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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Unproduced Screenplay Discussion    Short Scripts  ›  Pecking Order Moderators: bert
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  Author    Pecking Order  (currently 198912 views)
Colkurtz8
Posted: October 6th, 2014, 1:16pm Report to Moderator
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Lee

Thanks for checking this out, man, and yes, always good to see another Celt on the boards. Not enough of us around on here unfortunately, at least that I know of.


Quoted from LeeOConnor
Could there be something more at the end? Personally I don't think so, you have gone the subtle route of Mafia stories, not over doing it with the killings, deals and operations that take place, everything is planned to perfection by these particular organisations, so we'll done for not ruining it with action packed mainstream cr**


- Yeah, as I've admitted in other posts that the double-cross does come off rather too well, too smoothly, "movie-well" I like to call it but not "Now You See Me-well" at least I tried to keep it somewhat plausible that the pieces would fit if things went according to plan.

I actually do have another gangster type piece written which is much more character driven then this with less of the generic tropes you mention that feature more prominently here.

Glad you got some enjoyment out of it anyway, cheers.

Col.


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CoopBazinga
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Quoted from Colkurtz8
It was something I hoped would entertain with the twist maybe catching people by surprise…but not everyone it seems


And it was entertaining so you should be pleased with that aspect. I personally didn’t think it was a twist ending, hence not being caught by surprise. I can’t think of many gangster flicks that do end with a twist – more like the rise and downfall of a person or empire as is case here in a way.


Quoted from Colkurtz8
- Sorry to hear that. I tried to include as much back and forth (well really it’s one way with Telly, the mentor, doing all the talking) between the two leads as well as having a story working around that, driving it, providing the motivations. Just so it would be more than a mere two hander while keeping it under a reasonable page length. I wanted to convey through Telly and Crispy’s interactions their dynamic, to establish the relationships without having it outstay its welcome. Crispy’s apparent obedience and general laconic personality in those scenes compared to Telly’s talkativeness was to (hopefully) make the twist more surprising and provoke the theme of loyalty, misplaced or otherwise.


That’s the problems with shorts I guess as you’re trying to tie in so many story aspects into a smaller page length. You say a story around that key relationship and I understand that but while it does drive the story, I don’t think it really provides the motivation for Crispy at all when it comes to its conclusion. I would also argue that it never motivated Telly into sleeping with Marion which is the key event here – not Pete’s takedown or the feud with Philly – it’s the betrayal and that is the story.

I actually thought Crispy’s laconic personality was more to do with the fact that he just killed a man for the first time – you meant their scene in the car right?


Quoted from Colkurtz8
Fair point but the reason why I showed Crispy interact with the other members of the crew was to reinforce the notion that he hasn't really been accepted by them. There is meant to be an underlying tension in those scenes, they’re always looking to put him in his place (especially Fergus) they treat him with derision, suspicion, he's still an outsider in their eyes.


And it worked for what it’s worth – I thought just one scene would have been enough so there would be more room to concentrate on the key relationship. The two main scenes in the back office could have easily been tied together but that’s just my opinion. I also thought it was a much bigger crew after the meeting at the warehouse so I initially didn’t think Crispy would care what these three thought, they’re just a small cog in a bigger wheel. I also want to say that I never got the impression that they were suspicious of Cripsy, and maybe that is something you could heighten as it works rather well with what Crispy is about to pull off.


Quoted from Colkurtz8
Telly is his "in" with this crew, the one who supports him, looks out for him...so when he finds out he has betrayed him in the worst possible manner (thus totally undercutting his ramblings about loyalty) he realises that his connections to this crew have been irrevocably severed, there is nothing keeping him loyal anymore and this is enough to make him readily accept Philly's proposal. Also, during Marion and Telly’s post sex scene, we find out that Crispy had proposed to her which indicates how much he felt for her.


I wonder if rather than working with Philly, that telling Pete about what’s coming would have hurt Telly more? Not only does he fail, as in he doesn’t become the king he desired, but he finds out Crispy’s betrayal. This also saves Crispy from killing Pete which he doesn’t have to do – this was another reason why I questioned his greed motivation because killing Pete only serves in helping Philly – Pete had nothing to do with Telly and Marion’s relationship.


Quoted from Colkurtz8
- I can concede that the flashbacks and the true nature of events come thick and fast at the end, it can be a little disorientating, hard to follow but I reckon it would work much more fluidly on screen. I just tried to make it as concise and readable on the page. Also, the reason why I left the revelation till the end was for the good old fashioned finish with a flourish conclusion, the dramatic finale, etc.


You’re probably right – some things definitely work better on screen than they do on paper. I do understand your reasoning, really I do, but how good would it have been if we knew that Crispy had known for longer and then he comes to that moment at the end – a decision he’s been agonizing about. He’s got the gun aimed at Telly, he hesitates – what will his decision be… and then fade to black. Damn, a lot of readers would hate you of course!

