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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Unproduced Screenplay Discussion    Short Scripts  ›  Rid of Guilt (alternative version) Moderators: bert
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  Author    Rid of Guilt (alternative version)  (currently 6176 views)
Don
Posted: April 9th, 2013, 2:50pm Report to Moderator
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Rid of Guilt by Howard Jenson (ColKurtz - Short, Drama -  One man's attempt to lift his burden. (12 pages) - pdf, format


Alternative to: http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?m-1229379318/


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Colkurtz8
Posted: April 9th, 2013, 5:21pm Report to Moderator
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As ever, a big thanks to Don for posting this so quickly and generously adding the link to the original version, much appreciated.


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Forgive
Posted: April 9th, 2013, 6:10pm Report to Moderator
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Hi Col (didn't realize your name was Howard).

This was an interesting piece, even if it has been done before (by yourself, though I haven't read the first one).

By p.7, the game was up for me, even though others might have seen it sooner, so I was wondering if there was going to be anything added that was going to be a new twist on things - and I can see how you've played with things somewhat to achieve that. The end was very chop-and-change, and I'm not sure how that would pan out on film as it could come across as very confusing, but I think it complemented the script well, as things had a real feeling of speeding up after a slow (in a thoughtful way) start.

I did kind of wonder how Patrick would have known that Daniel was an Actuary -- or was that being put down to co-incidence? It didn't feel like it was written to co-incidence that Patrick was drawing Daniel's attention to Linda for his own guilt's sake, but in some distant hope that a replacement father & husband would be found, so it felt  little too 'cosy'.

Overall, I though that it was a well woven tale - IMO a couple of 'the's' could have been replaced with 'a's, but that aside it was well written and, I thought, well paced as I'm guessing you deliberately rammed things  together more toward the final section.

Simon
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trickyb
Posted: April 9th, 2013, 6:21pm Report to Moderator
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Wow, very well written, didn't quite know what was happening at first as it started a little slow, but I'm glad I read on, great little story.

SPOILER

For a moment you had me thinking he would screw up and Daniel was gunna be the one to fall.

Thanks for posting

Michael


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LC
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I second the 'wow' factor on this one.

You really seem to have mastered the non-linear, time shifting elements in your story telling, as you've done with that other one   of which I'll be replying to your reply shortly.

I did a quick scan of the original (which I hadn't prev. read) and this current version is a vast improvement - too much exposition and a little wordy the first imh.

Nothing really to nitpick on this, so I won't. Great natural dialogue and well thought out images, and a complete story, to the point I could see this effortlessly playing out in my head while I read. Would need a deft hand at filming so I hope you find someone to do it justice.

A really touching (gulp) and well told story.
Terrific all round.


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Colkurtz8
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Simon

Thanks for the read and comments, man.


Quoted from Forgive

I did kind of wonder how Patrick would have known that Daniel was an Actuary -- or was that being put down to co-incidence?


- He doesn’t know that he is an actuary, he only knows what the profession entails. This is because the guy he killed was also in the same trade, if you will. A big coincidence for sure but I included more as a tie in to later on when Patrick asks about his odds of surviving.


Quoted from Forgive

It didn't feel like it was written to co-incidence that Patrick was drawing Daniel's attention to Linda for his own guilt's sake, but in some distant hope that a replacement father & husband would be found, so it felt  little too 'cosy'.


- No, that wasn’t my intention. The reason behind Patrick offloading on Daniel like that and using the ole “I knew this guy who…”to supplant himself is Patrick’s way of talking through the last moments, to confide to a complete stranger with the safety guise of replacing some guy with himself and gauging the reaction. If you notice during his confession the night before on the dictaphone he asks himself the question “ Is five years not enough...? Of course not.” yet says to Daniel “Five years...! That’s not justice, is it?” as if looking for vindication, a confirmation. His own guilt is too much anyway, he’s past the point of no return and this charade is just that, a charade, before he makes the leap.

Thanks again for the read, Simon.


Trickyb

Thanks for the taking the time, glad it worked for you.


Quoted from trickyb

For a moment you had me thinking he would screw up and Daniel was gunna be the one to fall.


- No, it was always going to be Patrick. Funny you thought that, it never occurred to me before and no one has ever said it but it could an interesting place to take it.

Alternative version to the Alternative version coming soon! To clog a script forum near you!

Cheers.


Libby

Thanks you for the kind remarks, glad you liked it.


Quoted from Libby

You really seem to have mastered the non-linear, time shifting elements in your story telling, as you've done with that other one of which I'll be replying to your reply shortly.


- It’s funny, I don’t play around with timelines that much yet you’ve read two from me so you must be thinking it’s my shtick. I do like to tell parallel situations though that link up ever so dramatically! There, that can be my shtick.


Quoted from Libby

I did a quick scan of the original (which I hadn't prev. read) and this current version is a vast improvement - too much exposition and a little wordy the first imh.


- The original was a little flat and straightforward but worked alright as a single location/two character (bar some extras) piece, I reckon. This is why I took a new approach with it, although it has been sitting around for awhile.


Quoted from Libby
Would need a deft hand at filming so I hope you find someone to do it justice..


- Yeah, I think it could be tricky to film, not so much the intertwining timelines but more the scene where Patrick jumps, which is inherent from the original version. To execute that effectively without it looking fake or hammy would make or break its success. I would just want to convey that Daniel has a grip on Patrick but loses it (to tie in to Patrick’s earlier jibe out his soft hands) and hopefully some clever editing will sort out the rest.

Thanks again for taking the time and no rush with the other reply.

Col.


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Reef Dreamer
Posted: April 10th, 2013, 7:53am Report to Moderator
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Hey Col, had a quick read, not much in the way of notes. I haven't  read the original so can't compare.

A well written, grim tale that I felt wasn't meant to be a great surprise, more of a case why will he do it, and how, followed by the what happens next.

Like others I enjoy the non linear scripts and they take some work to flow. Once or twice you lost me at the end when you flick forwards into the future, after the 'event', but in general I followed it quite easily.

I think you made the most out of Daniel, a comparision with the lost father, but I suppose he is a weak link being used for exposition and reaction. I just wondered whether you could have him introduced earlier in the scene say in the car park or ticket office, where Patrick over hears he is an actuary and changes course because of it. We then are curious as to why, they dont seem linked. At present it comes across as Patrick wants a chat before jumping, almost a little chirpy for someone on the road to death.

Finally, I like the idea of choice in scripts. What other choices could he have had? Speak to Linda ? Allow her choose the options, probably not. Maybe as the train arrives the choices could be clearer, Daniel expressing the obvious that seeing a sucide is hardly going to help the son - what will he do when a flaw is exposed in his plan?

Otherwise, sound work and an enjoyable read.


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Electric Dreamer
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You're actually a Howard or that "G" name I've been using?
I'm confused. And potentially embarrassed.

E.D.


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DustinBowcot
Posted: April 10th, 2013, 12:38pm Report to Moderator
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NOTES ON RID OF GUILT

Page 2

He focuses his attention on Daniel momentarily before
staring straight ahead, inhales deeply.


No need for 'his attention' in the above sentence.


Page 3

PATRICK
Public transport, huh? Fuckin’
despise it. I used to drive
myself...till the car gave out.


The above dialogue is slightly off. You either need a comma. I used to drive, myself... or get rid of 'myself' altogether. Sorry about pointing that out, I just had to read it twice to get it.


Daniel affords him a phony, humouring smile. He looks away,
smile fades, eyebrows rise.



I know what you're conveying in the above sentence I just feel that instead of 'eyebrows rise' that you should use 'eyes roll' instead... but it's up to you. I got it, after all.


Very nicely done. I like the VO aspect and the way you have intermingled the scenes that, to me, work fine without flashback tags. I think something worth milking more may be the fact that Daniel is also an actuary... so by not being specific right away as to the crime the original actuary did the viewer may get the impression that Daniel is the wrong doer about to have justice served upon him. Then flip it to the suicide which is given away once you mention the car accident... as Daniel isn't affected at all by that. I enjoyed reading this, thanks for putting it up.
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KevinLenihan
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Like Brett, I was worried about the G vs H thing a couple weeks ago. But I decided to leave it alone, as long as I had the right guy! For a couple of days I was worried I had got two people mixed up.

Glad you posted this, Colonel! Solid work.
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Colkurtz8
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Bill

Thanks for read an comments.


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
A well written, grim tale that I felt wasn't meant to be a great surprise, more of a case why will he do it, and how, followed by the what happens next.


- Yeah, It was more about the process than the final act. A savvy reader will sense where this is ultimately going prior to when it happens on the page.


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
I think you made the most out of Daniel, a comparision with the lost father, but I suppose he is a weak link being used for exposition and reaction.


- Yeah, for sure. He was Patrick's confidant in his last minutes, a person through which he essentially talks himself through the deed and as you say; it worked conveniently on an exposition level. I tried to give Daniel some character of his own, not to just be a blank canvas for Patrick to relay back-story. This is isn’t done through dialogue but more appearance and life trajectory, he is the complete antithesis of Patrick, someone at the other end of the spectrum in every possible way.


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
I just wondered whether you could have him introduced earlier in the scene say in the car park or ticket office, where Patrick over hears he is an actuary and changes course because of it.


- Interesting suggestion although it would be very hard to include this nugget of specific information without it sounding clunky and unnatural.


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
We then are curious as to why, they dont seem linked. At present it comes across as Patrick wants a chat before jumping, almost a little chirpy for someone on the road to death.


- I sometimes got this criticism in the original draft and my answer was always the same, see above. It’s a wholly cruel and inconsiderate act by Patrick to include Daniel in his swansong, which in itself is an even more cruel and selfish call for attention but this is a man whose given up hope, his state of mind is unstable, to say the least, he’s convinced himself he’s doing the honourable thing


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
Finally, I like the idea of choice in scripts. What other choices could he have had? Speak to Linda ? Allow her choose the options, probably not. Maybe as the train arrives the choices could be clearer, Daniel expressing the obvious that seeing a sucide is hardly going to help the son - what will he do when a flaw is exposed in his plan?.


- Great point, it could be written to go in a few different directions, all of them more positive and life affirming then the one I chose. I'm just a miserable basta?d.


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
Otherwise, sound work and an enjoyable read.


Thanks for taking the time to check it out, Bill. Cheers.


Dustin

Daniel
Thanks for taking the time, man.

Quoted from DustinBowcot

Page 3

PATRICK
Public transport, huh? Fuckin’
despise it. I used to drive
myself...till the car gave out.

The above dialogue is slightly off. You either need a comma. I used to drive, myself... or get rid of 'myself' altogether. Sorry about pointing that out, I just had to read it twice to get it.


- I think it might be a vernacular thing. Where I'm from we would phrase it like that "I used to drive myself" I get what you're are saying though and no need to apologise, thanks for making me aware of it.


Quoted from DustinBowcot
Very nicely done. I like the VO aspect and the way you have intermingled the scenes that, to me, work fine without flashback tags. I think something worth milking more may be the fact that Daniel is also an actuary... so by not being specific right away as to the crime the original actuary did the viewer may get the impression that Daniel is the wrong doer about to have justice served upon him. Then flip it to the suicide which is given away once you mention the car accident... as Daniel isn't affected at all by that. I enjoyed reading this, thanks for putting it up.


- Good suggestion, I wonder is there enough jiggery pokery going on with the story to add a red herring. It’s not really how I  want the audience to be thinking, it s more about Patrick's final journey and this would take the emphasis away from that on something that  is ultimately misleading. It's still in intriguing idea though if I were to take a different approach.

Thanks again for the read.

Simon/Brett/Kevin/anybody who‘s bothered

Howard Jensen is a pen name I use, inspired by the characters “Howard Beale” and “Arthur Jensen” from my second favourite film of all time, “Network”.

Sorry for any confusion caused, I’m a self conscious, pretentious wank.

Oh and to everybody who has taken the time to look at this, feel free to point me in the direction of one of yours on the boards or otherwise.


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DustinBowcot
Posted: April 15th, 2013, 4:58am Report to Moderator
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Yeah, we say that too. I'm from Birmingham. What I mean is more to do with correct punctuation. I used to drive myself... is only really half a sentence... yet if you place a comma: I used to drive, myself... then that makes it read how you want it to.

