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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Unproduced Screenplay Discussion    Short Scripts  ›  Pecking Order Moderators: bert
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  Author    Pecking Order  (currently 198910 views)
Reef Dreamer
Posted: September 4th, 2014, 4:18pm Report to Moderator
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Hi Col

Been meaning to read this for a while.

I haven't read any other comments so apologies for any repeats, but it's best to get a clean read.

P1 As a matter of interest why have the .... After remains . Actually just noticed the a lot . You use this on the first page. 13 times... (Note - and a lot during the script in different aspects)

Tweezers - you have some good names in this

P8 it's business

P16 - Don't want to be picky but I don't think a montage  is required for the wrapping the body. It's just what they do.

P17/18 - quite a lot of time movement here - one to be careful of. Is it all required for clarity?


Ok, finished.

Accomplished work. Nicely handled.

Observations.

I don't want to be harsh, and i like the handling, but it does feel like something we've seen before, down to the silk pyjamas etc . Mind you, I think this is a weakness in me, as the real world of film does the similar things so I underplay the normal, but it was a thought of mine.

Ending - funny but I thought this was too soon. We got the king is dead, and expect Telly to go as well, by the last page, but what about the new master? Where is crispys role? Does he take over Pete or is he in with Philly. For me this needed a final confirmation as there had been a lot of changes.

So, what would I suggest. Well, I would give crispy an extra itch. More than the girl. What's he really want? I'm not sure I got that. Does he want power? Other girls? Respect? Whatever...and how's he gona get it?

'Pecking order' is good in terms of it suggests - since I have chickens - that there is 'one' group, not two. And that it's about where you stand in that group. The parallel with where Crsipy stands, his moment arrives etc. Yet, do we see the final group, no.

I would almost conclude a better title could be 'Cockerels'. Constant fight, a desire for position, a movement of power. Turf war etc

You handle the group banter well and there is a steady hand on the movement between the scenes. I could learn from that.

I think my overriding suggestion would be...surprise us....more....and then it will stand out

All the best






My scripts  HERE

The Elevator Most Belonging To Alice - Semi Final Bluecat, Runner Up Nashville
Inner Journey - Page Awards Finalist - Bluecat semi final
Grieving Spell - winner - London Film Awards.  Third - Honolulu
Ultimate Weapon - Fresh Voices - second place
IMDb link... http://www.imdb.com/name/nm7062725/?ref_=tt_ov_wr
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IamGlenn
Posted: September 5th, 2014, 6:02am Report to Moderator
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Col,

After you read and gave some great thoughts on my work, I thought I'd repay the favour and have a look at one of yours. This was the latest one and the gangster storyline intrigued me. So I gave it a go..

This is some great work. With the amount of characters you used and the few twists at the end it was surprisingly easy to read for me.

The Crispy character was brilliantly done and the payoff at the end involving him was brilliantly executed. He wasn't the only good character but he was obviously the one that stood out most.

I think you said somewhere that you wrote this after watching The Soprano's and that is definitely visibe, which is only a good thing.

The scenes in the backroom were also very well written and I enjoyed them.

Great read and good luck with this. I must check out more of your work.

Glenn


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Colkurtz8
Posted: September 5th, 2014, 10:27am Report to Moderator
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Bill


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
Been meaning to read this for a while.


- Thanks for the taking the time, man.


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
I haven't read any other comments so apologies for any repeats, but it's best to get a clean read.


- Cool, totally agree, I do the same. I don't even read loglines, just the author's name.


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
P1 As a matter of interest why have the .... After remains . Actually just noticed the a lot . You use this on the first page. 13 times... (Note - and a lot during the script in different aspects)


I use them a lot now, its just a style thing. I used to only have them in dialogue for pacing and phrasing but the more I saw people use them in their prose the more they made sense to me so I adopted the technique. Again, I see them as good indicator of pacing, useful for breaking up prose, delineating between separate actions without going on to a new line so they conserve space too. In the specific example you mentioned, its to convey that the camera might hold on Crispy for a moment before Telly notes his nervousness. They mightn't work for some, and may seem overkill to others but they totally make sense to me which is the most important thing I feel and the attitude I take regarding all screenwriting rules. Apply what seems right to you and discard the rest.


