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I have read amateur scripts that I thought were great and pro scripts that I thought were dreadful. Again, what I get most from pro scripts is the ability to compare what is on the screen to what is written since they do not always translate. As an example, I loved the scripts for Gone Girl and The Fault in Our Stars and in both cases thought the movies were mediocre. The inverse has been true is well. I do agree that in general, your average Pro script is going to be better than your average Amateur script. But is not my experience that Pro script = good and Amateur script = bad.
In terms of rules and guidelines, IMO breaking them does not make a script good and adhering to them does not make a script bad. I also believe that if you are going to write outside the guidelines, have a good reason.
In the area of unfilmables and asides s an example. Sometimes their use greatly enhances the readability of a script. They can help establish tone and pace and IMO give the Director some leeway to figure out how to shoot it. Other times they are lazy and used to substitute for what should be made clear in action or dialogue. Long winded way of saying rules are not bad. But making story and clarity sub-servant to them is.
I also don't think it is an element of courage as it is as much liberty. A pro writer bares little risk from having a script hit the reject pile because of a format or rule issue. Conversely, it could be deadly for an amateur because many of those guarding the fortress between script and production are looking for any reason to filter the thousands of scripts that I have to read.
Nor do I think talent is necessarily the dividing line between pro and amateur. Why - because it is not true in almost any form of the arts. For example, how many times have you heard a great singer or a band at a local bar and asked yourself how in God's name did they not get a record deal and Britney Spears did? Talent does not necessarily equal success and the absence of success does not equal the absence of talent.
Anyway - we agree on the core issue. Story and clarity are king. If you are turning the pages the writer has done a good job.
And I'd hit the "Like" button on this, as well.
And, I will go into a little more detail here, as well...
The issue I have with most of Kevin's posts is that they all talk about rules and why it's OK to break them. Then, we're given examples of Pro scripts, where rules don't come into play, which is then equated to a Pro being better than an Amateur, and therefor, rules need not apply, once one actually knows these rules.
What I always say is that "rules" don't have much to do with anything, really, and shouldn't be viewed as "rules". It's about what's right, what's wrong, what make sense, and why something is deemed as right, and why something is deemed as wrong.
Check this out...
It's the law that we adhere to speed limits, while driving, right? Why is that? It's so we're all (in theory) driving at the same speed, which results in less situations where accidents occur - it's for our safety. If half the traffic is driving at the speed limit and the other half is going 20 MPH faster, there are going to be problems. If you're driving along a lonely open highway, with no traffic, trying to get to your destination as quickly as you can, do you need to adhere to the speed limit of 65, 70, or 75 MPH? Well, if a cop is in the area and catches you going 90, you're most likely going to be pulled over and given a hefty ticket, but in terms of why the speed is set where it's at, going an extra 10, 15, or even 20 MPH all by yourself is not going to be a problem (and I'm talking about wide open, straight freeway, not dangerous curvy, and/or mountainous terrain). You don't have to be a Pro driver to break that rule.
If you think Shane Black is cool, then throw in a bunch of asinine asides, and see where that gets you. But also understand, they have no purpose whatsoever in a script, they will not transfer to film, and therefor, they're a waste of space.
If you think Shane Black is cool, then throw in a bunch of asinine asides, and see where that gets you. But also understand, they have no purpose whatsoever in a script, they will not transfer to film, and therefor, they're a waste of space.
If it got me where Shane Black is I would be ecstatic! I love his scripts.
It's not a matter of being bullied. I think Jeff knows me better than that. It's a matter of wasting time. Frankly, a lot of writers I think move on from Simplyscripts because the conversation is continuously dragged back to the introductory level when then want to move on to graduate level work. If that sounds arrogant it can;t be helped.
No one should break "rules" to be cool, and Jeff keeps saying that same mantra as though that's the reason most pros break them. It has nothing to do with that, except in unique cases like Shane Black. It has to do with the simple fact that the rules become a limiting factor in certain situations that prevent the script from being written in its best form. I'm not a pro, but I have written a lot of scripts. At least a dozen features and a fair sample of shorts. So I've run into plenty of situations where the rules just don't lead to the best writing.
And I'm not just talking about the writing rules. I'm talking about story plotting rules too.
I think you never stop learning about what's the best way to craft a scene, to build scenes towards something, and so forth. There are people here that have insights. I'm eager to absorb them. If the cost is my sharing so,e of my own, I'll pay it.
Jeff is not interested in any of this stuff. Fine. But why interrupt this thread? I don;t mind a good shit storm now and then, I just don't have time.
Jeff is not interested in any of this stuff. Fine. But why interrupt this thread? I don;t mind a good shit storm now and then, I just don't have time.
I am very interested and entertained by this stuff. That doesn't mean I can't disagree with it or chime in when I feel the need.
There will always be examples of instances where the norm doesn't quite work or something else works better. That is not a debate, IMO, nor is it the topic of this thread.
As for following "classic" structure or the like, everyone knows I am not a follower or believer in such garbage.
Take the example that's come up here numerous times on the opening of QT's IB. Analyze it all you want. Point out exactly what it has in it and why it's so amazing, and how it follows this or that, but at the end of the day, it works for what it is and the movie it's a part of.
No reason IMO to think one has to emulate it or the characters involved. It worked here, it did not work in the later scene with the bar game, nor did a similar technique work in Hateful Eight (although it was reversed).
Jeff, it's equally useful to look at those scenes you mentioned and figure out why they didn't work, I'm not trying to hold QT up, I'm just trying to look under the hood and examine the mechanics of a scene, what makes it work or not work. I find it strange that someone who wants to understand screenwriting/storytelling/moviemaking would not want to do that.
