I don't want to go full on social justice warrior here, but it would be good to get more female perspective. This conversation is all guns blazing; there's been very little movement on substance, and the conversation has proven impervious to attempted humour distractions, which kind of drives home the point col was making in the first place.

Pia, you've done as well as anyone on this site - like, anyone - in terms of getting features and shorts produced; what's your experience and view?

Rather than go circular on whether something is a rule, why not branch out the discussion to talk about networking? Lon was right to highlight how some scripts will sell.

Hollywood is a pure networking game. Sydney (where I lived for a while) has a thriving shorts scene, with largley grant-based funding for features, which again drives home the essential nature of networking. London is wrapped up in the BBC & Channel 4, plus Working Title, and a couple of smaller prodcos, so again, networking is the name of the game.

The UK studios (Shepperton, Pinewood, etc) are largely outsourced location for US productions seeking tax breaks; this limits opportunities for fresh blood. I've worked on films from start to finish with budgets ranging from practically zero to £500,000 to £100,000,000+; the consistent factor for crewing up is contacts, especially the higher up the chain you go. The whole industry is built on networking, which leads to sycophancy, which leads to anger and frustration. Film sets are often unhappy places. The world of a writer trying to get in is tough. So, long story short, more focus should be given to networking, IMO; and story. Always story.

Quoted from eldave1 I'd rather be Wrylie Coyote and have Jeff be Little Orphan Angry. Can you work that in?

So you're saying a Western.

Jeff, are you in?!

Stevie, you old Aussie dog! Good to see you back! Still got the tight cutoff shorts?!

Quoted from eldave1 Frank, you're right. Jeff, you're wrong. Note the use of the term unnecessary. Any Riley that is unnecessary maybe a problem as is the case with many other writing elements. The term unnecessary is key here.. you merely count them

Dave, c'mon.  I do not "merely count them".  And if I did, what number would I say is too many?  As mentioned earlier, it's impossible to say at what point is it too many.

"unnecessary" is the word here for sure, and it doesn't only pertain to action wrylies.

Quoted from Dreamscale Dave, c'mon.  I do not "merely count them".  And if I did, what number would I say is too many?  As mentioned earlier, it's impossible to say at what point is it too many. "unnecessary" is the word here for sure, and it doesn't only pertain to action wrylies.

You do count them. Next time you object to one try being specific about the problem with a specific wrylie rather than your normal do many wrylies rant

Quoted from eldave1 You do count them. Next time you object to one try being specific about the problem with a specific wrylie rather than your normal do many wrylies rant

If there are too many, I will let it be known.

If there are VO's thrown in for no reason, other than the writer trying to completely direct the shot, I will let it be known.

If the writing is poor, I will let it be known.

Quoted from Dreamscale If there are too many, I will let it be known. If there are VO's thrown in for no reason, other than the writer trying to completely direct the shot, I will let it be known. If the writing is poor, I will let it be known.

And more than likely you will be wrong

The shorts are well and truly rocking AA!  Am going to my hometown in winter for my dads 80th with the kids. Will be wearing them shorts no matter how cold it is 👍🏻👍🏻

Quoted from eldave1 And more than likely you will be wrong

That's not very nice, Dave!

Quoted from stevie The shorts are well and truly rocking AA!  Am going to my hometown in winter for my dads 80th with the kids. Will be wearing them shorts no matter how cold it is 👍🏻👍🏻

Haha! Geniunely LOLing here, mate!

Make sure you get a pic for Jeff.

Quoted from Andrew Haha! Geniunely LOLing here, mate! Make sure you get a pic for Jeff.

Yeah!  I definitely want to see those things.

Quoted from Lon Well, in my defense, he only says I'm correct because I am.

Well you aren’t and you’ve done nothing to help your argument or prove your point.

Quoted from Lon Look, I'm here to share what I've learned through experience.  You guys keep mentioning exceptions.  But here's the rub -- if those exceptions were the norm, they wouldn't be called exceptions.

I’ve asked you to share what you’ve learnt twice now by giving examples and you are yet to show me one.

I haven’t mentioned exceptions. I’m telling you that the norm is to break all the rules you hold so dear, because those rules don’t exist. Again there are writing conventions that are ever changing.

Quoted from Lon I'm happy to share my knowledge with those intent on learning, but otherwise, I have no interest in doing a lazy person's homework for them.  You want sources?  Do like I and many others actually serious about learning this craft do: Read a lot of scripts.  Every script you can get your hands on.  See for yourself why clean, formatted scripts are easier and less frustrating to read than others.  See how much easier it is to judge a script on its story and characters when you don't have to wade through a metric ton of intrusive details and ANGLE ONs and (while pouring coffee)s.  Visit other screenwriting sites, check out screenwriting blogs.  Plenty of pros have one, and you can find all kinds of anecdotes, many of which -- surprise, surprise! -- discuss the importance of learning format and following guidelines.

