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I can hit the right page numbers, but I am an OVER WRITER too. I've even been told that about my emails!
I'm doing better...but I think I will always be called an over writer. I can live with that, but I'll continue to get out the Lizzie hatchet to trim trim trim
Thanks PY, even if you did make me / us feel like addicts that will always be fighting this (then again, I did title the thread that way).
You’re giving me hope ‘wings. I just hope it clicks for me as fast as it did for you (and thanks for the examples…especially of a beach scene for those of us in the wintery North American Midwest).
I’m all for not writing as much Kip. It’s a broadcasting rule too…we get into trouble (verbally and otherwise) when we start talking too much. It's easy to ramble or start talking in circles. It sounds like the same thing applies I just have to figure it out on paper.
Coop, I think you hit on something. I want to have the reader picture what I’m seeing. I need to have the reader engaged, however.
Is there a degree to which I shouldn’t even worry about the finer details of what a scene looks like other than to set tone / emotion? Do I just tell the reader where we are if the thing ever gets produced then the technical people / director fill in the blanks?
I’ve never heard of the “Dreamie” product before. You show me this AFTER Christmas?!
Michael and some other added that there are different styles of writing and perhaps mine may lend itself to being a little wordier than others.
I get that. However almost all of the feedback I've received has pointed out that my verbage has been excessive. Both 10-pagers I wrote had feedback that said the piece could have / should have been 5-6 pages pieces. And most of these people liked the core of what was there. I can see where the feedback is accurate and I'm inclined to side with those who have more experience and are more informed than I on this art.
Again, it's an odd feeling when I read it and think "I should know better." For me, this is like knowing how to drive a car but now attempting to fly a plane.
Taking a scene from a movie, writing it as you think it should be done and then comparing it to how it's actually written in the script, gives you the opportunity to analyse where you're going wrong.
I've done this for several scenes from one of my favourites, Get Carter, and it's amazing how much writing you don't need to actually do.
Kip.
I took this philosophy to the feature length level. The first script I ever wrote was based on a produced screenplay. But I reworked the narrative to improve some shortcomings. That helped me learn how to rewrite something that needs work.
The very first draft was 146 pages. The last one was 101. Still telling the very same story, but weaning off that overwriting.
Without those lessons, my voice on the page wouldn't have developed well.
Regards, E.D.
LATEST NEWS CineVita Films is producing a short based on my new feature!
Luckily, unlike alchoholism, there is successful recovery from overwriting.
Hi. My name's Mark, and I'm a RECOVERED overwriter.
I don't know where to start. I guess it was when I was a kid, and me and Stephen would get together after school. I'd read his stories. Some were 500 pages long. Some were over 1,000. Stephen was deep into the life. I tried to be like him, but I just didn't have the gift of bullshit, nor the patience for it.
And even though I'm on a different route than Stephen King, he was still a huge influence for me, and that's why my early scripts were about 120-130 pages long when there was only about 80 pages of story.
Yes, Stephen King is arguably a little more popular than I am, :-), but I'm still very early in my career and eager to tell some great stories.
I still try to write some prose every now and then, but screenwriting is a lot more suitable medium for me because I hate bullshitting in stories. I like to get in and out, tell the great story, leave a great impression, and get started on the next one because it's been crawling around inside my head.
Early on, I was very influenced to write my screenplays much like novels, because that's all that I had read at the time. (And when I did come across scripts, they were always SHOOTING scripts, so when I tried to use them for a resource or guide, I was still doing it wrong anyway.)
When I finally came across here and read some of the better scripts on SimplyScripts, it helped me realize what I was doing wrong. And, although I haven't really done this much because I hate being influenced by what I read or see, (like Stephen did to me when I was younger), but when I read some pro scripts, I'm learning a lot more on what to cut down on and what to focus on.
It's all patience and practice and learning how to streamline your descriptions.
