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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Screenwriting Discussion    Screenwriting Class  ›  The Rules - Formatting fatigue Moderators: George Willson
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  Author    The Rules - Formatting fatigue  (currently 9455 views)
Warren
Posted: March 28th, 2019, 5:10pm Report to Moderator
Of The Ancients


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Quoted from LC
So, another day, another round.

Most of you are still (pick a side) trying to convince the other side that you are right and they are wrong.

Have none of you worked out yet that you are all equally fixed in your opinions and there appears to be no swaying the other?

Another word for 'rules' is Industry Standard Formatting which we advise for Newbs getting into screenwriting.

Personally, I blame Col. Fatigue indeed.  

This is a Screenwriting Class thread presumably to educate writers on the preferred ways of screenwriting when starting out so their script is easy to read.
.
Try summing up your  learned advice, (for those starting out) not going around in circles, and then for goodness sake agree to disagree.


This goes further than standard formatting, I don’t think anyone has argued that there aren’t formatting conventions.

I've summed up my learned advice several times. That is that pro scripts will bend and break conventions if it adds to the sorry, clarifies something, or enhances readability. I’ve never said don’t follow the conventions, I’ve said they are always changing and definitely can be broken.


Quoted Text
then for goodness sake agree to disagree.


Never!!!!

If they had a shred of evidence or insider knowledge to support their claims, then sure. Until that point they are just plain wrong, simple as that




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Warren
Posted: March 28th, 2019, 5:15pm Report to Moderator
Of The Ancients


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Quoted from LC
Really, anyone? I'd like to see you all sum up your advice.

And stop beating a dead horse.


Again, this side has summed up its advice several times. Yet to hear from the other side.

Is it harming anyone by beating a dead horse? It hasn’t turned into outright abuse or name calling, well at least none that I’ve typed out   It’s just been strong, passionate debate. Is that not allowed? If people are over it they don’t need to click on, add to, or read the thread.


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ghost and_ghostie gal
Posted: March 28th, 2019, 5:37pm Report to Moderator
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WCMartell:

I think there is something larger at work, here - using all of those things that are "against the rules" well or poorly. And that comes down to using them "correctly", and I think that comes down to ignoring both the arbitrary "don't do this" and the arbitrary "the rules don't matter" and realizing that what matters is knowing how to use them.

My thing has always been "tools not rules" - that things like "we see" or using some camera angle in your script isn't going to get you kicked out of Hollywood. But you are using these things *for a reason* and not just willy-nilly. You are using the best tool for the job. When you pick up a sledgehammer to pound in a finishing nail, the advice you are going to get is "Never use the sledgehammer!" Because the advice is specific to the case. And when you get general advice, you may get "Never use the sledgehammer" because it is a tool that is rarely used in construction. But there may come a time when you need to pound a beam in, and the sledgehammer is the perfect tool. So you bring it out.

I think the whole "rules" thing is really about using the right tool for the job, and that means knowing how each tool works. Neither "the rules don't matter" or "you must follow the rules" are the solution because neither addresses how the tools work. It's not that a pro can get away with using "we see" (or whatever), it's that a pro knows how and when to use those things. And anyone can mis-judge and mis-use a tool - but when a pro does it it is a small "mistake" in a work with few mistakes; when a new writer mis-uses a tool, it may be a small "mistake" in a work filled with "mistakes". Those other "mistakes" may be character we do not care about or a scatter-shot story or many other issues that make that small "mistake" seem like the last straw."

Don't look at the "rules", look at the reasons behind them. That's what matters.


I'm just a middle-of-the-road screenwriter- ie: not new but not yet getting paid at pro level.   But I'm pretty darn sure If people use them correctly, they can get away with it, too.

So when a pro breaks the rules, it's not because they're pros (Lon) it's because they think it gives the best read on the page.  To assume otherwise is unfounded and counterintuitive - yes, they are professional screenwriters.  They committed to it, they beat the odds and made it, and it's their life.  It's like some guy, or guys sitting at home and watching pro baseball players and chuckling about their lack of fundamentals.   It's ignorant and obnoxious.  



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ghost and_ghostie gal  -  March 28th, 2019, 5:56pm
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Zack
Posted: March 28th, 2019, 6:09pm Report to Moderator
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It's like some guy, or guys sitting at home and watching pro baseball players and chuckling about their lack of fundamentals.   It's ignorant and obnoxious.  


On the flipside of the coin, wouldn't it be ignorant and obnoxious to tell aspiring young baseball players that the fundamentals don't matter?
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Dreamscale
Posted: March 28th, 2019, 6:23pm Report to Moderator
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Warren, Warren, Warren...man oh man.  I'm not going to keep quoting you, because it does now good, but I will respond...again.

