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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Unproduced Screenplay Discussion    Short Scripts  ›  Pecking Order Moderators: bert
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  Author    Pecking Order  (currently 198916 views)
Don
Posted: July 31st, 2014, 8:44pm Report to Moderator
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So, what are you writing?

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Pecking Order by Howard Jensen (colkurtz8 ) - Short, Drama - A gangland power struggle offers an underling a chance to make his mark (19 pages) - pdf, format


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Revision History (2 edits; 1 reasons shown)
Don  -  August 2nd, 2014, 11:45am
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rendevous
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Col,

Read this and liked it a lot. I won't talk about it a lot as it's easy to ruin for others. Spoiler alerts should be compulsory for those that need them.

Anyways, suffice to say it works well. As much I like ideas like this they do tend my head hurt a bit. I think it would be much easier to absorb on screen than on the page. Or it could just be me.

R



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DustinBowcot
Posted: August 1st, 2014, 4:41am Report to Moderator
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Typo in the logline though... should be underling. I'll get to this later today.
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AnthonyCawood
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Hi Howard

Owe you a read or two! So I captured my thoughts as I went along, all just my opinion of course. At the end I get to what I thought of the script itself

- I think there's an over use of elipses (14 on first page) and mybe not used in quite the right way as the two normal/standard uses are to show missing text in a quatation or to show a trailing off in speech. E.g.
Telly glances at Crispy who feels his gaze...They lock eyes momentarily...Crispy nods with more conviction this time.
I think these should be replaced with '.' or ',' depending on how you want them to run together.
This is something my earlier scripts are also littered with

- I get the sense this is set in the USA but some of the language used is very English so I'd consider replacing to keep it feeling consistent. E.g. Boot to Trunk, Polythene to Plastic, Off License to Liquor Store, Skivvies to Lackeys (unless it's the other way round and it is supposed to be set in the UK?)

- The scene with the car jacking reads a little confused (or confused me - which is easy), I think becuase there's two vehicles in the scene and it implies they appear behind the van, but then she steps aside and seems to reveal the first car jacker. So is she also behind the van now, or is the car jacker behind her?

- Do you mean mini bar, or small bar as per Goodfellas? As a mini bar is normally just a small fridge.

- So when are you going to bring in that lovely lady of yours around? - I think the 'around' is a hangover from an earlier edit.

- I think the line 'platoon without a Lieutenant' should use a different rank, a Lieutenant is normally a lower rank and in this context Telly is kind of the Lieutenant already.

- I think Telly's dialogue on page 7 is a little over long and expositional - we know what happened with Philly from the previous scene so not sure we need detils of the other examples.

- I'm not sure the scene of killing the henchmen playing poker is necessary, perhaps Philly's offer to Crispy is that he taes over... otherwise what does Crispy get out of killing Telly?

As mentioned, from a script point of view, I think this needs to be written entirely with a US voice (or entirely UK) otherwise readers may get confused, which you don't want if you re looking for someone to make this.

I'd consider trying to locate this somehere too, as at times there felt like elements familiar from Italian gangster type approaches, then not. Personally I think it would work better with gritty urban from somehwere not normally associated with gangsters..

But, overall I liked this, moved at a decent pace and a couple of twists keep you slighty off kilter and not 100% confident that you've figured it out. It's nicely visual too and I could see this as the intro to a longer film on what Crispy does next.

Good job

Anthony




Anthony Cawood - Award winning screenwriter
Available Short screenplays - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/short-scripts
Available Feature screenplays - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/feature-film-scripts/
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Colkurtz8
Posted: August 1st, 2014, 5:18am Report to Moderator
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Thanks Ren for the kind words.



Quoted from DustinBowcot
Typo in the logline though... should be underling. I'll get to this later today.


- Well spotted, I noticed it too and have already PM'd the powers that be. Rookie mistake on my part.


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DS
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Hi Col. Just read this - my thoughts:

Your writing chops can definitely be seen reading this. You've set a perfect tense mob atmosphere to glue you to the script. The dialogue is great. All the reveals had very good timing to move the story forward.

I found all of the characters interesting and well-written. Good job.

But the ending kind of kills it for me. Alright, Crispy kills Telly, his girlfriend and his entire gang. Why? What's he getting out of it? Even if you just took the "he snapped" approach with him there should be something in the script to confirm this. Right now, it just falls flat on what is otherwise a really really good script.

