Hey guys,

Is it possible for the antagonist to be the lead character? Would that work?

~Zack~

IMHO, no. Your main character can be an anti hero, but not the antag.

That's just me though and I seem to be wrong about everything lately...

I'll tell you what my teacher told me:

Protagonist DOES NOT MEAN GOOD.

Antagonist DOES NOT MEAN BAD.

Examples:

Despicable me.

Shameless.

The Borgias.

The Sopranos.

House of Cards.

I can go on but you get the idea.

The protag is the person who's journey we are following. We want them to obtain their goals Good or Bad because we are made to care about them.

The antagonist is anyone or anything that is trying to get in the protags way or trying to prevent them from obtaining thier goals.

Hmm... Thanks Pia and Ashlie. I've got quite a bit to think about.

Could a serial killer/person who is planning to kill a group of innocent people be an anti-hero?

~Zack~

depends on his reasons. As a serial killer. No. Because, that is a deep psychological disorder.

As a mailman trying to avenge the death of his wife by killing a bunch of innocent people..then yes.

Our protag can be anything just as long as you write him so we care about them. No one is all evil the same that no one is all good.

For the best instance of a multi-layered antagonist look no further than the Lion King which has one of the best examples of a flawed protag and a sympathetic antag

Do you mind if I pm you my logline? I think then you will see my predicament.

~Zack~

go for it. ill try to help

All these things gets confusing because different gurus use the words to mean different things.

Dramatica theory is one I like because it splits the idea of main character and protagonist.

Your main character is the point of view of the story. We see the world through their eyes.

The protag is the one who drives the story. (The difference can be seen in to Kill a Mockingbird. Its the Father who is the protag, he drives all the story, but the main character, the POV is his daughter, Scout...in that story this has a very powerful thematic resolution at the end, when we as the audience realise we've been watching proceedings with a "childish" point of view). Anyway, I digress.

If the protag is also the main character..then they are the "Hero".


It's a good way of looking at it...more precise

.In terms of antagonist..it depends on how you define the technical term, I would say. He is usually the one trying to stop the protag. Or it can simply be someone that is hostile.

A main character or protag can be as hostile or evil as you like. An absolute psycho. You'll probably want to humanise them a touch, otherwise it will be too hard to watch for most, but anyone can be the main character. You need to make the audience empathise...not sympathise. Understand, if not completely condone. Like Michael Douglas in Falling Down..we understand why he goes crazy, even though we kind of know it's not right.

Your antagonist in that scenario will be the "good guys"..The Police etc because they're trying to stop him.

Is that what you mean?

Or do you specifically mean that the obstacle character, the person trying to stop the protag, can be the main character?


That may also be OK.


A scenario could be that Someone is trying to bring Peace to the World. It's a world-wide movement. On all the TVs. Everyone is very excited. The Protag is the guy pushing it all, changing the world.

Your main character is a Nihilist, watching all this and decides he's going to stop it all.

Every time the Protag does something. He ruins it. He's the main character because we see it all from his POV.

This would probably be a darkly humorous story about the Human condition, and the inability to fix the world's problems.

That's about as close as you can get.. it's arguable that he's technically become the Protag in some uses of the word, because in some uses of the word the main character is always the protag.

Quoted from Zack Hmm... Thanks Pia and Ashlie. I've got quite a bit to think about. Could a serial killer/person who is planning to kill a group of innocent people be an anti-hero? ~Zack~

Yes, but his reasons would have to be something we could empathise with imo.

For instance....let's say your man decides to kill people who try to tell everyone what to do....so we see him hill Politicians, Environmentalists, Feminists etc

He could be an anti-hero type because he'd represent a kind of twisted freedom people could appreciate. Even though what's he's doing isn't right.

Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer also shows, btw, that an almost entirely evil character can lead a film.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099763/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_113

Quoted Text During the screening of the film at the 1989 Telluride Festival, nearly half the audience walked out during the family massacre scene. When the film finished, it was met with complete silence, as the audience were so stunned by what they had just seen and didn't know how to react. As director John McNaughton was leaving the theatre, he was approached by a distressed man who informed him: "You can't do that". McNaughton asked him what he meant, and the man explained that you couldn't make a film about a murderer who gets away in the end, without punishment or without any kind of moral resolution, reiterating "You can't do that". McNaughton thought about this for a moment, and then said to the man: "We just did".

Wow. That's a lot to take in. Thank you Scar. I'm gonna let this all sink in and see how it changes my approach. I've actually recently watch Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer. Very interesting film. Not at all what I'm going for with my project, but it definitely has me thinking. I really appreciate all the advice everyone is giving me and please know it is not falling on deaf ears. I'm soaking it all up.

~Zack~

Hey, Zack. I endorse Rick's comment completely, that's as fine a comment as you will get.

I'll add a penny's worth: once the story progresses, what will the audience want to see happening with the character? This critical element often gets neglected in hero's journey discussions. For example, in our story about Hitler during the war, his need might be to learn to accept the love of Ava Braun, but we in the audience probably don't care if he solves his problem and marries her.

So if your protagonist is a serial killer, what anticipation in the audience will be created? Will we want to see him become like Dexter and use his terrible urges only for good? Is there some level of growth or redemption we are hoping he will achieve? For example, serial killers have a hard time empathizing with people. Maybe your character will manage some success in this and get his urge to kill under control.

Usually a protagonist is either a change character who undergoes transformation, or he is a character who has the inner strength to resist forces of harmful change, and so he does not change at all, but his strength prompts beneficial change in those around him/her. Which type will your hero be?

It could actually be a very interesting story if you try the latter, where he is a character that does not change, but his constancy creates positive change in others around him. I think in this way, you would have a kind of ensemble of characters that we get to know and care about. The killer is more of a change agent than a true protagonist. He's a clever device that causes others to change. Although that's pretty close to being an antagonist, which also performs that function. The key thing is to create anticipation in the audience. What are they sitting on the edge of their seats hoping will happen?

This is also a really great one to check out with a 'Bad' protag/hero

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388367/

Redemption. Jaime Foxx as Stan Tookie leader of the Crips before his execution. He actually wins a noble peace prize for his children's books on peace.

So many examples of what you're asking, Zack.

Rick is right for sure.

Look at Game of Thrones - are there any actual "good" lead characters?

Look at all the Friday the 13th movies.  Who's the main character, usually?  If you say so and so on this one and so and so in that one, I'd say you're wrong.  Jason is the main character, and IMO, he's always the Antagonist...but yet, peeps have cheered for him for 30 plus years.

This thread is way to antagonistic!  

Quoted from eldave1 This thread is way to antagonistic!

lol, whatever do you mean?

It's a cool question. In a strict sense, the antagonist is always oppositional to the protagonist, so they definitely can't be the protagonist. That doesn't mean they can't be the lead character, if "lead character" means something different than "protagonist."

Iago is the antagonist of Othello but also the lead character in having by far the most lines. The Joker is the antagonist of The Dark Knight but I think a strong case could be made that he's the lead character in driving the movie's plot and themes.

I guess there's also the Usual Suspects type trick, in which the antagonist is technically the lead character, but that's really only true in the abstract, and doesn't affect the story thorughout.

And maybe films like Psycho and Death Proof (or Wolf Creek 2!), which shift protagonists partway through while keeping the same antagonist, might be an argument for antagonist as lead character.

Hi All,

Not sure where to put this, however, it seems to fit in here… for now. Anyways, this is a question for the mods, I think.

1) I’ve never started a thread, I’m not sure how to do that actually and, do I need permission to start a new thread? Any bit of feedback on that would be greatly appreciated, as well…

2) I see George Willson is listed as the mod for this section of the board. Would I ‘PM’ him to inquire about potential thread content, whether it would be construed as relevant to a screenwriting class or not?

