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The only thing that seems to come close is when we engage in a debate on a writing "rule." That really brings the peeps out.
I haven't been too active of late but I hope to get back on here again more regularly.
However, this is one of the reasons why I have drifted from the site. As you rightly pointed out, people love to get into the nitty gritty about rules rather than, as far as I can tell, talk about story and character which is far more important and, dare I say, interesting. Script discussion boards dry up fast but a thread with "format" or "rules" in its title gets serious traffic. It's a shame really.
I compare it to the predominant conversation in English club soccer/football right now which is all about the pending introduction of VAR (Video Assisted Refereeing) rather than talking about the game itself. Its equally as tiresome as talking about formatting ad nauseum.
Of course, learning the format and discussing the rules is part of screenwriting, I just feel the attention it receives is disproportionate to its importance.
Anyway, apologies for my non-related-to-OWC rambling.
And in all conversations I've had with Producers and Directors, the niceties of formatting have NEVER come up.
It seems to be just something the screenwriting community obssess over.
Perhaps because it is a lot easier to say "you've got an orphan" or it should be V.O. not O.C. than it is to actually provide constructive story/character feedback - which is by nature more subjective.
Of course there's need for some structure and standardisation in the script formatting but I just don't think it's anywhere near as important (to those who matter) as we think it is.
I'm now off to add some 'we see's to my latest script
Perhaps because it is a lot easier to say "you've got an orphan" or it should be V.O. not O.C. than it is to actually provide constructive story/character feedback - which is by nature more subjective.
Oh I would say there is no "perhaps" about it. That's the primary reason. As you say, it's far easier to comb through a script and say what is right and wrong on a formatting level while it takes a certain degree of critical thinking to discuss story, character and (I forgot to mention) theme. The fact that the latter is more subjective is not really an issue I think. Just add the caveat that this is your opinion and articulate it.
Don't really see the issue with commenting on formatting, to be honest. (I'm talking the basics here, not things like orphans etc).
If a writer hasn't bothered to learn the basics of formatting, it can be a precursor to what the story is going to be like - because they probably haven't bothered to learn about story structure, characterization, plot blah blah blah.
Never knowingly spoken to producers or directors - so no idea what they look for - but I would imagine they don't mention it because it's a basic that's expected to be there. Like if the formatting is fine no one will comment because no one has noticed, but if it's terrible it sticks out. Kinda like if you are buying a house you wouldn't be like "It has running water, excellent" - but if it didn't you would be like "no running water? WTF!" - Sorry about this, I am terrible at explaining myself.
Also, again I have no experience so don't know, but generally don't we have to get past script readers first before a producer or director see's it? aren't they generally writers themselves who can and will pick up on formatting issues?
Where am I going with this? I dunno - I guess when people point out formatting things on my scripts, I find it helpful. There are always other reviewers who point out story elements.
I haven't been too active of late but I hope to get back on here again more regularly.
However, this is one of the reasons why I have drifted from the site. As you rightly pointed out, people love to get into the nitty gritty about rules rather than, as far as I can tell, talk about story and character which is far more important and, dare I say, interesting. Script discussion boards dry up fast but a thread with "format" or "rules" in its title gets serious traffic. It's a shame really.
I compare it to the predominant conversation in English club soccer/football right now which is all about the pending introduction of VAR (Video Assisted Refereeing) rather than talking about the game itself. Its equally as tiresome as talking about formatting ad nauseum.
Of course, learning the format and discussing the rules is part of screenwriting, I just feel the attention it receives is disproportionate to its importance.
Anyway, apologies for my non-related-to-OWC rambling.
Hey col!
Hope you’re well. Been a while!
My view on it is that the formatting discussions are fine, but they shouldn’t get an outsized focus, which does sometimes happen. I tend to avoid commenting on format, preferring to offer views on story and characters; is there tension, is there conflict, is it filmmable, etc. I also like to offer my own ideas on plot, which are just out out there for consideration rather demand. And then tend to explicitly state that others will address any obvious formatting issues. Agreed that producers and directors generally don’t care about formatting (on the assumption the script meets a basic minimum proficiency in the art).
When it comes down to splitting hairs on things like asides, some people love that type of philosophical debate, which is fine by me. The solution to ensure the board doesn’t get swamped in one type of discussion is to introduce more story and character debates.
Was on YouTube yesterday, watching J Nolan on Larry King, and a question was asked... ‘what attracts you first; character or concept?’, which I thought was a great discussion starter!
On things like OWC (and maybe this is already done, as haven’t been involved in one for a long time), there can be an optional template for reviewers to tick off format, plot, story, theme, characters, tension and conflict; a sort of matrix to analyse the scripts.
However, this is one of the reasons why I have drifted from the site. As you rightly pointed out, people love to get into the nitty gritty about rules rather than, as far as I can tell, talk about story and character which is far more important and, dare I say, interesting. Script discussion boards dry up fast but a thread with "format" or "rules" in its title gets serious traffic. It's a shame really.
Of course, learning the format and discussing the rules is part of screenwriting, I just feel the attention it receives is disproportionate to its importance.
This.