A few small errors I noticed in the script:

P3:
CARJACKER #1
Yep, two dickhead's who should've
kept drivin'!

Dickheads not dickhead's.

P5: ROCCO (mid 40s) the heavy, thick necked, broad shouldered.

"The" indicates that there should be something after the adjectives. It reads awkwardly right now. Remove "the" or add something behind the adjectives.

P16: You use polythene on page 1 and page 19, plastic on page 16. Could use some continuity there.

- DS
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Colkurtz8
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Quoted from AnthonyCawood
- I think there's an over use of elipses (14 on first page) and mybe not used in quite the right way as the two normal/standard uses are to show missing text in a quatation or to show a trailing off in speech. E.g.
Telly glances at Crispy who feels his gaze...They lock eyes momentarily...Crispy nods with more conviction this time.
I think these should be replaced with '.' or ',' depending on how you want them to run together.
This is something my earlier scripts are also littered with


- I've always used them in the "traditional sense" in dialogue to convey pacing and phrasing but have increasingly over time incorporated them into the prose to break up action without having to go on to a new line. To me they make sense and help the flow of the read while conserving space. I've seen them used in scripta from the black list of un-established writers to produced screenplays and adopted the approach. Just a style thing anyway, each to their own.


Quoted from AnthonyCawood
- I get the sense this is set in the USA but some of the language used is very English so I'd consider replacing to keep it feeling consistent. E.g. Boot to Trunk, Polythene to Plastic, Off License to Liquor Store, Skivvies to Lackeys (unless it's the other way round and it is supposed to be set in the UK?)


- I'm Irish so I use what would be called UK English but the script's specific location is left open, I don't make any geographical references. This is something I avoid in the majority of my stuff unless the location is important to the story. If not, I don't want to be restrict to a certain place. Obviously, my vernacular is going to come through in the dialogue at times and there is definitely an American gangster feel as that's where the gangster genre originated from so these kind of characters will always have that vibe, it comes with the territory.

The relationship of Telly and Crispy is inspired by The Sopranos (I wrote this right after I binged watched it, couldn't help myself )  but I tried to maintain a neutrality in regards the setting and not explicitly say one or the other. It exists in its own halfway world Anyway, If someone wanted to produce it in either country, a few tweaks would solve it.


Quoted from AnthonyCawood
- The scene with the car jacking reads a little confused (or confused me - which is easy), I think becuase there's two vehicles in the scene and it implies they appear behind the van, but then she steps aside and seems to reveal the first car jacker. So is she also behind the van now, or is the car jacker behind her?


- She is talking to the Driver through his window when they pull up. The prose says he rolls down his window. As the masked men emerge from the bushes behind the van and flank either side, she moves aside (as in moves away from the window) so the Carjacker can point the gun at the Driver.


Quoted from AnthonyCawood
- Do you mean mini bar, or small bar as per Goodfellas? As a mini bar is normally just a small fridge.


- I meant in the Goodfellas sense. You're right, a mini bar can mean just a fridge, like in a hotel room but it can also refer to the Goodfellas kind.


Quoted from AnthonyCawood
- So when are you going to bring in that lovely lady of yours around? - I think the 'around' is a hangover from an earlier edit.


- Not sure what you mean, it reads ok to me.


Quoted from AnthonyCawood
- I think the line 'platoon without a Lieutenant' should use a different rank, a Lieutenant is normally a lower rank and in this context Telly is kind of the Lieutenant already.


- I actually looked this up and Lieutenant is the rank that leads a platoon. In this context that means Pete.


Quoted from AnthonyCawood
- I think Telly's dialogue on page 7 is a little over long and expositional - we know what happened with Philly from the previous scene so not sure we need detils of the other examples.


- Fair point and you're not the first to say this. My reasoning is that Telly is a dominating figure, he likes the power, the sound of his own voice, this is his soapbox. He's relishes it. Also, its a big call to knock off your own boss so there is an element of Telly being in sell mode too. He needs to convince the guys this is right thing to do, their only option at this point so he embellishes. Its almost a routine, like he has it memorized for this occasion.