It's not me moving the topics to what I want to discuss and ignoring what's being said, or not providing requested information....it's you, Brother!  You!

You asked me what qualifications I had to divvy out advice, and I responded in detail.  You immediately said that's all fine and dandy but it means absolutely nothing.  And you continue to ask and make fun of what I told you, which ain't cool, period.

But, now you seem to have this new topic about who is and who isn't qualified to give advice and try to help peeps.

Because I haven't sold a feature script for significant money and/or notoriety, I'm not qualified to help peeps who have no idea what they are and what they're not doing?

Is a guy or gal who sells a script for $25,000 that gets turned into an absolutely horrible, dumbass DTV movie more qualified?  Because he sold a "crappy script" somehow?

I'll just say it again, there's right and there's wrong, and then there's damn grey areas.

I don't care who write the script...I give feedback, good or bad, based on what's on the pages.  No one should ever throw out as a reason for anything, "Well, they're a Pro writer, if they did it, there's obviously nothing wrong with it."

That's BS, my brother.  Flat out BS, and you need to at least consider what I'm saying, because I really don't see how you could argue that.
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Warren
Posted: March 28th, 2019, 6:24pm Report to Moderator
Of The Ancients


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WCMartell:

I think there is something larger at work, here - using all of those things that are "against the rules" well or poorly. And that comes down to using them "correctly", and I think that comes down to ignoring both the arbitrary "don't do this" and the arbitrary "the rules don't matter" and realizing that what matters is knowing how to use them.

My thing has always been "tools not rules" - that things like "we see" or using some camera angle in your script isn't going to get you kicked out of Hollywood. But you are using these things *for a reason* and not just willy-nilly. You are using the best tool for the job. When you pick up a sledgehammer to pound in a finishing nail, the advice you are going to get is "Never use the sledgehammer!" Because the advice is specific to the case. And when you get general advice, you may get "Never use the sledgehammer" because it is a tool that is rarely used in construction. But there may come a time when you need to pound a beam in, and the sledgehammer is the perfect tool. So you bring it out.

I think the whole "rules" thing is really about using the right tool for the job, and that means knowing how each tool works. Neither "the rules don't matter" or "you must follow the rules" are the solution because neither addresses how the tools work. It's not that a pro can get away with using "we see" (or whatever), it's that a pro knows how and when to use those things. And anyone can mis-judge and mis-use a tool - but when a pro does it it is a small "mistake" in a work with few mistakes; when a new writer mis-uses a tool, it may be a small "mistake" in a work filled with "mistakes". Those other "mistakes" may be character we do not care about or a scatter-shot story or many other issues that make that small "mistake" seem like the last straw."

Don't look at the "rules", look at the reasons behind them. That's what matters.


I'm just a middle-of-the-road screenwriter- ie: not new but not yet getting paid at pro level.   But I'm pretty darn sure If people use them correctly, they can get away with it, too.

So when a pro breaks the rules, it's not because they're pros (Lon) it's because they think it gives the best read on the page.  To assume otherwise is unfounded and counterintuitive - yes, they are professional screenwriters.  They committed to it, they beat the odds and made it, and it's their life.  It's like some guy, or guys sitting at home and watching pro baseball players and chuckling about their lack of fundamentals.   It's ignorant and obnoxious.  


I agree with this.

I think the issue is that Jeff has decided that he is the authority on when too much is too much, but he has no proof or credientals to back his claims. I've never said he can't have an opinion on the matter, he could say something like; I feel you have too many whatever and this is the reason and this is how it could be done better. That's not what he does. For one of my scripts he literally went and counted the wrylies, voice overs, and off screens and told me there were too many. In my opinion every single one was needed and every single one was well/correctly used. I have seen them all used in pro scripts in similar ways, and personally I would prefer to emulate a pro than an amateur.

No one is saying that you should throw everything you know about writing out the window. There are very well know and established conventions, we all know that.

The argument is that they can be broken, and they can be broken by amateurs to enhance your storytelling.



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Warren  -  March 28th, 2019, 7:09pm
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Dreamscale
Posted: March 28th, 2019, 6:26pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Zack
On the flipside of the coin, wouldn't it be ignorant and obnoxious to tell aspiring young baseball players that the fundamentals don't matter?


Exactly.

And also, to a point someone else brought up, is there really something wrong with sports fans sitting at home criticizing a Pro athlete?  Hell, no, there's not.

It's just like writing, there's goods, there's bads, and there's just OKs, and Pros in every facet of life not only make mistakes, they sometimes go flat out wrong.

Nature of all us beasts!

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Warren
Posted: March 28th, 2019, 6:39pm Report to Moderator
Of The Ancients


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Quoted from Dreamscale
Warren, Warren, Warren...man oh man.  I'm not going to keep quoting you, because it does now good, but I will respond...again.

