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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Screenwriting Discussion    Screenwriting Class  ›  Critically acclaimed scripts Moderators: George Willson
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BenL
Posted: July 4th, 2016, 8:52am Report to Moderator
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Hi all,

I was wondering if I'm the only one who has read a critically acclaimed screenplay only to become utterly disappointed afterwards!?

For example: I've just read a couple of pages of "Room" and I don't find the writing that appealing. Of course I can't tell if this is the final version but at least it says so.

I've also experienced the same feeling when I read other scripts, even by some well known writers/directors. That kind of sucks because I'm looking for some really good examples but some of these so called fantastic screenplays don't even have a proper formatting and lots of sentences are really awkwardly written in my opinion. Seems like the people who read these scripts actually focus more on the story itself than the wording and so on.

Did you ever wonder how a certain script could receive critical acclaim and sell for a ridiculous amount of money?

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Grandma Bear
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An audience see a movie. A story told in pictures. They couldn't care less about format, grammar, typos and word choice. Except for dialogue, of course. Story is what matters most. However, you can make yourself look like a newbie writer by having a poorly written script, but in the end it's the story and how you weave your tale that matters most. I think it was Robert McKee who said, trust me, everyone is looking for a GREAT story. I for one, believe that.


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BenL
Posted: July 4th, 2016, 9:39am Report to Moderator
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Of course story matters most but people often pay attention to all these other things so much that I wonder if that's even necessary.

I focus so much on formatting, word choice and punctuation (alongside the story) that it slows down the writing process. I always thought that this is a must-have if I want to submit a script to a contest one day or even sell it but obviously it's not, at least not that much.
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AnthonyCawood
Posted: July 4th, 2016, 10:39am Report to Moderator
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I think if you are writing on spec then you need a great story AND a script that stands out for the right reasons - not the wrong ones like formatting issues etc.

However when you read award winning or critically acclaimed scripts, these are well down the line to production scripts, and in 90% of cases were never actually spec scripts... So the readers of those, usually producers, directors and actors, are a lot more tolerant of the script format, typos etc because they understand it's their blueprint to translate it to the screen.

So Room, is a script written by the Author, based on her own novel. It's a film that the director REALLY wanted to make, to the extent that he wrote the Author a long letter explaining why he should be allowed to adapt it. Given those circumstances I'm sure the script was great for translating to a film... But wouldn't win any awards for a well formatted, 'industry standard' script... It didn't need to.

Unfortunately, until you break in and have a number of hit scripts to your name... You'll have to stick to standard and a GREAT story and hope someone spots the talent... Same for the rest of us


Anthony Cawood - Award winning screenwriter
Available Short screenplays - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/short-scripts
Available Feature screenplays - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/feature-film-scripts/
Screenwriting articles - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/articles
IMDB Link - http://www.imdb.com/name/nm6495672/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1
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Grandma Bear
Posted: July 4th, 2016, 10:42am Report to Moderator
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I haven't entered a contest in years. I could be wrong, but I think how you write matters in contests, but a little less so when trying to sell it to a production company. I've read thousands of scripts by now, and sadly it's true what they say, you can often tell after reading just the first page of a script, if the writer knows how to tell a story or not. I give that first page a read regardless of grammar, format, writing style and typos, but if the story has done nothing to peak my interest after that first page, I'm out. Sounds unfair? Of course. But, like I said, after having read so many scripts, it's often more true than not.


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eldave1
Posted: July 4th, 2016, 11:16am Report to Moderator
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For me:

Even as an amateur writer - basic formatting errors cause hiccups and serve to derail a story as I read. e.g., Okay - interesting, interesting...ERROR IN SLUG LINE.....interesting, interesting - CAMERA DIRECTION.... interesting, interesting...UNFILMABLE, etc. The very knowledge of a "rule" created speed bumps to the story. Not so before I started learning the rules. I read a script just for the entertainment/story value. I was not aware of formatting "rules" so the story always trumped format.

I have not evolved (I think) where I am back to story as the prime catalyst as my view of quality. I'm to the point now where asides ,unfilmables, etc actually enhance the read and many guidelines are completely out the window for me. Inglorious Bastards is a good example. The opening scene is 20 pages, many would say that it starts too late, ends too late, violates structure, etc - but I found it riveting. Yes, it spent 15 minutes introducing the Nazi. But for me it was tension-filled and established that I am dealing with a character that has more interest in the quality of milk than in the sanctity of life - that visualization carried me through the entire film.

The other item is that a producer can screw up a great script and vice versa. I loved the scripts for Gone Girl and the Fault In Our Stars - I did not like the movies. The script for As Good As it Gets was just okay but the film was one of my favorites.