Just a little thing, but with a comma then anybody will recognise that it is vernacular. Without it it looks like you've missed something off the end of the sentence.
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ghost and_ghostie gal
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Hey, Col,

Hope you get more reads, you deserve it.  I remember reading the original back than,  and my thoughts...  this was a joy to read, despite the sad tale.  The build-up was outstanding.  I thought it was a bit off when Patrick mentioned he killed her husband (in the original version)... in the grand scheme of things, did it work, absolutely, but I'm glad to see you took that out...  to me, it works better.

Why you decided to do an alternate, I don't know, but to be honest, the original was pretty darn good as it was... JMHO.   Dialogue, storeytelling was great.  Really, nobody can fault this... it's a great script, wouldn't take much money to film this.

Good Luck, Col

Ghostie


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rc1107
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Hey Col.  :-)  I'll just always call you Col. now just in case.


Quoted from LC
You really seem to have mastered the non-linear, time shifting elements in your story telling, as you've done with that other one   of which I'll be replying to your reply shortly.


I second this big time!  Hmm.  I wonder if Libby's talking about the one I just read a couple weeks ago?  Have you submitted 'Leave in the Past' to SS yet?  I'd love to see other people's thoughts on that one.

Anyway, great job regarding this one.  As always, you know what kind of stories I love and gravitate to and all of them I've read lately have been awesome in my opinion.

I really don't have anything negative to bring to the table on this one at all.  I loved the disjointed timelines and how they all came together, and I think it would work magnificent in film.  But, as brought up before, you'll need a more-than-competent director to pull it off.

I will say that having Daniel an actuary does raise a couple red flags in the story, though.  It made it sound like Patrick somehow brought Daniel in to meet Linda to take her husband's place.  Of course, at the end it's clear that's not the case, but the story could do without that coincidence to throw us off track.

I haven't read the original, (at least I don't think I did.  I should probably go check the thread before I say anything), but if I haven't, I'll give that a read, and I'm curious as to the next re-make you have in store for this one.

Great read, Col.

- Mark


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Colkurtz8
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Dustin


Quoted from DustinBowcot
Yeah, we say that too. I'm from Birmingham. What I mean is more to do with correct punctuation. I used to drive myself... is only really half a sentence... yet if you place a comma: I used to drive, myself... then that makes it read how you want it to.

Just a little thing, but with a comma then anybody will recognise that it is vernacular. Without it it looks like you've missed something off the end of the sentence.


- Really. I always use ellipses (…) to break up dialogue when signifying a pause in the character’s delivery, and in the prose for certain sequences of actions. Your correct in saying that "I used to drive myself" is only half a sentence, I meant for "till the car gave out" to be the remainder of it. Personally, I don't see the need for a comma before "myself".

Thanks for bringing it to my attention.


Ghostwriter

Thanks for the read and the kind remarks.

A writer friend of mine suggested expanding it. We both agreed that while the original draft worked well as a single location/few characters piece it was essentially straightforward, talking head-ish and full of exposition, innate to those types of scripts.

It was a matter of lengthening the timeline of events back to the night before and earlier that morning to provide some room for context and build-up while maintaining Patrick as the principal character. I pretty much revolved the story around the Dictaphone reveal, it’s a bit gimmicky I’ll admit but gives the story that extra dimension I hope, without that all this build-up would be unnecessary.

Thanks again for taking the time, point me in the direction of anything you want read.


Mark

Thanks for the read, man, glad you liked it.


Quoted from rc1107

I second this big time!  Hmm.  I wonder if Libby's talking about the one I just read a couple weeks ago?  Have you submitted 'Leave in the Past' to SS yet?  I'd love to see other people's thoughts on that one.


- Yeah same one, Libby generously provided excellent notes on it too. I haven't posted it yet, might do some time down the line.


Quoted from rc1107

I will say that having Daniel an actuary does raise a couple red flags in the story, though.  It made it sound like Patrick somehow brought Daniel in to meet Linda to take her husband's place.  Of course, at the end it's clear that's not the case, but the story could do without that coincidence to throw us off track.


- You're not the first to think that Patrick was grooming Daniel to be a surrogate father/husband, which is interesting as it was never my intention but I can totally see where you’re coming from. Yeah, I did take a leap of faith with that contrivance but hoped it was justified or paid off to some degree by Patrick asking Daniel his odds of survival as the train approaches. As I said here and on the original draft's forum too I think (although I don't remember getting much comments about this particular point), I included it in order to allow that line which I hoped would work as an unsettling tie in to the earlier reveal of the coincidence. Instead of having Daniel just explain the profession to Patrick (and us) Patrick cuts him off, already knows about it but doesn't elaborate on the morbid connection straight away. I hoped it would add to the tension as things build to a climax. It could just as easily be removed though.

Thanks again, let me know if you want anything read.

Cheers.

Col.



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Colkurtz8  -  April 16th, 2013, 2:26am
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Toby_E
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Col,

I really enjoyed this one, man.

I have a feeling I might have read the original version, when it was posted all those years ago. Just checked; and yep, I did give that a read. Despite that being well over 4 years ago now, I felt a sense of familiarity when I was reading this one.

So I guess you're doing something right, if your stories stick in people's minds for that long

But anyway, back to the script.

As I said at the start, I really liked it. There's really not too much for me to bring up. It was a clean, typo-free read, and none of the dialogue brought up any red flags for reading awkward or unnatural, either.

I sometimes dislike non-linear structure, if I feel that it is sometimes used purely as a gimmick, without actually bringing anything to the story.

However, I thought that it really did work here. Without it, I do not think that the story would have worked.

The only real issue I had with the script was that I felt that it hung around for slightly too long after (SPOILER) Patrick offs himself. I wasn't sure if the scene where Daniel gives Joseph back his toy train was necessary.

But yeah, this was a decent little short.

Well written, buddy.


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Andrew
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Colonel!

First off, nice work. You handled the three timelines well and the use of the dictaphone was a nice visual in differentiating that also doubled up to give the ending a bit more weight.

Your craft is spot on. No comments there needed.

My real thinking on this derives from the actual suicide. It's less an issue of the script, but more a rumination of the possible ramifications of the action. Is it me or is it actually incredibly selfish that Patrick would kill himself in front of a young child, and potentially scar this young lad who would not seek the revenge/retirbution of the mother at such a young age? I cannot for the life of me think how the seeing this image at such a youn age could be positive when Patrick is making this decision. Doesn't his decision simply underline that he has learnt nothing at all? It was his inability to control himself that led to the death of the young boy's father, and here again, it's his inability to deal with the guilt that leads to a grisly death that also unfairly impacts on Daniel. Is this intentionally woven into the script? Are we supposed to read this as an implicit message that there has been no growth on Patrick's part and his decisions still revolve around number one? There just appears a residue of bitterness in Patrick that seems to suggest he blames the victims in all of this - even if that's not what he's actually stating.

I ask these questions not as criticism, but because it's what stayed with me after reading it. It just felt so damned unfair. Sure, on a surface level Patrick was doing the 'right thing' in order to satisfy the vengeful nature of society, but in fact, this was kind of the last slap in the face for the family - at least that's how I would read it. It's definitely provoking thought, which is a sign of good writing - I'm just curious as to your intentions on these issues.

As someone else mentioned, you could probably shave a little off this and not lose much by way of impact, but instead add a smidgen more zip.

As ever, though, you don't disappoint, my friend. Nice one.


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Colkurtz8
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Toby

Thanks for the read, I’m glad it worked for you for the most part.

In regards Patrick’s scene with Linda and Joseph it was more to establish a connection with them thus making the characters more intrinsic to one another. I thought it would be a nice reveal to find out that Daniel had some prior interaction with the mother and son before Patrick arrived on the scene. I see it as a sort of epilogue, similar to your one in “Searching For Gemma” that brings the intersections of these character full circle. It may deflate the ending from the dramatics of Patrick’s action but I feel it adds to the horrible tragedy of the piece…of course I could be wrong.

Anyway, thanks for the comments.


Andrew

Thanks for the read, Andrew, I can always rely on you to the of the crux of it. Which, in this case, is the real motivation and value of Patrick’s suicide. Everything you say is correct and reasonably argued, exactly the kind of debate I hoped the script would spark and which a few people did address concerning the original draft some years back.

Suicide is considered by many to be a selfish act in itself although I believe there are exceptions. Patrick’s however, is not one of those, it is indeed a terribly selfish act, with massive, as you say, ramifications for those affected, particularly Joseph...Although I tried to imply in the prose that he or Linda don't see Patrick actually jump as they are watching the train pass by them. Yes, Patrick does leave an apologetic recording and subsequently throw himself under a train to repent his great sin and prove how sorry he is but I believe there is a part of him that realises the effect it will have on the people involved in which he derives some morbid comfort from, in knowing that his final act will be of some notoriety, it will effect somebody, the whole “go out with a  bang” ideal. However, as a counterpoint to that, Patrick is clearly unstable, you get a glimpse of his living conditions, his own life has really gone to pot since the incident, in his frazzled state of mind he may actually believe he is doing the honourable thing as his recorded testimony would have you think. Isn’t that what drives most suicide victims when deciding to go through with it, that they are doing the world a favour?  It’s this central argument I wanted readers to take away with them. I think everyone will and should seriously question Patrick’s true motivations, some will call him out as being nothing more than a careless, selfish basta?d looking for attention while others will have a degree of sympathy for somebody so rejected and miserable that the only viable option was suicide and through that act, had convinced themselves they were taking the noble route.

Either opinion is valid I think.

Thanks again for your comments.

Col.


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Hey Howard,

Returning the read. Below are my notes as I was reading the script, followed by my general thoughts.

"A portable TV flickers in the corner."

Flickers in what sense? I'm having trouble understanding what you mean. Does it have a flickering problem? Is someone changing the channels? Or is it flickering on static? I'm going to assume the foremost possibility.

Also, what I'm gathering from this first scene is that you're describing a series of shots, approx. 3 to 5, just as a way of "establishing."

"Tea bag stains blotch the wall over the exposed, bulging bin. "

I don't understand this.

", some
there longer than others."

I don't understand this either.

Okay, so first scene, you spend about 20 seconds getting across to us, arguably, a single point. I would spend 6 or 7 seconds, no more than 10. But I'm not going to pass judgment on this for now because maybe it'll work as I read on.

"INT. LINDA�S HOUSE � BEDROOM � MORNING "

After reading the scene (getting to the TRAINS are the theme of the room) I looked back to the heading. You should probably indicate that this is Joseph's room. Unless it's Linda's? Or do they both sleep in the same room? It's okay to indicate this even though you haven't introduced the character yet.

Also, this scene was somewhat quick, and again I'm still not sure the purpose of it at this point. Likewise, I'll not pass judgment for the time being.

The next scene, back at Patrick's flat could probably work better as a voice-over, as I don't see any real reason to show that he's drinking. I don't think its efficacious.

"It�s the tranquillity of early
morning, you know. Ideal
opportunity to take a walk...out
in the country of course, away
from all this...Where you can
really appreciate it. "

It seems contemplative, sure. But still, I don't know where this is going.

Pg. 3 INT. PATRICK�S FLAT � KITCHEN � NIGHT

"I�m not doing too good. Just can�t
seem to get my head right...I
thought I could slip back in
unnoticed. Try to pick things up
where I�d left them...rebuild. "

I don't understand why this is necessary, and I don't really get it. It's talking about something I have no knowledge of so I don't know how to respond i.e., "I'm not doing too good" Why? "Just can't seem to get my head right" Why? "I thought I could slip back in unnoticed" I don't understand. "Try to pick things up where I'd left them...rebuild." Again, I don't know whats going on. He's speaking very abstractly, and so for now, I'm just going to go along with his musing.

"his
formal, well-prepped attire for the first time. "

This seemed a bit redundant because I already know what his clothes look like. Just keep it short and say his clothes.

"I thought that�s what it would
take. Is five years not enough...?
Of course not. "

Not to belabor this point, but again don't know how this is relevant.

"A YOUNG COUPLE "

I don't think extras really need to be capitalized. I don't think I've ever read it like that before.

"Patrick holds out two hardened, callused HANDS, palms up."