So why not give it a try?
You get annoyed by my attempts to get under the hood because you don't really like looking under the hood. It's easier to stick to the familiar: slugs, orphans, etc.
But the thing is you're an intelligent guy, there's no reason you can't start taking a close look at scenes. If there is a chance this could help your own work, why wouldn't you take it? There is a fear here that you need to get past.
I don't say this to provoke, but rather to challenge. Watch a movie, pick out some scenes that work or don't work, and try to get to the why of it. Just saying "it works because it works"...come on, you can do better than that.
I just don't work like that. All these things you look for, point out, and have discussions about, are done in my head pretty much instantly, which is why I keep saying things just work, or things just don't work.
I've yet to see evidence of any of this stuff done in your head, Jeff. That's not a poke. I just have never seen any in depth discussion of a scene. And you've not written very many screenplays over all these years, which suggests some writer's block issues. Maybe these could be cleared up by thinking beyond orphans and slugs? Suit yourself. But shouldn't you recognize that people that make films and sell scripts do tend to think about these things? So maybe not insert yourself into these types of conversations that you have no interest in.
Kevin, if that's not a poke, I guess I'm out of touch as to what a poke is.
Orphans, Slugs, grammar, and the like are all aspects of the "written script"...as in, they're all on the page and what we all see as readers. You and I know damn well they have nothing to do with a filmed movie.
No writer's block here, either. I just don't have that much interest in the actual writing anymore. Maybe some day, I'll jump back in.
But, unlike you, I watch alot of movies and I do know what works and what doesn't and why. The problem is that based on the vast majority of movies, Pro writers don't know these very simple concepts.
As I said yesterday, I am interested in these discussions and am very entertained by them, so please, don't stop on account of me. I'll be here, I'll be watching, and every now and then, I'll be commenting.
That opening was brilliant stuff. Shame about the rest of the film though.
How does one create more "general tension," in situations where their isn't anything life threatening or conspiratorial going on but there's a conflict nonetheless?
That's the question, how to create tension. How to build it, how to milk it for all its worth.
The stakes don't have to be life an death. It could be a geeky guy asking the cheerleader out to the prom. It could be a wife telling her gentle husband she's leaving him. It could be the stuttering prince in the King's Speech who has to give a radio address. It could be someone bumbling through an audition for a part they really want in a play. It could be a preacher giving a sermon on faithfulness while his wife AND his girlfriend are in the pews.
Unlike Jeff, I think it's useful to analyze this stuff. For example, you might have a scene in your feature that is essential to the story, but it lacks tension and conflict. There might be tricks to adding that to the scene. You might add a character to the scene, or place the scene in a more unusual setting.
he stakes don't have to be life an death. It could be a geeky guy asking the cheerleader out to the prom. It could be a wife telling her gentle husband she's leaving him. It could be the stuttering prince in the King's Speech who has to give a radio address.
Exactly. Take a film like As Good As it Gets - a lite rom-com. There is tension in every scene because they all either involve:
- Nicholson's fear of everything from door handles to cracks in the sidewalks. - Nicholson's discomfort with homosexuals - Kinnears conflict with his parents - Helen's Hunt unending journey to find health for her son - etc.
Small everyday struggles where the writer continually puts the character in scenes where they are faced with these struggles. Small conflicts creating great tension - and comedic tension at that.
Black comedian Dave Chappelle, before a black audience in Detroit, begins a segment: "Let me tell you why I hang around with white people."
It creates tension...and then he delivers a punch line.
Tension in a rom com begins with creating ANTICIPATION.
First, we set it up so the audience wants to see two people get together romantically. This involves making us empathize with the characters, making us see them as vulnerable and the perfect match for each other.
Once the set up is done, the anticipation is there...but the story keeps throwing obstacles in the way. Those scenes are easy to build tension into.
Black comedian Dave Chappelle, before a black audience in Detroit, begins a segment: "Let me tell you why I hang around with white people."
It creates tension...and then he delivers a punch line.
Tension in a rom com begins with creating ANTICIPATION.
First, we set it up so the audience wants to see two people get together romantically. This involves making us empathize with the characters, making us see them as vulnerable and the perfect match for each other.
Once the set up is done, the anticipation is there...but the story keeps throwing obstacles in the way. Those scenes are easy to build tension into.
If I can make a suggestion? Personally, when looking at a movie or screenplay known for perfect or groundbreaking events, I don't really learn as much as when I look at a screenplay or movie that tried to do something and failed and died a terrible horrible death.
For every Grease there is a grease 2.
I think some if not all, might learn by looking at the mistakes in scripts, even pro ones.
I know that I couldn't spot my own OTN dialogue until I saw it in someone else's story.
So perhaps instead of trying to break down a script that works, or that has been broken down in the past, we should focus on a bad story and see where the writer went wrong and how they could have fixed it.
There are tons of pro and amateur scripts to choose from, but if people don't feel comfortable having their choices ripped apart with the fervor that Jeff attacks an orphan, then, I'd allow my stories to be used.
I'm interested in reading animation, horror, sci fy, suspense, fantasy, and anything that is good. I enjoy writing the same. Looking to team with anyone!
Dan, I have another thread called dissecting the scene. I had though, similar to your suggestion, that it might be good to post examples of scenes that don't work, as well as scenes that work, and try to figure why the scene didn't work.
The thing is, it's easier to discuss scenes that worked because those are the ones that usually become iconic, so most of us know them.
I really don't want to get into reading amateur scenes though. I've read a lot of amateur screenplays in my day, generally found it to be painful and frustrating. No doubt people experience the same with mine. So I'd rather stick to scenes on youtube and pro work.
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milking the tension cow
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