Quoted from AnthonyCawood
- I'm not sure the scene of killing the henchmen playing poker is necessary, perhaps Philly's offer to Crispy is that he taes over... otherwise what does Crispy get out of killing Telly?


- I disagree, Philly wants to wipe out Telly's crew and the unspoken arrangement is that Crispy will join Philly's once this all done. I purposely had Telly's cronies undermine Crispy to give the impression that Crispy hasn't really been accepted by them...except for Telly of course who has taken him under his wing, a mentor figure. This fuels the cronies' (particularly Fergus who I imagined to be  like Paulie from The Sopranos) jealousy of him also.

Telly is really the only reason why Crispy has associated himself with this crew so when he finds out about the betrayal its severs any attachment he would've had. I needed to make it believable that Crispy would readily double cross them. Also, if Crispy just took out Telly do you really think the others would stand by and let him assume power? No way, they had to go too.

Thanks so much for taking the time Anthony really appreciate your thoughts, you've give me a few things to consider when I go looking at this again.

Regards

Col.


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Colkurtz8
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Quoted from DS
Your writing chops can definitely be seen reading this. You've set a perfect tense mob atmosphere to glue you to the script. The dialogue is great. All the reveals had very good timing to move the story forward.


- Thank you, glad it worked in that regard.


Quoted from DS
But the ending kind of kills it for me. Alright, Crispy kills Telly, his girlfriend and his entire gang. Why? What's he getting out of it? Even if you just took the "he snapped" approach with him there should be something in the script to confirm this. Right now, it just falls flat on what is otherwise a really really good script.


- You'll notice in the scenes between Crispy and the cronies, when Telly isn't around, that they are constantly trying to undermine Crispy, especially Fergus. I wanted to show that Crispy hasn't been ingratiated into the crew, except for Telly of course. I imagine the other guys are jealous of Crispy's closeness to Telly, they're like "who the fu?k is this guy" So there is no love lost between, they'll use any opportunity (suitably when Telly isn't around) to cut him down to size, put him in his place.

So when Crispy finds out that Telly (the primary reason why Crispy is attached to the crew) has betrayed him, there is nothing really keeping him around, you know. That key bond he shared with the second command is irrevocably damaged. This is why he goes along with the double cross. What does he get out of it? I imagine, but didn't feel it needed to be stated outright, that Crispy would be absorbed into Philly's crew and be looked after for his cooperation.

I'm glad you highlighted this point though as I was very aware of it, That's why I had that underlying condescension and belittlement in the scenes between Crispy, Fergus, Tweezers and Rocco before Telly arrives.


Quoted from DS
P3:
CARJACKER #1
Yep, two dickhead's who should've
kept drivin'!

Dickheads not dickhead's.


- Good catch, cheers.


Quoted from DS
P5: ROCCO (mid 40s) the heavy, thick necked, broad shouldered.

"The" indicates that there should be something after the adjectives. It reads awkwardly right now. Remove "the" or add something behind the adjectives.


- I see what you mean but I meant "heavy" as a noun not an adjective. As in the "tough guy", the "muscle", the Luca Brasi of the crew


Quoted from DS
P16: You use polythene on page 1 and page 19, plastic on page 16. Could use some continuity there.


- You're right, good catch.

Thank for the comments, Marko, I hope the motivation for Crispy's double-cross went some way to explaining where I was coming from.

Regards

Col.


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AnthonyCawood
Posted: August 1st, 2014, 10:11am Report to Moderator
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My pleasure Howard

And what I meant for 'So when are you going to bring in that lovely lady of yours around?'

Is that I think it should either be 'So when are you going to bring in that lovely lady of yours?'
or
'So when are you going to bring that lovely lady of yours around?'

Either the 'around' or the 'in' don't need to be in the sentence.

Re Lieutenant - yep agree, I think it's the fact that Lieutenant is also used specifically in Mafia movies/slang and I think is a lower rank than implied - see http://uk.askmen.com/money/mafioso_150/176_mafia.html
no biggie though of course.

Good script though.

Cheers

Anthony


Anthony Cawood - Award winning screenwriter
Available Short screenplays - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/short-scripts
Available Feature screenplays - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/feature-film-scripts/
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IMDB Link - http://www.imdb.com/name/nm6495672/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1
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DustinBowcot
Posted: August 1st, 2014, 10:12am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Colkurtz8

- I see what you mean but I meant "heavy" as a noun not an adjective. As in the "tough guy", the "muscle", the Luca Brasi of the crew.


