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I'll try and hit these responses 1 at a time, as I think it will be clearer.
Dave, I apologize, as I tend to sometimes say things that i assume will be understood a certain way, while writing something that may seem like I'm saying something else.
My intent was not to tell that you should delete "all" these various actions taking place on the street. My point was that showing all these actions was overkill, IMO, as well as cliche and heavy handed.
I also didn't mean to veer off the core discussion.
My point was merely that the way you "want" this to play out, adds to the confusion and grey matter, in formatting.
I will look at exactly what you want to write and I will offer my recommendation...after I address the other posts first.
"The car speeds away.", the obvious assumption is that we're watching the car speed away, which is an EXT shot...correct?
Not if I’ve framed it as an INT shot. Then you’d imagine the sound of the engine and the images accelerating past the window, which I believe would be obvious visual cues as to what the car was doing, whether you see its EXT or not. I mean technically, you still see the car (from inside) and you see enough to know what it's doing.
Quoted from Dreamscale
If you read a line like, "John hits the brakes.", you're not visualizing an EXT shot of the car coming to a stop - you're picturing an INT shot of John hitting the brake(s), whether or not you literally see a CU of his foot on the actual brake pedal. You may visualize his upper half and how it reacts as he applies the brakes...correct?
This part kind of seems like a double standard. So when I write, “The car speeds away.” that has to be a literal shot of a car speeding away and we aren’t allowed to infer it from visual cues. But when you write, “John hits the brakes.” that doesn't have to be a literal shot of John’s foot hitting the brakes and we are allowed to infer it from visual cues? They seem too similar to me.
Also, imagine a scene where a character is tied up in the backseat of a car. They are alone and can only see tree tops through the window. All of a sudden, the car starts moving. Is it rolling down hill? Is being pushed? Pulled? They don’t know and, for dramatic purposes, the audience isn’t allowed to look outside either. How would we describe the mysterious motion of the car without eventually saying plainly, so there could be no mistake about it, “The car is moving.”
I do understand a lot of what you’re saying, I just think it’s fair to speak of what a car is doing from within the vehicle. If you say, “EXT. The car drives along the road”, I’ll picture an EXT shot of a car moving down the road. If you say, “INT. The car drives along the road”, I’ll simply picture an INT shot of that exact same event.
In your example(s), you are correct, as well as technically correct. But, I still think you're missing my point and I'm not sure if I'm just not being clear or you are trying to find ways around what I'm trying to get across.
Let's forget screenwriting for a second and concentrate on writing...or even communicating. Let's focus on the visual representation you get in your head when you read or hear the following...
"The car speeds ahead."
Commmon sense would say that the vast majority of peeps would envision some sort of EXT view of a car driving forward. This is simply due to the subject of the sentence being car and the verb being speeds. One would normally "see" the subject doing the action.
Can we agree on this?
Now, in screenwriting, Slugs help us visualize the shots, because they tell us where we are in terms of a setting and whether or not we're inside or outside. And again, your examples are correct and there are also many, many other examples of how one can manipulate a shot or scene, using POV from a certain thing or perspective, or simply where one decides to set the camera for a desired effect.
We still cool?
2 points I want to make about this...
1) Every time a writer decides to change/manipulate a shot from what would be considered "standard" or "normal", they are going above and beyond what a standard spec script is.
This is not to say there aren't times and examples of when this is acceptable, a smart move, or important to the script. The problem is, that very often, writers mess this up, or don't realize exactly what they're doing or showing...or why, which is my 2nd point.
And Eric, 1 final thing. You said it wasn't fair of me to use the examples I did, as the line, "John hits the brakes." infers that we actually see him stepping on the brake pedal. I disagree with this, as the intent is that yes, John is actually stepping on the brake pedal, but is that the shot that would be important to see? Or would it be better to show his facial reaction as he's doing this? Check this out...
Ever seen a horror movie where someone or something steps on someone's head and crushes it? How often do we actually see the end result or the actual crushing of the head? Sometimes, sure, but more often we won't actually see this take place, as the shot will be above the actual violence, but we'll get a sound that makes us completely aware of what just happened. Sure, you could take 4, 5 lines to describe exactly what "we see", or you could write exactly what happens and let the Director make the decision. Now, if you go into any detail of what the crushing looks like, etc, you're then definitely inferring that you intend us to see this take place, but without the detail, it doesn't really matter whether or not we actually see the deed take place.