My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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Demento
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Quoted from Grandma Bear
I've read thousands of scripts by now, and sadly it's true what they say, you can often tell after reading just the first page of a script, if the writer knows how to tell a story or not. I give that first page a read regardless of grammar, format, writing style and typos, but if the story has done nothing to peak my interest after that first page, I'm out. Sounds unfair? Of course. But, like I said, after having read so many scripts, it's often more true than not.


It not only sounds unfair, it sounds ridiculous to be honest. I know we've had this argument before, but I just can't accept your claim that you or anyone else has this ability and find it absurd. I don't mean to be harsh in any way but no one has the ability to predict where a story is going to go or how good it is by reading the first 1% of it. It's impossible. Unless you're related to Nostradamus. Doesn't matter if you read ten or a million screenplays. You're making a judgement based on your opinion on 1% of something that could have a ton of layers, twists, subplots etc.

By your admission you read the first page and if you like it you read on, if not, you stop. So, you never really read the scripts you have given up on in their entirety. In reality you don't know if you would have liked them or what you would have thought if you would have read on. Because you never did. You're going on your own assumption on what you think will happen. Or maybe by the opinion of someone else that did read the scripts in their entirety. But that's not your opinion, that's someone else's. Writing is subjective and a matter of taste. So you don't know how you would have felt if you would have read on and read the whole thing. You don't really know where it would go.

I wrote a script where the first page was a man eating dinner in front of a TV. That was it. Descriptions of a man sitting down and eating, turning on the TV, eating some more. On page two it was revealed that a man was watching him from outside his house. On page 108 you found out what the actual point of the script you were reading was and why the one man was watching the other. On page 110 the script ended. Going by page 1, you couldn't have guessed anything in terms of story. There was no story on that page. That story came together as you read on.

If you had read only the first page, you would have not known anything about what the point of the first page was or what the story of the script was. Doesn't mean it didn't have any. It just required patience. This is the way I wanted to tell that story.

Instance. Read the following page below.
Code

 THE HOSPITAL. DAY. MAY,

               PANORAMIC VIEW of The Hospital -- a vast medical complex, a 
               sprawling pastiche of architecture extending ten blocks north 
               and south on First Avenue and east to the river.

               The Hospital was founded in the late 19th century, and there 
               are still a few begrimed Victorian Bedlams and Bastilles 
               among the buildings. Mostly though, it is Medical Modern 
               1971, white and chrome and lots of glass and concrete shafts 
               and rotundas. A spanking new Community Mental Health Clinic 
               towers among the tenements at the northern end of the complex. 
               On the far side of First Avenue, a twenty-story apartment 
               house with recessed balconies and picture windows to house 
               the resident staff has just recently been completed, and 
               next to it, eight ghetto buildings are being demolished to 
               make way -- according to the construction company's sign -- 
               for a new Drug Rehabilitation Center, to be completed in 
               1973, we should all live so long. This is where the shattering 
               SOUNDS OF CONSTRUCTION are coming from. A block length of 
               generators and cement and demolition machines are POUNDING, 
               CRASHING, SCREAMING. Traffic HONKS and BRAYS up First Avenue.

               It is a cold spring morning -- 10:00 A.M.

               A 1966 station wagon pulls up to the Holly Pavilion.

               A tiny, fragile, white-bearded OLD MAN, almost lost in his 
               overcoat, is helped from the rear of a station wagon and 
               slowly led to the entrance doors by a middle-aged nurse.

                                     NARRATOR
                         On Monday morning, a patient named 
                         Guernsey, male, middle-seventies was 
                         admitted to the hospital complaining 
                         of chest pains.

               HOLLY PAVILION. EIGHTH FLOOR CORRIDOR

               The old man is now in a wheelchair pushed by a hospital 
               orderly down the corridor.

                                     NARRATOR
                         He had been referred by a nursing 
                         home where the doctor had diagnosed 
                         his condition as angina pectoris. 
                         Now it is axiomatic that nursing 
                         home doctors are always wrong.



This is just a random example I pulled from my head.

This is the first page of the script for the movie - The Hospital. It was written by Paddy Chayefsky. Who also wrote Network. The man won three Oscars for best screenplay.

What's exciting about this page 1? What can you tell about the story from this page? If you've seen the movie (which I don't like) you know that this page tells you nothing about what's going to happen in the movie. There is a shift in tone half-way through the movie.

This is a writer with 3 Oscars for writing, something that no one has ever done. Of course all this is subjective, but still proves he was held in high regard by his peers. If you don't like this page 1, does that imply that Chayefsky didn't know how to tell a story? Is this Oscar winning script, one with a bad story?

