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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Screenwriting Discussion    Screenwriting Class  ›  Ackerman on Theme Moderators: George Willson
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leitskev
Posted: April 26th, 2012, 3:40pm Report to Moderator
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Agreed on all points...except my lackluster enthusiasm for Casino. While I don't think it's as good as Good Fellas, and Sharon Stone is annoying in it, I love the film, especially the first half. It's worth watching just to see how perfect the dialogue is formulated.

The second half of the film, perhaps because it's more Sharon Stone drama, does wear on me. I tend to switch channels at that point.

I don't find Good Fellas to be thematic in the sense that there is one unifying theme, whether that them be an argument or a debate. Several themes are powerfully explored, so in that sense it's thematic.

The ultimate anti-thematic statement for me is at the end, when Henry is in the witness protection program. If he had to do it all over, it's clear he would live the same life, except hopefully make it last longer.

Thanks James.
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James McClung
Posted: April 26th, 2012, 4:12pm Report to Moderator
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I gotcha, man. I guess the "not a great film" threw me off.

I don't know about Goodfellas not having a theme nor the ending being anti-thematic. I thought it was a decent exploration of the American Dream and why people want it. I don't think the film really boiled it down to anything specific but you do get a lot out of it.

I think this goes back to what I was saying about a theme being a statement. I see them more as topics, honestly, and tend to get a lot more out of films that do the same.


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leitskev
Posted: April 26th, 2012, 5:11pm Report to Moderator
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I think the script people that teach theme as being critical to film are saying that a theme should be used to unify a script. There were people that said last summer that film IS theme. I definitely prefer the notion that is emerging in this conversation, where story is an exploration of many things, among them characters, and ideally themes. I always preferred thematic films, or thought I did, but I am really kind of just learning about film, and appreciating various parts of the experience.
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Baltis.
Posted: April 26th, 2012, 5:32pm Report to Moderator
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I don't think any of these screenwriting books teach you anything about writting a script you can actually sell... They teach you snippets of information that "they" have used to sell "their" scripts to "hollywood".   Only catch, most of the authors have never sold a script and if they did they were born into the industry already... Blake Snyder comes to mind here.

A good screenplay can't possibly sell to hollywood cos'  they dictate what's good enough.  Adam Levenberg said it best:  

"the worst produced hollywood movie still had a better script than an unsigned writer could ever produce."

Says it all...  He's telling you, in a rather blunt way, you have little chance at selling to Hollywood.   So, my advice, after countless sessions with consultants "levenberg was one of them" write modest, write clear, write what you beleive in and target independent filmmakers.  

At the end of the day, another term hollywood uses to tell you no way, your work in motion is better than the payout.
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: April 26th, 2012, 6:10pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from leitskev
I think the script people that teach theme as being critical to film are saying that a theme should be used to unify a script. There were people that said last summer that film IS theme. I definitely prefer the notion that is emerging in this conversation, where story is an exploration of many things, among them characters, and ideally themes. I always preferred thematic films, or thought I did, but I am really kind of just learning about film, and appreciating various parts of the experience.


I don't want to retread old ground, but theme is not (just?) something that unifies the script. Theme is the unifying idea that is presented by the whole script/movie/art form entire...which includes all the minor themes dealt with within.

It's a subtle difference.

It's also confusing because a piece can deal with many themes, but there's only one unifying theme...which is THE theme.

When you take all the individual pieces...the viewpoints of all the characters as a whole, how the story turns out, look at all the Directorial evidence...what's he trying to say about life, society or human nature?

What's the overall unifying lesson that Goodfellas teaches us about life, society or human nature?

Something like "Crime is bad, and you'll always get caught in the end, but FUCK ME it's fun and there'll always be criminals/mobsters as long as there is society".

You say it yourself, but call it an "anti-theme". A theme doesn't have to be a positive moral that you teach to children.

Sometimes you think I'm being argumentative, but I'm not, I'm just discussing...so don't take this the wrong way...but I feel compelled to point out that there's no such thing as an anti-theme:

https://www.google.co.uk/searc.....ll0&aqi=g-v2g-b3

The way you use it, seems to me at least, to fit perfectly under the umbrella of theme.

With lover, Rick.
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leitskev
Posted: April 26th, 2012, 6:10pm Report to Moderator
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I don't think anyone should read a book or any number of books and think that is going to enable them to sell a screenplay. I only checked this book out because it was a nice day for a walk downtown and I found it in the library. Normally that kind of title is a turn off to me, but the selection was limited.

But when I opened the book, I found it intriguing and useful. If one can't write a good story, no book in the world will help. But if one has some talent for it, it makes perfect sense to sharpen your skills by sampling the wisdom of others.

You didn't refer to theme in your post, so I suppose you only saw the title of the book and that was enough.

I have not been doing this long, so I can't speak authoritatively on what the odds are of breaking in in this industry. But I've read numerous interviews with writers who've made it in recent years with little of no connections. One thing I have taken from these interviews is that if you can produce high quality scripts, there is work for you.

The problem is producing really good scripts. If I've learned anything in this past year it's how hard that is. I have yet to read a feature on this website that I thought had what it takes. That's not a knock on people, either. That just shows how really hard it is. And it has nothing to do with writing styles either. I am simply talking the ability to produce a feature length story that someone is going to pour a lot of time and money into.

From the interviews, it is consistently said that you need to write about 15 or 16 features before you really start writing what is needed. And it takes years. For anyone interested, every Thursday Scriptshadow does an interview. Obviously there are others available online. They also say it takes years of writing 4 or 5 scripts a year.

So I think the key is to keep writing, and keep learning. Learn from a variety of sources. You are using consultants, fine. Books on screenwriting, books on story, books on film; watching film; opinion of other writers, reviews. It all helps. None of it should be discounted.

A consultant is no more reliable than a book. If the consultant knows the keys to writing a successful story, why is he consulting instead of writing? I'm not knocking you. I used a high priced consultant this past fall. I did not come away feeling the advice was any better than what I get from people here for free. Your experience could be different. I can respect any effort to improve one's work.

I agree writing just with big studios in mind is not the best strategy. If one writes 4 or 5 scripts a year, best to target a variety of type projects, big and small. Show your diversity.

The topic here was theme, and I think Ackerman's thoughts on theme in the writing process are worth considering. For more, people will have to check out the book.
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