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
P8 it's business


- Great catch, cheers. Microsoft Word picked it up an all. I just went and ignored it.


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
P16 - Don't want to be picky but I don't think a montage  is required for the wrapping the body. It's just what they do.


- Fair point, I just wanted to give the impression of a quick burst of images, like a step by step guide of how they go about their dirty work


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
P17/18 - quite a lot of time movement here - one to be careful of. Is it all required for clarity?


- True, there is some back and forth to before the beginning of the script's events and to just before the Pete's assassination to see where Crispy's machinations are at. I've always conceded that the flashbacks are rather conveniently placed to give the twist its full effect in terms of Crispy's real intentions but that's kind of the nature of them. I left a few clues during the script through Crispy's dialogue and attitude which I hoped would make more sense once you understood the true nature of things via the flashbacks, i.e. his jittery attitude in the car with Telly and his talking up of Telly to Marion after the dinner.


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
I don't want to be harsh, and i like the handling, but it does feel like something we've seen before, down to the silk pyjamas etc . Mind you, I think this is a weakness in me, as the real world of film does the similar things so I underplay the normal, but it was a thought of mine.


- Cant argue with that, it very much works within the gangster genre and borrows a lot of its tropes. As I've told others, I binged on The Sopranos a few years back in a couple of weeks and was buzzing to write a gangster piece within that milieu with the relationship of Tony and Christopher from that show being front and center. Hence the similarities in names with Telly and Crispy. There is nothing new here so I hoped a twist would add something to it and give a reason to exist. I thought Tony became a real monster by the end of the series so this was my way of giving him his comeuppance Plus, its just fun to write these characters; their language, bravura, rapport, etc.


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
Ending - funny but I thought this was too soon. We got the king is dead, and expect Telly to go as well, by the last page, but what about the new master? Where is crispys role? Does he take over Pete or is he in with Philly. For me this needed a final confirmation as there had been a lot of changes.


- I didn't think there need to be a clarification about Crispy's role for here on. My assumption was that Telly's crew was more or less wiped out and on the basis of Crispy and Philly's "Except you" exchange I wanted to leave it open, in that Crispy could join Philly's crew, strike out on his own, or just get away altogether as his idealized beliefs in gang ethics are shattered. The main point is that Telly, for all his philosophizing about loyalty, blind or otherwise, got clipped for breaking that very code. And his crew, who he was willing to preserve at any cost, gets destroyed because he couldn't keep his di?k in his pants


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
So, what would I suggest. Well, I would give crispy an extra itch. More than the girl. What's he really want? I'm not sure I got that. Does he want power? Other girls? Respect? Whatever...and how's he gona get it?


Great points. My thinking behind Crispy's motivation is that he worshiped Telly, the guy who took him under his wing, got him off the streets, made him part of the family. He was willing to do anything for him. Even more so since its made clear that the other cronies haven't taken too well to him, see him as a blow in, an outsider. I was aware  it would seem fairly hasty on Crispy's part to double-cross like that so that's why I gave those scenes before Telly enters an icy, tense atmosphere. To Crispy, Telly is the only reason he is with this crew...so when that one link, his mentor, betrays him in worst possible way, his allegiance is severed, he no longer has a reason to stick around. And given how the information is presented to him, via a a rival gang, he grabs the opportunity with both hands.

Also, you learn that Crispy proposed to Marion so he really loved her...and a man with a broken heart is capable of crazy things!


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
'Pecking order' is good in terms of it suggests - since I have chickens - that there is 'one' group, not two. And that it's about where you stand in that group. The parallel with where Crsipy stands, his moment arrives etc. Yet, do we see the final group, no. I would almost conclude a better title could be 'Cockerels'. Constant fight, a desire for position, a movement of power. Turf war etc


- Thanks for the suggestions. I'll definitely consider them because honestly I don't like the title I chose. I asked others who had read it before I posted it for alternatives but never really got anything. I always like a title to work on at least two levels but this is pretty straightforward and simplistic. I particularly like "Cockerals" as its relates to the macho "cock waving" antics of some of the characters. Thanks.