To make this more clear, I'd suggest an extra comma: ROCCO (mid 40s), the heavy, thick necked, broad shouldered.

Or even clearer: ROCCO (mid 40s) - the heavy - thick neck, broad shoulders.
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rendevous
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Not sure there is a problem saying polythene on one page then plastic on another.

Polythene is plastic. They're interchangeable. Except in certain circumstances. It's often better in scripts to vary the words, lest it becomes repetive. However, there can be problems. And you need exactly right word. Not sure that is case here. But there are examples...

Such as my latest obsession, an early scene in the Twin Peaks....


Quoted from Pete from Eraserhead on the phone
She's deeaaad. Wrapped in plaasstic.


Polythene wouldn't have worked as well. Just my tuppence.

R


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Colkurtz8
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Anthony

Ah, I see. I actually checked the line and never saw "in", hence the confusion. I'll stick with "around". Thanks for the heads up.

I see what you mean about using the Lieutenant term too and the mix up it might cause. The fact that Telly says platoon though indicates that he is using it in a military context. Point taken all the same.

Thanks Dustin for the suggestion, I'll look at it.

Ren

I do like consistency of terms as well so I changed it as per Marko's suggestion.

And yes, anything from Jack Nance's mouth, either in Twin Peaks or Eraserhead or Wild at Heart for that matter (not so much Blue "I'm Paul" Velvet) is always said with the right amount of broiling anxiety!


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DS
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@Col: I gave this more thought and I changed my mind. Technically Philly did warn Crispy that they're "resourceful" if he doesn't join in. And he was clearly pissed at Telly and co. for how they've treated him. That is motivation enough. The ambiguous ending seems to actually work well here. The reader/viewer can come up with happens next theirselves. Does Crispy go to work with Philly? Has Philly just used Crispy and is going to whack him now? Has Crispy realised what the criminal world is like and decides to quit?

I seem to have overlooked a few things during my first read causing me to come to a different conclusion. So here's me rectifying it with a full on positive review.



@R: I agree 100%. In dialogue calling things with different names is always a welcome thing to make a certain sentence sound better or to show that different characters really do call different things by different names.

Here I meant the action lines. And my gripe was that technically, polyethylene isn't completely synonymous with plastic. It's just the most commonly used type of plastic.

Kind of like a scene:

John hands Jack a cigar.

Jack reaches into his pocket for a lighter. A smile, he lights the cigaret.

Similar, but not necessarily the same thing and gets confusing if you're the reader, or worse... the props guy.
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Colkurtz8
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Quoted from DS
I gave this more thought and I changed my mind. Technically Philly did warn Crispy that they're "resourceful" if he doesn't join in. And he was clearly pissed at Telly and co. for how they've treated him. That is motivation enough. The ambiguous ending seems to actually work well here. The reader/viewer can come up with happens next theirselves. Does Crispy go to work with Philly? Has Philly just used Crispy and is going to whack him now? Has Crispy realised what the criminal world is like and decides to quit?


- Cool, yeah there is a degree of open-endedness about what will happen to Crispy now. He's does his part so he could walk away, disillusioned with supposed gang loyalty and that way of life. Or he could go in with Philly as the underworld is all he knows. He's accumulated a fair chunk of good will by helping him rub out Telly and Co. so that will be an option for him.


Quoted from DS
Here I meant the action lines. And my gripe was that technically, polyethylene isn't completely synonymous with plastic. It's just the most commonly used type of plastic.


- I agree with uniformity and consistency in that regard too. Its just one less reason for a reader to flag it. If you keep it the same, they can't take issue with it. Although, like everything, there will be exceptions.

Thanks for your response.

Col.


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JimiLamp
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Col,

Overall I thought you did a really nice job with this. Enjoyed the read and liked how the seconded have ramped up. Set-up was pretty solid too.

There were a few grammar and continuity issues and I think most were pointed out.