No, I just thought there would be a moment of pause, reflection… something. He wasn’t shooting a pesky cat that’s kept him all night, but his mentor, friend, someone he (possibly) loves? Not in a gay way of course, not that there’s anything wrong with that.


Quoted from Colkurtz8
Both were very important to him, probably the two most important people in his life, so the fact that they both betrayed him together hurts all the more, thus providing adequate fuel for revenge.


Revenge is sweet but what does he gain at the end of it all? I wonder if he considered keeping Marion alive? Did he love her enough to never tell her that he know about the affair – Telly’s dead, and they can be together happy, or was he scared that he would never be able to tame her? See this is one of my problems, I over think things – you could never show all this in a short, but even adding a little more depth to Crispy, and show a little bit more of his struggle after the revelation would help.


Quoted from Colkurtz8
You bring up a good point about how this knowledge of finding out his missus and boss were carrying on affected him. I dropped in subtle hints that only really come apparent once you know the twist, at least I hope they do. In his scenes with the crew members Crispy does exude a certain guarded confidence, he holds his nerve, doesn’t take the bait while hitting Fergus back with a sly  comeback because he knows he’ll have the last laugh. Also, in the car scene with Marion when he is talking up Telly, you must remember that this is spoken with the knowledge of Telly’s betrayal. This is why he layers on the compliments, makes special mention of his desire to impress him, to be given the chance to prove his worth. My thinking is that Crispy is saying this to not only throw off any notion Marion might have that Crispy knows of their affair but also in the hops that she might relay these sentiments to Telly thus get him the gig of taking out the boss, to gain favour. Because by now Crispy knows Pete is going to get whacked so what better way to get taken along then to suck up to Telly, massage his ego.

Again because it is a short there is only so much depth you can go into with establishing character relationships. That is why I tried to streamline it like this, find an economical way of conveying the point without belabouring the script’s pace. Clearly that didn’t work for you (and others) and that’s cool.


Does Crispy have the last laugh? Doing what he does can also be the downfall of a man – hence, why I bring up Marion’s death and what he accomplishes with this act. Sometimes the best revenge can be to be “the better man” but I obviously understand that such a thing would never work in such a story.

I think you have good faith in your readers – most will never pick up on such things as you’ve explained. I do think that you’ve done an excellent job now you’ve explained it but some of that was lost on me. When it concluded, I had forgotten about some of these exchanges which may make me a lazy reader, but also because I was on a different mindset. It’s like the scene in the car at the beginning and end – I thought Crispy was on edge because he just killed a man for the first time, not because what he was about to do. Like you said before, some things will work much better on screen and I think this is another one of those cases possibly.


Quoted from Colkurtz8
Telly’s dialogue is a little long winded but this is the kind of character he is, he’s the one in charge, the one leading this mutiny so he needs to persuade his troops. I didn’t make him verbose out of indulgence but more as a character trait. He must acknowledge Pete’s role in their crew’s formation, appreciate what he’s done while getting the point across that’s it’s time for the old man to move aside…something he’s not prepared to do voluntarily so action must be taken. Yes, Telly is on his soapbox here but I felt that was true to his role within the story.

Maybe I spent too much time on that, I guess it comes down to what I felt was necessary to make it believable that these events would transpire in the way they do i.e. the intercepted cigarette load, the meeting of opposing crews, Telly’s “pitch” to his cronies.


I don’t mind that’s it long winded – in fact, I think this works as he tries to show his power over his troops. It was more with some of the wording like “the beginning of time” and “founder” these words just struck me as odd – there was a few others that I can’t remember but they stuck out to me. He didn’t seem the character to be saying such words. It’s like one of those teenage kids that hang out around shops at night said “that’s ghastly” instead of “that’s rank” It wouldn’t sound right. On the other hand, I’m not a gangster, nor have I ever affiliated with one so how would I know how they talk – all like Joe Pesci, right?


Quoted from Colkurtz8
- I have to disagree. If Soprano’s thought us anything, it’s how petulant and catty gangsters can be.


That’s fair enough and of course gangsters are human beings and suffer the same emotions – it just seemed like an odd choice of word for these types of guys. Please don’t disagree with me again – ever!


Quoted from Colkurtz8
- Ha, I can see how you got that impression but yeah it’s well possible today too. In fact with the ever increasing price of cigarettes, it’s becoming more common again…er, so I’ve heard…


At least make them E-Cigs! It would work as well because I think they’re banned in some countries – I remember you couldn’t buy them in Australia originally, that’s probably changed now.


Quoted from Colkurtz8
I’m Irish and we call liquor stores “off licences” too, always have as far as I can remember.