In closing, I want to say that I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm not trying to be a total stickler. I' m just trying to help peeps understand various aspects of writing, which will actually help in getting their visions across to the masses.
We all "see" things in our heads and want others to share those visions. We're all coming from different levels of expertise and knowledge, and IMO, hearing different ideas and beliefs helps.
Yeah, it's Eric. I’ll try to keep this short, because it does seem silly to spend so much time on something so small
First off, I'm not just trying to find a way around. Actually when I'm in a debate, I spend most of my time trying to figure out where I'm wrong. There's no point in wasting everyone's time just so I can look stupid. I just genuinely don't see the need to be so particular in this case.
I agree that my first instinct in a INT. CAR shot is to describe what the driver is doing to make the car move. ‘Emily hits the gas’ isn’t necessarily a shot of her foot. But I also think there are many ways that a car can move that aren’t attributable to the driver. A lot of times simply taking one’s foot off the brake will allow the car to creep forward. So there are times where it’s going to be impossible or convoluted to describe what a car is doing solely through the driver’s interaction with it.
“The car speeds away.”
I agree that, taken in a vacuum, the first image I think of is an exterior shot. But that would be the same for many sentences taken out of context. For me it comes down to two questions. Is the subject (the car) in the frame? And can we tell what it’s doing? The answer is yes to both.
Actually, looking back at the conversation, I realize the line you originally took issue with was, “Emily drives forward.” If Emily can act on the brakes without us seeing the brakes, I certainly think she can act on the car in general without us needing a specific shot of the car.
Anyway, this is just my view. I realize it's not the only one.
I'd like opinions on this question about a specific slug.
A car is the setting for a few early scenes. Let's say a 1946 Ford station wagon. The make and model year are important because of how the car looks and the part it plays.
I don't want to tell the make and year by having a character say it. So I want to put it in the slug:
Yes that's fine. I do that even when it isn't important sometimes as it helps distinguish different cars rather than writing EMILY'S CAR for example. So long as it is clear, it doesn't matter.
I'd like opinions on this question about a specific slug.
A car is the setting for a few early scenes. Let's say a 1946 Ford station wagon. The make and model year are important because of how the car looks and the part it plays.
I don't want to tell the make and year by having a character say it. So I want to put it in the slug:
INT. 1946 FORD STATION WAGON -- DAYSound OK?
I'm going to say no, simply because of how yuo rbought this up - this will be the setting for "a few" early scenes, meaning, you'll have this Slug several times.
Is this the kind of Slug you want your readers to read over and over? I don't think so. I'd give the year in an action/description line. As for "Ford Station Wagon", well, it's a mouthfull, but if it really is important, I guess you need to get that across somehow. I was going to suggest just using "STATIO WAGON", but there are manufacturers other than Ford who make Station Wagons...or did at least.
I'll tell ya...you guys bring up the hardest examples to work with!!!
Dave, I haven't forgotten about you. In fact, I've been looking over this entire thread, as well as reading the first 10 or so of your script, in which much of this thread revolves around.
Obviously, I don't have much going on today.
I wish there was a simple answer here, but IMO, there's not. You and others may disagree and some or all of you may think I'm nuts, but here are my thoughts...
Looks to me like you want your script to be set in L.A., or somewhere near L.A., right? That's what you should do - start off by setting this properly. You can use a SUPER, or you can just say so in your opening action/description lines. Start it with an/some EXt shots of downtown, since that's where Emily's office is. Starting off in her car isn't a strong way to intro her or this script.
Reading your opening 10, I gather that it's Friday morning and Emily is on her way to work. Why do I say it's Friday morning? Well, because after work, Lauren comes over and drops off little Madelyn to spend the night. Now, whether Lauren and Emily are actually sisters, doesn't matter right now, but I'll assume they are. I'll also assume that Lauren is single and has plans for the night. Most professional peeps wouldn't be leaving for the night unless it's a weekend, cuz most professional peeps have reponsibilities during the business week.
So, why does any of this matter, or why in the world would I be saying this shit?
Well, because if what I'm assuming is correct, it doesn't make any sense to me why some dude would be giving his girl flowers on a street corner on a Friday morning in public after cheating on her, and this is the first time they've spoken since this happened, and opening on this scene just doesn't fly.