The few issues I had:

I thought overall you did a good job with the dialogue on this. I think in a few spots the subtlety of the language changes. On page 7, Telly has his monologue about taking Pete out. Overall I liked it. But think It could be cut a bit. Telly has a very matter a fact way of speaking. I like that. But other guys, like Fergus seem to have that Italian Swagger. Mixed with some of the description, using words like boot for trunk. I understood it fine in relation to the scene but rarely hear that term. Overall not a huge deal. But if you pin it down a bit I think it may help. I like that you don't specify location. But I feel like you're going for the Italian/American mob for the most part here?

I really liked the scene with Telly and Marion in the motel. For some reason it stood out to me. I really got a sense of Telly outside of the bar and the guys. Got that cold calculating vibe. Awesome scene.

One thing I spotted on p 8. Pete is killed and lying wide eyed with a clean EXIT WOUND. Do you mean ENTRY WOUND. Exit wounds are not usually clean. And lying wide eyed would imply he is on his back so you wouldn't see the exit wound.

Thought you did a nice job with that last few pages bringing this to a close. Writing some of those flashbacks and jump around scenes can get confusing but it read well, made sense. Didn't fully see all that coming so nice job with that. Good ending.

Taking a shot at the crime/mafia genre ain't an easy task so kudos on making it pretty authentic and fresh.

I think a few tweaks and this is a really solid script. Solid already.

Nice job.


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* second half ramped up

Look who's talking about grammar over here! Whatta muddah fuggah!
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Athenian
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Hi Col,

I really enjoyed this one. Well-written, solid and interesting. Here are a few thoughts:

- Till the end, I wasn't quite sure why Telly had taken Crispy under his wings. Did he actually like him a little bit or was it all about the hot girlfriend? Maybe you could make it a little clearer.

- Also some background to Telly and Marion might be helpful. Was Telly a Tony Soprano-like womanizer? Was Marion the unfaithful type, in general, or was she attracted particularly to him? Since their affair is central to the story, I'd like to know more about it (a fling? something more serious?) and them.

- The montage scene felt somewhat redundant, since you had already showed what happened to Pete.

- A couple of times, I had to go back and check previous "supers" ("one week earlier" etc.), because I wasn't sure which flashback came first chronologically.

Other than that, good job! I think your script could make a really nice film.

Manolis
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I tried to read this but it screams run of the mill.  Everything felt like it was ripped from (bad mob) movies.

There's nothing new or special here.  I've seen it all before...a thousand times.  Really disappointed with this.  

I see such great, insightful reviews of yours all over the board.

I would have thought you would have came up with something better than a cliche mob story.

Sorry, but you can do better than this, Col, I'm sure.
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rendevous
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I think that's somewhat harsh, Deadite. So nothing new there, then.

Are there any actual scripts on SS you do like? If so please PM me, as lately you seem to not like anything at all, not one little bit.


Quoted from Deadite
Sorry, but you can do better than this


I'm sure he can. It's quite a nice thing to say in a way. But I think you could balance up your posts on scripts a little more. There must have been something in there you thought was passable. You can do better too, Deadite. We all can. Well, most of us, hopefully.

Like you say, Col is a good reviewer. Like C M Hall he spots things no one else mentions. I like you, Deadite. But being over harsh on scripts ain't helpful. There's more to it than that.

R


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Quoted from rendevous

I think that's somewhat harsh, Deadite. So nothing new there, then.


Are you insinuating that I only leave negative reviews?  


Quoted from rendevous

Are there any actual scripts on SS you do like? If so please PM me,


Ok, I'm sending you over a PM right now with 13 features and 5 shorts.

I'm sure there's more, but I racked my brain and this is what I came up with off the top of my head.

Give them a read if you haven't already.

I personally like to give someone a read and if they want to return it, I just recommend someone else's work, so check out the list I sent ya!  


Quoted from rendevous

as lately you seem to not like anything at all, not one little bit.


This isn't the first time someone has said this exact same thing to me, but I'm sorry, I don't know what to tell ya.  If I don't like it then I don't like it, and yes, there's been streaks where I haven't liked anything on here at all.  Years ago, I might have been more lenient, but I have changed as a writer and a lot of things just don't fly with me anymore.  



Quoted from rendevous


But I think you could balance up your posts on scripts a little more. There must have been something in there you thought was passable.


I do balance up my reviews - check my recent one for Cold Snap.

I like to balance things, but sometimes it's hard...because there's nothing for me to like - at all.