I've told you, (I think on both your threads), I really don't mind overwriting, as long as it adds some delicious detail or a great atmosphere to the story, or puts a CLEAR picture in your head. But, from what I remember about 'The Reader' and 'Can't See a Thing', all's your descriptions needed was streamlined. You already had an atmosphere in 'Can't See a Thing', and you already had a delicious story in 'The Reader'. I'm a firm believer in the best way to teach editing is by examples:
Quoted from The Reader
ALEX, 25, leans over his printer that sits on a small desk. The printer hums as it spits out printed paper. He pulls a cell phone from his pocket as he picks up the paper and looking at the page dials.
ALEX, 25, leans over his printer as it spits out paper. He picks one of the sheets up and dials a number off it.
See how you described the action in 41 words and 4 lines, while I described it in 24 words and 2 lines, without losing any image or any of the story. It streamlines the information to the reader's head.
It may sound tedious, but when you apply this method to every single action, you will be surprised how fast your story will flow, especially on a feature. Not to mention it keeps in time with 1 page = 1 minute of screen time, which is VERY important when it comes to production and figuring out the budget.
Quoted from The Reader
Alex takes a pen from his desk and writes as he listens on the cell phone. EXT. DOUG’S HOUSE - DAY Alex walks up to the front door of a small house located on quiet street. He rings the doorbell and a second later Doug appears as he opens the door. Doug, 30, offers a warm smile behind a dark beard.
Alex writes the address down. EXT. DOUG'S HOUSE - DAY A quiet neighborhood. Alex walks up to the front door and rings the doorbell. DOUG, 30, with a three-day beard growth, smiles at him.
Yours: 56 words and 7 lines. (Excluding the slug) Mine: 29 words and 3 lines. (Excluding the slug)
I was able to cut those descriptions down by more than half without losing any of the story. (I liked having it a quiet neighborhood to contrast the horror inside the house, and Doug's smiling being a relief that someone else is finally there.)
Hopefully, you get my drift from just those few examples. Like I said, there's nothing wrong with detailed descriptions and visuals, just make sure you're focusing on the right details.
If 'machado read The Reader then I have to thank him for not calling me out directly for having a character collapse "face first on to the light brown carpeted floor"...from a (slinking under my desk now) "tan couch."
I will be sheepishly logging off now...will check back later.
I hadn't read it. I just pointed those things out because they are very common in overwritten scripts.
Mainly because people tend to think that screenwriting is similar to novel writing. It's very different. In fact, I would say it takes a completely different skill set to be a good novel writer than it does to be a good screenwriter.
I don't have the vocabulary to be a novel writer, so here I am. =D
'Artist' is not a term you should use to refer to yourself. Let others, and your work, do it for you.
Not much to add to a very useful SS thread and I totally agree on keeping things tight, but...
....one thing I am learning, slowly, is that one day you may to have to impress a reader, normally a consultant etc, and persuade them that your script is the dog's bollocks. They need to believe in your story, your structure and amongst other things, you as a writer.
Sometimes they hate over writing, sometimes they love embellishment. What enriches, what takes away - a fine balance.
So, choose your moment to "go over board"(wrong phrase but let's use it for now), as a quality, full description at the right place- there are aren't many of them - will help the read, make you look a stronger writer etc. Still work in progress for me, but as they say, there are many rules and no rules. Know when to break them...if only it was that easy.
The Elevator Most Belonging To Alice - Semi Final Bluecat, Runner Up Nashville Inner Journey - Page Awards Finalist - Bluecat semi final Grieving Spell - winner - London Film Awards. Third - Honolulu Ultimate Weapon - Fresh Voices - second place IMDb link... http://www.imdb.com/name/nm7062725/?ref_=tt_ov_wr
That's a very good point. You can't always be so short with your words.
For example, if you were writing a love story about a couple torn apart, and they finally meet again, you probably should do more than:
They run to each other and kiss.
Take these moments to describe their passion and things like that.
Think of it in terms of the movie again. Whenever you picture something as a big moment in your story. Make it a big moment in you writing... if you want.
'Artist' is not a term you should use to refer to yourself. Let others, and your work, do it for you.
