Quoted from DustinBowcot Shaving pages while still keeping the exact same substance of the story does nothing to shorten the actual story itself. Merely the page count changes. Why are people so hung up on page count?

Because in my opinion, the less pages you use in your story the better.  I've been able to get a lot of my stuff down to the mid 90s, 110 in my eyes, is pushing the limit, 105 is enough to tell a complex narrative while 95 - 100 pages is more than enough to convey a story, development and a message to a target audience.

Quoted from DustinBowcot Right... so you're actually suggesting here that you can save 30 pages by using this technique. I've read one or two of your scripts and don't remember you using parentheses equal to 30 pages worth of savings.

Not suggesting anything.  Merely stating that it saves lines.  Not 30 pages worth, not 10 pages worth, if we're lucky, maybe 2 or 3 pages worth.  

I believe you can fit roughly 30 lines on a standard Celtx page.  By using parenthicals to convey emotion and action, you can save roughly 2 lines each time you do it because you're not hitting "action" then "character" again.

As for my own stuff, I pretty much remove a helluva lot of content before I upload.  Sometimes these scripts go for 100+ pages, then I edit, use parentheses (not in the raw, finished pdf) to cut down a lot of stuff, then I end up with a 90 pager.

Not that it's all parenthicals/wrylies though.  I remove a lot of the fat too.  

30 lines per page - 2-3 parenthicals per page saving 2 lines (6 lines saved) meaning if you do this a few times over the course of your story, say, 15-30, you're cutting 2 meaningless pages away while delivering the exact same idea.

Not that it's what everyone does.  Like I said, I only really do it to help the readers understand the emotive state and/or what the character is doing while talking.

-Lee

Quoted from DustinBowcot Shaving pages while still keeping the exact same substance of the story does nothing to shorten the actual story itself. Merely the page count changes. Why are people so hung up on page count?

Because you have to have a standard. Page cost for a full feature at average cost runs into the region of $300,000 to $500,000 per page. They have to be properly budgetted, but people make rough estimates based on their budget -- $4m=$44,444 @ 90pp, but at the same cost per page amount = $1.3m extra at 120pp. Many, many people are paid per day - cameras are hired at a cost per day, as are location etc.

Also, stuff gets added - credits, extra action - any changes you (producer/director) want - so there's a need to see the story told in its basic form, and not with a whole bunch of unnecessary stuff thrown in for the fun of it.

I'll put my hand in here and hope I don't get bit. I have a relevant question since we're talking about Celtx, pages numbers and page lines now. When I type in Celtx my current screenplay is at 117 pages. But when I create a PDF for it the page count jumps to 120. I took out options like having CONT at the bottom of pages and such but I still cant get the two to match up I know the title page eats up one of these but its very frustrating to shave pages off only to have them bloat on back due to PDF conversion. How can I make this one to one?  

Not too sure you can actually - it refomats it when it converts it to pdf, which I've always taken to mean 'does it properly'. And I don't think anyone needs to get obsessive about cutting pages here and there - your story has to be lean too. BTW, have you got your settings down as US Letter (Script->Format Option->) and not A4?

Yeah, its US letter. Currently on my 4th or 5th rewrite, (they are starting to blur together) and focusing on tightening up the story, cutting unneeded scenes and dialogue. But for everything I cut I'll add something else so my pages are a yo-yo right now. I don't want to say how many pages I've cut since the first draft but its been substantial, lol.  Was just hoping to gain a page or two back through formatting if I could. Guess, I'll have to do it the old fashioned way.

Quoted from Demento Of course it was a joke.

Sorry. It was expertly deadpanned  

Quoted from DustinBowcot All you wrote was that he looks at his cards…

I guess it felt beside the point, is all. Without the context of the scene, no one can say with any authority what information is or isn’t necessary.

Quoted from DustinBowcot It's not about saving space, it's about telling a story well. If that means you use more words to help with flow then so be it.

I agree. Likewise, I would say it’s not about avoiding parentheticals.