Sorry but from what I read, I didn't see anything that was passable.

I hate to say it too, because I do like Col a lots.

And col, if I came across as harsh, I apologize, man.



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rendevous
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Quoted from Deadite
Ok, I'm sending you over a PM right now with 13 features and 5 shorts.


He did too.


Quoted from Deadite
And col, if I came across as harsh, I apologize, man.


As I said to Deadite in the PM, I found it impressive that he takes criticism so well. Many don't. Myself being among them, sometimes.

Good thing to remember. You should stick a script up here sometime, Deadite. It'd be interesting to see it. And Lord knows you're owed a bagful of return reads.

R


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Quoted from rendevous


You should stick a script up here sometime, Deadite. It'd be interesting to see it. And Lord knows you're owed a bagful of return reads.


I had a feature posted a couple months back (and years ago), but took it down.  The first time it was posted - glowing reviews and nothing but praise (and I was always proud that Bert liked my script because I always considered him a tough nut to crack).  The second time - not so much, haha.  But I didn't care.  It's all good.  Now that I think about it, I should have saved all of the reviews from the first time my feature was up, but I didn't.  I know I have all of the ones from the second one saved in an e-mail.

I know I read a lot of shit on here, and yeah, I know I should be owed a "bagful of return reads", but I really don't mind.  Personally, I rather recommend the work of others instead.  I do it all the time.  Unfortunately, not a lot of people like my recommendations, but I don't care.  I rather someone else get a read and some good input instead of sending it my way.  Especially when I feel something is bordering on bad but has mad potential, I rather that person get a bunch of reads to help them out and make it work.  That's just me, though!
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Colkurtz8
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Quoted from JimiLamp
I thought overall you did a good job with the dialogue on this. I think in a few spots the subtlety of the language changes. On page 7, Telly has his monologue about taking Pete out. Overall I liked it. But think It could be cut a bit. Telly has a very matter a fact way of speaking. I like that.


- Ya, I talked about that in another post, I know its a scriptwriter's knee jerk reaction to want "less is more" and I agree with that to an extent but some characters are talkative, some characters use language to manipulate and persuade and Telly is one of those. His position within the crew and the situation of taking out their boss demands it. That's why I let him ramble on a bit, I thought it fitted him. I take you point though.


Quoted from JimiLamp
But other guys, like Fergus seem to have that Italian Swagger. Mixed with some of the description, using words like boot for trunk. I understood it fine in relation to the scene but rarely hear that term. Overall not a huge deal. But if you pin it down a bit I think it may help. I like that you don't specify location. But I feel like you're going for the Italian/American mob for the most part here?


- Ya, I'm Irish so I use Irish terms (off-Licence, boot, etc) which will jar with a script about gangsters as I (like anybody who watches American films) was brought up that Italian American crime milieu. So yes, its clearly an influence, I'll be the first to admit that.


Quoted from JimiLamp
I really liked the scene with Telly and Marion in the motel. For some reason it stood out to me. I really got a sense of Telly outside of the bar and the guys. Got that cold calculating vibe. Awesome scene.


- Cool yeah, glad you liked it. I wanted to give the impression that Marion is more into him then Telly is into her, which feeds into Telly being this guy that Crispy looks up to, he's everything Crispy wants to be, the ultimate alpha male that women desire.


Quoted from JimiLamp
One thing I spotted on p 8. Pete is killed and lying wide eyed with a clean EXIT WOUND. Do you mean ENTRY WOUND. Exit wounds are not usually clean. And lying wide eyed would imply he is on his back so you wouldn't see the exit wound.


- Ha, nice, I appreciate your acute observation. I did mean it as an exit wound through Pete's forehead as Crispy would've shot him from behind. But you're right, that wound would be messy, well spotted, I'll omit "clean". Also, I imagine Telly has turned him over so he's lying face up. I think its much more visually striking if we see Pete's face as opposed to the back of his head.


Quoted from JimiLamp
Thought you did a nice job with that last few pages bringing this to a close. Writing some of those flashbacks and jump around scenes can get confusing but it read well, made sense. Didn't fully see all that coming so nice job with that. Good ending.


- Thanks but I'll concede that the flashback are rather "placed" and convenient but they serve the story and its kinda the nature of things like that when you want to pull the rug from underneath the audience. Good that it worked for you though and you didn't see it coming.

