Quoted from Lon It does no good at all to talk about the one guy who got away with breaking all the rules, when the overwhelming majority can't get away with it.  And again, I have to ask, in a field so packed to the gills with competition, why on earth would you risk lessening your chances by ignoring the same guidelines that everyone else is expected to follow?  Set your script apart with superior storytelling and stronger characters, because all the camera angles and wrylies in the world can't save a shit script.

But you were the one that brought up QT? I don’t think anyone has singled out a specific writer or script. I'm saying that I have seen the 'rules' broken in practically every pro script I have ever read.

Why can’t the overwhelming majority get away with it? Can you provide one once of truth to this statement?

No one said that a camera angle or wrylie could save a script, but when used effectively they can clarify or enhance a script. And in the same way no amount of rules can save a shit script.

Quoted from Demento Good formatting and "rules" won't save a shit script either. And it's not just one script, you can find a lot of examples. Two years ago there was 70 page feature that had colored paragraphs in it! The agent that discovered it and the company that bought it didn't care. That script for the babysitter had whole pages with just one sentence in all caps! Several times. I agree that people should follow screenwriting conventions, especially if you're a nobody. However, don't over-focus on that. Focus on your story, developing a concept, characters. When you reach the point to have your script read by the proper person, as long as it looks like a script, it'll be probably good enough. If you obsess about the rules, you'll follow them, then you'll feel a sense of accomplishment because you will have written a screenplay the "right way", when in fact you would have done nothing of note.

Exactly.

Quoted from Dreamscale Oh boy... Brother, back in the day, I read entire scripts with no prompting and I gave extremely detailed reviews, not just format type things, but story situations that made no sense. No one reads whole scripts anymore...OK, not NO ONE, but very, very few.  It's great when you see a review of the first 10, because that's basically all anyone is going to give these days. Do I like nudity and gore in movies?  Hell yeah, I do.  Do I appreciate movies where there is none of that?  Hell yeah, I do. I Spit on Your Grave 2 was a good flick.  It took chances.  It pushed the envelope for me. Note my reviews of other genre movies.  Rom Coms, even! Dude, I bet I've reviewed more flicks on SS than anyone else.  If you don't agree with my reviews, add it to all the "Pro Critics" reviews you don't agree with. Am I a "sophisticated man"?     Dude...I can be, when I need to be.  I'm a Kid at heart, though, and if that's a bad thing, I won't apologize.

Several people read complete feature scripts on this site. Many of them are done through p.m. I've done about 20 that way. I've only been here 8 years. I've never seen your review of a feature script. Given your time here I assume most of that was in the past or done privately. If so good on you

Quoted from Warren People keep saying this, but how do you know this is the case? Can you provide a specific example of a pro's first amateur script and then one of their later pro scripts? Or is this just something you've been told a thousand times by other amateurs that aren't actually in the industry? Or have you personally experienced this? If you can write a compelling story with great character development and arcs, and a theme that resonates with an audience then the rules you think exist aren't going to matter. I believe that correct spelling and grammar is important because there are defined rules. I don't think wrylies, orphans, or asides are important if used effectively and efficiently. I don't think you are encouraging creativity is everyone has to stick to the rules, which again don't exist. There are conversations and they are ever changing.

Spot on. Not only have I never seen a Pro script from the time that they were an amateur, I've never seen a pro state that when they were in amatuer they followed certain conventions and abandon them when they became a pro. I guess I would entertain the argument if I ever saw a shred of evidence supporting it. My intuition tells me it's just the opposite. A pro wrote a certain way when they were in the amatuer, found success, and still write that way today.

i can't keep up with responding to each post, but I can say that Lon is correct in what he's saying,, Warren is incorrect in most of what he is saying, and I'm worried that Dave has a hard on for Warren.  

OK, easy, now peeps.  I think Dave is a great writer and good peeps.  No offense sent that way.

Warren?  Well...I think he's a good writer.

Me...well...I'm me and I'm going to keep on being me, and if you disagree with what I say, that's cool.  Just don't keep shooting that foot.

Quoted from Dreamscale i can't keep up with responding to each post, but I can say that Lon is correct in what he's saying,, Warren is incorrect in most of what he is saying, and I'm worried that Dave has a hard on for Warren.   OK, easy, now peeps.  I think Dave is a great writer and good peeps.  No offense sent that way. Warren?  Well...I think he's a good writer. Me...well...I'm me and I'm going to keep on being me, and if you disagree with what I say, that's cool.  Just don't keep shooting that foot.