I’ve never been to Ireland – we call them bottle shops or bottle-O’s over here in Oz.


Quoted from Colkurtz8
Yeah, I stay away from those in the prose when I can, particularly “and”. To me a comma adds punch and flow, while shortening the read, all good attributes in my opinion. I like it when I see them in other scripts so I use them in my own. Same with the ellipses, great for phrasing and breaking up the action without going to a new line. Like you say, it’s just preference, whatever works for you.


Exactly this – we all have our own technique and it won’t work for some readers but that doesn’t make them wrong. Please calm down on your ellipses though.


Quoted from Colkurtz8
Cool, I respect your opinion.


Thanks, not many do… ask the missus.


Quoted from Colkurtz8
Sorry it didn’t work for you but at least I got some helpful notes out of it so I had my fun. Nah, only joking, thanks again for taking the time and please direct me to anything of yours you want read on or off the boards, only glad to return the favour.


No problem whatsoever, hopefully I was of some help. It’s not that it didn’t work for me, I guess I would have just tackled it differently but I want to repeat that it was entertaining and I enjoyed moments of your story – I just think it could be stronger than it is.

Again, best of luck with it and sorry for rambling on.
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Colkurtz8
Posted: October 8th, 2014, 3:15pm Report to Moderator
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Coop

Thank you for your further comments.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
I personally didn’t think it was a twist ending, hence not being caught by surprise. I can’t think of many gangster flicks that do end with a twist – more like the rise and downfall of a person or empire as is case here in a way.


- True, most gangster films are a rise and fall which is why I tried to do something a little different here. That up and down does occur but it’s shared between Crispy's rise (of sorts) and Telly's demise.

Are you saying you anticipated Crispy's collusion with Philly and their orchestration of the cigarette knock off to undermine Pete's leadership thus speed up Telly's decision to take him out coming, (phew…deep breath) before it happened on the page?


Quoted from CoopBazinga
You say a story around that key relationship and I understand that but while it does drive the story, I don’t think it really provides the motivation for Crispy at all when it comes to its conclusion.


- Naturally I have to disagree since I framed the story that way by showing the friction between Crispy with the other gang members in comparison to his closeness to Telly which is ripped apart when he finds out about him screwing his girlfriend. And that's fine, it’s your opinion.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
I would also argue that it never motivated Telly into sleeping with Marion which is the key event here – not Pete’s takedown or the feud with Philly – it’s the betrayal and that is the story.


- Forgive me but I'm a little confused by this comment. It reads like you're questioning Telly's motivations for sleeping with Marion. Or are you talking about Crispy's reasoning to double-cross?


Quoted from CoopBazinga
I actually thought Crispy’s laconic personality was more to do with the fact that he just killed a man for the first time – you meant their scene in the car right?


- Yeah the car scene which bookends the script. Yes, his fidgety, nervous attitude is in part due to the fact that he has just killed Pete. Telly's opening dialogue suggests he has "earned his stripes" and in the subsequent scene we get clarification of what he means. At that point, it’s pretty clear why Crispy is shaken up but I liked the idea of, by the end, finding out there is a more pressing burden on his mind that we, or Telly, aren't aware of.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
And it worked for what it’s worth – I thought just one scene would have been enough so there would be more room to concentrate on the key relationship. The two main scenes in the back office could have easily been tied together but that’s just my opinion.


- Good point in that those scenes could be combined, you're not that first to say that. My reasoning behind having two was that the first would be Telly proposing they whack Philly while in the second he tells them when it’s going to happen. I thought by showing two scenes that begin without Telly present, instead showing their treatment of Crispy, and how that switches as soon as Telly enters, that change of atmosphere when they all shut up and let the capo do the talking, would be a good way to illustrate the crew’s dynamic. If a gun were put to my head to reduce this to below a certain page count then yeah, those scenes would be the first to be scrutinized for edits.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
I also thought it was a much bigger crew after the meeting at the warehouse so I initially didn’t think Crispy would care what these three thought, they’re just a small cog in a bigger wheel.


- Yeah, they are a bigger outfit which I implied in the warehouse meeting but I wouldn't be able to show them all so I just focused on the select few close to Telly. Again, think The Sopranos where we only get to know a few members intimately.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
I also want to say that I never got the impression that they were suspicious of Cripsy, and maybe that is something you could heighten as it works rather well with what Crispy is about to pull off.


- When I said suspicious I meant more of a “who the fu?k does this guy think he is” kind of attitude towards him but you’re right it could be something to heighten. Except for his retorts to Fergus's slagging I played Crispy relatively benign and nonthreatening around them, the newbie, so they (or the reader) would never suspect him of plotting against the crew.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
I wonder if rather than working with Philly, that telling Pete about what’s coming would have hurt Telly more? Not only does he fail, as in he doesn’t become the king he desired, but he finds out Crispy’s betrayal.