I am intent on learning, and that is what I have done. I am telling you that practically every pro script I have ever read does not follow the rules, as discussed in this thread. I have not found any evidence to support your claim. I am asking not only for myself but for all the other new writers to show me evidence of the claims you are making. If you were serious about proving your point or helping new writers you would show us what you’re talking about. I'm still interested to see an example of a pro’s first script verses their later scripts. I can’t find this, so if you know just point me in the right direction.

Quoted from Lon I've been through development hell more than once.  And never once have I been asked "Hey, where are all the camera directions?"  Or "Dude, why are all your descriptions so concise?"  And I promise you I have never, ever been told, "Hey, Lon, you know what this script really needs?  A shit-ton of wrylies."

I didn’t realise you were in the industry. I don’t know your name so I can’t check your IMDb, but I'd love to read some of your work and see what films you’ve worked on.

No one has ever advocated for a shit ton of wrylies. I've also not said add a whole lot of camera direction. This is the problem with the people on the wrong side of this argument, to try and prove a no existent point you exaggerate your claims, you and Jeff have both done it more than once in this discussion. Keep on point, make your point with proof of what you’re saying. I’m more than happy to see your IMDb and see what big productions you’ve worked on so I can understand your insider knowledge.

At the moment I know you as Lon, the guy who’s made wild claims he can’t back up.

Quoted from Lon For the gazillionth time, this is all about helping new writers learn the craft.  You're doing them no favors insisting that it's okay to break the rules simply because one guy out of a thousand somehow managed to sell a shitty script.

More over-exaggeration, no one has insisted anything. I'm talking about using wrylies, asides etc. to help clarify or move your story forward. God this is like arguing with an antivaxer.

Again I have not mentioned a specific guy or script, that’s something only you keep dragging into the conversation. I'm saying that almost every pro script, great films, award winning scripts have broken the rules. Can you please send me a link to the rule book? Where do I buy it?

I'm more than happy to be proved wrong but you haven’t made one attempt to actually do that. Jeff has never sold anything, to my knowledge he’s only had one short made, 10 years ago, how has his writing benefited him? I don’t know you so I'll wait to see your list of produced films that have been made because of your excellent formatting.

To anyone - Lon will more than likely not be that forthcoming. Can any long time members point me in the direction of one of his scripts?

Oh, Warren, this is getting sad, bro.

For some odd reason, you and a few others just keep mentioning "rules".  Why?

Have you seen me say anything about this rule or that rule?  No, because all these rules you hate so much aren't even out there.

What we're trying to help writers with is what's right, what's wrong, and why.  We're talking simple formatting and how to make your script look and read great.

There are absolutely no rules that hold me back.  I'm sorry it seems like you're so affected by these rules.

So, another day, another round.

Most of you are still (pick a side) trying to convince the other side that you are right and they are wrong.

Have none of you worked out yet that you are all equally fixed in your opinions and there appears to be no swaying the other?

Another word for 'rules' is Industry Standard Formatting which we advise for Newbs getting into screenwriting.

Personally, I blame Col. Fatigue indeed.  

This is a Screenwriting Class thread presumably to educate writers on the preferred ways of screenwriting when starting out so their script is easy to read.
.
Try summing up your  learned advice, (for those starting out) not going around in circles, and then for goodness sake agree to disagree.

Quoted from Dreamscale Oh, Warren, this is getting sad, bro. For some odd reason, you and a few others just keep mentioning "rules".  Why? Have you seen me say anything about this rule or that rule?  No, because all these rules you hate so much aren't even out there. What we're trying to help writers with is what's right, what's wrong, and why.  We're talking simple formatting and how to make your script look and read great. There are absolutely no rules that hold me back.  I'm sorry it seems like you're so affected by these rules.

I'm feeling pretty good, no skin off my back. I stand by and can support every argument I’ve put forward. The only reason I am persisting with this conversation, and have been since yesterday, is for the sheer comedic value. For every legitimate point made you give me another brilliant nugget of wisdom.

Again, changing the argument to suit your needs, and still not a shred of evidence to prove your point. Jeff, what have you achieved in the industry to show your methodology works? Other than the legendary script that you didn’t want to sell to the Chinese? Can you or Lon actually take the time to address the very valid points Dave and I have made?

How do you know what is right? What are your credentials? I can tell you that the pros are working outside of the formatting guidelines you’re trying to uphold. Not a singled out pro, all of them. And if we are going to go back to the “but they’re pros they can do what they want” argument, there are still many points that haven’t been addressed with regards to that earlier in the thread.

I realise no rules hold you back, you aren’t even bound by the rules of the English language. How can you argue with a trailblazer like that?

Really, anyone? I'd like to see you all sum up your advice.

And stop beating a dead horse.