Cheers for your thoughts, appreciate you taking the time.


Manolis


Quoted from Athenian
- Till the end, I wasn't quite sure why Telly had taken Crispy under his wings. Did he actually like him a little bit or was it all about the hot girlfriend? Maybe you could make it a little clearer.


- I included a line where Telly talks abut how he found Crispy as a petty criminal, took him under his wing. Its a short so I didn't want to get bogged down in back-story. Let the audience fill in the blanks, its the classic mentor/pupil dynamic. I believe Telly does like Crispy and wants to mold him into a version of him, only after the fact would he have met Marion.


Quoted from Athenian
- Also some background to Telly and Marion might be helpful. Was Telly a Tony Soprano-like womanizer? Was Marion the unfaithful type, in general, or was she attracted particularly to him? Since their affair is central to the story, I'd like to know more about it (a fling? something more serious?) and them.


- Good question. Yeah the Telly and Crispy relationship is based on the Tony/Chris relationship in The Sopranos. I wrote this after I binged watched a few years back for the first time and immediately wanted to write something in that vein. Again, I didn't want to go into too much back story, I hoped I could convey all you needed to know about Marion and Telly in the scene they share together. She is clearly more into him then he is into her, he exudes that masculinity which she digs, you'll notice that he's quite aloof with her. Is it guilt? Is he just playing up to the hard man persona? I'll leave that open for interpretation.


Quoted from Athenian
- The montage scene felt somewhat redundant, since you had already showed what happened to Pete.


- Ya, its just a quick series of shot to show the clean up, the guys doing their "dirty" work. I thought some might wonder how would they dispose of the body so I wanted to show the polythene and rocks. I felt we had to see some sort of consequence, the less glamorous side of the profession, since I don't show the actual murder of Pete, which to most wouldn't be considered too glamorous either


Quoted from Athenian
- A couple of times, I had to go back and check previous "supers" ("one week earlier" etc.), because I wasn't sure which flashback came first chronologically.


- Ya, the flashbacks come thick and fast at the end, I can understand if so might have difficulty with them. On screen it wouldn't be such a problem so I tried to make them as concise as possible on the page.

Thanks for taking the time and your comments, appreciate it.

Col.


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Colkurtz8
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Quoted from Guest
I tried to read this but it screams run of the mill.  Everything felt like it was ripped from (bad mob) movies.

There's nothing new or special here.  I've seen it all before...a thousand times.  Really disappointed with this.  

I see such great, insightful reviews of yours all over the board.

I would have thought you would have came up with something better than a cliche mob story.

Sorry, but you can do better than this, Col, I'm sure.


First off, I appreciate you taking the time to look at this, sorry I didn't work for you.

I won't make any argument that this is breaking new ground. It was inspired from smashing The Sopranos in a couple of weeks so I ain't exactly drawing from obscurity here But I dig that show and wanted to to do something drawn from it.

Its a genre script so its going to borrow from the tenets of that genre, the mentor/pupil relationship, the double cross, the rival gangs, its all there. I just hoped to give it a little twist in how the story develops. So while its not anything new at least it has a narrative that might catch you by surprise within the framework of the well worn mob environment.

I am curious to know how far you got in it though?





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Quoted from Colkurtz8



I am curious to know how far you got in it though?




About 10 pages.
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Col,

Great job. Dialog is very good. Page count flowed through nicely.  A few too many characters to track for my liking but story seemed very precise.

Nice work.

Gl,

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Quoted from Colkurtz8


It was inspired from smashing The Sopranos in a couple of weeks so I ain't exactly drawing from obscurity here But I dig that show and wanted to to do something drawn from it.



The problem here is that Sopranos is a multi-layered show and there's more to it than rival gangsters, double crosses, and all that jazz.  You have to dig deeper if you're going to create a Sopranos-like world with some real depth.  'Pecking Order' actually reminds me of a feature I tried to attempt with a friend of mine when we were like 14 or 15, called 'Mob Life', and it was very much uninspired.  We made a carbon copy of everything we saw from other mob movies and this is exactly what Pecking Order comes across as.

And I think that's why a lot of people are tired of mob stuff.  I've heard people on here say they're aren't interested in anything mob because it's the same old, same old, and I can see where they're coming from.  It's always the same old shit, like some writer is just taking what they saw from movies that were already made and putting it into their own script.  