- Good suggestion although what could Pete do to hurt Telly who, by now, is really in control of the crew? Crispy would be signing his own death warrant if he aligned himself with Pete.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
This also saves Crispy from killing Pete which he doesn’t have to do – this was another reason why I questioned his greed motivation because killing Pete only serves in helping Philly – Pete had nothing to do with Telly and Marion’s relationship.


- Because that’s part of the Philly and Crispy’s deal. Philly handles the underlings while Crispy, because of his closeness to Telly and having being selected to do the Pete hit, is in a unique position to take out the two top members. It’s co-ordinated and simultaneous wiping out of the Telly’s crew’s key figures so they’ll have no chance to retaliate. Think Michael Corleone’s maneuvering at the end of The Godfather.

Some people have asked if Crispy will be assimilated into Philly’s crew and given a good position after his cooperation but I’m not so sure, I left that open. I could very well see him leaving that life altogether which he can do since Telly’s crew is obliterated so it’s not like anyone will be after him. His romanticized notions of gang loyalty/ethics/code etc have been shattered now, exposed to be all bullsh?t after what has gone down.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
but how good would it have been if we knew that Crispy had known for longer and then he comes to that moment at the end – a decision he’s been agonizing about. He’s got the gun aimed at Telly, he hesitates – what will his decision be… and then fade to black. Damn, a lot of readers would hate you of course!

No, I just thought there would be a moment of pause, reflection… something. He wasn’t shooting a pesky cat that’s kept him all night, but his mentor, friend, someone he (possibly) loves? Not in a gay way of course, not that there’s anything wrong with that.


- Ha, yeah, a pure Christopher Nolan party trick! Nah, I hear ya, there could be a moment’s hesitation alright but you must remember that back at their hangout, serious plans have already been initiated, he can’t really back out now.

- I hoped that by the end the reader would want to see Telly get taken out. He blabbers on about loyalty and all that throughout the script and his allegiance to the outfit when in fact he’s a cheating, disloyal scumbag himself, a pure hypocrite. I‘ve said it in another post that as much as I loved the character of Tony Soprano he became a monster by the end of it, in my opinion anyway. I could still be engaged with him and see him as one of drama’s greatest incarnations but what a cu?t! And since his uppunvce never came in that show this was my way of dishing it out to him


Quoted from CoopBazinga
Revenge is sweet but what does he gain at the end of it all? I wonder if he considered keeping Marion alive? Did he love her enough to never tell her that he know about the affair – Telly’s dead, and they can be together happy, or was he scared that he would never be able to tame her? See this is one of my problems, I over think things – you could never show all this in a short, but even adding a little more depth to Crispy, and show a little bit more of his struggle after the revelation would help.

Does Crispy have the last laugh? Doing what he does can also be the downfall of a man – hence, why I bring up Marion’s death and what he accomplishes with this act. Sometimes the best revenge can be to be “the better man” but I obviously understand that such a thing would never work in such a story.  


- That’s a fair point and I guess it comes down to how well you would take it if it were to happen to you and would you be able to go on sharing a life with a person you know has screwed around behind your back? It would actually make an interesting scene for Crispy to come home to break the news that everyone is dead, including Telly and watch him gauge her reaction, gain some perverse enjoyment from it. But then you have to wonder where their relationship is going to go from here. Not exactly a solid foundation for a happy couple. I do take your point though.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
I don’t mind that’s it long winded – in fact, I think this works as he tries to show his power over his troops. It was more with some of the wording like “the beginning of time” and “founder” these words just struck me as odd – there was a few others that I can’t remember but they stuck out to me. He didn’t seem the character to be saying such words. It’s like one of those teenage kids that hang out around shops at night said “that’s ghastly” instead of “that’s rank” It wouldn’t sound right. On the other hand, I’m not a gangster, nor have I ever affiliated with one so how would I know how they talk – all like Joe Pesci, right?
That’s fair enough and of course gangsters are human beings and suffer the same emotions – it just seemed like an odd choice of word for these types of guys. Please don’t disagree with me again – ever!


- Ha. I guess we all take liberties when putting words into a character’s mouths, or letting them out, whichever.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
At least make them E-Cigs! It would work as well because I think they’re banned in some countries – I remember you couldn’t buy them in Australia originally, that’s probably changed now.


- Ha, that would be bringing it right up to date alright. Although if they are banned would there be a market for them? People will just go back to normal cigs.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
I’ve never been to Ireland – we call them bottle shops or bottle-O’s over here in Oz.


- So they do. I lived in Oz before, just like every other Irish person of a certain demographic. I’ll be going back there again next year actually.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
Exactly this – we all have our own technique and it won’t work for some readers but that doesn’t make them wrong. Please calm down on your ellipses though.