I think this would read better:

"Patrick holds out his hardened and callused palms."

"Patrick laughs."

This is a bit awkward

"He looks
at his hands,"

He looks at Patrick's hands or his own hands?

"You�ll be happy to hear my family
haven�t talked to me since I�ve
come out. Friends...? I don�t have
any"

Okay, this is sort of intriguing at this point. Not 100% clear, but definitely intriguing.

"My wife moved away with her new
man...Thankfully we never had any
children. "

Now I'm not sure if this is Patrick in the Flat or Patrick at the Station.

"braces himself."

Why is he doing this? Maybe you need a better word than 'braces'. Is he nervous?

"You have to know how sorry I am,
both of you...and I realise these
words mean nothing... "

Now its feeling like a suicide note. At this point my wild guess, and this is completely wild and out of the blue gut feeling, is that he's going to jump in front of the train.

pg. 12 INT. PATRICK�S FLAT � KITCHEN � NIGHT & EXT. LINDA�S HOUSE � HALLWAY � MORNING

I honestly don't think these two scenes are necessary.

"Daniel gazes down at his hands. "

I'm guessing you're trying to get across the idea that he feels partly responsible? I get the tie in with Patrick looking at his hardened hands, but it still doesn't feel completely in sync with this.

"...I was up at half six, rose with
the sun. Kinda gives you a feeling
it's gonna be a nice day... "

I was looking for a clue here but got nothing.

"Then towards Linda who stares back at him."

I don't know what this is suppose to signify.


Overall, it was fairly good but it does need work. I still don't understand why he killed himself. There was that part about him saying his family hasn't talked to him "since [he's] come out." Again, I don't know what this means. Out of the closet? Regardless, I began to enjoy it around this point (page 7) because now I could kind of make out the narrative. But for the first six pages you're leaving me confused and I don't know where this is going. The information is all sort of disconnected.

The whole aspect of using the flashback reminded me a bit of LOST, so at the times where it didn't feel extraneous you did a good job with it. But there were others times where it feels unnecessary. I think the first six pages could benefit from being shortend by about 55%. It might seem like much, but the narrative only gets intriguing for me around page 7.

Nevertheless, I do still have some unanswered questions. There's a lot of assuming that I have to do to get the narrative to work right in my head. My instinct tells me he lied when he's telling the story to Daniel and he's the father of the child, but then again I can't be 100% sure of that. He could be a friend, an uncle, or the drunk driver in his story who wants to set things right. But I can't be sure of this either.

Okay, now I'm reading through the comments and it looks like he's the drunk driver. The only hint I see that could have made the connection clear for me was the part about five years. But this happens on page 4, but at that point I don't know that was relevant information to remember.

So my thoughts on the non-linear structure, I don't like it. It just really confused me and I don't like to be confused Personally, I don't think the story actually begins until page 7. Everything before that is very random. But I did enjoy what you did later on.

Upon further thought, what Andrew mentioned and you replied to, that double edged sword, I can see that. That's not bad.

Best luck with getting this one reworked,

-J.S.

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J.S.  -  May 14th, 2013, 3:53am
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spesh2k
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Hey Col, this was really good. I dig your writing style, easy on the eyes.

At about page 5, we figure that the drunk driver Patrick is speaking about is indeed himself, but when he asks that question "what are the odds of surviving", I was just as caught off guard as Daniel. I thought that maybe Patrick would apologize in person to rid himself of this guilt, though the thought that he might jump in front of the train was in the back of my head.

I like the way you weave the different time cuts to add tension to the story. And your characters are very fleshed out, too. Patrick comes across as a typical, guilt ridden drunk (which is done often) through his flashbacks of him sitting in his kitchen speaking into a tape recorder. But he also comes off as affable when we hear him speaking to Daniel -- I thought that after 5 years of prison, the way its written, that he was trying to find his way back into society.

I liked the ending and the last words, though I would have written it like this:

PATRICK (V.O.) God, I love these mornings, don't you?

Then back at the train.

PATRICK (V.O.) Kinda gives you the feeling its gonna be a nice day...

I'd cut out the "I was up at half six and rose with the sun" part. I don't think you need to include the full quote (from earlier in the story).

Also, one other minor thing, I got a little bit confused at parts because you do cut in and out between time sequences. One second Patrick is speaking to Daniel, then he'd be addressing his tape recorder, and then you'd cut to earlier at the train station with a Patrick V.O. -- I wasn't sure at times (at first) if his V.O. was a continuation of him addressing the tape recorder or a continuation of his conversation with Daniel - of course, after reading the whole block of VO dialogue, I figured it out.

Overall, fantastic work. Liked it a lot.


THE SUICIDE THEORY (Amazon Prime, 79% Rotten Tomatoes) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2517300/?ref_=nm_knf_i1
RAGE (Coming Feb. 2021) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8874764/?ref_=nm_knf_i2

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Colkurtz8
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James

Thanks for the read and detailed review.


Quoted from J.S.
"A portable TV flickers in the corner."

Flickers in what sense? I'm having trouble understanding what you mean. Does it have a flickering problem? Is someone changing the channels? Or is it flickering on static? I'm going to assume the foremost possibility.


- What I meant here is when a TV lies just within your field of vision, as in out of the corner of one’s eye it gives the allusion of flickering as it goes from shot to shot. In that opening scene I imagined the camera panning around the apartment taking in the squalor with the TV on in the background without the camera ever focusing on thus it would flicker in the corner.


Quoted from J.S.
Also, what I'm gathering from this first scene is that you're describing a series of shots, approx. 3 to 5, just as a way of "establishing."


- Correct, trying to give an impression of Patrick living conditions. thus character, purely through visuals.


Quoted from J.S.
"Tea bag stains blotch the wall over the exposed, bulging bin. "

I don't understand this.


- Have you ever been in a house where the occupants have a, shall we say, lacklustre approach to housekeeping? They’re too lazy to empty the bin so when it gets full they take the lid off to fit a bit more in. Once overflowing, if someone tries to toss a used tea bag on to it will often hit the wall behind it (presuming the bin is against one) leaving those blotchy stains.


Quoted from J.S.
", some
there longer than others."

I don't understand this either.


- The full line is:

“Dishes pile up in the sink, some there longer than others.”

Meaning some of the piled dishes have been piled up on the sink longer than others.


Quoted from J.S.
Okay, so first scene, you spend about 20 seconds getting across to us, arguably, a single point. I would spend 6 or 7 seconds, no more than 10. But I'm not going to pass judgment on this for now because maybe it'll work as I read on.


- As in the first scene so you mean kitchen and living room of Patrick’s house? Although it’s half a page (i.e. 30 seconds) action and no dialogue can vary drastically. Sometimes a page of action could equal 2 minutes, 5 minutes or 20 seconds of screen time, depending on what’s being shown and how. Dialogue can fluctuate from the minute per page rule of thumb too but not to the same degree as action I reckon.


Quoted from J.S.
"INT. LINDA�S HOUSE � BEDROOM � MORNING "

After reading the scene (getting to the TRAINS are the theme of the room) I looked back to the heading. You should probably indicate that this is Joseph's room. Unless it's Linda's? Or do they both sleep in the same room? It's okay to indicate this even though you haven't introduced the character yet.


- Good call, cheers.


Quoted from J.S.
Also, this scene was somewhat quick, and again I'm still not sure the purpose of it at this point. Likewise, I'll not pass judgment for the time being.

The next scene, back at Patrick's flat could probably work better as a voice-over, as I don't see any real reason to show that he's drinking. I don't think its efficacious.


- Hopefully this made more sense once you finished.


Quoted from J.S.
"It�s the tranquillity of early
morning, you know. Ideal
opportunity to take a walk...out
in the country of course, away
from all this...Where you can
really appreciate it. "

It seems contemplative, sure. But still, I don't know where this is going.


- Which is not a bad thing surely if it pays off at the end?


Quoted from J.S.
Pg. 3 INT. PATRICK�S FLAT � KITCHEN � NIGHT

"I�m not doing too good. Just can�t
seem to get my head right...I
thought I could slip back in
unnoticed. Try to pick things up
where I�d left them...rebuild. "

I don't understand why this is necessary, and I don't really get it. It's talking about something I have no knowledge of so I don't know how to respond i.e., "I'm not doing too good" Why? "Just can't seem to get my head right" Why? "I thought I could slip back in unnoticed" I don't understand. "Try to pick things up where I'd left them...rebuild." Again, I don't know whats going on. He's speaking very abstractly, and so for now, I'm just going to go along with his musing.


- Again, hopefully this makes more sense later on.


Quoted from J.S.
"his
formal, well-prepped attire for the first time. "

This seemed a bit redundant because I already know what his clothes look like. Just keep it short and say his clothes.


- Good point, duly noted.


Quoted from J.S.
"Patrick holds out two hardened, callused HANDS, palms up."

I think this would read better:

"Patrick holds out his hardened and callused palms."


- Thanks for the suggestion, I specified “palms up” merely for clarity.


Quoted from J.S.
"Patrick laughs."

This is a bit awkward


- I’m delighted you say that, I intended it that way. I formatted that line out on its own to stress the abruptness of his laugh at his own comment.


Quoted from J.S.
"He looks
at his hands,"

He looks at Patrick's hands or his own hands?


- Well spotted, I’ll change it to “He looks at his own hands”


Quoted from J.S.
Okay, this is sort of intriguing at this point. Not 100% clear, but definitely intriguing


- Good


Quoted from J.S.
"My wife moved away with her new
man...Thankfully we never had any
children. "

Now I'm not sure if this is Patrick in the Flat or Patrick at the Station.


- An understandable question. This is Patrick at the flat. I hoped the reader would determine this because the previous scene is at the flat with Patrick seemingly talking to himself. Any V.O is a continuation of the last scene we see Patrick in.


Quoted from J.S.
"braces himself."

Why is he doing this? Maybe you need a better word than 'braces'. Is he nervous?


- Yes he most certainly is. I dunno, maybe it’s a slang thing, where I’m from it’s a common phrase to describe somebody briefly preparing themselves (a deep breath, a cough, focusing of eyes etc,) before doing something daunting. I could be more specific I guess.


"You have to know how sorry I am,
both of you...and I realise these
words mean nothing... "


Quoted from J.S.
Now its feeling like a suicide note. At this point my wild guess, and this is completely wild and out of the blue gut feeling, is that he's going to jump in front of the train.


- Bingo!


Quoted from J.S.
pg. 12 INT. PATRICK�S FLAT � KITCHEN � NIGHT & EXT. LINDA�S HOUSE � HALLWAY � MORNING

I honestly don't think these two scenes are necessary.


-It's primarily a visual comparison showing the Dictaphone after the final message has been recorded juxtaposed with it at its chosen destination. I think it could work well on screen.


Quoted from J.S.
"Daniel gazes down at his hands. "

I'm guessing you're trying to get across the idea that he feels partly responsible? I get the tie in with Patrick looking at his hardened hands, but it still doesn't feel completely in sync with this.


- Part guilt since he had a grip on Patrick before his grip gave way which of course ties into the earlier comment by Patrick. It’s as if Daniel remembers the remark at the moment and instinctually looks down at his hands.


Quoted from J.S.
"...I was up at half six, rose with
the sun. Kinda gives you a feeling
it's gonna be a nice day... "

I was looking for a clue here but got nothing.


- This was bring things full circle, close the loop if you will as the second and third timelines connect. Also, I like the idea of referring back to Patrick at the beginning when he seems to so cheerful and life affirming compared to what we learn about him and his changed attitude right before he jumps.


Quoted from J.S.
"Then towards Linda who stares back at him."

I don't know what this is suppose to signify.


- Linda had just talked to Daniel so she is understandably curious as to why everybody else is staring at him. I imagine that Linda and Joseph don’t realise what has actually happened at this point as they are further down the platform but with all the commotion and the abrupt nature of the train’s braking she at least knows that something has gone down and the man she just talked to seems to be involved.


Quoted from J.S.
Overall, it was fairly good but it does need work. I still don't understand why he killed himself. There was that part about him saying his family hasn't talked to him "since [he's] come out." Again, I don't know what this means. Out of the closet? Regardless, I began to enjoy it around this point (page 7) because now I could kind of make out the narrative. But for the first six pages you're leaving me confused and I don't know where this is going. The information is all sort of disconnected.