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
I think my overriding suggestion would be...surprise us....more....and then it will stand out


Something to be thinking about cheers. And thanks again for taking the time, Bill, much appreciated.

Point me to anything you want read in exchange.

Col.


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DustinBowcot
Posted: September 5th, 2014, 11:26am Report to Moderator
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Sorry mate, something must have happened as I completely forgot to read this.

There are a few places where I believe the writing could be tightened up but as you're a veteran I won't go there. Instead, I'll concentrate on story.

Pretty straightforward... a dog eat dog story. Told well enough. Nice work.
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Reef Dreamer
Posted: September 5th, 2014, 12:43pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Col

Been thinking about this one and the more I do the more I appreciate the deft handling.

In terms of the more factor, I do wonder whether I over play this and indeed could drift out of the genre.

I also think about theme, or message, too often. But it's something I like to see conveyed. This made me think.

One possibility is to title this 'Broken Promises', or something similar. The aim would be to set up the script as thought Pete has broken a promise to Telly and the guys. We then see telly break an unwritten promise to the lad. Cause and effect playing through.

May be Philly could stress he doesn't break Promises? Does this attract the kid as well.

When the lad kills Telly, the lad could end with a comment that he broke his promise to look after him etc

Ie the theme within is that there are consequences for broken promises and in this gangster world we see that amplified.

Hey, just a thought.


My scripts  HERE

The Elevator Most Belonging To Alice - Semi Final Bluecat, Runner Up Nashville
Inner Journey - Page Awards Finalist - Bluecat semi final
Grieving Spell - winner - London Film Awards.  Third - Honolulu
Ultimate Weapon - Fresh Voices - second place
IMDb link... http://www.imdb.com/name/nm7062725/?ref_=tt_ov_wr
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Colkurtz8
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Glenn


Quoted from IamGlenn
After you read and gave some great thoughts on my work, I thought I'd repay the favour and have a look at one of yours. This was the latest one and the gangster storyline intrigued me. So I gave it a go..

This is some great work. With the amount of characters you used and the few twists at the end it was surprisingly easy to read for me.

The Crispy character was brilliantly done and the payoff at the end involving him was brilliantly executed. He wasn't the only good character but he was obviously the one that stood out most.

I think you said somewhere that you wrote this after watching The Soprano's and that is definitely visibe, which is only a good thing.

The scenes in the backroom were also very well written and I enjoyed them.

Great read and good luck with this. I must check out more of your work.


- Thanks for taking the time and I'm glad it worked for you. The Sopranos were a big influence, perhaps too much but I suppose if you are going to borrow, you should do it from the best.

I've learned in the meantime that "The Dinner" was your first script as I went through some of your replies on its discussion board so extra kudos for you, a very impressive maiden voyage! You can only improve.

Thanks again.


Dustin


Quoted from DustinBowcot
Sorry mate, something must have happened as I completely forgot to read this.


- No hassle, you were never obligated but I appreciate you checking it out.


Quoted from DustinBowcot
There are a few places where I believe the writing could be tightened up but as you're a veteran I won't go there. Instead, I'll concentrate on story.


- I'm far from a veteran, or at least a very bad one, we can always learn. I know the dialogue runs a bit long at times particularly with Telly but that's the kind of character he is, he's a leader, likes to hear his own voice, get up on that soapbox, etc.

Thanks again for taking the time. Cheers.

Col.


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Colkurtz8
Posted: September 5th, 2014, 1:08pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Reef Dreamer
In terms of the more factor, I do wonder whether I over play this and indeed could drift out of the genre.


- Ya it all depends, your comments were totally valid. I just hoped that between the shunning of Crispy by the cronies and the Marion/Telly betrayal there would be enough in that to justify his actions. It is something I've constantly wrestled with regarding this script though.


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
I also think about theme, or message, too often. But it's something I like to see conveyed. This made me think.


- That is something to be careful of alright. Theme and character are what usually come to me first as they are almost always inextricably linked, one informs the other. The story then develops from that, as in how can I illustrate this in a dramatic way.