- NEVER! All ye doubters will come around eventually…Watch…this…space…

Don’t apologize for rambling, I like these back and forth discussion, it’s where you learn the most (yeah when we’re talking about your script, says you) So please, let me return the favour if you have anything.

Col.


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Reef Dreamer
Posted: October 10th, 2014, 1:09pm Report to Moderator
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Good to see this in shore script quarter finals - best of luck. Don't think I know your other entry. Must look it up.


My scripts  HERE

The Elevator Most Belonging To Alice - Semi Final Bluecat, Runner Up Nashville
Inner Journey - Page Awards Finalist - Bluecat semi final
Grieving Spell - winner - London Film Awards.  Third - Honolulu
Ultimate Weapon - Fresh Voices - second place
IMDb link... http://www.imdb.com/name/nm7062725/?ref_=tt_ov_wr
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Colkurtz8
Posted: October 11th, 2014, 6:37am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Reef Dreamer
Good to see this in shore script quarter finals - best of luck. Don't think I know your other entry. Must look it up.


Thanks man, yeah the other has been on here for a few years now. Although its nice to be shortlisted, the list is indeed a mile long. I can't see it getting much farther, as its too...wait for it...yes, generic .


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DS
Posted: October 11th, 2014, 11:27am Report to Moderator
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Congratulations Col!

Recognised Reef in the QFs list with a short as well and Dustin with a feature.

Good luck all of you in the next round.
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Reef Dreamer
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Quoted from Colkurtz8


Thanks man, yeah the other has been on here for a few years now. Although its nice to be shortlisted, the list is indeed a mile long. I can't see it getting much farther, as its too...wait for it...yes, generic .


I was about to apologise thinking I had offended you with that phrase but on re reading I think it's others....I hope so.

I thought this was well handled and in keeping with the genre. The question is whether it could be more, not whether it failed. It doesn't. This is something I fail do to, ie write normally/conventially. Didn't fail for the sorpranos!

You'll never see me in TV!


Recognised Reef in the QFs list with a short as well and Dustin with a feature.

Good luck all of you in the next round.


Thanks - but just to brag for Col and Me, we both have two scripts in that  

Well done  Dustin, best of luck.



My scripts  HERE

The Elevator Most Belonging To Alice - Semi Final Bluecat, Runner Up Nashville
Inner Journey - Page Awards Finalist - Bluecat semi final
Grieving Spell - winner - London Film Awards.  Third - Honolulu
Ultimate Weapon - Fresh Voices - second place
IMDb link... http://www.imdb.com/name/nm7062725/?ref_=tt_ov_wr
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Colkurtz8
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Quoted from Reef Dreamer
I was about to apologise thinking I had offended you with that phrase but on re reading I think it's others....I hope so.


- Not at all, it was more a self deprecating dig at myself. I'm not blind to my own work's deficiencies, you have to be in order to improve.

And sorry, I never realised you had a couple shortlisted too, nice one on that. Fingers crossed.

Thanks DS for the kind words also.



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FrankM
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Hey there,

I know this has been laying here for a while, but I thought it was interesting and I hope it gets some renewed attention.

Overall, I liked the story and the atmosphere. Despite the UK/Irish spelling and word choices, it has a recognizable American gangster vibe. I think the easiest course is to switch to American spelling and word choices (plastic sheeting, trunk, liquor store, G.P.S., etc.), or dive deep into your own local knowledge and make it distinctly Irish.

I thought the story was original enough. Maybe people who saw every 1930s gangster movie and know every character in Godfather III will see it as tired, but my bet is that most people won't. If this worries you, go ahead and make the setting distinctly Irish.

I'm not a fan of capping every NOUN that the writer thinks is important, because that's already used for SOUND EFFECTS and CHARACTER INTROS. Personally I'd go with sparing use of italics in the action blocks, but ultimately it's a style choice.

Please establish the time fairly early in the script. It could be as simple as specifying the make and model of Telly's car, or someone's smartphone could ding out a notification, or something else less attention-grabbing than a SUPER yet more precise than leaving it up to the reader's imagination. Yes, readers should default to "present day," but for some reason that just doesn't come naturally in a gangster story.

These guys have awesome street names, but no one ever says Crispy, Rocco or Tweezers in dialogue! Obviously you don't want all these familiar folks artificially referring to each other by name while sitting around the table, but each one's name ought to come up at least once.

As a side note, Crispy ought to have a visible burn scar. And no other explanation of his name

A good place for a first or second name mention would be during Telly's monologue. Rather than vaguely calling Pete the founder, he can point out some great thing Pete did for each of the henchmen... and note that such actions would never happen under this new, timid shadow of a Pete.

