Quoted from leitskev But still, it's really hard to pull these scenes off... Are there any other techniques people can suggest?

I wish I knew. I’m in the same boat when it comes to writing anything that might be construed as ‘loaded with tension’.

Sometimes, I think the scene plays itself out based on elements no one could have anticipated at the time of shooting; those involved in production that is, and perhaps, not really what the writer had in mind for tension but, saw it come to life when the actors took it into their own hands.

A good example is the “Do I amuse you like a clown?” scene from Goodfellas. From what I understand, that was ‘Pesci’ just doing what he does so well… act. The scene wasn’t even scripted, he improvised the whole thing. You can see the immediate ‘WTF’ look on everyone’s face in the scene but, they just rolled with it. Great scene loaded with tension but, not even on the page.

Another similar scene that Johnny Depp took the  upper echelons of tension was his portrayal of ‘James "Whitey" Bulger’ in Black Mass.  You may have seen it but, the dinner scene has this immediate tension that went from fun to ‘whoa! … this dude is creepy.” I believe that scene was on the page, but still.. worked so well.

I recall watching a documentary from/about Duff McKagan on Netflix a few months back. He stated, that Guns n’ Roses was put together and in the studio almost immediately after the band was formed. He said something like: “all the right elements were somehow put in place to enable them to instantly gel and crank out one of the best selling debut albums in the history of rock.” Not years of practice together, just 5 guys coming together to make something happen like it was destined to do so. He was told by execs in the industry that shit like that just “Doesn’t happen but once in a lifetime.”

I think movies are somehow like this… the best ones that is. A script, director with a vision, good actors, and a chemistry that somehow follows the movie crew around from the first scene to the last. Like the Gods somehow pointed a finger down from the sky on the first day of shooting and said… “Make it happen.”

Tod Browning liked to use silence to build tension.

@ Rick

What, Rick? I read into one of your latest scripts some time ago - where the guy loses the girl and goes to war in France by ship.

I then had not found the power to comment on the script; although I actually wanted to give you feedback; because it felt so demanding intellectually, to communicate about it. You act there, as usually, as a completely fanciful writer who only works with instincts. Whatever you say here does not mirror your work to me in any way.

Yeah, but if one wants to be a writer, they better learn how to write tension into a scene in a way that the READER can feel it. This is one of the biggest differences between pro scripts and highly(perhaps overly?) trained amateurs.

This is what gives pro scripts that readability. You fly through a pro script. And amateur script, no matter how well written, is almost always a chore to get through;.

I do have something to add to the list though, something that can be hugely important to scene construction. Back to that in a moment!

The most common way to build tension into a scene is by having 2 characters with opposing goals. Thus you have conflict.

But it's not the only way. Hitchcock gave the famous example of two guys talking over coffee. No conflict, just friendly talk. Add a bomb under the table that the audience knows about and you have tension. Dramatic irony is what it's called I believe,

I have a list somewhere that I started compiling a few years back that lists situations with natural tension. For example, a man afraid of speaking in public is forced to give a speech. I had quite a few things on this list. Anything that makes the audience uncomfortable, that's tension. The geek has a crush on the cheerleader, and finds himself through circumstance sitting next to her on the bus. A patient has something really embarrassing to tell the doctor. All kinds of things.

Ok, now for what I just learned. I've been watching comics. This is also a form of storytelling. They also use the technique of keeping audiences uncomfortable. But the big thing I learned tonight watching them: surprise.

They use surprise. Yeah, a punchline is obviously a surprise, but it's much more than punchline use, which requires a set up. I was watching Dave Chapelle. Most of his laughs comes from simple surprise inserts. He'll be telling a story, several normal things are listed...and then something unexpected. There's often humor in that. And it keeps us paying attention.

Now, surprises won't build tension by themselves. However, what builds tension is delay after a good set up...and surprises can help build that delay.

So let's look at the QT Bastards scene. The tension is established with the stakes(the farmer's family). We know if the farmer makes a mistake hos family will ay the price. Now QT needs to DELAY the conclusion of that build up. One useful too is surprise. We don't expect the colonel to ask for milk, or pull out a ludicrous pipe to smoke.

Yeah, it's all s**** with the writing, big problem of the medium itself and a huge task for us.

Screenplays don't read like prose, Goethe or Hemingway. It's just forward, forward, forward. I read about 50+ professional scripts. My favorite one, the only one I liked in case of reading experience was "Fear and Loathing", there, you can perceive Hunter, even if the adaption process.