So check this out and see what you think...
After you intro the area, go right to Emily's office, and establish who she is - a Marriage Counselor. From there, go into your next scene with Sam and Nancy, but cut it back a bit. Overall, this is a nice scene, but it just runs too long, with too much dialogue and too much unecessary detail.
By doing this, you've set the stage, so to speak. Have Emily say out loud to herself or her secretary, maybe that she's had enough and is leaving early for the day/weekend.
Then, you can go back to your actual opening on the street, as Emily is driving home, and it will all make alot more sense now that we've seen what Emily has gone through today, or maybe goes through all the time.
This way, writing out the scene on the street will be alot easier, because Emily is already intro'd, and the location is already established. It will also make more sense now for your man and woman flower scene to take place - maybe they're supposed to meet for lunch and the woman just found out that the guy had cheated on her - the point being having the flower scene take place first thing in the morning is hard to beleive...for me, at least.
From there, go as you have in your script.
Now, how would I write it? After thinking long and hard, I realized I have a somewhat similar scene in 1 of my scripts, so I checked it out. I used individual Slugs for inside the car and outside on the street...and...it doesn't look bad at all, nor does it take upt a bunch of extra space. But, in my scene, it's not a convertible, and it's night, and it's dumping snow, so I really had no choice. With yours, you still do have a choice, as you can write it all as EXT. VINE STREET - DAY (or whatever street they're on).
I'd recommend having a brief scene of Emily in her parking garage, getting into her Convertible, so we will know that's her car, and again, once these facts are established, writing the next scene gets alot easier.
EXT. VINE STREET - DAY
Emily pulls out of the garage, into traffic. She sings along to a love song, playing on the radio.
She looks to her right, where a YOUNG MAN hands a bouquet of flowers to a YOUNG WOMAN.
The woman angrily thows them back into his chest.
WOMAN You Bastard! You cheated with my sister?
Emily turns away, a look of sadness on her face. She continues singing, but much softer now.
The Convertible moves slowly forward in the traffic, stopping again a few yards ahead.
Emily looks to her left, where a MIDDLE AGED COUPLE sits on a bench, completely ignoring each other.
She stops singing and merely hums along with the song now.
In front of her, a FAMILY walks through the intersection. The HUSBAND walks several steps ahead of his WIFE and CHILDREN. He turns back, angrily waves at them to hurry up.
Emily shakes her head, stops humming, and turns off the radio.
Blah, Blah, Blah
That's my advice, take it, leave it, flush it down the toilet. If nothing else, hope it makes sense and helps you gong forward.
Looks to me like you want your script to be set in L.A., or somewhere near L.A., right? That's what you should do - start off by setting this properly. You can use a SUPER, or you can just say so in your opening action/description lines. Start it with an/some EXt shots of downtown, since that's where Emily's office is. Starting off in her car isn't a strong way to intro her or this scrip
t.
Yes, the main setting is L.A. I have to mull over (digest) your suggestion here. Originally I had something like:
EXT. GRAND AVE, DOWNTOWN LOS ANGELES - DAY
Tall buildings abound. The street is congested with morning traffic. Pedestrians fill the blah, blah.
And then I thought - be brief - no need to describe because Downtown LA is iconic enough for the reader to already get the setting? (e.g., like NEW YORK TIME SQUARE, NEW ORLEANS - FRENCH QUARTER, LAS VEGAS - THE STRIP, etc.) that it was unnecessary to add the detail.
Quoted Text
Reading your opening 10, I gather that it's Friday morning and Emily is on her way to work. Why do I say it's Friday morning? Well, because after work, Lauren comes over and drops off little Madelyn to spend the night. Now, whether Lauren and Emily are actually sisters, doesn't matter right now, but I'll assume they are. I'll also assume that Lauren is single and has plans for the night. Most professional peeps wouldn't be leaving for the night unless it's a weekend, cuz most professional peeps have reponsibilities during the business week.
So, why does any of this matter, or why in the world would I be saying this s***?
Well, because if what I'm assuming is correct, it doesn't make any sense to me why some dude would be giving his girl flowers on a street corner on a Friday morning in public after cheating on her, and this is the first time they've spoken since this happened, and opening on this scene just doesn't fly.
Lauren is not single. She's married. She dropped off the kid with Emily because she is going to a business dinner with her husband, Tom. Lauren is not a professional. She's a stay at home Mom.