Quoted from DustinBowcot That depends upon how you want it to flow. In your first example the sigh happens quickly. In the second, it happens much slower. That's flow. You may want the sigh to come in fast, use a parenthetical, if there's a longer beat between pause and dialogue then use an action line. It is all about flow.

Yes! It is all about flow. When writing a scene we should be considering all options equally, not thinking, “I will do everything in my power to avoid parentheticals.”

Quoted from Dustin It's not how the words are positioned that makes a story flow, it is the way the writer writes it.

Not sure its that simple. You could attack any standard of formatting with that sentence. But I suppose this means we agree that the parenthetical doesn’t necessarily inhibit the flow? (I know you weren’t the one who said that originally).

I agree whole-heartedly that the story and the scene comes first, but I still can’t tell whether we’re reaching a consensus or pulling away from it.

Quoted from Dustin It's not about saving space… It's not how the words are positioned that makes a story flow… It isn't about consistency either

All that just makes me think to myself… So why should I be avoiding parentheticals like they’re gonna give me the clap?


---To further elaborate on how or why I use action parenthesis. My first thought is, do I want this action to be occurring during or in close relation with the dialogue? If so, I question whether that action serves the dialogue.

A parenthetical's use is to modify dialogue. It can add tone (sullen), give direction (to Cathy), alter language (in French) and so on. An action parenthetical is no different. People communicate through body language. Body language modifies and supports verbal language, so any action I put into parenthesis needs to have a close relationship to the dialogue.

Code DEAN: (waves) Bye. --------------------- KEITH: (pounding) Open the door! ------------------------ JAYNE (winks) Wouldn’t you like to know?

As I said before, if there’s a previous action line that can contain Jayne’s wink, I may put it there instead. But if there isn’t, it doesn’t make sense, to me, to leave the wink suspended to the side in white space instead of nuzzled right up next to the communication it supports.

Lastly I think, “can I condense this into three words”? If the action serves the first two purposes well, the third one usually isn’t hard to figure out.

I agree that ‘space saving’ isn’t the point, and it’s my fault for over emphasizing that in my original post. I see parentheticals constantly referred to as space wasters and wonder how many people are aware of the numerous occasions when they could actually save a space instead.

Quoted from CameronD I'll put my hand in here and hope I don't get bit. I have a relevant question since we're talking about Celtx, pages numbers and page lines now. When I type in Celtx my current screenplay is at 117 pages. But when I create a PDF for it the page count jumps to 120. I took out options like having CONT at the bottom of pages and such but I still cant get the two to match up I know the title page eats up one of these but its very frustrating to shave pages off only to have them bloat on back due to PDF conversion. How can I make this one to one?

No hand biting here. I think I found this answer on a forum somewhere. Unfortunately, I think the answer was, your script is really 120 pages long. It may be worth it to find a second opinion, though. I leave off the function that yields the first number. No use getting my hopes up  

Quoted from Forgive have you got your settings down as US Letter (Script->Format Option->) and not A4?

what does this mean

If you use Celtx, then you can change your page setting, and the Letter setting (the size of the page) is different to A4 size paper.

Quoted from Forgive Because you have to have a standard. Page cost for a full feature at average cost runs into the region of $300,000 to $500,000 per page. They have to be properly budgetted, but people make rough estimates based on their budget -- $4m=$44,444 @ 90pp, but at the same cost per page amount = $1.3m extra at 120pp. Many, many people are paid per day - cameras are hired at a cost per day, as are location etc. Also, stuff gets added - credits, extra action - any changes you (producer/director) want - so there's a need to see the story told in its basic form, and not with a whole bunch of unnecessary stuff thrown in for the fun of it.

What does that have to do with what I said? Page count does not matter if the substance of the story is exactly the same. I wasn't even talking about adding extra stuff.

Quoted from Leegion Because in my opinion, the less pages you use in your story the better.  I've been able to get a lot of my stuff down to the mid 90s, 110 in my eyes, is pushing the limit, 105 is enough to tell a complex narrative while 95 - 100 pages is more than enough to convey a story, development and a message to a target audience.