That screenplays read good, is an illusion. That they can read bad is truth though.

OMG!  I can hardly contain myself any longer.

Well, actually, I can't contain myself any longer, as I'm responding.

Kevin, you continuously, over and over, pounding it again and again, say something to the effect that there's such a big difference in a "Pro" script and an "Amateur" script.

I disagree so vehemently!!

It's as if every "pro" script is this unbelievable piece of work, or movie, but in reality, the vast majority of "Pro" scripts suck someone's arsehole.  And, the majority of actual wide screen release movies, from "Pro" scripts, usually multiple "Pros", are downright pathetic!

Your examples keep coming from "Classic" films and Top Notch writers, but the reality is that there's so much more out there!  So much more that deserves a nod of recognition

All this garbage about what a script has to contain, what a scene needs to have, is just that...GARBAGE!

I don't know how many movies you watch a week, month, year, or in total, but my bet is that the number is relatively small.  If you watched more and watched all types of flicks, from big budget to small Indie, you'd change your tune and understand that like Canis said, sometimes, things just work, and in reality, that's really how it works.

And it's not based on following some dumbass formula or making sure this and that is within every scene, character, and shot.

Just write what works...what makes sense, what's entertaining, and I bet you'll feel a whole lot better about life in general.

Calgon, take me away!!!

Jeff, you are even more clueless this time of night. I'm not wasting time with you. You know a lot about asides and stuff. Have fun with that useless knowledge.

My examples, ironically, when it comes to pro scripts, never come from classic scripts. I never read those scripts. I only read recently written spec scripts generally.

I do use movie examples to illustrate a point, and naturally I try to use movies we are all familiar with.

I have challenged Jeff many times to name ONE pro script he approves of. One! He never has. He never will.

Because there are no pro scripts that conform to the rules he was taught in some class. He'd rather count asides than look at what works or doesn't, and sadly I am not exaggerating. He once trashed an Oscar winning script because he counted the number of orphans, sentences that run onto an extra line by a single word. I kid you not, that's what he looks for.

Jeff, just stay out of this particular thread. You have nothing to add. We're not discussing rules.

I'm sorry, Kevin, but I can't just stay out.

Once again, it is you who brings up rules and the like, not me.

Unless I'm totally delusional, you have been referencing exact scenes in this thread...like QT's IB.  Over and over, in fact, much as you have in past threads.

It's very funny, actually, as so many peeps discuss this opening scene, and although it works, it's so far from an example that would work in almost any other situation, that's it's redonkulous to continue to try and have peeps emulate it.

It's also funny how you and others like you only quote this scene from IB.  Why not talk about how amazing the 25 minute scene is where they're playing that game in the bar?  It's very powerful, right?  It's also insanely long and dull and overblown, too.

Oh, my friend.  I respect how you try and help peeps.  I really do.  I just hope these peeps understand how unimportant all these ramblings really are.

For some reason, which I'll never understand, so many peeps feel the need to "rationalize" things and put them into a box, and say, "Here's why this works, and because it works here, make sure everything else can fit into this same box."

Leave your boxes at home, my brother.  You don't need them.

It would be a shame to see the thread derailed because of infighting. It is an interesting topic.

Jeff: Pro scripts are a valuable reference point because they have been filmed and it gives one the opportunity to see whether what works on paper also works on the screen. Yes, there are tons of shitty pro scripts and an equal number of crappy films. So, just assume that when one is referencing pro scripts they are doing so because it gives a rare opportunity to compare something on paper to something on film. The opening in IB is a great scene IMO and worthy of analysis. Pro scripts are also valuable because the writer is more at liberty to color outside the box then your average day amateur and we also get to see how that works. No one is going to give a shit about whether QT, Sorkin, Allen (insert your favorite) follows rules and guidelines. They are liberated from these constraints.

Kevin: Rules and guidelines are valuable and it is beneficial to have peeps around, like Jeff, who have knowledge of those rules. When I first starting writing and joined this site, I knew very little of them. I learned here and am a better writer from having learned them. I do not think they are a be all end all, but they have their place.

Long winded way of saying you both have valid, but differing points of view. You should both focus more on the commonality rather than exploding on the differences. It is counter productive and pointless. Stick to the valid reasons that you share different views.

Dave

I don't want to see the thread derailed either. And if it continues in that direction, I'll just got back into hibernation because it's a waste of time. I have a May 1 deadline on something and the clock is ticking very loudly now.