- He kills himself because of the guilt he feels for killing Linda and Joseph’s husband/father while driving drunk after catching his wife cheating. Also, as a result, his life has gone to sh?t since the event, everyone has abandoned him. He served time for it, which is what “since I’ve come out” refers to.

Did you not realise that when Patrick is telling Daniel about Linda’s situation he lets on that it was someone else who committed the tragic act? This is intertwined with him recording the message in his apartment where he talks as if it were him that done it. I hoped that when you find out he’s talking on the Dictaphone and, in fact, recording a confession its clear as to which version is the actual truth and the other a story to separate him from the incident while gauging Patrick’s reaction.


Quoted from J.S.
The whole aspect of using the flashback reminded me a bit of LOST, so at the times where it didn't feel extraneous you did a good job with it. But there were others times where it feels unnecessary. I think the first six pages could benefit from being shortend by about 55%. It might seem like much, but the narrative only gets intriguing for me around page 7.


- It may only start coalescing around that point but the build-up makes more sense as you read on. Everything that has gone before informs the second half of the story as things come to a head. At least this was my intention.

Nevertheless, I do still have some unanswered questions. There's a lot of assuming that I have to do to get the narrative to work right in my head. My instinct tells me he lied when he's telling the story to Daniel and he's the father of the child, but then again I can't be 100% sure of that. He could be a friend, an uncle, or the drunk driver in his story who wants to set things right. But I can't be sure of this either.


Quoted from J.S.
Okay, now I'm reading through the comments and it looks like he's the drunk driver. The only hint I see that could have made the connection clear for me was the part about five years. But this happens on page 4, but at that point I don't know that was relevant information to remember.


- But it’s still in there. The answers are on the page. I mean, it’s only a 12 page script after all, there’s not a lot to retain I don’t think. Don’t get me wrong I understand what you mean and you are not the first to be confused by it but I’m confident the story  ties up, it just may require a second read. Also, I think it would be a lot easier to follow on screen as any script which has multiple timelines overlapping can be  taxing read.


Quoted from J.S.
So my thoughts on the non-linear structure, I don't like it. It just really confused me and I don't like to be confused Personally, I don't think the story actually begins until page 7. Everything before that is very random. But I did enjoy what you did later on.


Cool, it won’t work for everybody, if it’s not your thing so be it. Personally, I love non-linear films when done well e.g. Pulp Fiction, Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind, Memento to name a few.


Quoted from J.S.
Upon further thought, what Andrew mentioned and you replied to, that double edged sword, I can see that. That's not bad.

Best luck with getting this one reworked,


- Thanks so much again for taking the time to read this, James, and your extensive notes. Much appreciated, man. Just a shame it didn’t really work for you.

Regards

Col.


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Colkurtz8
Posted: May 29th, 2013, 5:43am Report to Moderator
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Michael

Thanks for reading, man.


Quoted from spesh2k
At about page 5, we figure that the drunk driver Patrick is speaking about is indeed himself, but when he asks that question "what are the odds of surviving", I was just as caught off guard as Daniel. I thought that maybe Patrick would apologize in person to rid himself of this guilt, though the thought that he might jump in front of the train was in the back of my head.


- The “what are the odds of surviving" is a somewhat facetious, rhetorical remark by Patrick as we all know that surviving a train running over you is an impossiblility. Patrick asks him more so to tie in to the earlier part of their conversation about Patrick profession.


Quoted from spesh2k
I like the way you weave the different time cuts to add tension to the story. And your characters are very fleshed out, too. Patrick comes across as a typical, guilt ridden drunk (which is done often) through his flashbacks of him sitting in his kitchen speaking into a tape recorder. But he also comes off as affable when we hear him speaking to Daniel -- I thought that after 5 years of prison, the way its written, that he was trying to find his way back into society.


- Yeah Patrick’s chirpiness here and in the original draft put off some people. My reasoning behind it is that he’s arrived at the last day of his life, a life he doesn’t want to live anymore, thus he’s happy, excited almost. Although, as the train nears, he does feel the pressure and gravity of his situation.


Quoted from spesh2k
I liked the ending and the last words, though I would have written it like this:

PATRICK (V.O.) God, I love these mornings, don't you?

Then back at the train.

PATRICK (V.O.) Kinda gives you the feeling its gonna be a nice day...

I'd cut out the "I was up at half six and rose with the sun" part. I don't think you need to include the full quote (from earlier in the story).


- Good suggestion, I've debated losing that line before but kept it in there. It could go.


Quoted from spesh2k
Also, one other minor thing, I got a little bit confused at parts because you do cut in and out between time sequences. One second Patrick is speaking to Daniel, then he'd be addressing his tape recorder, and then you'd cut to earlier at the train station with a Patrick V.O. -- I wasn't sure at times (at first) if his V.O. was a continuation of him addressing the tape recorder or a continuation of his conversation with Daniel - of course, after reading the whole block of VO dialogue, I figured it out.


James (J.S) said a similar thing, I hoped that as you read the order of scenes you will discern which Patrick is talking as his V.O. will always belong to the scene of him which preceded it but yeah I can see how it could be a bit confusing.

Cheers again for taking the time to read and review this one, Michael.

Regards

Col.


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Quoted from Colkurtz8
James

Thanks for the read and detailed review.


No problem


Quoted from Colkurtz8


- What I meant here is when a TV lies just within your field of vision, as in out of the corner of one�s eye it gives the allusion of flickering as it goes from shot to shot. In that opening scene I imagined the camera panning around the apartment taking in the squalor with the TV on in the background without the camera ever focusing on thus it would flicker in the corner.



I see. In the sense that its simply on some channel, the volume's turned down I assume.


Quoted from Colkurtz8


- Correct, trying to give an impression of Patrick living conditions. thus character, purely through visuals.



Okay, I see what you mean. Though it gave me the impression that he's just an untidy individual more so than that the condition of the room is such because of the incident. It requires retrospective thinking to fully get that across I think. So that's why I would suggest you tone it down a bit, just because in my opinion only those few shots would get the same message across. For example:

"Not much better. Tea bag stains blotch the wall over the
exposed, bulging bin. Dishes pile up in the sink, some
there longer than others. "

I imagine as a series of shots. Rather, you could just go with:

"In the same condition as the living room."

It's just as good. Just a suggestion


Quoted from Colkurtz8


- Have you ever been in a house where the occupants have a, shall we say, lacklustre approach to housekeeping? They�re too lazy to empty the bin so when it gets full they take the lid off to fit a bit more in. Once overflowing, if someone tries to toss a used tea bag on to it will often hit the wall behind it (presuming the bin is against one) leaving those blotchy stains.



Haha, no I've never heard of this. But now that you explained I can see what you mean. Though, honestly, its too descriptive. If it had some relevance, maybe its a running joke in the script, I could see why you would indicate that. But, no, I've never heard of that before


Quoted from Colkurtz8


- The full line is:

�Dishes pile up in the sink, some there longer than others.�

Meaning some of the piled dishes have been piled up on the sink longer than others.



I just don't understand how you could show a dish has been dirty and there longer than another dish. Is it growing mold on it? I don't know, it just struck me as odd. It's no big deal I suppose but I had to stop and think about that one for while.

I did just reread that paragraph and I think because this is description only and that the tea bag stains aren't actually blotching the wall as we see them and dishes aren't piling up in the sink as we see them i.e., there's not actual action going on here, it's just an image, you're better off saying "Tea bag stains have blotched the wall..." and "Dishes have piled up in the sink." It's more clear that way.


Quoted from Colkurtz8


- Yes he most certainly is. I dunno, maybe it�s a slang thing, where I�m from it�s a common phrase to describe somebody briefly preparing themselves (a deep breath, a cough, focusing of eyes etc,) before doing something daunting. I could be more specific I guess.



For me it was just seemed odd because there's no clear indication of it just yet. It feels premature to say he's bracing himself.


Quoted from Colkurtz8


Did you not realise that when Patrick is telling Daniel about Linda�s situation he lets on that it was someone else who committed the tragic act? This is intertwined with him recording the message in his apartment where he talks as if it were him that done it. I hoped that when you find out he�s talking on the Dictaphone and, in fact, recording a confession its clear as to which version is the actual truth and the other a story to separate him from the incident while gauging Patrick�s reaction.



Not really. Something about the way you introduced Patrick then Linda and Joseph I imagined they were a family. I don't know why, I just assumed that. So that idea kept going through my head as I was reading the script. And because the guy talking to Daniel seemed a shade cheerier than you might think, I thought he was the father and simply lying to Daniel about the father/drunk driver story. Honestly, not for a second would I have realized that he was the drunk driver. That information, which is essential to the story, it's essential to who he is, what he's doing there, and what he's done is revealed in an indirect way, with vague clues. As a matter of fact, as I wrote, I only understood this after I read the comments. And I think the only clear piece of information that would have helped me make that connection was the five years. But even that I felt wasn't presented clearly so that's why I was lost.


Quoted from Colkurtz8

- But it�s still in there. The answers are on the page. I mean, it�s only a 12 page script after all, there�s not a lot to retain I don�t think. Don�t get me wrong I understand what you mean and you are not the first to be confused by it but I�m confident the story  ties up, it just may require a second read. Also, I think it would be a lot easier to follow on screen as any script which has multiple timelines overlapping can be  taxing read.


I agree that a second read would be more rewarding for this kind of story. It's like a Memento mystery though slightly more confusing because that one still had the whole premise made clear to us straight in the beginning. It didn't sort of creep up to it like you did here. I personally think you could really make this one work if only you made some essential things more clear. I understand you want to drop clues along the way, but there's a certain point where it seems like that whole process is completely dull and unnecessary and only the ending really matters.

I'm reminded of what Hitchcock would say about Mystery or Whodunits. You're so tempted to go straight to the last page to find out what happens but everything prior to that is essentially wasted footage. Lubitsch sort of parodied that idea as well Cluny Brown where the professor says he'll write a book for 150 pages until he reveals what happens on the last page and that it'll make millions for the couple, something like that. And he does just that at the end and they do

So try maybe giving us more information and dropping clues from there on out. Grabs the audiences a little closer and then drop clues to the end from there on out. Or you could always play up the suspense by showing more information to the audience than what the characters know.


Quoted from Colkurtz8

Cool, it won�t work for everybody, if it�s not your thing so be it. Personally, I love non-linear films when done well e.g. Pulp Fiction, Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind, Memento to name a few.


I like those kinds of films too. You just have to be careful how you handle the essential information, what you decide to tell the audience and not tell them. Pulp Fiction is certainly not a mystery. Memento probably isn't either since it's more of a manhunt movie but there's that other angle of trying to figure out who he is what he's doing there. We the audience know he's losing his memory ever so often so we know who he is, at certain points, and in a way we do learn more about him as he does but we know he's going to try and figure out what he's after (the goal of the character) eventually. The real twist only happens at the end. But there was no indication of it anywhere prior in the movie. So it wasn't really a whodunit kind of Mystery. And so I don't think it's really a mystery/whodunit.


Quoted from Colkurtz8

- Thanks so much again for taking the time to read this, James, and your extensive notes. Much appreciated, man. Just a shame it didn�t really work for you.

Regards

Col.


No problem. Don't get me wrong, I think you can really get this one to work much better. It's one of those plotting things that can sometimes be a bit tricky I know, I've been there before. I've written similar stuff in the past. It's never quite satisfied me and it gets too complicated for me to write the plot holes out of existence. But I think you can really fix this one up. Just some more exposition in the beginning would be a great benefit to your story.

If you ever do rework this into another draft let me know and I read it.

Take care,

-J.S.
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Colkurtz8
Posted: June 2nd, 2013, 2:28am Report to Moderator
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James

Thanks for the detailed response I'll be taking your suggestions on board in future. Your points about the structure and build of the story are interesting, I guess its just a style thing, whatever works for you, we each have our reasons.

I'll keep an eye out for your work in future.

Regards

Col.


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CoopBazinga
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Hey Col,

This was a good read and a very powerful story. I loved the non-linear structure going on here (which sometimes I don't) but it made this one all the better. I think the story would have suffered or lost impact by going the traditional route.