Some scenes just deserve more detail than others IMO. Usually I think those scenes tend to be around the midpoint, the climax or the inciting incident. Those critical checkpoints in your script where each action or word feels significant is where I think it's fine to indulge in some detail.
Your writing should still flow forward at a brisk pace but sometimes I think it's okay to slow it down a bit at those kinds of scenes with some nice details. Cinemachado stated an example which I feel is spot on.
I think you've got more than your fair share of well rounded feedback here, Ed. I think all of it's worth considering. But in the interest of helping you improve, I'll say this...
Learning how not to overwrite takes time and practice. I still do it from time to time but I've grown much more wary of it and have gotten quite good at scaling back excess. That takes an eye for what excess is, first and foremost, which takes time to develop.
A good way to practice writing more economically is keeping track of how many lines you're using and how many words you're using in each line. The rule of thumb is 4-5 lines per paragraph but 2-3 is always preferable. You might have a paragraph with four lines that works fine as is but if you can find a way to cut it down to three, all the better. If the last line of your paragraph only has a handful of words in it, as opposed to half a sentence, that's usually a good opportunity to tighten up, even if you've already got 2-3 lines.
I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to cut down your writing if the writing already works. I have read scripts where the writing has been sparse to a fault. What I'm saying is you should always be looking out for this kind of stuff.
All that said, I think it's okay to overwrite first drafts. Not to say you should try to overwrite but it's always better to have to scale something back than to have to fill something in. Ultimately, it's more good practice for the long run.
I've been unaware of MoviePoet, Pia. Thanks! I'd even had MP referenced to me a couple of times but I didn't know what it was.
Mark- those examples did help and hopefully serve as help to others who happen to be reading this (if nothing else, hopefully I can be a shining example of how NOT to do something). Congrats on your recovery by the way...I hope I make it to the "other side" of this where are you.
James, my first drafts will all likely be over-written...I'm comfortable with that but not comfortable or skilled at knowing how to edit yet. Like 'wings post, it will likely take three or four attempts (at least) at chopping what I have down but I need to develop an instinct for where to apply the scissors.
When I saw what Reef posted (and the responses to that had some great examples), my first thought was actually: if there's a place for embellishment in a script, should (for this stage of my writing) that come through a character's dialog? Given, of course, that situation would need to fit the character and circumstances. Does thinking that way keep one from writing a paragraph of action lines?
Have to say this is something I have constantly battling with and have found there's a needs for a balance.
After much feedback from SS members I found myself cutting back my action lines sooooo much, that the overall feel of the scenes where a bit dull.
Sure cut it back and only show descriptions that are relevant to the story though not at the expense of the read.
Read as many scripts as you can and this will give a feel for the writing.
A prospective producer reading your screenplay will look at the tightness of the writing, as well as the choice or words and their relevance to the story being told, the critical part is the story though, you can write the best written screenplay if the story "Sucks" you're wasting your time.
I agree with Angry Bear - MP could be the magic pill. You get your story on 8 pages then you cut all the unnecessary until it's down to 5 - great discipline.
I'm an under-writer but not the clean, lean and mean type but the kind Bill and Felipe are talking about. I say things in the most boring way, omit all the descriptions (not because they are not needed but because I'm simply not good with them). So I'm the one fleshing out my story, characters, action, descriptions in the end. And I do that all the time, with every script. I think being an over-writer is lesser of a problem, under-writing is worse.
PY- you didn't make me feel like an idiot. That feeling comes natural to me.
Alex, it's good to know that the process doesn't have to come all together at once. In starting this process, "story" is all I have. Getting it on the page the right way is a problem.
khamamamama, the thought of writing shorts for MP or anywhere seemed like a stretch for me a few months ago. I'm not one of those people with 100 story ideas in my head nor one that can just conjure up something quick. But I went through subjects / topics for SS OWC and went through the MP site yesterday for the first time. Sometimes I had nothing, but sometimes I could see and hear some things that might have worked. I hope to take a swing at some of those over the next few months. Writing the two shorts I did turned into a valuable learning experience (this thread being one of those).