Great speakers motivating an audience tend to alternate between Awful Now and Bright Future, back and forth as many times as necessary to get all their points across. Telly could use a variation that contrasts Glorious Past with Awful Now with Bright Future, and it would make the monologue more dynamic while also dripping in some exposition.

Mediocre speakers just dwell on Awful Now (possibly relative to a Glorious Past) then wrap up with a call to Do Something About It, which just so happens to be Something very advantageous to the speaker. Telly can also be a mediocre speaker, but make it a conscious choice.

The crime scene clean up doesn't really need to be a montage, but if you want to get the workman feel from it I would look at LTC Markinson's suicide note scene in A Few Good Men. You only see snippets of the process, but it is conveyed to the audience that this process was long and meticulous.

It was mentioned a couple times above that Crispy should hesitate before taking out Telly. This not only makes the character a little more human, it gives Telly a chance to react to his impending doom. Does he try to reassert control, assume he was caught and beg forgiveness, respect Crispy's ballsiness, etc.?

Overall I think it's a great piece of work. Time jumps make for a tough read, but so long as each time is in a visually distinct setting then I think it will work well on screen.


Feature-length scripts:
Who Wants to Be a Princess? (Family)
Glass House (Horror anthology)

TV pilots:
"Kord" (Fantasy)
"Mal Suerte" (Superhero)

Additional scripts are listed here.
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Colkurtz8
Posted: April 20th, 2018, 8:31am Report to Moderator
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Frank

Thanks for your insightful thoughts, very helpful.


Quoted from FrankM
I read through the version behind the link, sorry if this isn't the latest version and you already addressed some of the things I say. After reading the script I skimmed through the discussion thread just to make sure I'm not repeating something you've heard a million times.


- That link should’ve been the latest draft but a few of the terms you mentioned below have been altered, and for some time. I‘ve rechecked all the links since and they’re working now. Thanks again for the giving me the heads up.

I always comment on scripts blind. I don’t even read the logline if I can help it. That’s how you get the purest reactions. If you repeat stuff others have said, so what, probably means it’s an issue which the writer should take note of.


Quoted from FrankM
Overall, I liked the story and the atmosphere. Despite the UK/Irish spelling and word choices, it has a recognizable American gangster vibe. I think the easiest course is to switch to American spelling and word choices (plastic sheeting, trunk, liquor store, G.P.S., etc.), or dive deep into your own local knowledge and make it distinctly Irish.


- It does have that mix which I hope gives it somewhat a voice of its own. I have scripts that are distinctly Irish but I want variety too. Limits their appeal a bit if everything you write is colloquial, particularly if you’re outside of America and to a lesser extent, Britain. Most of the non-American terms are strictly on the page and won’t be seen on screen anyway but yeah, I take your point.


Quoted from FrankM
I thought the story was original enough. Maybe people who saw every 1930s gangster movie know every character in Godfather III will see it as tired, but my bet is that most people won't. If this worries you, go ahead and make the setting distinctly Irish.


- I would be the first to admit that it doesn’t score highly in the originality department. We’ve seen these types of stories before in other films. The gangster genre is pretty exhausted at this stage, hard to find a new angle. I just hoped it had enough twists and turns to make it entertaining at least.


Quoted from FrankM
I'm not a fan of capping every NOUN that the writer thinks is important, because that's already used for SOUND EFFECTS and CHARACTER INTROS. Personally I'd go with sparing use of italics in the action blocks, but ultimately it's a style choice.


- Yeah, it’s a taste thing. I appreciate it in other scripts so I’ve applied it to my own. I don’t always capitalise sounds either, depends if they’re important. I try to emphasise the key visual components of a given scene as it helps establish the image at a glance. It will annoy some though.


Quoted from FrankM
Please establish the time fairly early in the script. It could be as simple as specifying the make and model of Telly's car, or someone's smartphone could ding out a notification, or something else less attention-grabbing than a SUPER yet more precise than leaving it up to the reader's imagination. Yes, readers should default to "present day," but for some reason that just doesn't come naturally in a gangster story.


- I agree about supers and try to use them sparingly. You’ll see that I liked how you told us the specific year in an organic manner in your script but here is a little more complex with the jumping timelines so I opted for clarity. They could just as easily be removed and left up to the reader to surmise but I guarantee you will have people complaining then that they are confused. I could include a shot of a date on the car display or something but that might seem too clunky also.


Quoted from FrankM
These guys have awesome street names, but no one ever says Crispy, Rocco or Tweezers in dialogue! Obviously you don't want all these familiar folks artificially referring to each other by name while sitting around the table, but each one's name ought to come up at least once.


- Ha, that’s true, I don’t think I ever noticed that before. Seems a waste to not exploit their handles alright. I’ve wedged in a Tweezers and Crispy namedrop but can't find an opportunity for Rocco.