It's not me moving the topics to what I want to discuss and ignoring what's being said, or not providing requested information....it's you, Brother!  You!

You asked me what qualifications I had to divvy out advice, and I responded in detail.  You immediately said that's all fine and dandy but it means absolutely nothing.  

But, now you seem to have this new topic about who is and who isn't qualified to give advice and try to help peeps.

Because I haven't sold a feature script for significant money and/or notoriety, I'm not qualified to help peeps who have no idea what they are and what they're not doing?

Is a guy or gal who sells a script for $25,000 that gets turned into an absolutely horrible, dumbass DTV movie more qualified?  Because he sold a "crappy script" somehow?

I'll just say it again, there's right and there's wrong, and then there's damn grey areas.

I don't care who write the script...I give feedback, good or bad, based on what's on the pages.  No one should ever throw out as a reason for anything, "Well, they're a Pro writer, if they did it, there's obviously nothing wrong with it."

That's BS, my brother.  Flat out BS, and you need to at least consider what I'm saying, because I really don't see how you could argue that.


The issue is that you have decided to be the authority on the grey issues. This was about those grey areas, wrylies, asides, camera angles, voice overs, orphans.

I have addressed every point you have made, or tried to, if I’ve missed anything feel free to point it out and I will address it. Still waiting for a whole lot of info from your side that I know isn’t coming.

I think I might tap out here, we will both hold firm on our ideas.

Like I said, any rational person will be able to read this thread and be able to make up their own mind.

You can keep on keeping on. Your advice on the grey areas will still be largely ignored.

I liked this one:


Quoted Text
And you continue to ask and make fun of what I told you, which ain't cool, period.


What you have told me is nothing tangible, it’s nothing we can see, nothing we can truly know. All we have to go by are your pissers and excuse laden OWC scripts. If you’re feeling bad about your achievements in the screenwriting community that’s all you. I'm just pointing out the facts. No fun has been made.

I'm out, continue





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Dreamscale
Posted: March 28th, 2019, 6:55pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Warren
Like I said, any rational person will be able to read this thread and be able to make up their own mind.

You can keep on keeping on. Your advice on the grey areas will still be largely ignored.

What you have told me is nothing tangible, it’s nothing we can see, nothing we can truly know. All we have to go by are your pissers and excuse laden OWC scripts. If you’re feeling bad about your achievements in the screenwriting community that’s all you. I'm just pointing out the facts. No fun has been made.

I'm out, continue


Well, there you go again, and I agree that most rational peeps will read this and make up their mind, but you really shouldn't be so confident that the masses will be siding with you and your smug smartass tude.

I have no bad feelings about my achievements and/or lack of achievements.  This is a hobby for me, but I am passionate about it, as SS has taught me so much and provided so many great times.

Again, you ignored the things I brought up about why someone should be eligible to give feedback and try and help peeps out, if they don't have any industry successes.

I've said this for many years on such threads and I'll say it again here.

Just because someone sold a script or 3, has nothing to do with their talent as a screenwriter.  And when that 1st Sale was official, that writer was absolutely no better a writer than he was the day before it sold.  Absolutely no different.

I know you said you're out, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, as I think it's quite important.

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Grandma Bear
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203 comments!!!!!!!!!!!!!  


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Warren
Posted: March 28th, 2019, 10:09pm Report to Moderator
Of The Ancients


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204 comments  


Quoted from Dreamscale
Well, there you go again, and I agree that most rational peeps will read this and make up their mind, but you really shouldn't be so confident that the masses will be siding with you and your smug smartass tude.

I have no bad feelings about my achievements and/or lack of achievements.  This is a hobby for me, but I am passionate about it, as SS has taught me so much and provided so many great times.

Again, you ignored the things I brought up about why someone should be eligible to give feedback and try and help peeps out, if they don't have any industry successes.


Okay, last one.

Anyone is eligible to give feedback, anyone at all. Even if they know nothing about screenwriting they can still have an opinion on the story.

I’ve never directly said you aren’t eligible. The point I have continually hammered on about is that by all the evidence, like great scripts written by great writers, show us a different picture to the one you’re painting. I’m talking about pro writers whose scripts have been turned into good or great films. I’m talking about writers that I look up to and want to emulate.

You and Lon keep mentioning crap writers, I’ve never told anyone to look up to a crap writer or to take advice from a crap writer. I’m saying look to writers who have made films you like, read their stuff, they will have undoubtedly done things you (Jeff) believe are incorrect.

The issue is not that you aren’t eligible to give feedback because you haven’t had any success, it’s that you have hard-line opinions on what makes a good script, and those hard-line opinions can be disproved by reading good pro scripts. To say that they didn’t write that way when they were amateurs is an unfounded claim.