In saying that, I did become really confused in the last few pages and had to re-read one section when Daniel picks up the toy train. Other than that, the writing was good, lean and a breeze to get through.

Story-wise - only one thing stuck out to me in what is a great story and that was Patrick's decision to commit suicide in front of the wife and child. I get his reason, the guilt he feels but I didn't understand why he chose to do it this way and possibly scar the poor boy for life?

Otherwise, I liked it a lot - good work.

Steve
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Colkurtz8
Posted: July 10th, 2013, 3:00am Report to Moderator
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Coop

Thank for taking the time and I’m glad the script worked for the most part.

Yeah, the timelines become a little more blurred and fractured near the end as events pick up dramatically and one timeline collides with another. I do believe it would work more comprehensibly on screen though.

The nature of Patrick's motivation have always been a big talking point with this and the first draft.

In Patrick's warped state of mind he is doing a brave and noble act which of course he's not, it’s a very selfish one with, as you say, major repercussions for those involved…but try telling him that. He has had enough of the life he ultimately caused so in his mindset, in order to give it some value or meaning, he’s "sacrificing" himself in front of them to illustrate his remorse. In his eyes, everyone’s a winner. It’s very misguided indeed.

I hope that goes some way to explaining things.

Let me know if you have anything on the boards.

Col.


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RichardR
Posted: June 12th, 2015, 8:34am Report to Moderator
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Col.

Here goes.

Here we go.  I’ll start at the beginning.
You set up a depressed man who lives a crummy life in a crummy place.  So, when he commits suicide, it is any surprise?  Often, when someone decides to commit suicide, he becomes cheerful.  Decision made, there’s no reason to be depressed.  Also, often suicides clean up before they go.  They don’t want anyone to have to do it after they’re gone.  If it were me, I’d have Patrick buy new underwear, perhaps a new shirt.  
And we immediately start the time jumps.  OK.  Linda and Joseph work just fine.  Trains are great.
Patrick’s first line is awkward at best.  Why be so formal?  Simply, ‘What would you have me say?’ or ‘what should I say?’ or ‘what do you want to hear?’  Simple works.
And another time jump.  We met Daniel.  And Patrick has a good line.  He loves these mornings, as if he’s anticipating a wonderful day.
Another time leap and voice over.  You have an ideal chance to plant a seed here.  You can hint at what’s coming for Patrick.  A walk can be a ‘chance to clear your head,’ or an ‘opportunity to see straight.’  Something that will mean something at the end.
Daniel has a chance too.  Give him a good line.  ‘I clear my head with coffee.’  ‘I find I need only twenty minutes ready myself.’  
Back to Patrick at night, and who is he talking to?  Why talk?  How many people actually talk out loud when they’re alone?  Can you show how his life is going?  A past due bill?  A returned card from his former wife?  A returned card from Linda?  
Time jump and some info on Daniel.  And how about a better line for Patrick.  ‘I never had much use for public transportation.  I always drove.’  Indicating that now, he has a use for it?
The next scene is a throwaway.  What does it do for the story?  We will infer that she puts on makeup.  
Next scene is also not needed.  Patrick Isn’t talking to himself for his sake, it’s for the sake of the audience, and that weakens the story.
The couple has no real part in this, do they?  And why not have them shake?  Daniel notices the roughness, and then, Patrick explains and apologizes.  Also, you might consider having Daniel ask about Linda.  He notices the attention Patrick is paying and he asks.  Especially since Daniel sees Linda and Joseph every morning.  He just doesn’t have the guts to approach her.  Then, Patrick tells the story.
How does Patrick know Joe would have been a wonderful father?  The rest works, although what does Joe being an actuary add to the story?  And you have a chance here to reinforce Daniel’s character.  How about he spouts some statistic about how many married men die in an automobile accident before they turn 30?
Another kitchen scene with the same problem.
Do we need to see Linda’s car?
And now we get Parick describing himself.  Five years in the slammer.  And it’s not justice, not for a life, but then, he never intended to kill anyone.  It was an awful accident, no?
Show us how alone Patrick has become.  Don’t tell us.  
Next scene is needed.  Linda leaves so Patrick can leave his note.  And at this point, I’m thinking Patrick was dictating in the other scenes, but if so, show it.  
And you do show Patrick taking something off the table.  OK, at this point, I can buy that Patrick was making a heartfelt confession and mea culpa, but it doesn’t sound like it.  Why?  Because it’s about Patrick.  A true confession should focus on the wronged person, no?
I’m not sure Daniel would know the chances of surviving a train accident.  He might well know how many people die by jumping in front of a train.  But how many tried?  
And back again in time to the house and Patrick’s note.
And we jump a few more times before we get to the jump.  All needed?  Can we infer that Patrick paid his cabbie?
We go from the train to the incident between Daniel and Linda earlier.  Placing?  After the jump, everything should end quickly, no?
The earlier scenes should come earlier.  They give Patrick a reason to meet Daniel.  Is he doing Linda a favor?
And the final voice over.  Needed?  If it were more cryptic when first given, then a repeat would divulge Patrick’s true meaning.  But the lines are not cryptic, ironic maybe but not cryptic.  
OK, we’ve gone through the script, pretty much scene by scene.  Here are my last thoughts.  I think you time jump too much.  The last thing you want is confusion.  Yes, you want surprise but not confusion.  And if you’re looking for surprise, make Patrick much more circumspect in his farewell speech.  Show rather than tell.  
One of the problems I had with Patrick is that he decides to kill himself in atonement and does it right in front of Linda and Joseph.  Is that really the act of a remorseful man?  He traumatizes the kid even as he tries to help?  I might suggest that his real act of atonement is an old life insurance policy that he has assigned to Linda.  Since it’s old, it pays even in event of suicide.  Patrick has no one else to leave it to.  But you still have the problem of doing it in front of the child.  Not a pretty sight.
I hope this helps.  Much of this is very good.  Cut out some of the scenes that don’t add much, and perhaps make Patrick’s suicide more unexpected.  
Best
Richard
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Colkurtz8
Posted: June 15th, 2015, 9:21am Report to Moderator
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Richard

Thanks for checking this out.


Quoted from RichardR
You set up a depressed man who lives a crummy life in a crummy place.  So, when he commits suicide, it is any surprise?  


I hoped it would still come as surprise as the story unfolds and you understand what’s going on and why. There are obvious hints along the way and Patrick’s living conditions are a tell tale sign that this guy has given up but its more about the process, the final hours and deeds of this man’s life. The fact that he commits suicide is known to us but that is only the culmination of events. It’s the events themselves that is the main concern of the story. How these characters are linked and what transpired to result in what we’re witnessing now.


Quoted from RichardR
Often, when someone decides to commit suicide, he becomes cheerful.  Decision made, there’s no reason to be depressed.


You’ll notice there is a happy tone to some of Patrick’s lines, particularly at the beginning when he talks about waking up early and embracing the day. Also, at the end when he comments on the minuscule odds of him surviving a train collision, a look of peace comes over him.

In between that though as he relays the stuff about his cheating wife, the car crash and repercussions does his tone be wholly regretful and sombre...and understandably so.


Quoted from RichardR
Also, often suicides clean up before they go.  They don’t want anyone to have to do it after they’re gone. If it were me, I’d have Patrick buy new underwear, perhaps a new shirt.  


I never saw that as entering Patrick’s mind. Given his tortured mindset it’s really not his concern. On the other hand, who knows, he may have cleaned up that morning off screen...but I seriously doubt it
I do understand what you’re saying though. I think you can look at it a couple of ways, some people might get their affairs in order, buy new clothes, pay the bills, clean the house before doing it while others will be the opposite, let themselves go, stop keeping up appearance, etc...Patrick is clearly the latter.


Quoted from RichardR
Patrick’s first line is awkward at best.  Why be so formal?  Simply, ‘What would you have me say?’ or ‘what should I say?’ or ‘what do you want to hear?’  Simple works.


You’re dead right, Patrick’s delivery is stilted and formal. Hopefully this made more sense when you discover the true construct of that scene.


Quoted from RichardR
Another time leap and voice over.  You have an ideal chance to plant a seed here.  You can hint at what’s coming for Patrick.  A walk can be a ‘chance to clear your head,’ or an ‘opportunity to see straight.’  Something that will mean something at the end.  


I realise that is doesn’t seem clear now as you read but again, hopefully by the end you will understand. All of Patrick’s lines carry significance in the greater scheme of things.


Quoted from RichardR
Daniel has a chance too.  Give him a good line.  ‘I clear my head with coffee.’  ‘I find I need only twenty minutes ready myself.’  


I thought his line was suitably flippant and light to contrast with Patrick’s weighty chattiness. I’ll look at it again. Cheers.


Quoted from RichardR
Back to Patrick at night, and who is he talking to?  Why talk?  How many people actually talk out loud when they’re alone?


Again, this becomes clear further on.

  
Quoted from RichardR
Can you show how his life is going?  A past due bill? A returned card from his former wife?  A returned card from Linda?  


I figured I showed enough in the beginning by describing his dilapidated surroundings.  The returned cards are a nice touch though I may incorporate that, thanks. Although, I would think they’d tear them up and burn/dump them rather than go through the hassle of sending them back. Maybe I could show a returned cheque or something, that.


Quoted from RichardR
Time jump and some info on Daniel.  And how about a better line for Patrick.  ‘I never had much use for public transportation.  I always drove.’  Indicating that now, he has a use for it?


I feel the current line works fine as his comment about his car giving out carries extra meaning when we find out what exactly happened with it and why he must rely on public transport now.


Quoted from RichardR
The next scene is a throwaway.  What does it do for the story?  We will infer that she puts on makeup.  


It’s about process, preparation. I wanted to parallel Linda getting ready to face the day with how Patrick is preparing for his last day.


Quoted from RichardR
Next scene is also not needed.  Patrick Isn’t talking to himself for his sake, it’s for the sake of the audience, and that weakens the story.


As before this becomes clear. Plus, I didn’t want to have too much VO so I cut to Patrick, seemingly talking to himself or to an unseen person across the table, as often as possible. It mightn’t seem important on paper but on screen, depending on the actor of course, it would be more effective to show Patrick’s expressions as he relays his message.


Quoted from RichardR
The couple has no real part in this, do they?


No, just passersby but I always capitalize people.


Quoted from RichardR
And why not have them shake?  Daniel notices the roughness, and then, Patrick explains and apologizes.


This is to add to the somewhat off-kilter, disconcerting tone of Patrick’s manner, the fact that he’d even suggest they should’ve shaken hands. However eyebrow raising is it for Patrick to just randomly come up to Daniel and start talking to him like this, a formal handshake would have been even stranger.


Quoted from RichardR
Also, you might consider having Daniel ask about Linda.  He notices the attention Patrick is paying and he asks.  Especially since Daniel sees Linda and Joseph every morning.  He just doesn’t have the guts to approach her.  Then, Patrick tells the story.


Maybe you misconstrued it a different way but Patrick doesn’t make his interest in Linda clear until he starts talking about her. Prior to that he’s just looking down the platform (which I imagined to be both at Linda and looking out for the train) but to Daniel he could be looking at anybody or anything. I’d think that Daniel would presume he is looking out for the train.


Quoted from RichardR
How does Patrick know Joe would have been a wonderful father?  


At this point, Patrick is relaying the story as an observer, as if he read about so perhaps he might have been acquainted with him. Of course, as we find out at he was the drunk driver so I always considered this to be glorifying remark, it’s pure speculation on Patrick’s part but he’s almost saying to punish himself, to emphasise what he took away from this family.


Quoted from RichardR
although what does Joe being an actuary add to the story?  And you have a chance here to reinforce Daniel’s character.  How about he spouts some statistic about how many married men die in an automobile accident before they turn 30?


As you’ll have read, this is paid off later. It’s admittedly a little contrived and could easily be omitted. I thought it added a tragic irony but I may have overstepped it.


Quoted from RichardR
Another kitchen scene with the same problem.


I already gave reasoning for repeatedly cutting to Patrick’s flat. I won’t bore you with repeating it. I’ve done enough of that on other points.


Quoted from RichardR
Do we need to see Linda’s car?


