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In any case, I'm well aware that the subplot with Nina and her mother bears no fruit in the script. Maybe there's some significance in calling her mother "Erica" but that's nothing compared to what Erica is in the film. The character in the film is domineering and over-protectice yet in as passive-aggressive a manner as possible. In the script, she's filler. She's barely there thus far and any further would be too late to try and build on her character IMO. Any twist revealing her as Nina's mother would fall flat at this point, even if I'd known nothing about the film thus far.
I agree that the Erica in the script hardly shows in comparison to the film.
Post # 1, on this thread, from you, Pia, is a 129 page Black Swan script, that you told us to read. It's dated 3/25/09 on the title page.
I thought we were all reading the same script draft?
Yeah we were supposed to. the 107 page version I have is dated 10/05/2009...
I don't know what's going on as far as that goes, but we can still discuss the script. Right now I'm interested in if Blake Snyder's formula can be found in BS as well.
Ray! I love your spreadsheet, but let's discuss it here then. What are the Save The Cat beats in BS?
Screenplay or Film?
ACT ONE OPENING IMAGE: SCREENPLAY - Pg 1, We know we're dealing with a ballerina in crisis FILM - Min 1, We know we're dealing with a ballerina in crisis
CATALYST: Pg 8, Swan Lake will be cast with someone new for both the white & black swan roles. Mins 8 - 10, Swan Lake will be cast with someone new for both the white & black swan roles.
THEME STATED: Pgs 16-18, NINA's a nutter. How to deal with an either/or personality? Mins 15 - 16 NINA's a nutter. How to deal with an either/or personality?
ACT TWO: Pg 26, NINA, the protagonist, got the role! Can she maintain it? Mins 22 - 24, NINA, the protagonist, got the role! Can she maintain it?
FISH OUTTA WATER: Pg 27, Intro to the principal's dressing room, demonstrate she can perform Black Swan, confront BETH, role pressure. Min 27 Intro to the principal's dressing room, demonstrate she can perform Black Swan, role pressure.
TICKING CLOCK Pgs 50 - 53, Intro to sponsors Mins 45 - 49 THOMAS's concern evolves into routine beration.
BAD GUYS CLOSE IN Pg 54 LILY teases what YEVNA wants from NINA then betrays her. Mins 49 - 52 LILY infers NINA's pressure is cause for her to goto THOMAS with concerns.
FALSE DEFEAT/GAIN Pg 65, BETH is gone. YEVNA is pissed. LILY has betrayed her. Min 55, BETH is gone. YEVNA is pissed. LILY has betrayed her
Pgs 69 - 71, LILY finally gains NINA's trust, largely due to NINA. Min 57, LILY finally gains NINA's trust, largely due to ERICA.
THE DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL: Pgs 71 - 80, The ingenue and the vamp bond over burgers, culminating in a vicious RASH! Mins 58 - 1:09, The ingenue and the vamp bond over burgers, culminating in a lezzy wet dream with RASH!
ACT 3: Pgs 84 - 129, Despite fouling the White Swan, NINA pulls off the BlackSwan, after killing her DOUBLE, which was really herself. Mins 1:10 - 1:40, NINA aces both the White and Black Swan, after killing LILY/DOUBLE, which was really herself.
ACT ONE OPENING IMAGE: SCREENPLAY - Pg 1, We know we're dealing with a ballerina in crisis FILM - Min 1, We know we're dealing with a ballerina in crisis
CATALYST: Pg 8, Swan Lake will be cast with someone new for both the white & black swan roles. Mins 8 - 10, Swan Lake will be cast with someone new for both the white & black swan roles.
THEME STATED: Pgs 16-18, NINA's a nutter. How to deal with an either/or personality? Mins 15 - 16 NINA's a nutter. How to deal with an either/or personality?
ACT TWO: Pg 26, NINA, the protagonist, got the role! Can she maintain it? Mins 22 - 24, NINA, the protagonist, got the role! Can she maintain it?
FISH OUTTA WATER: Pg 27, Intro to the principal's dressing room, demonstrate she can perform Black Swan, confront BETH, role pressure. Min 27 Intro to the principal's dressing room, demonstrate she can perform Black Swan, role pressure.
TICKING CLOCK Pgs 50 - 53, Intro to sponsors Mins 45 - 49 THOMAS's concern evolves into routine beration.
BAD GUYS CLOSE IN Pg 54 LILY teases what YEVNA wants from NINA then betrays her. Mins 49 - 52 LILY infers NINA's pressure is cause for her to goto THOMAS with concerns.
FALSE DEFEAT/GAIN Pg 65, BETH is gone. YEVNA is pissed. LILY has betrayed her. Min 55, BETH is gone. YEVNA is pissed. LILY has betrayed her
Pgs 69 - 71, LILY finally gains NINA's trust, largely due to NINA. Min 57, LILY finally gains NINA's trust, largely due to ERICA.
THE DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL: Pgs 71 - 80, The ingenue and the vamp bond over burgers, culminating in a vicious RASH! Mins 58 - 1:09, The ingenue and the vamp bond over burgers, culminating in a lezzy wet dream with RASH!
ACT 3: Pgs 84 - 129, Despite fouling the White Swan, NINA pulls off the BlackSwan, after killing her DOUBLE, which was really herself. Mins 1:10 - 1:40, NINA aces both the White and Black Swan, after killing LILY/DOUBLE, which was really herself.