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
One possibility is to title this 'Broken Promises', or something similar. The aim would be to set up the script as thought Pete has broken a promise to Telly and the guys. We then see telly break an unwritten promise to the lad. Cause and effect playing through.

May be Philly could stress he doesn't break Promises? Does this attract the kid as well.

When the lad kills Telly, the lad could end with a comment that he broke his promise to look after him etc

Ie the theme within is that there are consequences for broken promises and in this gangster world we see that amplified.

Hey, just a thought.


- I liked that suggestion for the title in that it makes you think its referring to one thing but equally applies to the reveal at the end. Although, its not like Telly ever said ""I promise not to fu?k you girlfriend" and then went and did it but I know what you mean.

I also like the idea of Philly saying something to the effect of "I won't screw you like he did" or "I don't break promises" which would galvanize Crispy's trust in him. Although my thinking is that Philly sees himself as doing a favour to Crispy by coming to him first for co-operation rather then just going ahead with the wiping out so he doesn't think he has to convince him or try to persuade him to play ball. Its more like,"Here is a way out, you help us, take it or leave. Either way, we are coming for Telly's gang."

I will also be the first to admit that the plan does work very smoothly, as in movie-plan-smooth Crispy could've easily turned on him and told Telly but we know because of Crispy's place within the crew, his relationship with Telly compared to the cronies and his somewhat unrequited love for Marion that he is going to carry out Philly's wishes.

Thanks for the extra comments.

Col.


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Stumpzian
Posted: September 27th, 2014, 3:38pm Report to Moderator
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This is first rate. Believable, great dialogue, wonderful name choices. My favorite -- Tweezers.



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Stumpzian
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Since  my previous post, I've been reading the other comments and your responses. Two things I want to say (as a newcomer):
1. I'm impressed with the depth of the comments. It shows me that a really good script will generate a lot of discussion.
2. I'm impressed by how well you know your characters.

P.S. There was some back and forth about the title, and Reef Dreamer mentioned having chickens (I do, too). Anyway, this got me thinking about KFC; that is, you are known as the "colonel" and you have a character named Crispy -- as in Extra Crispy?



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Colkurtz8
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Henry

Thank you for checking this out and giving it a bump. Glad you liked it and the names. I had a bit of fun with them on this one.

Ha, I like your title idea although its probably too Crispy orientated (as in the character, not the texture ) Yeah, he is the protagonist but its not all about him.

Also, I'd prefer if you didn't equate my username with that vomit inducing fast food joint. Different colonel entirely, though probably just as evil when its all said and done.

Thanks again.

Col.


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Stumpzian
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I didn't mean to make it sound like a title suggestion. Just a bit of observational frivolity on my part. (And one could never mistake Kurtz for that other colonel.) Cheers.



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CoopBazinga
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The first thought I had after reading this was that I’ve read or watched this story a million times before, and although that number isn’t correct – the fact remains that this is overall a tired story that doesn’t add much to an already well trodden genre, or deliver any surprises that could have given the story some edge.

In fact, by the end I was rather disappointed in the route this story took, as it didn’t deliver the character piece I guess I expected. There was a potential good relationship between mentor and apprentice that never really got going so it made the conclusion a little flat.

It dwindled too much for me on other characters like Fergus and the crew when it should have concentrated more on Crispy and his relationship with Telly and Marion. By strengthening this relationship, it would have made the ending stronger, and possibly added some weight to Crispy’s decision to kill Telly which for me was rather weak. Crispy didn’t seem to flinch in pulling off this move when it should have weighed on him more. Yes, Telly has betrayed him, but he’s also the man Crispy respects more than anyone.

On the other hand, his lack of hesitation could have been more to do with greed and power, this kid wants to be top boss, but this personality trait was never hinted at throughout so I don’t believe that’s his reasoning.

Back to straight old revenge then, which is fine, but it kinda hurts the story when we only find out that out with a few pages to go. I would have like to see Crispy find out the revelation earlier, which he does to be fair, but the non-linear story telling means we don’t know this until near the end which I thought hurt the story. I would like to see how this changed Crispy and his loyalty to Telly – did he question what he did? Maybe contemplated forgiving him? What was his relationship with Marion like? He asked her to marry him, so he loved her, but was they high school sweethearts or a fling that turned serious? What I’m saying is – who’s more important in Crispy’s life? That’s a question he must ask himself as it reflects in his decision. Maybe both weren’t that important as he killed one and had the other killed. Maybe he thought about this long and hard but we’ll never know because we didn’t see him go through this.