Note - that first page above is from a script that WON an Oscar, a Golden Globe, a WGA award and a BAFTA for best screenplay. It was universally regarded as the best script that year from most big organizations.

In reality you really can't tell anything from one page. You can tell if the writer is familiar with the general screenwriting format. Is English his first language. Does he have a good grasp on grammar and so on.

But story? Come on.
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Grandma Bear
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I think you missed my point entirely. I didn't say I know from the first page where the story is going. I said, I can usually tell if the writer knows how to tell a story or not. If it is apparent that the writer is new to screenwriting, then I can say I know from my experience that the story will most likely not be told in a way that is engaging or intriguing. I also did not say something exciting has to happen on the first page...


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Grandma Bear
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Quoted from Demento

In reality you really can't tell anything from one page. You can tell if the writer is familiar with the general screenwriting format. Is English his first language. Does he have a good grasp on grammar and so on.

You can reveal a lot on the first page. Character. Mystery. Dilemma. Action. Whatever. Lots of things. If there's nothing there, then IMHO, the writer is wasting space.




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LC
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Well, that first page had me right off the bat. If posted on SS this would have copped a right ribbing for all its 'tells' and 'mistakes'. The difference between the so called formatting errors and 'mistakes' the writer makes here and the mistakes of a lot of amateur writers, or for the sake of argument unpublished newbs,  is that this guy knows how to use words. He also knows exactly how to plonk me right into the time and place, and he knows how to evoke imagery. He clearly possesses that xfactor. The better question might be can this be learned, that talent? I believe there are 'naturals', they just have 'it', it's effortless, and then there are others who learn how to do it by reading and emulating and slogging away.

I can see both Pia's and Demento's points of view, but I will say I (sorry, D) I side more with Pia. I've opened a gazillion scripts too - if you don't grab me with your words, first page, make me feel like I'm in the palm of your hand, cause I don't want to let go, then unfortunately I'm onto the next one for my hit (for want of a better word).  Just a cold hard fact.


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Grandma Bear
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LIBBY!!!!  Good to see you back! Hope all is well.  


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LC
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Thanks, Pia. Good to be back, even if not in full force yet.

SS has pull, for lots of reasons.


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Demento
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Quoted from Grandma Bear
I think you missed my point entirely. I didn't say I know from the first page where the story is going. I said, I can usually tell if the writer knows how to tell a story or not. If it is apparent that the writer is new to screenwriting, then I can say I know from my experience that the story will most likely not be told in a way that is engaging or intriguing. I also did not say something exciting has to happen on the first page...


But you can't know if the writer knows how to tell a story just by reading one page. This is a very arrogant thing to say. Because a story is told over the whole length of the script. You cannot possible tell what the writer is trying to do with the first page, why it's there. You're going into the read with a bunch of assumptions and preconceived notions and not letting things play out, which is what a story should do.

There are different ways to tell stories, different narrative structures, different devices can be used. I for one do not like to read scripts where every 5 or 10 pages are their own mini story, with their own mini plot that connect to a larger one. This is something that doesn't appeal to me, but still, I have to read the whole script to understand what the story is and what each scene meant and was trying to do.

I wrote a script where the first six pages had nothing to do with the 90 that followed. But they reconnected on page 96. They featured a different setting, different time-period, different characters, different tone. They were intentionally corny but you would have never understood why that was if you stopped reading there.

I can write two pages of just describing imagery, let's say flowers, an open field. Open my script with that. Then on page 80 connect those two pages to my story and present them as a dream my main character had. Which I reveal is a major plot point to my character's development. You would find out nothing about the significance of those two pages and no story would be presented in them. Yet they could be a major puzzle piece to my plot.

If you want story, you have to read the whole thing. Good story takes time to develop. For layers to be added, subtext etc. No one ever said for example a movie like Taken featured a good story.


Quoted Text
You can reveal a lot on the first page. Character. Mystery. Dilemma. Action. Whatever. Lots of things. If there's nothing there, then IMHO, the writer is wasting space.


Maybe on it's own the first page doesn't reveal anything. But combined with the rest, it does reveal something. This is my point. That you do not know why it's there. Why it contains what it contains.

A lot of great movies open with just imagery.

What's the opening to Paris, Texas? A man walking through the desert for five minutes. Just shots of landscapes and then a man walks.

eldave1 mentioned Inglorious Bastards. The opening to that is a man chopping wood. Then a woman brings him a glass of water, then he chops some more wood. If I remember correctly. Then they talk for 15 minutes at a table.

Below is the first page out of David Lynch's movie The Straight Story. Again, just of the top of my head as a highly regarded movie. What can someone tell from this page really in terms of the writer's storytelling ability?

Code

EXT.--NIGHT SKY

	Autumn evening FULL of STARS. Music plays over
	as credits roll.