That was so smack on, Ray. I think we can all end this Script club now and leap down onto a big stack of virtual pads and shout:
IT WAS PERFECT!!!
But no, we won't do that just yet, will we. No. Why not? Because we're Simplyscripters and we're insane, that's why!!!
Now someone tell me:
Do you think the movie would have been better carried out if they could have found twins for the role and played more on the doppleganger aspect? It was very strong in the script-- the double idea. In my mind, (in the script) they were the same person, and the dark Nina (Lilly) was a complete paranormal type of manifestation-- a phenomenon kind of like a ghost. And, it was part of a cycle that happened the same way time and time again in that theatre, always ending in tragedy for the girl (congratulations and condolences) lucky enough to acquire the lead.
Like James, I'm having difficulty because I had seen the movie first, awhile back, (seems like aeons ago) before reading the script and then watching the movie again. When I read the script, I already had predetermined ideas in my head, so there was some clarity with the movie's slant.
The script seemed to me more mysterious with the double aspect. What's your take on that?
I thought that they were going to have Portman play the part of the double. I saw it as a figment of her imagination for a long time until Lily came to the casting.. But I was STILL waiting for them to write it so that Nina had made her up somehow. And she kind of did because she who did she think she stabbed in the movie when she had actually stabbed herself. It was a figment that she pulled into the bathroom to hide.
I thought that they were going to have Portman play the part of the double. I saw it as a figment of her imagination for a long time until Lily came to the casting.. But I was STILL waiting for them to write it so that Nina had made her up somehow. And she kind of did because she who did she think she stabbed in the movie when she had actually stabbed herself. It was a figment that she pulled into the bathroom to hide.
A little confusing!
Thank you! At least I'm not alone in thinking that they tread a very fine line in the movie. I think they wanted the audience to come to their own conclusions, that yes, indeed, Lilly was all the while, just made up and everything thing we were seeing, was only from the POV of Nina.
Re: Lily, the script shows (page 126, well after the stabbing scene) "Lily turns and walks away. We can see the dark wing tattoos on her back, just to confirm it's actually her."
I took this to mean that the audience is meant to see from Nina's POV, since it seems unlikely that Lily would be allowed to dance in this ballet without the tattoos covered with make-up. As I recall in the film, it shows the black wings on Lily's back, too.
Also, in the film, there's a point toward the end where Nina is "in the wings" going to make an entrance onstage and the stage manager tells her she's in the wrong place and quickly moves her to the other side -- I thought that would have been a good moment to do some tricky camera work (mirror in a mirror or something) but the film didn't seem to take advantage of it.
Yes, I saw that part. She was at the back of the stage. I thought it was because she had never had a lead before and just went to the back of the stage out of habit.
They had to remind her... Kid, you are in the front now! Her self esteem was really poor (understatement)!
Clearly I read the wrong version. Who the hell is Thomas?
I'm going to try to watch the film today. I wonder how long it is since the script I read was a later version and much shorter they must have cut a lot out.
Very good Ray, but STC beats are fifteen so there are a couple of them missing, but very good of you to make them out both for the script and film. Thank you.
So what did you guys think of the characters? Were they well thought out and what did you think about their interactions? Even though this film has some big things happening in it. I still say that it is all the smaller things that make this one great. The details.
Pia, what is STC beats? I know what a beat sheet is, but what / who is STC?
I did think that Nina's character was well thought out... I didn't so much think that Beths character got a lot of "facetime"
Even though I loved the beginning of the film/script with the ballet feet dancing, etc, I do think it would have gone a long way to have us see Beth at the height of her dance, see how good she was, her love of the dance in order for us to get more emotional about her loss. I didn't care that she was a washed up dancer, too old for the part or that Nina got it out from under her. Who cared about Beth? Not me, sorry. They missed the characterization and emotional committment on her part IMHO.
Other than Nina, I don't think there's much character development, but I don't think it was intended -- all of the supporting characters are seen in a slightly different light as the film goes on (as Nina's POV changes) --
I'll try out some thoughts about Erica... Erica starts out (in the film) as a barely visible reflection in a mirror. In the script she remains a mysterious personality but in the film, I think, she simply becomes more plainly visible; she's a sad, nervous woman who worries too much about her sad, nervous daughter.
When Erica forcibly cuts Nina's nails (in the film), it looks like sadism, except that she makes the case that Nina has a history of scratching her skin raw (the socks to cover the hands during Nina's troubled sleep are evidently a tried and true remedy) and Erica is frightened, she's a single mother who has tried to protect her daughter from the terrible things in life, even her daughter's own fingernails.
When Erica shows anger at Nina's late night partying, Erica looks deranged, but I submit that she had reason to worry, it's her (Erica's) house that Nina stumbles back into, and how does a mother not worry under the circumstances (Nina onstage next day). To Erica it had to feel like torture, waiting.
Next morning Nina oversleeps and that's supposed to be Erica's fault, Nina declares she going to move out (finally!) and Erica looks like an only slightly more ruined version of her ruined self. At the end of the film, when Nina is onstage, Erica stares in wonder but also, it looked to me, as if she were willing every last iota of her own life force into her daughter's dance.
I think Barbara Hershey got everything possible from the role, she was at times stoic, hysterical, noble, petty, frightened, fierce.