I was talking about power before and this being Crispy’s reasoning, but I have no doubt it must be Telly’s. Why else would he do this? I like this angle and would like to see his dilemma also, especially with Marion – he sleeps with her because he can – but does he question this as his relationship with Crispy develops? As he gets closer to the kid, does he become aware that he doesn’t want to continue with Marion as this will only hurt Crispy, or he possibly has feelings for Marion? Again, it’s left a little unanswered as we spent more time with Fergus and the boys playing poker.

I think one of the reasons for this is because the story spends too much time on the whole “taking down Pete” side plot which is important but needs to be more in the background for the Telly/Crispy relationship to flourish. Also, some of the dialogue at this junction could be looked at – I mean, Telly telling the boys that Pete is their “founder and leader since time began” was just weird.  The jealous angle was also a little off – yeah, guys like this can be jealous, but to say it made these guys feel like they should be in Glee rather than the Sopranos. Maybe they don’t like the trust Telly has in this outsider as he’s the newest to the crew. Basically they don’t trust him rather than being jealous of his relationship with Telly. Just a thought.

I was also a little puzzled about where and when this was all taking place – at one point I thought this was set in the 1920’s because the guys were transporting cigarettes which is entirely possibly nowadays of course – it just immediately sent me back to a time of prohibition which I understand was alcohol but that’s the image it craved up. No big deal, but where are we? I guess it’s not important but the location of “off licence” immediately took me to London but our guys are dropping bodies into a lake from a cliff rather than the Thames. All little things that came to mind while reading – I think you could be clearer and possibly make the location a character of its own which could help the atmosphere of this tale.

Overall, these are just observations and ideas but I do understand this is a short and you can’t get every little detail in. There is more than enough story here for a feature, but like I said before, does it add much to the genre for it to be worth it?

Nothing much to complain in terms of writing, a few little niggles like the lack of “the” or “and” but I would put that down to preference on my part. Didn’t understand the way you used some of the ellipses in your action either, but again – preference. I spotted one typo on page 9 – slit should be split and there was a part near the end with Marion that should have been an EXT scene.

In saying all this, I though the story had a good pace and was entertaining enough for me to stick with it. I just thought that it could have been stronger, by which I mean the characters and their relationships being better explored. In doing this, I think this would not only be entertaining but also deliver a good character driven piece.

Best of luck with it.
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LeeOConnor
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Hi Howard,

From one Irish man to another well done.
I think you hit the nail on the head with this one, it has a very modern feel of a Mafia family. The youngsters not showing respect to the rules and old timers etc, nice one.
Well written with good visuals and character descriptions.
The story flowed well and kept me reading on.

Could there be something more at the end? Personally I don't think so, you have gone the subtle route of Mafia stories, not over doing it with the killings, deals and operations that take place, everything is planned to perfection by these particular organisations, so we'll done for not ruining it with action packed mainstream crap.



Good luck with this

Lee
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Colkurtz8
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Coop

First off thanks for your detailed comments, much appreciated. I know my responses are as long as a wet weekend so feel free to skim or ignore. I believe if someone has taken the time to read and review my script so extensively the least I can do is treat them with mutual regard. But please, don't feel obligated.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
The first thought I had after reading this was that I’ve read or watched this story a million times before, and although that number isn’t correct – the fact remains that this is overall a tired story that doesn’t add much to an already well trodden genre, or deliver any surprises that could have given the story some edge.


- Yeah it’s a genre piece, you would've seen this before for sure. Like most of us I love gangster films but had never really written a gangster script before. This was my attempt. I don’t think I could ever write a feature because it’s such a well worn genre, impossible not to fall into cliché. So a short satisfied the urge and it was fun to write. It was something I hoped would entertain with the twist maybe catching people by surprise…but not everyone it seems


Quoted from CoopBazinga
In fact, by the end I was rather disappointed in the route this story took, as it didn’t deliver the character piece I guess I expected. There was a potential good relationship between mentor and apprentice that never really got going so it made the conclusion a little flat.