Again, it about process and parallels. How it’s everyday and mundane (though that is soon to be changed) for Linda and Joseph but entirely different for Patrick.


Quoted from RichardR
And now we get Patrick describing himself.  Five years in the slammer.  And it’s not justice, not for a life, but then, he never intended to kill anyone.  It was an awful accident, no?


Yes it’s an awful accident but wouldn’t you still hold Patrick accountable? He was drinking driving on the wrong side of the motorway!


Quoted from RichardR
Show us how alone Patrick has become.  Don’t tell us.


The “show, don’t tell” rule of thumb is a good one to go by but in this case, given the nature of the scene, a character leaving a message, it’s all about Patrick explaining himself.


Quoted from RichardR
And at this point, I’m thinking Patrick was dictating in the other scenes, but if so, show it.  


I do...wait...


Quoted from RichardR
And you do show Patrick taking something off the table.  OK, at this point, I can buy that Patrick was making a heartfelt confession and mea culpa, but it doesn’t sound like it.  Why?  Because it’s about Patrick.  A true confession should focus on the wronged person, no?


This is a great point and my thinking has always been (since this point has been rightfully brought up many times before by others on this and the original version), in the warped state of mind Patrick is in he feels like he is doing the honourable thing by leaving this message, laying out how bad he feels, how his life has been irrevocably damaged too, and how he will sacrifice that life in front of them as a way to somehow prove his shame and guilt over what happened but of course it’s a woefully misguided and downright selfish approach. However, trying telling that to someone like Patrick and the headspace he’s in.


Quoted from RichardR
I’m not sure Daniel would know the chances of surviving a train accident.  He might well know how many people die by jumping in front of a train.  But how many tried?  


You’re right and you’ll notice that Daniel doesn’t answer him. Patrick is just throwing the question at him because of the nature of his profession but I don’t believe he expects an answer either.


Quoted from RichardR
And back again in time to the house and Patrick’s note.
And we jump a few more times before we get to the jump.  All needed?


I think so because this is the “hopefully it all make sense now” moment when we see the Dictaphone and Patrick finishes his message juxtaposed with him dropping the Dictaphone through the letter box and following Linda to the train station juxtaposed with him jumping in front of the train. This is when it comes together, the culmination of the three timelines.


Quoted from RichardR
Can we infer that Patrick paid his cabbie?


Yes you can, by all means It only a quick shot to show him entering the train station from the same taxi. A linking scene to help map Patrick’s movements, continuity for sake of clarity.



Quoted from RichardR
We go from the train to the incident between Daniel and Linda earlier.  Placing?  After the jump, everything should end quickly, no?


True, Patrick’s jump and Dictaphone reveal are essentially the climax but not every film must end on that. The post jump sequence bring the scenes full circle, close the loop. It where the earlier morning scenes (Linda and Joseph at home) join up with the later morning scenes (train station) I feel it gives a clearer picture of events as a whole.

Also, we understand now why Patrick picked Daniel to chat to. He seen his brief interaction with Linda and Joseph and focused on him to tell “a version” of events. Basically, I see Patrick as just wanting someone to talk to while he waited for his fate.


Quoted from RichardR
The earlier scenes should come earlier.  They give Patrick a reason to meet Daniel.


Yes, chronologically they are earlier as in when Linda and Patrick reach the station and like I said, they give a reason why Patrick chose Daniel to talk to. However, given the non-linear structure of the script we’re only witnessing them now.


Quoted from RichardR
Is he doing Linda a favor?


Not sure what you mean here, sorry. Are you talking about Daniel or Patrick? If it’s the latter then no, this won’t do Linda or Joseph any good but as I reasoned, in Patrick’s twisted mind he truly believes he is doing right by them.


Quoted from RichardR
And the final voice over.  Needed?  If it were more cryptic when first given, then a repeat would divulge Patrick’s true meaning.  But the lines are not cryptic, ironic maybe but not cryptic. ?


Well, it’s more irony I was going for or how these words that seemed so innocuous and positive at the beginning have now taken on a much more sinister and doleful edge. We now know why Patrick was so cheerful, so appreciative of rising early and facing this particular day.


Quoted from RichardR
OK, we’ve gone through the script, pretty much scene by scene.  Here are my last thoughts.  I think you time jump too much.  The last thing you want is confusion.  Yes, you want surprise but not confusion.  


I can totally understand the confusion criticism, there is a lot of intercutting here which makes it a challenging read. However, it’s all there for a reason and does make sense when considered. On screen, the switching back and forth between timelines wouldn’t be such a big issue but I’ll admit on the page, it can be taxing.


Quoted from RichardR
And if you’re looking for surprise, make Patrick much more circumspect in his farewell speech.  Show rather than tell.  


As I said, he’s leaving a message, that’s the nature of it, the character talks. My intention was that the Dictaphone would make it all worthwhile and one would forgive the talkativeness when grasping the true nature of the scene and why Patrick is doing what he’s doing. It will work for some, not for others and that’s ok.

CONT'D...


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Colkurtz8
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CONT'D

Yup, I waffled on so much that I couldn't fit it into one one post.

The writer doth protests too much, methinks.

Anyway, I'm nearly done. I promise.


Quoted from RichardR
One of the problems I had with Patrick is that he decides to kill himself in atonement and does it right in front of Linda and Joseph.  Is that really the act of a remorseful man?  He traumatizes the kid even as he tries to help?


I addressed this already in regards the skewed logic of Patrick’s (what he deems honourable) act. It’s a totally valid point and I’m heartened when people bring it up because its shows they’ve got more of a moral compass than Patrick who is so far off in his attempt at atonement. You’re right, it is a totally misjudged, damaging attempt at absolution.


Quoted from RichardR
I might suggest that his real act of atonement is an old life insurance policy that he has assigned to Linda.  Since it’s old, it pays even in event of suicide.  Patrick has no one else to leave it to.  But you still have the problem of doing it in front of the child.  Not a pretty sight.


I’m not aiming to give this a redemptive touch to be honest, that’s not the story I wanted to tell. Unfortunately, it’s mired in delusion, pain and regret, amongst other delightful stuff


Quoted from RichardR
I hope this helps.  


This helped a lot man, and thanks for providing such extensive and thoughtful notes. You brought up many perceptive points.  I particularly like reviews which comment as they read because it’s a great way to gauge on-the-spot reactions and how the reader is responding to your work along the way. Hopefully I was able to address some of your issues and clarify my intentions too.

Cheers

Col.


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SAC
Posted: June 27th, 2015, 9:05pm Report to Moderator
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Col,

Hello sir! Just read this now, and once last week. Let it sink in a little. I admire your work. However, with this one I am still trying to figure out the "point" of this one. Most of your others have a message I can relate to, this one not so much as it feels more like a sad slice of life piece.

One can easily see all the pieces that make this hold together. Daniel being an actuary, little Joseph and his toy train. But why? I'm big on certain "items" giving depth to the story, but did Joseph's toy train have any deeper meaning or just coincidence?  And I felt it a bit of a stretch that Daniel happens to be an actuary? Was that coincidence as well? I wonder if I missed something here.  I can see how that relates to the story, and it definitely works and adds meaning to what Patrick eventually does.

Hmm. Tell me I'm missing something here, Col. I wouldn't be surprised if I was. What it actually feels like, with this non-linear weaving in and out, is more of an exercise of your writing chops. If that is the case, I'd say you've succeeded as it is written very, very well. It doesn't miss a beat, imo.  Even the one issue I had, with Patrick talking to himself alone in the apartment, was clarified later that he was speaking into a recorder.  I loved how we saw that recorder laying just before the rug with the letters flitting on top of it. Extremely visual -- great writing. You captured your characters movements well. I enjoyed the scene of Daniel's relief as the train approached.

Daniel's relief? Hmm, now that's interesting right there.

Joseph's train striking Daniel's foot. You could read something into that, but I don't. It just seems like all these character are linked together on this one particular morning where it all comes to a head. Daniel's more like a wild card thrown in, the one true witness to Patrick's plan.

Overall, great writing. It works well for me regardless if I've missed anything because your writing style carries this along very smoothly.

Steve

Steve


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Colkurtz8
Posted: June 30th, 2015, 8:51am Report to Moderator
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Steven

Thanks for taking the time.


Quoted from SAC
However, with this one I am still trying to figure out the "point" of this one. Most of your others have a message I can relate to, this one not so much as it feels more like a sad slice of life piece.


Yeah, it is mostly what you say, charting the final acts of a man’s life, the process of that. The decision he ultimately makes but also what came before which culminated in what we see depicted now. To show how these seemingly disparate people are connected in a major way (Patrick and Linda) and a more minor, coincidental way (Daniel and Linda/Patrick) but by the end are all inextricably linked forever because of what has happened.

I tried to drip feed the story and gradually create the context around it so to understand what is going on and why which only really coalesces in the final pages. I hoped the weaving together of these characters and timelines in a non-linear fashion would inject some intrigue, suspense and in the end, shock.


Quoted from SAC
One can easily see all the pieces that make this hold together. Daniel being an actuary, little Joseph and his toy train. But why? I'm big on certain "items" giving depth to the story, but did Joseph's toy train have any deeper meaning or just coincidence?

The toy train doesn’t hold any significance other then it being a visual link to the train itself. My thinking is that since he and his mother take this train all the time they have become a fascination for him, which trains do for a lot of kids. Although, after this experience, he may develop a phobia of them.


Quoted from SAC
And I felt it a bit of a stretch that Daniel happens to be an actuary? Was that coincidence as well? I wonder if I missed something here.  I can see how that relates to the story, and it definitely works and adds meaning to what Patrick eventually does.

I’ll admit that smells of contrivance.      It was to add another layer, an element of irony and coincidence that yeah, could only happen in the movies.


Quoted from SAC
Hmm. Tell me I'm missing something here, Col. I wouldn't be surprised if I was. What it actually feels like, with this non-linear weaving in and out, is more of an exercise of your writing chops.


Yeah, I was definitely trying to push myself in terms of structure and seeing how I could tell an otherwise simple story in the more intricate but more importantly, dramatically satisfying way. As you’ll have gathered, this is based on an earlier script which was just Patrick at the station confessing to Daniel the guilt he felt over what he’s done before pointing out Linda and Joseph on the platform and jumping in front of the oncoming train. It was linear and straightforward that built gradually to a climax. Where you only learned of Patrick’s motives near the end, right before he commits the act.

Here I wanted to take that idea but rework it in such a way that not only does Patrick’s motives gradually become clear later in the narrative (with the added misdirection of him telling Daniel it was someone else who killed Linda’s husband paralleled with his own guilt ridden message) but we also get to see Linda and Joseph go about, what is supposed to be, just another day for them thus getting the reader wondering what binds these people together. Plus, I was able to insert a sleight of hand in the Dictaphone reveal which plays a big part in Patrick’s preparation for his final day and changes our initial perception of those “night before” scenes. So while I can understand that it might seem like merely an exercise, all smoke and mirrors to obscure what is in essence a basic story, there were legitimate dramatic reasons for telling it like this too. Then again, you could probably say this about a lot of non-linear stories.


Quoted from SAC
It doesn't miss a beat, imo.  Even the one issue I had, with Patrick talking to himself alone in the apartment, was clarified later that he was speaking into a recorder.  I loved how we saw that recorder laying just before the rug with the letters flitting on top of it. Extremely visual -- great writing.


Thanks, I’m glad you were able to follow the switching timelines because I know they can be difficult to keep track of and make the read a little taxing. On screen this wouldn’t really be a problem though. I’m happy the Dictaphone reveal worked for you too.


Quoted from SAC
You captured your characters movements well.


Even though I know you’re referring to specifics, body language, expressions, etc, I’m pleased you mentioned movements because again, in the general sense of the word, this is about process and preparation. Some readers have questioned the necessity of Linda and Joseph’s scenes in their house but I think they are crucial in establishing the routine of these characters. That this started out as ordinary day for them. This extends to showing Patrick turning off the Dictaphone, going upstairs and turning off the lights. To the next morning when he’s in waiting in the taxi before walking to the door and dropping the Dictaphone through the letterbox. To him getting back into the taxi, following Linda and Joseph, exiting the taxi and entering the train station. There is an element of watching these unconnected lives slowly converge on a collision course, figurative and literally.