I also learned the rules from Jeff when I began, I always express my appreciation.

And then I moved on.

A little on that. Within that first year of writing screen, I was already questioning things, as Jeff might remember. At first, applying the rules was great because it improved my writing. But then I began to run into situations where the rules not only didn't offer a good solution, but finding the optimal solution meant breaking the rule. At this point, I had no access to current pro spec scripts. All I had were old classics, so I didn't even bother reading them, those scripts didn't even resemble what seemed to be modern rules.

Then I ended up on the mailing list for Scriptshadow back when he was sending out scripts. So I'd get about 4 pro level spec scripts a week. Many of these never even made it into production. But, wow, what a difference. I had read a lot of amateur scripts at SS over a couple of years, giving people notes or just reading features scripts. The difference was night and day, midnight to noon. Almost every pro script I read had a compelling story and was written in a style that made it more readable. I had never read a single amateur script that even approached that. There was no single pro style. But all of them were written in a way light years more effective than amateur scripts, even those by long time amateur writers.

The journey continued. I would get the Nciholls scripts every year, scripts on the tracking board, Oscar scripts, Hit List scripts. Not all pro scripts were great, in fact almost all of them have some notable flaw. But even in the really unappealing stories, they almost all had much more compelling writing styles. And none of them adhered to the rules the way many like Jeff think they are written.

What helped these pro writers separate from the pack? Talent, of course.

But I would guess this: courage. They have the courage to think for themselves. They don't mindlessly parrot rules, whether writing rules or story rules.

They THINK about what they are doing. And the write a lot of scripts trying to master that. They don't spend two years polishing the orphans out of their scripts. They learn how to craft scenes that draw out interest, hold our attention, make us feel. They learn how to use writing styles that achieve that for a reading audience.

My writing is not pro. My writing is a TON better than it was. And that growth came from analyzing, questioning, thinking about what works in a scene. It's not a box, because there are many kinds of scenes that work. Apparently it takes courage to look under the hood, to look inside that box and see what's in there.

I didn't start this thread to "help people". I started it to hopefully learn a new trick or two, because I need them. I shared my thoughts hoping others would do the same. I'm still learning. I'm done counting orphans though.

I don't really see the need to argue about rules here. The thread is about how to "milk the tension cow". That's a good worthy discussion, in my book.

We do have different experiences.

I have read amateur scripts that I thought were great and pro scripts that I thought were dreadful. Again, what I get most from pro scripts is the ability to compare what is on the screen to what is written since they do not always translate. As an example, I loved the scripts for Gone Girl and The Fault in Our Stars and in both cases thought the movies were mediocre. The inverse has been true is well. I do agree that in general, your average Pro script is going to be better than your average Amateur script. But is not my experience that Pro script = good and Amateur script = bad.

In terms of rules and guidelines, IMO breaking them does not make a script good and adhering to them does not make a script bad. I also believe that if you are going to write outside the guidelines, have a good reason.

In the area of unfilmables and asides s an example. Sometimes their use greatly enhances the readability of a script.  They can help establish tone and pace and IMO give the Director some leeway to figure out how to shoot it. Other times they are lazy and used to substitute for what should be made clear in action or dialogue. Long winded way of saying rules are not bad. But making story and clarity sub-servant to them is.

I also don't think it is an element of courage as it is as much liberty. A pro writer bares little risk from having a script hit the reject pile because of a format or rule issue. Conversely, it could be deadly for an amateur because many of those guarding the fortress  between script and production are looking for any reason to filter the thousands of scripts that I have to read.

Nor do I think talent is necessarily the dividing line between pro and amateur. Why - because it is not true in almost any form of the arts. For example, how many times have you heard a great singer or a band at a local bar and asked yourself how in God's name did they not get a record deal and Britney Spears did?  Talent does not necessarily equal success and the absence of success does not equal the absence of talent.

Anyway - we agree on the core issue. Story and clarity are king.  If you are turning the pages the writer has done a good job.  

I don't want the thread derailed, either, and for that, I apologize.

I also don't want to cause someone to leave the site, feel bullied, or whatever it is I may be making Kevin feel.

Quoted from Dreamscale I don't want the thread derailed, either, and for that, I apologize. I also don't want to cause someone to leave the site, feel bullied, or whatever it is I may be making Kevin feel.

If there was a LIKE button I would have hit it . Good post