- Sorry to hear that. I tried to include as much back and forth (well really it’s one way with Telly, the mentor, doing all the talking) between the two leads as well as having a story working around that, driving it, providing the motivations. Just so it would be more than a mere two hander while keeping it under a reasonable page length. I wanted to convey through Telly and Crispy’s interactions their dynamic, to establish the relationships without having it outstay its welcome. Crispy’s apparent obedience and general laconic personality in those scenes compared to Telly’s talkativeness was to (hopefully) make the twist more surprising and provoke the theme of loyalty, misplaced or otherwise.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
It dwindled too much for me on other characters like Fergus and the crew when it should have concentrated more on Crispy and his relationship with Telly and Marion. By strengthening this relationship, it would have made the ending stronger, and possibly added some weight to Crispy’s decision to kill Telly which for me was rather weak.


- Fair point but the reason why I showed Crispy interact with the other members of the crew was to reinforce the notion that he hasn't really been accepted by them. There is meant to be an underlying tension in those scenes, they’re always looking to put him in his place (especially Fergus) they treat him with derision, suspicion, he's still an outsider in their eyes. (You find out later that Telly caught him jacking his car's sat nav) Telly is the only one who seems to have faith in him (is this genuine? does he seem him as a possible heir or is it guilt over him fu?king his girlfriend? I leave open for interpretation) Telly is his "in" with this crew, the one who supports him, looks out for him...so when he finds out he has betrayed him in the worst possible manner (thus totally undercutting his ramblings about loyalty) he realises that his connections to this crew have been irrevocably severed, there is nothing keeping him loyal anymore and this is enough to make him readily accept Philly's proposal. Also, during Marion and Telly’s post sex scene, we find out that Crispy had proposed to her which indicates how much he felt for her.

I was well aware of making the motivations strong enough for Crispy to consider a doublecross because it is a big decision for him to make. I hoped this revelation and the crew politics would be enough.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
Crispy didn’t seem to flinch in pulling off this move when it should have weighed on him more. Yes, Telly has betrayed him, but he’s also the man Crispy respects more than anyone./quote]

- Well, I thought I made it pretty clear in Crispy’s demeanour, both in Telly’s car when he’s furtively looking in his wing mirror and exhibiting uneasy body language  and when he’s standing behind him about to pull the trigger that he’s apprehensive, anxious. I hoped this would further mislead the reader into thinking he’s still recovering from taking out Pete, which he is, put he’s also anticipating the second murder he’s gonna hafta commit that night...which we don’t know yet.

[quote=CoopBazinga]On the other hand, his lack of hesitation could have been more to do with greed and power, this kid wants to be top boss, but this personality trait was never hinted at throughout so I don’t believe that’s his reasoning. .


- True, this is one thing we can agree on I never saw Crispy as an attain-power-at-all-costs kind of guy but more for the reasons I’ve just stated above.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
Back to straight old revenge then, which is fine, but it kinda hurts the story when we only find out that out with a few pages to go. I would have like to see Crispy find out the revelation earlier, which he does to be fair, but the non-linear story telling means we don’t know this until near the end which I thought hurt the story.


- I can concede that the flashbacks and the true nature of events come thick and fast at the end, it can be a little disorientating, hard to follow but I reckon it would work much more fluidly on screen. I just tried to make it as concise and readable on the page. Also, the reason why I left the revelation till the end was for the good old fashioned finish with a flourish conclusion, the dramatic finale, etc.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
I would like to see how this changed Crispy and his loyalty to Telly – did he question what he did? Maybe contemplated forgiving him? What was his relationship with Marion like? He asked her to marry him, so he loved her, but was they high school sweethearts or a fling that turned serious? What I’m saying is – who’s more important in Crispy’s life? That’s a question he must ask himself as it reflects in his decision. Maybe both weren’t that important as he killed one and had the other killed. Maybe he thought about this long and hard but we’ll never know because we didn’t see him go through this.