Quoted from SAC
I enjoyed the scene of Daniel's relief as the train approached.

Daniel's relief? Hmm, now that's interesting right there.


Yeah there is a tragic irony to that. Daniel is initially relieved at its interruption but of course he doesn’t realise how much of an interruption it’s actually going to cause. It’s cool you picked up on that.


Quoted from SAC
Joseph's train striking Daniel's foot. You could read something into that, but I don't. It just seems like all these character are linked together on this one particular morning where it all comes to a head. Daniel's more like a wild card thrown in, the one true witness to Patrick's plan.


Yeah you could read into the train hitting Daniel’s foot as portentous of what’s to come, in a much bigger sense but I didn’t want readers to attach too much meaning to it, it’s just a little touch. Think of it as a less overt version of the boulder in Sexy Beast

On a purely practical level though it’s a trigger for him and Linda to interact. Daniel is the wild card as you say, the variable, as his only link is the fact that he spoke to Linda on that morning. Since Patrick has just entered the platform at this time, I imagined he saw them talking so he chose Daniel as the one to say his parting words to.


Quoted from SAC
...regardless if I've missed anything...


- No, you got a good grasp of it and picked up on some touches that a lot of others haven’t so don’t sell yourself short. I’d like to tell you there is some overarching message or point or theme at work here but I’m not that clever, sorry

Thanks again for the read and you r comments, much appreciated, man.

Col.


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Grandma Bear
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I swear I have read this one before. Long time ago. I scrolled through the comments, but didn't see any reviews from me. I must be getting old!

Anyway, here we go.

I totally get what the story is about, but I'm wondering if the non linear way you chose to tell it is the most effective. The reason I'm wondering is because about halfway through or so, we know what's going to happen. That sort of takes away from the strong impact this story should have, IMO. The second half of the script, we're just waiting for Patrick to go ahead and jump. When he finally does, it doesn't feel like a traumatic event.

I also had some questions about reason. For example, since Patrick caused so much pain for others through his actions in the past, why would he commit suicide in front of poor Joseph? And, jumping in front of a train no less, which I can only imagine would be a rather nasty sight. Why would he insist on the little boy seeing that? IMO, that doesn't seem very thoughtful of Patrick who wants to do the right thing. Even leaving a recording behind for them.

I can't believe I would say this, but I think I would've preferred a longer better conversation with Daniel instead. One that starts out seemingly innocent where they talk about normal stuff. Then slowly it becomes clear that what Patrick has been talking about was something completely different than we first thought. Kind of like that first scene in Inglorious Basterds. Intercut this longer conversation with Linda and Joseph getting ready and finally arrive at the train station. Maybe Joseph drops the train on Patrick's foot instead?

Just me rambling. Trying to think what I would do, which doesn't mean it would make it better. A few suggestions, is all.

Powerful story, that suffers at the moment from the non linear telling.

Hope any of this will be useful. If not, just chuck it!  


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Colkurtz8
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Quoted from Grandma Bear
I swear I have read this one before. Long time ago. I scrolled through the comments, but didn't see any reviews from me. I must be getting old!


Nope, you’ve still a few years of cognizance before dementia sets in. I sent this to you on email some years back. Plus, you read the original version so that’s probably firing off somewhere in those young, healthy, fully functioning synapses of yours


Quoted from Grandma Bear
I totally get what the story is about, but I'm wondering if the non linear way you chose to tell it is the most effective. The reason I'm wondering is because about halfway through or so, we know what's going to happen. That sort of takes away from the strong impact this story should have, IMO. The second half of the script, we're just waiting for Patrick to go ahead and jump. When he finally does, it doesn't feel like a traumatic event.


I think it does benefit from the non-linear structure. This was expanded from an earlier script which was told very straightforward and although you don’t find out Patrick’s motivation until the last minute there I thought it would be interesting to see could I incorporate more of the surrounding events leading up to the act itself, to give a fully rounded picture while slipping in some additional layers of misdirection and twists along the way. The non-linear approach gave me that facility.

I don’t think its obvious Patrick is going to kill himself that early. Or at least I hoped it wouldn't be. Maybe you came to this conclusion quicker because you’ve read this before...or you’re just that sharp on the uptake I tried to obfuscate Patrick’s intention by having him tell Daniel it was someone else who killed Linda’s husband while he relays a decidedly different message in his apartment the night before all the while intertwining it with Linda and Joseph’s preparations for their day ahead.

At first it’s not clear how they are connected, who Patrick is talking to and how much to really believe what he is saying to Daniel. I hoped the reader wouldn’t grasp the full measure of things until those last pages when we find out that Patrick’s is essentially giving his last rites into the Dictaphone which is bound for Linda.

I intentionally switched back and forth, compared and contrasted Patrick’s “night before” dialogue with the version he tells Daniel the next morning. The idea was to keep you guessing and wondering up until the end but maybe I gave too much away for you and I’m totally willing to accept that. Thankfully most others didn’t anticipate the climax before it happens, they might have an idea what might go down but not how it will unfold.


Quoted from Grandma Bear
I also had some questions about reason. For example, since Patrick caused so much pain for others through his actions in the past, why would he commit suicide in front of poor Joseph? And, jumping in front of a train no less, which I can only imagine would be a rather nasty sight. Why would he insist on the little boy seeing that? IMO, that doesn't seem very thoughtful of Patrick who wants to do the right thing. Even leaving a recording behind for them.


I remember you brought this issue up before on both drafts so at least you’re consistent More importantly, it’s a perfectly valid point to make. My response now is the same as I gave then, that in Patrick’s warped state of mind, he believes he is doing the right thing by them, giving them what they want. Doing the honourable thing almost.

He talks of how they wanted him “to rot in there (prison)” how everyone has abandoned him so he figures he is doing the world a favour here, especially Linda and Joseph. For some people, suicide is synonymous with selfishness and Patrick’s can certainly be viewed in this manner. It is a totally self serving act in the end, destined to traumatise Linda and Joseph, but try telling that to someone like him, in his situation and mindset.


Quoted from Grandma Bear
I can't believe I would say this, but I think I would've preferred a longer better conversation with Daniel instead. One that starts out seemingly innocent where they talk about normal stuff. Then slowly it becomes clear that what Patrick has been talking about was something completely different than we first thought.


Clearly it didn’t work for you but this is exactly what I was trying to achieve both in this and the original draft. Patrick’s initial demeanour is cheery and friendly, his chatter is innocuous, I mean, he starts by talking about the weather! Then as the conversation wears on he becomes increasingly serious and disconcerting, his tone darkens, he mentions Linda and Joseph, talks of their past tragedy from a third party perspective before revealing the true nature of things, why he is hear and what he plans to do.


Quoted from Grandma Bear
Intercut this longer conversation with Linda and Joseph getting ready and finally arrive at the train station. Maybe Joseph drops the train on Patrick's foot instead?


This could work, to make a less intricate dual intercut. I guess I liked adding that third element and playing with the Dictaphone twist. Again, this is what the non-linear technique allowed me to do, hopefully make it a little more of a puzzle and, most importantly, provide a greater dramatic pay-off at the end.


Quoted from Grandma Bear
Just me rambling. Trying to think what I would do, which doesn't mean it would make it better. A few suggestions, is all.


No this is good stuff, thank you as always for taking the time. Like I said, I appreciate the consistency in your comments, you voiced similar reservations before and I respect them.

Col.


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HyperMatt
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This was an interesting short, with an interesting premise. Although I was confused at the beginning with the many flashbacks, jumping from the past to the future, it all came together at the moment of realisation at what Patrick intends to do. But it was engaging throughout.
On page 1, shouldn’t KITCHEN – CONTINOUS  be INT. PATRICK’S FLAT – KITCHEN?
I’ve read a lot of debate of the use of continuous in sluglines, some people think it is fine, some think you should be able to indicate if it is a continuous scene from the way that it is written. I personally would not use it.
How do we know some dishes have been at the sink longer than others? I supposed they could be drier or something.
I think there are too many flashbacks and flash-forwards after ‘the accident’ has occurred, but that’s just me.
How do we know some dishes have been there longer than others? I suppose they could be drier or something.
I didn’t realise at first that Patrick was talking in that scene, I thought it was a V.O. or something, but then we have the reveal that he is actually talking to a microphone.

I really like the scene where we realise that Patrick wants to jump in front of the train, and he tries to get some statistics from poor Daniel. That was a very tense build up to the accident, a page-turner.
I like the way you have Linda and the Son at the other end of the platform unaware of Patrick’s presence. That was a nice cinematic device, he is near but far.

Good work... and thinking about it, very appropriately titled.


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Colkurtz8
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Matt

Thanks for the taking the time to check this out.


Quoted from HyperMatt
On page 1, shouldn’t KITCHEN – CONTINOUS  be INT. PATRICK’S FLAT – KITCHEN?


- If a scene transitions to another part of the same location, as in different rooms within a building, I don’t reiterate the building. Fairly common approach from the scripts I’ve read.


Quoted from HyperMatt
I’ve read a lot of debate of the use of continuous in sluglines, some people think it is fine, some think you should be able to indicate if it is a continuous scene from the way that it is written. I personally would not use it.


- Yeah, I see it used a lot while others don’t specify. Personally, it makes sense to me and provides clarity for the reader.


Quoted from HyperMatt
How do we know some dishes have been at the sink longer than others? I supposed they could be drier or something.


- Yeah, or what stage the dirt is at. How encrusted and mouldy they look.


Quoted from HyperMatt
I think there are too many flashbacks and flash-forwards after ‘the accident’ has occurred, but that’s just me.


Fair enough, I appreciate that it can be a challenging read with the jumping timeline but it all fits. This would be easier to follow on screen I reckon. It is also why I make the sluglines as clear as possible.

Thanks again for look at this, glad some of the reveals worked for you.

Col.


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HyperMatt
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No problem.
Didn't realise that it was written a while back.


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Colkurtz8
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Quoted from HyperMatt
Didn't realise that it was written a while back.


All good, I always welcome new thoughts on my scripts.



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Matthew Taylor
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Good morning

I have read this one, and the original - this one is worlds better.

This is already head and shoulders above my ability - so just gonna spit out my thoughts and see if anything is vaguely helpful. I am a little surprised this hasn't been picked up already - have you had any interest in it? - maybe the suicide angle is putting off would-be producers, or maybe it's the train.

The non-linear is well done - I had to reread slugs a few times to get my bearings but I think that's part and parcel of this type of story.

The two supers at the beginning can be cut I think - they don't help with clarity, if anything, they have the opposite effect (on me, anyway) and there are no more supers later on.
I get why you have them in, to appease the readers who don't like/get non-linear stories but I think (especially on-screen) they will detract too much.

Page 5 is where I realized Patrick was the drunk driver - I'm assuming that is the exact time you wanted us to know this info.

bottom of page 9 is where I realized he was going to jump - Again, it seems this was the time you wanted me to find out.

I get the feeling you overcompensate a little bit, to really make sure we get what is going on - and it might work for those who are slow on the uptake, but for the majority of the readers/viewers who are switched on, it might be overkill -


Quoted Text
INT. PATRICK�S FLAT � KITCHEN � NIGHT
The Dictaphone lies on the table.
The hallway LIGHT is switched off...complete darkness...

INT. LINDA�S HOUSE � HALLWAY � MORNING
The Dictaphone lies on the rug...A couple of LETTERS flitter
through the letterbox, rest on top of it


Here for example, we have already seen the dictaphone on the table, and on the rug - we have also seen him talking into it. Just seems slightly overdone.

If it was me (not saying I'm correct or anything) I would change up the order slightly.

I would have the actual jumping in front of the train closer to the end. I would have that right after he talks into the dictaphone "I hope you can find peace". If the jumping comes later, then the reveal of him planning to jump would have to be pushed back later as well.
I would have the scene of Daniel's brief encounter with the mother/son before the jump (More on this scene later)

Patrick, he's such an arsehole lol first for being drunk and killing the kid's dad, and now he jumps in front of a train in front of him? bloody hell, he is messed up.
This next bit I can't seem to put into words, so I hope you understand what I mean - I wanted to see more from Patrick.
He is obviously messed up - the accident, rather than sobering him up, made him spiral even worse into complete despair and depression. In this messed up state, he believes killing himself is the right and noble thing to do to help the family move on - great. but, Patrick feels a bit wooden about the whole thing, I guess I wanted to see more emotion from him at the end.
The only comparison I can think of is Colin Farrell's character Ray from the brilliant In Bruges.