Quoted from FrankM
As a side note, Crispy ought to have a visible burn scar. And no other explanation of his name  


- Good suggestion. I’d just binged watched The Sopranos when I wrote this. The name Crispy came from Christopher and Telly was derived from Tony. The boss-cheating-on-his-protege’s-woman dynamic mirrors that relationship too. Like I say, my head was brimming with all things Sopranos


Quoted from FrankM
A good place for a first or second name mention would be during Telly's monologue. Rather than vaguely calling Pete the founder, he can point out some great thing Pete did for each of the henchmen... and note that such actions would never happen under this new, timid shadow of a Pete.


- Good idea, will look at that.


Quoted from FrankM
Great speakers motivating an audience tend to alternate between Awful Now and Bright Future, back and forth as many times as necessary to get all their points across. Telly could use a variation that contrasts Glorious Past with Awful Now with Bright Future, and it would make the monologue more dynamic while also dripping in some exposition.

Mediocre speakers just dwell on Awful Now (possibly relative to a Glorious Past) then wrap up with a call to Do Something About It, which just so happens to be Something very advantageous to the speaker. Telly can also be a mediocre speaker, but make it a conscious choice.


- Yeah, I didn’t want to make his “pep” talk too polished. He’s a gangster after all speaking in the way he knows how in order to gain allegiance. Thanks for the breakdown though.


Quoted from FrankM
The crime scene clean up doesn't really need to be a montage, but if you want to get the workman feel from it I would look at LTC Markinson's suicide note scene in A Few Good Men. You only see snippets of the process, but it is conveyed to the audience that this process was long and meticulous.


- Will do but yeah it was done for economy and also, as you said, to convey the workman-like procedural nature of the task.


Quoted from FrankM
It was mentioned a couple times in the discussion thread that Crispy should hesitate before taking out Telly. This not only makes the character a little more human, it gives Telly a chance to react to his impending doom. Does he try to reassert control, assume he was caught and beg forgiveness, respect Crispy's ballsiness, etc.?


- I’ve thought about that but I like the abruptness of it. We can assume Crispy has had this rolling around in his head for the previous couple of weeks, the thought processes and reasoning have been done and redone. At this moment now, with the wheels already set in motion, he can’t afford to hesitate.

Cool, glad you got something out of it. You’ve given me a couple of things to consider for the rewrite. Cheers.

Col.


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SAC
Posted: June 21st, 2018, 9:11pm Report to Moderator
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Col,

Hey man. Coulda sworn I read this before, but don't know why I did not comment here. Anyway...

Nice job. Love the vibe you're feeding us. Very sparse writing, description-wise, but it works -- it's the way it's supposed to be. Like how you focus more on character reactions instead of just dialogue to push the moment. The reaction punctuates the dialogue more than just the dialogue alone. Very nice.

I particularly enjoyed the ending. The double cross was in, then the double-double cross. But you didn't just settle for that. You kept going back in time (2 weeks earlier) and so on. It's like, as twisty as the story was, you went there with the writing too. Good choice. And, not sure there was any other way to do it, for that matter.

Not sure if I was happy with the ending. Aside from Crispy wrapping Telly's body the same way as Pete's, I feel Crispy's "arrival" could have been puncuated more. Not by a whole lot more, just something more. Still, if you don't change it, it still works fine as is. Just sayin.

Overall, very good stuff, man!

Steve


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Colkurtz8
Posted: June 30th, 2018, 11:32am Report to Moderator
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Steve

Thanks for taking the time to read this and the kind words.

I'm always very mindful of character reactions and body language, maybe to a fault at times. Perhaps I occasionally overdo it as we always hear how actors don't like too much direction but yeah, I think they can convey a lot if used appropriately. Just like the job of acting itself.

I hoped the convoluted story would be entertaining and unexpected and make up for the script's admitted lack of originality. We've all seen this type of scenario before so I wanted to tell it with as much finesse and guile as possible. Its how you tell 'em, isn't it?

In terms of making the most out of Crispy's "arrival" I tried to give it some dramatic heft by having the looping structure and cutting away right before its revealed. Then going back in time and seeing how we got to that scene. I enjoyed the abruptness of Crispy pulling the trigger too when we finally come full circle. Despite his reticence its cold, clinical and workmanlike.

Thanks again for checking this out.

Col.