					DISSOLVE TO:

2	EXT.--DAY  LAURENS, IOWA

	It is a hot day in early September in Laurens, a small
	rural community in north central Iowa. The main
	drag, all of four blocks, is bookended by a giant
	grain elevator and a John Deere dealership. No cars
	on the road.

					CUT TO:

3	EXT.--DAY  SMALL HOUSE & NEIGHBORING HOUSE

	At the neighboring house, DOROTHY, a rather
	large woman, 50ish, with bleached blond, cropped
	hair is sunbathing in a chaise lounge. She is wearing
	bermuda shorts, a tank top and eye protectors over
	her eyes. Next to her is a small table with a plate on
	it. Out of the other house, which has chipped siding
	and faded, peeling window frames, comes ROSE
	(late 30s, brown hair in a pixie cut, stocky, in jeans
	and a cotton shirt). The door slams and Rose heads
	down the walk. Dorothy doesn't move a muscle or
	remove her eye protectors.

				DOROTHY
		Hey Rose.

	Rose doesn't break stride but yells over...

				ROSE
 		Hey Dorothy.

Rose exits and we remain on the two houses and
Dorothy sunbathing. After a moment, Dorothy
reaches over and feels the plate next to her. She lifts
the protectors and checks out the table...sees she's
out of treats, gets up, grabs the plate and heads into
her house.

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Grandma Bear
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Again, I think you misunderstand me.

Humans are amazing at pattern recognition. Like I said, after having read thousands of scripts by now. Amateur and pro, I can usually tell early on if a script is going to be good or not. This has more to do with the writer than the story itself. I have no idea after the first page what a story is going to be about. I know however from having read a lot that if the writer appears to be a newbie, the script usually falls apart completely in the second act especially. Again, I'm not pretending to know what the story will be, just that newbies rarely know how to string a satisfactory story together. And, I include myself in that category, btw.

The previous example you posted for example, I agree with Libby. "this guy knows how to use words. He also knows exactly how to plonk me right into the time and place, and he knows how to evoke imagery." That's what is revealed on the first page. It draws us in and want to read on.  Are there amazing stories I haven't read because I bailed early? Probably, but why should I waste my time reading on when I have learned from experience that 99.9% of the time I know it won't end good if there's nothing of interest on the first page? I'm not a reader that gets paid, so why should I spend my time on a script like that? Ask any studio reader or coverage or contest reader. I bet you most of them will agree. It's simple pattern recognition.

You seem mad at me for some reason. I'm just an old woman writing and reading as a hobby. If you think I'm being unfair, who does it hurt if I elect to not read someone's script? My time is limited, I'll give a script one page to make me feel anything/something. If I do, I'll read the second page. If I'm still interested, I go on until the script no longer interest me.


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James McClung
Posted: July 4th, 2016, 11:14pm Report to Moderator
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I think you can definitely tell by the first page if a script is going to be bad. Good, not so much. You can get a sense of the pace and general cause/effect that is the veritable thread the reader is meant to follow, but I don't think these things necessarily equate to "good" writing (rather, responsible or, to be a tad cynical, "marketable" writing). I can't remember the last time I read the first page of a script and felt like "I'm in the palm of your hand," for instance, even though I've read scripts that have hooked me early on. In that sense, I suppose I'd agree with Pia and Libby from a more negative place, but would also grant Demento some of his points, especially that good stories take time to develop.

At the same time, I think the whole thing with the first page has more to do with people reading scripts all the time, with professional readers going through dozens, if not hundreds of scripts per day. That's gonna wear you down, for sure, and if you're lucky enough to land a batch of scripts where the first pages aren't loaded with red flags (you won't be), you're still probably gonna prefer the writer get straight to it rather than sink a page essentially painting a picture before doing so. In that sense, I think it's more strategic to grab your reader right off the bat, since you're not necessarily gonna get a fair shake. How can you when you're lumped with hundreds upon hundreds of other scripts?

In response to the original post...

I read Cabin in the Woods several years ago. I can't for the life of me understand how anyone would think the ending doesn't totally sink the script. It renders the story incapable of standing on its own in a non-meta capacity and makes the whole thing feel like a troll. As I understand it, it's supposedly the writers' love letter to horror movies, but to me, that's completely disingenuous since the entire script is focused on the elements that make people write the genre off entirely. I'd have preferred the dudes tried to write an actual good horror movie instead of a snarky parody that basically says, "Here's how not to do it. Let's try something else now."

And speaking of first pages and the like, the script kicks off in a completely mundane office setting, as opposed to a more horror-centric environment, and while the dialogue does feature some foreshadowing, it's cryptic with little to grab onto contextually speaking and thus not enticing.


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