I'll add that I've seen a turn on these boards (I can't speak for elsewhere) in the last couple years. That is, there's never really an actual debate anymore. The vast majority of folks (all but one or two specific people, really) essentially repeat the same things (professional writers don't follow rules, industry folks don't really care, that it's more important to focus on plot/character, that rules are important when you're starting out but flexible when you have more experience, etc.) with little to no opposition. Thread after thread, the conversation always seems to pan out the same way and usually with the exact same people.
Is this fun for anyone? Of course, I don't have to be involved, but I'm genuinely curious at this point. After so many years, I've got rules discussion fatigue way more than actual rules fatigue.
I haven't been too active of late but I hope to get back on here again more regularly.
However, this is one of the reasons why I have drifted from the site. As you rightly pointed out, people love to get into the nitty gritty about rules rather than, as far as I can tell, talk about story and character which is far more important and, dare I say, interesting. Script discussion boards dry up fast but a thread with "format" or "rules" in its title gets serious traffic. It's a shame really.
I compare it to the predominant conversation in English club soccer/football right now which is all about the pending introduction of VAR (Video Assisted Refereeing) rather than talking about the game itself. Its equally as tiresome as talking about formatting ad nauseum.
Of course, learning the format and discussing the rules is part of screenwriting, I just feel the attention it receives is disproportionate to its importance.
Anyway, apologies for my non-related-to-OWC rambling.
Concur. To me there are two types - when you see a newbie with out any clue as to format, etc - then some rules discussion is valuable.
When you get into the asides, parentheticals, orphans issues on an otherwise solid script it it a tedious and pointless discussion.
The Rules/formatting discussion fatigue is mainly going to affect seasoned screen writers who are tired of the focus being on writing 'errors' and not story, theme, characters, dialogue etc.
I'm posting feedback on a script later with lots of suggestions re formatting because the amount of simple errors is actually detracting from the read. For those starting out I think it's necessary to give some direction.
Also, one more comment regarding ditching the rules 'when we know what we're doing already'. By all means experiment , example: I loved what Dan Gilroy did with Nightcrawler, but...
I have a particular fondness for FADE IN being written at the top of a script. It signifies for me ooh, this is the start of something special - hold onto your hats!
I do not understand why people ditch that. To me it's like doing away with the info music /drum roll prior to a movie starting.
When you get into the asides, parentheticals, orphans issues on an otherwise solid script it it a tedious and pointless discussion.
Can't agree more.
Not that I'm against discussing the rules/formatting issues, they are really important, they define what makes a script a script, but... when the script is solid, is it really necessary to put so much emphasis on them? And, most importantly, is it constructive? Just thinking out loud...
If a writer hasn't bothered to learn the basics of formatting, it can be a precursor to what the story is going to be like - because they probably haven't bothered to learn about story structure, characterization, plot blah blah blah.
This.
Keep in mind that a script will have already gone through at least one set of hands before it ever reaches the producer, and those hands typically belong to a studio reader, who DOES pay attention to formatting and presentation. And more often than not, the quote above is their assumption as well, that if this writer couldn't even put forth the effort to learn proper format, they probably didn't put forth the effort to learn how to structure a story or create three dimensional characters, either. By presenting your script with bad formatting, you've already shot yourself in the very foot you're trying to get in the door.
Let us not forget that we're talking about Hollywood here, the film industry. Appearances matter. Even with screenplays. There is a standard you are expected to meet as a screenwriter. There is certainly some wiggle room, and a strong story can sometimes penetrate the bad impression that poor formatting can make, but why risk it? Just learn the damn format and stick to it.
Think of it this way: would you rather a producer tell you they turned down your script because the story didn't interest them, or that they turned down your script because the formatting was so poor that they didn't even bother reading it?
A good story might get passed over due to distractingly bad formatting, but no one is going to produce a bad story because the formatting was excellent.
Think of formatting your script as wearing a decent suit to an interview. It demonstrates a certain level of seriousness, but in the overwhelming majority of cases doing better than “decent” won’t score you any extra points.
Even if they fall in love with your feature spec script, it’s still going to get mangled into a shooting script before anything gets filmed.
Keep in mind that a script will have already gone through at least one set of hands before it ever reaches the producer, and those hands typically belong to a studio reader, who DOES pay attention to formatting and presentation. And more often than not, the quote above is their assumption as well, that if this writer couldn't even put forth the effort to learn proper format, they probably didn't put forth the effort to learn how to structure a story or create three dimensional characters, either. By presenting your script with bad formatting, you've already shot yourself in the very foot you're trying to get in the door.
Let us not forget that we're talking about Hollywood here, the film industry. Appearances matter. Even with screenplays. There is a standard you are expected to meet as a screenwriter. There is certainly some wiggle room, and a strong story can sometimes penetrate the bad impression that poor formatting can make, but why risk it? Just learn the damn format and stick to it.
Think of it this way: would you rather a producer tell you they turned down your script because the story didn't interest them, or that they turned down your script because the formatting was so poor that they didn't even bother reading it?
Lon:
I think it important to define "format" in the context of your point. Some format rules are like typos - i.e., there is an objective wrong or right. e.g., regardless of how great I think a script might be, I would point out to the writer the need to put DAY or NIGHT (or whatever - MORNING, etc) at the end of their header. etc. And I agree with you that these things ought to be clean as a whistle.
It's the soft ones that bother me - asides, parenthetical, etc that often can enhance a read that some folks will hammer on.
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The Rules - Formatting fatigue
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