You shouldn't define how long a story should be and constrain yourself to that. Saving lines but keeping the same substance is still the same script just in one or two less pages. Still the same amount of words, still the same length... it is only the pages that are shorter, the story is still the same length. Therefore still the same amount of film time. You do get that logic? I've repeated it several times now and it just goes over people's heads.

Your earlier statement was that you went from writing 120 pages down to 90... that's 30 pages. So, that comment wasn't relevant to this conversation... had no point. The way you said it suggested that it was down to using parentheses more. So let's take 2-3 pages... you honestly think that a 99 page script makes any difference to a 102 page script?

Don't listen to the idiots on here that tell you anything over 100 is bad. They're not professional readers, they are lazy readers that couldn't give a flying about your script. They want it easy, because it isn't their job and they have no vested interest in your interests.

Have a pro reader read your 120 page script and they will not mention page count as a factor unless you have used unnecessary scenes or lengthy descriptions... and even then they won't mention page count, just the lengthy descriptions and extra scenes. The actual page count is fine so long as it tells an entertaining story.

Ewall... I'll condense my point for you... it doesn't take any longer to read an action within action than it does to read it within parenthesis.

The use of parenthesis should be used sparingly. I hate seeing huge blocks of dialogue on the page and will seek to break it up with action. Not just because this is a visual medium but also due to aesthetics. I doubt that in a single one of my scripts you will find a single page containing just dialogue. I find the use of parenthesis to describe action extremely unappealing to my tastes. Maybe it works for you. I doubt it would for me.

Oh man, you guys are killing me...absolutely kiling me!

First of all, I don't know what this 30 lines per page crap is because that's horseshit.  Depending on your software, your settings, and whether or not you're double spacing before Slugs, you'll find that 99% of professional scripts, including professionaly formatted non professional scripts, will have 52-56 lines per page.

I have 54 lines per page.

Does page length matter?  Of course it does.  Are you frickin' kidding me?  How anyone can say it doesn't matter, is beyond clueless.

So, what about this talk of "cutting pages" and savings lines by using wrylies?  Really?

Well, using 54 lines per page as a good average, how many action wrylies will you have to include in your 100 page script to save 3 pages?

Calculaters are allowed...

Let's see what kind of answers we get...

Quoted from Dreamscale Does page length matter?  Of course it does.  Are you frickin' kidding me?  How anyone can say it doesn't matter, is beyond clueless.

Agreed, Jeff - if you can get the same story across in 99 pages or less as opposed to 120+ - then do it.

Yeah, everybody wants to read a good story that's told well, but nobody wants to read a script that's long as fuck.

Quoted from DustinBowcot The use of parenthesis should be used sparingly. I hate seeing huge blocks of dialogue on the page and will seek to break it up with action. Not just because this is a visual medium but also due to aesthetics.

That's fair, of course. It's worth it to note that no one's use of parentheticals exists in a vacuum. There are other elements of style that writers use uniquely. Writers don't just balance one element, they balance all elements in combination. That's why what works for one won't work for another. But it's also fair to note...

Quoted from DustinBowcot I doubt that in a single one of my scripts you will find a single page containing just dialogue.

...you wouldn't find it in mine either.

Quoted from Dreamscale Well, using 54 lines per page as a good average, how many action wrylies will you have to include in your 100 page script to save 3 pages?

Between 54 and 80. I believe I indicated a "10% of dialogue worry-limit" above. Depending on how many lines of dialogue there are, this straddles that limit.

EDIT: Scratch that. Between 54 and 162. The low end is still achievable, and even 1 page is nothing to frown at.

Quoted from EWall433 Between 54 and 80. I believe I indicated a "10% of dialogue worry-limit" above. Depending on how many lines of dialogue there are, this straddles that limit.

About 81, give or take, depending on where the pages break.

And, yeah, IMO, it more than straddles the limit...it breaks it badly, as I can't imagine someone using anywhere near that many action wrylies in a Spec script, and then saying, "Well, I saved 3 pages".

There were a few good examples of how one can successfully use them, but they are few and far between.