In terms of it being Friday - is the required assumption that the next scene is that night? i.e., if I have SCENE ONE - DAY and the next scene is SCENE TWO - NIGHT is it assumed that is has to be that night? I had never really though of it that way. I thought that it just had to be a night that followed that day whether it was one, two or three nights later.
Quoted Text
Well, because if what I'm assuming is correct, it doesn't make any sense to me why some dude would be giving his girl flowers on a street corner on a Friday morning in public after cheating on her, and this is the first time they've spoken since this happened, and opening on this scene just doesn't fly.
Well, first - he would be giving her flowers on a Friday morning if he cheated on her on a Thursday night. And, I'm still lost as to why this has to be Friday morning. Again, I wasn't aware of the specific implied sequencing in the slugs. For example - the next time Emily is in her office - does that have to be specifically a Monday? Is the next night scene Monday night and the next day scene Tuesday? I'm a little lost.
Quoted Text
So check this out and see what you think...
After you intro the area, go right to Emily's office, and establish who she is - a Marriage Counselor. From there, go into your next scene with Sam and Nancy, but cut it back a bit. Overall, this is a nice scene, but it just runs too long, with too much dialogue and too much unecessary detail.
By doing this, you've set the stage, so to speak. Have Emily say out loud to herself or her secretary, maybe that she's had enough and is leaving early for the day/weekend.
Then, you can go back to your actual opening on the street, as Emily is driving home, and it will all make alot more sense now that we've seen what Emily has gone through today, or maybe goes through all the time.
This way, writing out the scene on the street will be alot easier, because Emily is already intro'd, and the location is already established. It will also make more sense now for your man and woman flower scene to take place - maybe they're supposed to meet for lunch and the woman just found out that the guy had cheated on her - the point being having the flower scene take place first thing in the morning is hard to beleive...for me, at least.
A very interesting approach - I'll think about it. I'm happy with the dialogue in the scene. I'm going to keep that as is.
Quoted Text
EXT. VINE STREET - DAY
Emily pulls out of the garage, into traffic. She sings along to a love song, playing on the radio.
She looks to her right, where a YOUNG MAN hands a bouquet of flowers to a YOUNG WOMAN.
The woman angrily thows them back into his chest.
WOMAN You Bastard! You cheated with my sister?
Emily turns away, a look of sadness on her face. She continues singing, but much softer now.
The Convertible moves slowly forward in the traffic, stopping again a few yards ahead.
Emily looks to her left, where a MIDDLE AGED COUPLE sits on a bench, completely ignoring each other.
She stops singing and merely hums along with the song now.
In front of her, a FAMILY walks through the intersection. The HUSBAND walks several steps ahead of his WIFE and CHILDREN. He turns back, angrily waves at them to hurry up.
Emily shakes her head, stops humming, and turns off the radio.
Blah, Blah, Blah
That's my advice, take it, leave it, flush it down the toilet. If nothing else, hope it makes sense and helps you gong forward.
Take care.
Very helpful dude. I can use this approach either way (e.g., whether I keep the script in the current sequence or change as you suggested.
Really appreciate the time you took on this - you're a champ. Thanks
Well Dave, you know what hapens when one "assumes"!
But, when reading a script or watching a movie, one has to make assumptions because there's limited time to tell the story.
My asumption(s) were based on the fact that you spent your first 5 pages detailing Emily's day, and the next scene is at her house at night, so my assumption is that it's a continuation of that same day. Does it have to be? No...definitely not, but if it's not, you're basically saying nothing of interest happened since then...and since nothing of huge interest even happened in those first 5 pages, I just have to assume it's the same day, or I have to wonder why you chose to detail that period of time.
No big deal, either way.
As for the dude who cheated on his wife or girlfriend, again, maybe my bad, but I just can't picture a guy cheating with the sister of his significant other, and then meeting her on a busy street corner and giving her flowers for the Hell of it. Does it necessarily have to be morning? No. Does it have to be Friday? No. I guess Emily could work whenever she wants to...or maybe she was just getting back from lunch, but again, for me, assuming is something I think is key, but maybe I'm just a whacko....no...I am a whacko.
Thanks, friend. I really do appreciate all the effort you put in this. Give me a holler if you want something read sometime - I suck at format - but I have a pretty good eye for story. Cheers.