If you haven't seen it - spoiler alert - Ray has accidentally killed a kid, and he obviously struggles to carry this burden throughout the film, but keeps it in, eating him from the inside (Direct comparisons can be made here to Patrick). It boils inside but the only time we see this finally boil over into an emotional outburst is the point when Ray tries to kill himself. I guess, just before the end, I wanted Patrick to have that emotional boil over moment- he's an arsehole, but he is human and overcome with remorse and I wanted to see it, that small glimpse of a redeeming quality.

Daniel - wrong place, wrong time - but he has no other bearing on the story other than just being there to listen. There is a hint of something more, the brief encounter with Linda, checking out her figure, but there is no elaboration (Which makes me think the encounter scene is unnecessary). I was hoping a third angle was going to creep in:

Daniel and Linda catch the same train, same time, every day--
They share pleasantries, Daniel wants to ask her out but Linda can't/scared to move on from the death of her husband--
Patrick, spying on Linda, see's this--
Now the "moving on" comment has two meanings, move on from Patrick being a free man, move on with Daniel--
Daniel comforts Linda and Joseph after the suicide.

Something similar to the above anyway, bring Daniel into the story rather than just being there.

Another thought just popped into my head - I'm just spitballing at this point - there's an issue with Patrick killing himself in front of Jacob, but it can be tied in nicely with my Daniel/Linda relationship idea and add a bit of tension and drama.
Patrick doesn't want Jacob to see, he basically gives Daniel an ultimatum - Try and save me, or go make sure the boy doesn't see - hesitation, the train comes closer. Daniel runs for Jacob and averts his eyes just as Patrick jumps. Now Daniel has been raised up a notch in Linda's eyes, he looked after her son.... or this that a bit over the top?

I did have other thoughts, but I spent so long trying to articulate the above I have forgotten them lol

Overall though I really enjoyed it, you are clearly a talented writer who knows his stuff and if nothing else, I have succeeded in bumping this thread lol

I would be interested in reading a feature of yours in the future, good stuff.

Matt


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2) Fix it
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Colkurtz8
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Matt

Thanks for checking this out.


Quoted from Matthew Taylor
I have read this one, and the original - this one is worlds better.


Yeah, the original draft is pretty straightforward. It was fun to mess around with it and complicate things a bit.


Quoted from Matthew Taylor
I am a little surprised this hasn't been picked up already - have you had any interest in it? - maybe the suicide angle is putting off would-be producers, or maybe it's the train.


It placed in a few contests (Top 10) and I had interest in the original version many moons ago but yeah, those reasons would hinder it perhaps. A clever director and editor could make the train scene work though without it being necessarily a complex and expensive sequence to pull off. i.e. have it happen off screen.


Quoted from Matthew Taylor
The non-linear is well done - I had to reread slugs a few times to get my bearings but I think that's part and parcel of this type of story.


True it can be a taxing read which is why I made the sluglines as informative as possible, to avoid confusion. It would be less of a problem on screen I reckon.


Quoted from Matthew Taylor
The two supers at the beginning can be cut I think - they don't help with clarity, if anything, they have the opposite effect (on me, anyway) and there are no more supers later on.
I get why you have them in, to appease the readers who don't like/get non-linear stories but I think (especially on-screen) they will detract too much.


Really? They were intended to clarify the timelines for the viewer. We start in Patrick’s apartment the night before so that can taken as the present time before we flash-forward in quick succession to two different timelines. I figured this would be disorientating for a viewer as they don’t have the benefit of sluglines like a reader does. I guess by the end of the film people will have gathered what’s going on timeline-wise so they could be removed but it’s hard to tell. It would depend how well it was executed in the production stage. Ultimately it would a decision made in the editing room.


Quoted from Matthew Taylor
Page 5 is where I realized Patrick was the drunk driver - I'm assuming that is the exact time you wanted us to know this info.


It's undeniable by page 6 but perceptive readers will have twigged it earlier I’m sure


Quoted from Matthew Taylor
bottom of page 9 is where I realized he was going to jump - Again, it seems this was the time you wanted me to find out.


Yeah, well, he actually does it on that page so...Before that I hoped you weren’t sure what was going through his mind but again, some will have copped it before it happens.


Quoted from Matthew Taylor
I get the feeling you overcompensate a little bit, to really make sure we get what is going on - and it might work for those who are slow on the uptake, but for the majority of the readers/viewers who are switched on, it might be overkill -

Here for example, we have already seen the dictaphone on the table, and on the rug - we have also seen him talking into it. Just seems slightly overdone.


I wanted to establish the Dictaphone in both scenes, in separate locations. It’s a major component of the reveal, in that he is not talking to someone but rather recording a message for Linda. I didn’t want it to be lost among the back and forths. Maybe I over compensated. For me, it’s the same with naming the characters present in every new scene even if we have followed them one room to another within the same location. It’s just a habit I have.


Quoted from Matthew Taylor
If it was me (not saying I'm correct or anything) I would change up the order slightly.
I would have the actual jumping in front of the train closer to the end. I would have that right after he talks into the dictaphone "I hope you can find peace". If the jumping comes later, then the reveal of him planning to jump would have to be pushed back later as well.

I would have the scene of Daniel's brief encounter with the mother/son before the jump (More on this scene later)


I like the idea of juxtaposing the relative calm and ordinariness of Daniel’s encounter with Linda/Joseph with the pandemonium of the screeching train and shocked onlookers. I did try to push back the actual jump as far as I could but I wanted that coda of the day’s beginning, how it started off as just another day. Of course we already know by then it’s going to become anything but for these people.

Quoted from Matthew Taylor
Patrick, he's such an arsehole lol first for being drunk and killing the kid's dad, and now he jumps in front of a train in front of him? bloody hell, he is messed up.


Yep, it’s a pretty sick thing to do but suicidal people are ill. In Patrick’s warped mindset he thinks he is doing a favour, that this is what they would want. It’s like how families who go to watch executions of their loved one’s killer. Of course he will probably just end up causing more trauma for everybody involved but try telling him that.


Quoted from Matthew Taylor
This next bit I can't seem to put into words, so I hope you understand what I mean - I wanted to see more from Patrick.

He is obviously messed up - the accident, rather than sobering him up, made him spiral even worse into complete despair and depression. In this messed up state, he believes killing himself is the right and noble thing to do to help the family move on - great. but, Patrick feels a bit wooden about the whole thing, I guess I wanted to see more emotion from him at the end.


That was by design, His “banter” with Daniel is indeed very forced and stilted. Overtly cheerful, overtly personal and just all around disconcerting. The fact that he would approach a stranger like that and have this type of conversation already raises red flags and would send most people edging away from him.


Quoted from Matthew Taylor
The only comparison I can think of is Colin Farrell's character Ray from the brilliant In Bruges.

If you haven't seen it - spoiler alert - Ray has accidentally killed a kid, and he obviously struggles to carry this burden throughout the film, but keeps it in, eating him from the inside (Direct comparisons can be made here to Patrick). It boils inside but the only time we see this finally boil over into an emotional outburst is the point when Ray tries to kill himself. I guess, just before the end, I wanted Patrick to have that emotional boil over moment- he's an arsehole, but he is human and overcome with remorse and I wanted to see it, that small glimpse of a redeeming quality.


It’s ok, I’ve seen it a couple of times. Good film. In his own odd and cowardly way Patrick is remorseful. He talks to Daniel as if someone committed the act and he is just relaying the events. Part of that is to step outside himself and try to see it in a sympathetic light. Trying to say that the person served his time, lost everything, got punished for his transgression, etc. Some could say that is even worse but I tried to make it clear that Patrick is really only trying to convince himself and no one else. His final act tells us he failed. He is beyond redemption. His real apology, if you want to be generous about it, is conveyed in his Dictaphone message. It’s up to the audience how much absolution they’re willing to grant him.

The difference between here and In Bruges is that the latter film wants you to sympathise far more with Colin Farrell. Yes, he’s in an immoral trade but killing the kid was a total accident and it happened during the assassination of a paedophile priest (If I remember rightly) Thus, there is plenty of circumstantial impetus to feel sympathy for Colin Farrell. I don’t expect a whole lot of sympathy for Patrick here. Sure his wife cheated on him but his bad decision making and ultimate consequences far outweigh the wrong committed against him.


Quoted from Matthew Taylor
Daniel - wrong place, wrong time - but he has no other bearing on the story other than just being there to listen. There is a hint of something more, the brief encounter with Linda, checking out her figure, but there is no elaboration (Which makes me think the encounter scene is unnecessary). I was hoping a third angle was going to creep in:

Daniel and Linda catch the same train, same time, every day--

They share pleasantries, Daniel wants to ask her out but Linda can't/scared to move on from the death of her husband--

Patrick, spying on Linda, see's this--

Now the "moving on" comment has two meanings, move on from Patrick being a free man, move on with Daniel--

Daniel comforts Linda and Joseph after the suicide.

Something similar to the above anyway, bring Daniel into the story rather than just being there.


True, Daniel is more of a functional character, as you say, wrong place, wrong time. I had him interact with Linda/Joseph to add greater resonance, so he would have some minor stake in hearing their story after having just spoken to them.

Also, the unintentional collision of Joseph’s train on Daniel’s foot foreshadows what’s coming. I like the randomness of that. If they already know each other I would probably have to take that out.

Those are some good suggestions though. There could be some development there. I wouldn’t like to spell out “moving on” theme but it could be hinted that Daniel and Linda have spoken before, that they are acquaintances. Perhaps he flirts, playful, asks for that date she keeps denying him but she deflects it, plays it off as a joke, walks on.


Quoted from Matthew Taylor
Another thought just popped into my head - I'm just spitballing at this point - there's an issue with Patrick killing himself in front of Jacob, but it can be tied in nicely with my Daniel/Linda relationship idea and add a bit of tension and drama.

Patrick doesn't want Jacob to see, he basically gives Daniel an ultimatum - Try and save me, or go make sure the boy doesn't see - hesitation, the train comes closer. Daniel runs for Jacob and averts his eyes just as Patrick jumps. Now Daniel has been raised up a notch in Linda's eyes, he looked after her son.... or this that a bit over the top?


It’s a little much but I like your thinking. You got a writer’s mind. However, if Daniel chooses to shield Joseph rather than stop Patrick (whose right in front of them) from jumping...then what does that say about Daniel as a person? What were his motivations for doing that? To score points with Linda? Also, if Daniel just stops Patrick from jumping than he doesn’t have to worry about shielding Joseph from anything nasty so really he should only react in one way to that ultimatum.


Quoted from Matthew Taylor
I did have other thoughts, but I spent so long trying to articulate the above I have forgotten them lol


All good, you’ve already given me plenty of useful stuff. You got me wrestling with whether to develop Daniel and Linda/Joseph’s interaction into something more substantive of just keep it as a random encounter.


Quoted from Matthew Taylor
Overall though I really enjoyed it, you are clearly a talented writer who knows his stuff and if nothing else, I have succeeded in bumping this thread lol


Cheers


Quoted from Matthew Taylor
I would be interested in reading a feature of yours in the future, good stuff.


Sure, we can do a feature exchange if you want. Let me know.

Thanks again for your detailed comments, much appreciated.

Col.


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Matthew Taylor
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Quoted Text
Yeah, well, he actually does it on that page so..


I meant page 8 lol. When he first asks about his odds, it didn't click before that.

I don't have a feature for a review swap, I enjoy your writing and was just interested to read a feature of yours


Feature

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Two steps to writing a good screenplay:
1) Write a bad one
2) Fix it
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Colkurtz8
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Quoted from Matthew Taylor
I meant page 8 lol. When he first asks about his odds, it didn't click before that.


Ah, right. I see.


Quoted from Matthew Taylor
I don't have a feature for a review swap, I enjoy your writing and was just interested to read a feature of yours


I sent you a PM.


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