Well we all know you definitely can keep up, you’ve done it in the past. But in having to do that you’d have to answer some questions that I don’t think you can answer honestly without actually seeing how crazy some of your arguments are. It's a lot easier to say Lon is correct, I'm incorrect, and then have a go at Dave. Can’t really say no offence when you clearly sent one his way. Just saying no offence doesn’t cancel it out.

We all know you won’t change, that’s not an issue for anyone. My hope is only that new writers might read this and be able to make up their own mind.

In an evidence based world, I can prove that almost every pro writer breaks the rules. I can prove that no rule book exists, I can prove that amazing films have been made by writers that break all the rules. I'm still waiting for a shred of evidence from Lon about his claims about pro writers vs amateur writers. It’s all anecdotal at best.

You have also avoided practically every question regarding your qualifications to deliver these rules and how they relate to the real world of screenwriting.

I think any rational person can see from this thread what is right and wrong, so in essence the objective has been achieved

I don’t need to prove you wrong, you do that all by yourself.

Quoted from Warren It's a lot easier to say Lon is correct, I'm incorrect, and then have a go at Dave...

Well, in my defense, he only says I'm correct because I am.

Look, I'm here to share what I've learned through experience.  You guys keep mentioning exceptions.  But here's the rub -- if those exceptions were the norm, they wouldn't be called exceptions.

I'm happy to share my knowledge with those intent on learning, but otherwise, I have no interest in doing a lazy person's homework for them.  You want sources?  Do like I and many others actually serious about learning this craft do: Read a lot of scripts.  Every script you can get your hands on.  See for yourself why clean, formatted scripts are easier and less frustrating to read than others.  See how much easier it is to judge a script on its story and characters when you don't have to wade through a metric ton of intrusive details and ANGLE ONs and (while pouring coffee)s.  Visit other screenwriting sites, check out screenwriting blogs.  Plenty of pros have one, and you can find all kinds of anecdotes, many of which -- surprise, surprise! -- discuss the importance of learning format and following guidelines.

I've been through development hell more than once.  And never once have I been asked "Hey, where are all the camera directions?"  Or "Dude, why are all your descriptions so concise?"  And I promise you I have never, ever been told, "Hey, Lon, you know what this script really needs?  A shit-ton of wrylies."

For the gazillionth time, this is all about helping new writers learn the craft.  You're doing them no favors insisting that it's okay to break the rules simply because one guy out of a thousand somehow managed to sell a shitty script.

I really don't know what else there is to say, so I'll call it quits here.

Best of luck, new writers.  Keep learning, keep writing.

Quoted from Lon And I promise you I have never, ever been told, "Hey, Lon, you know what this script really needs?  A shit-ton of wrylies."

I doubt you've gotten the opposite as well. "You know, I was loving the script but there on page 97 I saw a wrylie, fifth one in the script. I was really hoping to find out how this one ends, but dammit I refuse to read this wrylie shit."

Very well put!  Thank you Lon, for driving that formatting point in clearly.

May I add that WE SEE also so many CUT TO unnecessary words that does nothing but put speed bumps into the reading. These CONTINUOUS use of wasted words IMO adds nothing. SMASH CUT this wastes and move on to telling the story.

Hurray, I got one of my pet peeves DISSOLVED off my chest!

Steve

Quoted from Lon Well, in my defense, he only says I'm correct because I am. Look, I'm here to share what I've learned through experience.  You guys keep mentioning exceptions.  But here's the rub -- if those exceptions were the norm, they wouldn't be called exceptions. I'm happy to share my knowledge with those intent on learning, but otherwise, I have no interest in doing a lazy person's homework for them.  You want sources?  Do like I and many others actually serious about learning this craft do: Read a lot of scripts.  Every script you can get your hands on.  See for yourself why clean, formatted scripts are easier and less frustrating to read than others.  See how much easier it is to judge a script on its story and characters when you don't have to wade through a metric ton of intrusive details and ANGLE ONs and (while pouring coffee)s.  Visit other screenwriting sites, check out screenwriting blogs.  Plenty of pros have one, and you can find all kinds of anecdotes, many of which -- surprise, surprise! -- discuss the importance of learning format and following guidelines. I've been through development hell more than once.  And never once have I been asked "Hey, where are all the camera directions?"  Or "Dude, why are all your descriptions so concise?"  And I promise you I have never, ever been told, "Hey, Lon, you know what this script really needs?  A shit-ton of wrylies." For the gazillionth time, this is all about helping new writers learn the craft.  You're doing them no favors insisting that it's okay to break the rules simply because one guy out of a thousand somehow managed to sell a shitty script. I really don't know what else there is to say, so I'll call it quits here. Best of luck, new writers.  Keep learning, keep writing.