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Marcela
Posted: November 16th, 2018, 5:38pm Report to Moderator
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Hi Col,
first of all thank you very much for reading and commenting on my script The Biggest Scam, it was ten months ago. I only read your comments last week, I just got overwhelmed with stuff other than scripts.
I love the title Pecking Order!
Films about gangs are not my favourite, but there are some exceptions. And I pretty much enjoyed your script.
I found some unfilmables - such as 'a man (early 70s), looks his age' or 'A  BODY  lies  inside,  wrapped  in black  POLYTHENE,  tied  up  with  ROPES. ' If the polythene was transparent, then you could write that.
Also there was too many characters for so little pages, they all turned up around page 8, they were all similar kind of people so I sometimes I didn't know who was who. But after reading the script second time I could follow and stopped confusing all the gangsters. Tho thinking about production, many producers don't want a short film with more than 4 characters.
Also, what about putting some different story running through the script... gangsters turning one against another and killing each other sounds more like a back story to me,
Keep up good work,
Marcela


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Colkurtz8
Posted: February 10th, 2019, 3:06am Report to Moderator
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Marcela

Thank you for your comments. Sorry, I'm only responding to them now as I was away from the site too. Hoping to get back into it again.


Quoted from Marcela
I love the title Pecking Order!


- I'm glad the title worked for you as I'm not good with titles and often struggle with them. I realise that the majority of my short script titles are just twists on common phrases or expressions. Not too imaginative. This title is pretty unsubtle and direct, I feel it could be better.


Quoted from Marcela
I found some unfilmables - such as 'a man (early 70s), looks his age'


- You reckon this is an unfilmmable? The guy looks like he's in his early 70s, thus, he looks his age. I don't see a problem with that. Sometimes people look older or younger than their actual age but most of the time I think we can gauge a person's age pretty accurately by just looking at them.



Quoted from Marcela
or 'A  BODY  lies  inside,  wrapped  in black  POLYTHENE,  tied  up  with  ROPES. ' If the polythene was transparent, then you could write that.


- Ha, that's true I never thought of that but given the opening scene, I feel that anybody with a passing interest in films will recognize this scenario and discern what it is by its shape. Maybe I could rewrite it as:

"Inside, wrapped in black POLYTHENE and tied up with ROPES, a BODY SHAPED object"



Quoted from Marcela
Also there was too many characters for so little pages, they all turned up around page 8, they were all similar kind of people so I sometimes I didn't know who was who. But after reading the script second time I could follow and stopped confusing all the gangsters. Tho thinking about production, many producers don't want a short film with more than 4 characters.


- Yeah, that's true, I wanted to create a mini coterie of gangster in order to establish that world or at least give a glimpse into it. It also helped facilitate the banter between them and fuel some of Crispy's motivation to betray them. I attempted to differentiate them whereby Fergus is the more fawning, ass kissing, jokey of the 3, Rocco is a more authoritative, quieter type while Tweezers is somewhere in between.

Also, in relation to the ""two many characters" criticism, while I acknowledge the validity of it, I feel its more of an issue on the page than on screen so I give it some leeway when I see a character heavy script and consider how they will translate on screen.


Quoted from Marcela
Also, what about putting some different story running through the script... gangsters turning one against another and killing each other sounds more like a back story to me


- Perhaps but these rivaling gangsters turning on each other has escalated to the point of one of the families being wiped out. I thought that was worthy of main plot material. What you're asking for is to change the story on a fundamental level which means an entirely different script...and we all know that the gangster genre can be done many different ways so there are surely other stories to be mined from the subject matter.

Thanks again for your thoughts, much appreciated. Let me know if I can return the favour.

Col.


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MatthewLincoln
Posted: June 5th, 2019, 7:41pm Report to Moderator
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Col.

It's Matthew. I wanted to give you a review for Pecking Order. Sorry it's taken so long, but I've really busy with work, recently. My overall thoughts are that Pecking Order is a great script. I really liked your take on the crime/ mob genre, and I'll go as far as to say that this needs to get picked up by someone. It'd be a great movie. I'll start with the technical aspects of the script, then the narrative aspects.

When it comes to the technical elements of Pecking Order, everything is great for the most part. It's formatted properly for the most part(though I do have a question that I'll get to in a moment). I liked the way you described the characters. They were easy to visualize. Same with the action. The biggest plus, for me, is the dialogue.  Your dialogue is very natural, and doesn't come across as stiff. It was very believable, and conveyed elements the story effectively. Great job.

My one issue/question about the format deals with the scene where Crispy finds out that Marion was cheating on him with Telly. Shouldn't that scene be written with a FLASHBACK in the slug line, since it's a flashback? Other than that, the formatting is fine.

When it comes to the narrative, I like the non-linear aspect of the story, beginning with the In Medias Res opening that showed Crispy and Telly dumping the body. That kept me fascinated as to what that was about. another cool thing is that you gave all the major characters their moments, which is impressive given it's twenty page limit. Betrayal seems to be a very strong theme with the script. Telly betraying Pete, Marion betraying Crispy, and Crispy betraying both of them in the end. Once again, it you did a great job on the film. I hope it gets picked up.

Matthew Lincoln
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