I’m somewhat curious about character and script development in a different light, a different way of approaching it that is and, how others might approach their character development outside of the actual writing process. Perhaps inspiration is the key theme. Thanks in advance.

Quoted from Gum Hi All, Not sure where to put this, however, it seems to fit in here… for now. Anyways, this is a question for the mods, I think. 1) I’ve never started a thread, I’m not sure how to do that actually and, do I need permission to start a new thread? Any bit of feedback on that would be greatly appreciated, as well… 2) I see George Willson is listed as the mod for this section of the board. Would I ‘PM’ him to inquire about potential thread content, whether it would be construed as relevant to a screenwriting class or not? I’m somewhat curious about character and script development in a different light, a different way of approaching it that is and, how others might approach their character development outside of the actual writing process. Perhaps inspiration is the key theme. Thanks in advance.

Not a mod - but I think the Screenwriting Class Thread is just fine for that topic. All you need to do is to go to that category on the discussion board. When you do - on the far right hand side of the screen (near the top) you will see a button "NEW THREAD". Just click it and you are on your way.

Ah yes… I wasn’t aware of the that button, seems intuitive enough, thanks

No problem

Let's boil this down to one simple rule, the ultimate goal of a main character is to break the isolation between this "new world" and the audience, to pull them into the story and make them care so the story is no longer impenetrable.

This does NOT mean you have to sympathize with him, or cry for him when tragedy hits, or even think he's a decent human being. In fact he could be a deplorable horrible person. Daniel Plainview is an example of this. One way or another, a well written character makes the audience think "I want to know more about you and your story." You can do this by making them likable and sympathetic, which, admittedly is an easier way to do it, or you can can make them horrible people, that you can still empathize with in some way, and still fascinates you on some cerebral level. Either way, just make the audience want to know him.

Ultimately I'd say going the traditional former route is easier, but do what works for you.

My favorite anti-hero lead in a film: Daniel Plainview (Daniel Day-Lewis) in There Will Be Blood

I got to go with McMurphy in Cuckoo's Nest

Zach, there are tons of film where the main is the antagonist.  If you want you can pm me and I'll give you my opinion.

In the right circumstances, I think the main character could be protagonist and antagonist.  

I haven't seen Split, but isn't he both?  One character is good and another character within the same man is evil.

What is Godzilla?  Or Galactus?  Are they evil?  As Jeff pointed out, some villains get cheered all the time.

Different medium, but the Undertaker in wrestling was supposed to be evil but at his matches people were cheering when he'd put people in the morgue bags.  So Vince and him altered his character to be  more  of an antihero.  

I wouldn't mind seeing a villain lead movie/reading a villain lead script, but I usually do not fall in with the popular oppinion. Sad to say.

It's all about the audience having someone to root for.

Someone mentioned 'There will be blood', it has been a while since I saw it, if I remember right Plainview did a character decline and he had opposition  (Paul Dano). Bad guy vs. Bad guy and a character arc.

My biggest piece of advice is: write with a low budget in mind.

Quoted from WritingScripts I wouldn't mind seeing a villain lead movie/reading a villain lead script

A villain can definitely be the lead, but s/he still needs to have a goal and obstacles in the way. If the lead is a serial killer hell bent on killing as many people as possible before beer time,   , then the person trying to stop the serial killer will be the antagonist. Just role reversals. IMHO.  

In The Devil's Rejects, we follow a trio of nasty criminals. One of them, Otis, is a necrophiliac, serial-killing rapist, and one could argue he's the movie's protagonist.

The term "protagonist" is sometimes considered to be synonymous with "hero" only because protagonists have so often been heroic in the past. But times change.

Protagonist: This is the character we follow. We see the movie through this character's perspective. The movie's journey is his/hers.

Antagonist: This is simply a character that defies the protagonist and blocks the protagonist's goals.

Neither definition necessitates any dogmatic definition of "hero" or "villain."

I think Pia and the others are right on this one.

-Julio