I’ve pointed out that I've had no real success either, but I base what I know about the craft, in terms of what this discussion is about, on ideas and scripts that have been written by writers that have found success.



Quoted from Dreamscale
I've said this for many years on such threads and I'll say it again here.

Just because someone sold a script or 3, has nothing to do with their talent as a screenwriter.  And when that 1st Sale was official, that writer was absolutely no better a writer than he was the day before it sold.  Absolutely no different.


I haven’t disputed this. A crap writer is a crap writer.

Now I’m really done. It’s been fun.




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Warren  -  March 28th, 2019, 10:24pm
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eldave1
Posted: March 28th, 2019, 10:53pm Report to Moderator
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WCMartell:

I think there is something larger at work, here - using all of those things that are "against the rules" well or poorly. And that comes down to using them "correctly", and I think that comes down to ignoring both the arbitrary "don't do this" and the arbitrary "the rules don't matter" and realizing that what matters is knowing how to use them.

My thing has always been "tools not rules" - that things like "we see" or using some camera angle in your script isn't going to get you kicked out of Hollywood. But you are using these things *for a reason* and not just willy-nilly. You are using the best tool for the job. When you pick up a sledgehammer to pound in a finishing nail, the advice you are going to get is "Never use the sledgehammer!" Because the advice is specific to the case. And when you get general advice, you may get "Never use the sledgehammer" because it is a tool that is rarely used in construction. But there may come a time when you need to pound a beam in, and the sledgehammer is the perfect tool. So you bring it out.

I think the whole "rules" thing is really about using the right tool for the job, and that means knowing how each tool works. Neither "the rules don't matter" or "you must follow the rules" are the solution because neither addresses how the tools work. It's not that a pro can get away with using "we see" (or whatever), it's that a pro knows how and when to use those things. And anyone can mis-judge and mis-use a tool - but when a pro does it it is a small "mistake" in a work with few mistakes; when a new writer mis-uses a tool, it may be a small "mistake" in a work filled with "mistakes". Those other "mistakes" may be character we do not care about or a scatter-shot story or many other issues that make that small "mistake" seem like the last straw."

Don't look at the "rules", look at the reasons behind them. That's what matters.


I'm just a middle-of-the-road screenwriter- ie: not new but not yet getting paid at pro level.   But I'm pretty darn sure If people use them correctly, they can get away with it, too.

So when a pro breaks the rules, it's not because they're pros (Lon) it's because they think it gives the best read on the page.  To assume otherwise is unfounded and counterintuitive - yes, they are professional screenwriters.  They committed to it, they beat the odds and made it, and it's their life.  It's like some guy, or guys sitting at home and watching pro baseball players and chuckling about their lack of fundamentals.   It's ignorant and obnoxious.  


Nice post. Makes a lot of sense


My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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eldave1
Posted: March 29th, 2019, 4:00pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale


I've said this for many years on such threads and I'll say it again here.

Just because someone sold a script or 3, has nothing to do with their talent as a screenwriter.  And when that 1st Sale was official, that writer was absolutely no better a writer than he was the day before it sold.  Absolutely no different.



So...

When someone claims that a pro writes with the use of wrylies,  asides, etc - they are not doing so simply because they can get away with it - they probably always did it. Yes?


My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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Nomad
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Did this post about how people focus too much on format and not enough on story turn into a post focused too much on format and not enough on story?

I say be the change we want to see.  

There are a ton of poorly formatted scripts just waiting for us to read.  Don posts them all the time.

Crack one open, note the formatting issues, but focus on the intangibles:  Story, characters, plot, theme, feeling...

I love seeing that a newly posted script has no comments.  It's a blank canvas.  The writer is obviously new and malleable.  They're primed for growth and all it takes is a few words of encouragement to get them to the Oscars where they will spend their entire acceptance speech thanking me which will totally piss off their wife/husband/mother/agent/studio head... But that's not my fault.  I can't help how awesome I am.

-Jordan


Read my scripts here:
SOCIAL EXPERIMENT 8pg-Drama
THE BRIDGE 8pg-Horror
SCHEISSE 6pg-Horror/Comedy
MADE FOR EACH OTHER-FILMED
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eldave1
Posted: March 29th, 2019, 7:44pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from LC
Really, anyone? I'd like to see you all sum up your advice.

And stop beating a dead horse.


I think this is a good idea, Libby.

1. I think there needs to be a different thread for each distinct topic (we could build an inventory of issues as we go).

2. Someone should write the main article. Then someone should be allowed to imbed the counter view  (if there is one) withing that main article. Then that specific post would be locked - but peeps would be allowed to make comments on the thread.

I'll start by posting one on parentheticals. Jeff, Lon, or anyone for that matter could volunteer to write the counter view (if there is one).

Jeff - if you are still reading this thread, you could write one on Scene Headings. You're killer in that area.


My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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