- Good points, and as you know I tried to show the state of Marion and Crispy’s relationship through us finding out that Marion turned down his proposal. Its perhaps slightly unrequited, one loving the other more. Was it always like this? Is it because of Telly? I left this somewhat open but I attempted to give the impression that Marion was into Telly more than he was into her in their scenes together. Telly even asks her why did she say no and she just laughs it off. There are subtle signals given but nothing definite, this was intentional to keep it aloof, undefined. But we do know that Crispy loved her.

Both were very important to him, probably the two most important people in his life, so the fact that they both betrayed him together hurts all the more, thus providing adequate fuel for revenge.

You bring up a good point about how this knowledge of finding out his missus and boss were carrying on affected him. I dropped in subtle hints that only really come apparent once you know the twist, at least I hope they do. In his scenes with the crew members Crispy does exude a certain guarded confidence, he holds his nerve, doesn’t take the bait while hitting Fergus back with a sly  comeback because he knows he’ll have the last laugh. Also, in the car scene with Marion when he is talking up Telly, you must remember that this is spoken with the knowledge of Telly’s betrayal. This is why he layers on the compliments, makes special mention of his desire to impress him, to be given the chance to prove his worth. My thinking is that Crispy is saying this to not only throw off any notion Marion might have that Crispy knows of their affair but also in the hops that she might relay these sentiments to Telly thus get him the gig of taking out the boss, to gain favour. Because by now Crispy knows Pete is going to get whacked so what better way to get taken along then to suck up to Telly, massage his ego.

Again because it is a short there is only so much depth you can go into with establishing character relationships. That is why I tried to streamline it like this, find an economical way of conveying the point without belabouring the script’s pace. Clearly that didn’t work for you (and others) and that’s cool.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
I was talking about power before and this being Crispy’s reasoning, but I have no doubt it must be Telly’s. Why else would he do this? I like this angle and would like to see his dilemma also, especially with Marion – he sleeps with her because he can – but does he question this as his relationship with Crispy develops? As he gets closer to the kid, does he become aware that he doesn’t want to continue with Marion as this will only hurt Crispy, or he possibly has feelings for Marion? Again, it’s left a little unanswered as we spent more time with Fergus and the boys playing poker.


- Telly would have met Crispy before meeting Marion and their bond has been strengthening before the script’s events, culminating in Telly entrusting him with such an important hit. This is also what pisses off the other crew members, they feel slighted, stepped over. In terms of Telly and Marion’s relationship, during their post sex scene, there is an element of Marion being more into him then the other way around. Which is the opposite of Marion and Crispy’s relationship. As I already mentioned this is partially addressed when Telly doesn’t seem too affected or invested in Marion’s admission of Crispy’s wedding proposal. He’s noticeably cold and standoffish, indifferent. When he does ask why she said no to the proposal she plays a coy mind game of her own by deflecting the question with an ambivalent grin.

Again, this feeds into the idea of Telly being the alpha male, the king of the hill, the one in control.  And it’s this hubris that leads to his downfall. Like you say, he’s doing it because he can, a total double standard coming from the guy espousing loyalty.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
I think one of the reasons for this is because the story spends too much time on the whole “taking down Pete” side plot which is important but needs to be more in the background for the Telly/Crispy relationship to flourish. Also, some of the dialogue at this junction could be looked at – I mean, Telly telling the boys that Pete is their “founder and leader since time began” was just weird.


- Telly’s dialogue is a little long winded but this is the kind of character he is, he’s the one in charge, the one leading this mutiny so he needs to persuade his troops. I didn’t make him verbose out of indulgence but more as a character trait. He must acknowledge Pete’s role in their crew’s formation, appreciate what he’s done while getting the point across that’s it’s time for the old man to move aside…something he’s not prepared to do voluntarily so action must be taken. Yes, Telly is on his soapbox here but I felt that was true to his role within the story.

Maybe I spent too much time on that, I guess it comes down to what I felt was necessary to make it believable that these events would transpire in the way they do i.e. the intercepted cigarette load, the meeting of opposing crews, Telly’s “pitch” to his cronies.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
The jealous angle was also a little off – yeah, guys like this can be jealous, but to say it made these guys feel like they should be in Glee rather than the Sopranos. Maybe they don’t like the trust Telly has in this outsider as he’s the newest to the crew. Basically they don’t trust him rather than being jealous of his relationship with Telly. Just a thought.