Lon: All due respect, mate - really.

But the argument is really not about breaking rules. It's about what is a rule.

Proper scene headings, CAPPING character introductions, proper font and spacing, no typos are clearly things that all writers should adhere to. Amateurs and Pros should adhere to those guidelines.

When it comes to things like the effective use of wrylies, asides, unfilmables, etc we are debating if they - those things - are breaking the rules and, if so, does the disadvantage they bring outweigh the advantage.

Take our poor typo (let's use "alot" just for shits and giggles). It clearly is a typo and there clearly is no writing advantage from misspelling a word. Same would be true for several other rules/conventions - there is no upside.

Others are more subtle. Let's take the nasty unfilmable - Some are effing great - they really help the reader with tone, character description, etc. Some are there just for pure exposition and should go.

The answer invariably always becomes - you can't do these things if you want to be a pro one day despite the fact that there isn't a shred of evidence that they pros didn't do the exact same thing as amateurs, think about the logic loop that creates. Let's use wrylies.

1. Don't use wrylies if you wanted to be a Pro.

I looked at a bunch of pro scripts. They had some asides and wrylies in them. So - now what?

2. Write like an amateur until you become a pro.

But why? If pro scripts are selling than shouldn't I --

3. No - pros wrote like amateurs before they were pros. They didn't use wrylies.

How do you know? No a shred of evidence. But even if true - should I emulated the best pros now??

4. No - you should write in your own unique way - don't be a copy cat.

But my own unique way includes wrylies and --

5. Write like an amateur.

My only real grind here is my distaste for those comments that are in the nature of - you made a mistake because you:

- Used an aside
- wrylie
- unflimable
- - etc.

Because I simply believe that they are not inherently mistakes and in fact may have been the very best thing to do. Like anything, used incorrectly, they may be bad writing.

Cheers

Quoted from FrankM I doubt you've gotten the opposite as well. "You know, I was loving the script but there on page 97 I saw a wrylie, fifth one in the script. I was really hoping to find out how this one ends, but dammit I refuse to read this wrylie shit."

Exactly!

Quoted from CrackedAces Very well put!  Thank you Lon, for driving that formatting point in clearly. May I add that WE SEE also so many CUT TO unnecessary words that does nothing but put speed bumps into the reading. These CONTINUOUS use of wasted words IMO adds nothing. SMASH CUT this wastes and move on to telling the story. Hurray, I got one of my pet peeves DISSOLVED off my chest! Steve

Well written

Quoted from FrankM I doubt you've gotten the opposite as well. "You know, I was loving the script but there on page 97 I saw a wrylie, fifth one in the script. I was really hoping to find out how this one ends, but dammit I refuse to read this wrylie shit."

This is not the issue, Frank...not even close.

The issue would be 2, 3 unnecessary wrylies on Page 1, followed by more on Page 2 and Page 3.

Moderation in all things is a smart way to play.

Quoted from Dreamscale This is not the issue, Frank...not even close. The issue would be 2, 3 unnecessary wrylies on Page 1, followed by more on Page 2 and Page 3. Moderation in all things is a smart way to play.

Frank, you're right. Jeff, you're wrong. Note the use of the term unnecessary. Any Riley that is unnecessary maybe a problem as is the case with many other writing elements. The term unnecessary is key here.. you merely count them

I’m not even sure “necessary” is the right word here. That slithering mass of wrylies is not NECESSARY in the Princess script, but I think that

VIRIDIANA
So that means you two...
(AMITY and TERTIARY
CHARACTER 1)
... and you two...
(TERTIARY CHARACTER 2 and
TERTIARY CHARACTER 3)
... and you two...
(DORINDA and TERTIARY
CHARACTER 4)
... and you two.
(HOLLY and EDITH)

reads better than

VIRIDIANA
So that means you two,
and you two, and you two,
and you two.

Viridiana indicates the pairs Amity and Tertiary Character 1, Tertiary Character 2 and Tertiary Character 3, Dorinda and Tertiary Character 4, and Holly and Edith.

Even after one has a good idea of what their story is, there are a lot of judgement calls in getting it written down so people can understand it and not lose interest.

(Character names simplified for the example, hope that was obvious)