comes down to how each perceives their use for them to work or not.  Black and white can be used in different ways to mean different things...they don't always have to mean the same thing, sometimes, the exact opposite.  Good guys don't always wear white...

Things work on a technical, creative, and thematic level and just because someone points out the technical aspects, and another looks to the thematic, shouldn't discount either one.

You and many others don't seem to care about technical execution in scripts or movies.  I do.  I don't care about the thematic elements, but you do.  Neither is wrong, it's just personal preference.
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: July 4th, 2011, 1:20pm Report to Moderator
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I appreciate all things.

Technical execution is critical in a film.

It's also important in a script, it's just that technical competence can never overcome a poor story.
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dmc2011
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I am working on a story right now and it has story. if there is a story, there is a theme.  There has to be.  Isn't the theme the point of the story.  It should be about something meaningful.

My interpretaton of Black Swan is yes, the good and bad, but not as much as Perfection comes with a price.  Does perfection exist really, and if you are trying to acheive it, you are crazy or will die trying or both.
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RayW
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Quoted from Dreamscale
You and many others don't seem to care about technical execution in scripts or movies.  I do.  I don't care about the thematic elements, but you do.  Neither is wrong, it's just personal preference.

Your perfection would make you a wonderful white swan, Jeff.
But my concern is that you'd make a terrible black swan.  
And in your perfection lays your self destruction.  LOL!



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Dreamscale
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You may appreciate them all but for you, it comes down theme, and what you perceive to be "deep messages and meaning".  You can't tell me this isn't true.

I have no problem admitting that theme is unimportant to me.  I've heard you say countless times that the technical aspects of a script do not come into play and/or can easily be overcome.

I gotta head out to a party, so I'll be out for awhile.  Everyone has their own opinion and to me, the world is a much richer place because of it.
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: July 4th, 2011, 1:50pm Report to Moderator
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It doesn't all come down to theme for me.

That would be absurd.

Otherwise all you'd need is a log-line expressing the theme and nothing else.

I enjoy deep and meaningful films, just as I enjoy films like Friday the 13th remake. But they are very different animals. The same way a MacDonalds is different to high cuisine.

The difference is that with more high brow films the audience needs to be equipped with somewhat more knowledge to understand them.

Technical aspects of a script are largely irrelevant because they simply disappear when you turn the camera on.

No-one ever came out of a cinema and said the slugs were slightly off, or I wasn't sure about the use of that adverb on 13 minutes.
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Grandma Bear
Posted: July 5th, 2011, 10:27am Report to Moderator
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Wow! Lots of posts here. Going to take me awhile to read through them. It's almost as long as the script!!  

Are we past the "first impression" part? Should we move on to plot or have you guys already covered that?

I see in Rick's last post that pesky word "slugs"... I hope this thread didn't turn into another one of those discussions.

Anyway, Holidays are over, I'm hoping to do my part and finish the script today (didn't have time yesterday). Let me know what you people think.  


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