- I have to disagree. If Soprano’s thought us anything, it’s how petulant and catty gangsters can be. One-upmanship is a big part of that dynamic, always wanting to please the top dog, ascend the ranks. I drew a lot of parallels between Fergus and Paulie from the Sopranos who was always up Tony’s hole, his lapdog, ready to stick up for him wherever possible. That relationship did deteriorate over the course of the show but this is a short so I simply couldn’t even begin to consider working in that particular arc.

Crispy is a newcomer, a nobody, he’s young and Telly has taken a shine to him. So much so that he’s been given the biggest responsibility possible of taking out the Don. I think it’s understandable that there is going to be some jealousy, some spite on the part of the cronies, who’ve paid their dues, done their time. Again, this feeds into the theme of loyalty which you correctly pointed out, isn’t exactly anything new in the gangster genre.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
I was also a little puzzled about where and when this was all taking place – at one point I thought this was set in the 1920’s because the guys were transporting cigarettes which is entirely possibly nowadays of course – it just immediately sent me back to a time of prohibition which I understand was alcohol but that’s the image it craved up.


- Ha, I can see how you got that impression but yeah it’s well possible today too. In fact with the ever increasing price of cigarettes, it’s becoming more common again…er, so I’ve heard…

CONT'D...


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Quoted from CoopBazinga
No big deal, but where are we? I guess it’s not important but the location of “off licence” immediately took me to London but our guys are dropping bodies into a lake from a cliff rather than the Thames. All little things that came to mind while reading – I think you could be clearer and possibly make the location a character of its own which could help the atmosphere of this tale.


- A few have mentioned this and it’s a valid point. I try to keep my scripts as geographically neutral as possible, unless it informs the story. Yes, gangster films are automatically linked to America and conjure up images of Joe Pesci saying the “fu?k” every four words but I think this story could happen anywhere, I intentionally kept it small and its location non-specific.

I’m Irish and we call liquor stores “off licences” too, always have as far as I can remember.

It’s true that having it set in a recognizable location can add a character, I totally subscribe to that belief but my logic behind keeping my scripts away from that trapping is for producibility reasons. Yes, I know this isn’t exactly the most low budget 19 pager ever but having it wedded to a particular location wouldn’t exactly help matters in that regard either.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
Overall, these are just observations and ideas but I do understand this is a short and you can’t get every little detail in. There is more than enough story here for a feature, but like I said before, does it add much to the genre for it to be worth it?


- Of course and they are greatly appreciated and taken on board, I owe you one big time for providing such thoughtful notes. Is there enough here for a feature? I don’t think so for the very reason you give, it is too generic and principally hinges on that final reveal. That’s why I kept it as a short, a self contained story. I have no desire to expand it.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
Nothing much to complain in terms of writing, a few little niggles like the lack of “the” or “and” but I would put that down to preference on my part. Didn’t understand the way you used some of the ellipses in your action either, but again – preference


- Yeah, I stay away from those in the prose when I can, particularly “and”. To me a comma adds punch and flow, while shortening the read, all good attributes in my opinion. I like it when I see them in other scripts so I use them in my own. Same with the ellipses, great for phrasing and breaking up the action without going to a new line. Like you say, it’s just preference, whatever works for you.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
I spotted one typo on page 9 – slit should be split and there was a part near the end with Marion that should have been an EXT scene.


- Great catches on both counts, thank you, sir.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
In saying all this, I though the story had a good pace and was entertaining enough for me to stick with it. I just thought that it could have been stronger, by which I mean the characters and their relationships being better explored. In doing this, I think this would not only be entertaining but also deliver a good character driven piece.


- Cool, I respect your opinion and completely see where you’re coming from. Sorry it didn’t work for you but at least I got some helpful notes out of it so I had my fun. Nah, only joking, thanks again for taking the time and please direct me to anything of yours you want read on or off the boards, only glad to return the favour.

Col.


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