If you're ever gonna take a stab at the mob, I'd strongly recommend finding a true story and doing mad research on it, and there are a lot of good ones to choose from.  There are plenty of cats you could write about and, if done right, would make for an awesome, epic fucking movie.  John Gotti, Nicky Scarfo, Jimmy Coonan & Mickey Featherstone (The Westies), The Roy DeMeo crew, etc.  They got Johnny Depp playing Whitey Bulger - and that movie was inevitable once White was finally captured - and if they don't fuck around and they do it right, they're gonna have a classic on their hands.  

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Colkurtz8
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Tony

Thanks for the taking, glad you liked it.


Deadite


Quoted from Guest
The problem here is that Sopranos is a multi-layered show and there's more to it than rival gangsters, double crosses, and all that jazz.  You have to dig deeper if you're going to create a Sopranos-like world with some real depth.  'Pecking Order' actually reminds me of a feature I tried to attempt with a friend of mine when we were like 14 or 15, called 'Mob Life', and it was very much uninspired.  We made a carbon copy of everything we saw from other mob movies and this is exactly what Pecking Order comes across as.

And I think that's why a lot of people are tired of mob stuff.  I've heard people on here say they're aren't interested in anything mob because it's the same old, same old, and I can see where they're coming from.  It's always the same old shit, like some writer is just taking what they saw from movies that were already made and putting it into their own script.  

If you're ever gonna take a stab at the mob, I'd strongly recommend finding a true story and doing mad research on it, and there are a lot of good ones to choose from.  There are plenty of cats you could write about and, if done right, would make for an awesome, epic fucking movie.  John Gotti, Nicky Scarfo, Jimmy Coonan & Mickey Featherstone (The Westies), The Roy DeMeo crew, etc.  They got Johnny Depp playing Whitey Bulger - and that movie was inevitable once White was finally captured - and if they don't fuck around and they do it right, they're gonna have a classic on their hands.


- When I say inspired I'm not claiming to have written something that comes within an a?s's roar of its scope and depth. Obviously not and I know you didn't mean that either. That was an 86 hour TV show, this is a 19 page script and should be judged accordingly.

I love the gangster genre and wholeheartedly agree that's its tired and overdone. Much like zombies and vampires though probably not to the same degree. I hadn't wrote any gangster stuff before and, like I say, this came after binge watching that show over a number of weeks. It was outlined and written in a couple of hours.

Funny you should mention taking a real life mobster and doing a feature, this would probably be something I'd never do due to their ubiquity. My interest would wane because I'd recognize the box ticking of cliches but a short is a different beast, a faster process, something to keep one ticking over.

I can't argue with this being unoriginal but I hope that it might entertain and catch some by surprise.


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Col,

You're right about Telly's dialogue. It was a knee jerk reaction. I don't even really know what cut it a bit even means. I think it works just fine.

That's interesting with the the Pete death scene. Because you didn't show it, I sort of made it up in my head. But the way you explained also makes perfect sense. Do think the exit would would be messy still. But you get my point.

Why I thought this was interesting was the idea of such a young underling taking down his entire gang. Because he was disrespected. Being that young and fresh in the gang and willing to take it that far. I don't really recall seeing that idea. Especially in a short. But I'll admit I'm not a full on Gangster genre expert.

Could be interesting putting an Irish spin on this too. Not necessary but just a thought. Sure one maybe considered already.
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Colkurtz8
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Quoted from JimiLamp
Why I thought this was interesting was the idea of such a young underling taking down his entire gang. Because he was disrespected. Being that young and fresh in the gang and willing to take it that far. I don't really recall seeing that idea. Especially in a short. But I'll admit I'm not a full on Gangster genre expert.


- I'm by no means an expert in this genre either or any for that matter but yeah in terms of Crispy helping to wipe out the crew he's tagged onto wouldn't have entered his mind only for Telly's transgression and the nature in how it was revealed to him along with Philly's proposition.

I imagined Crispy being in awe of Telly, forever in his debt, seeing him as his mentor, etc, especially since the others haven't taken to him so well...but when he finds out that this same guy who's supposed to be looking out for him, who he looks up to, his one real friend within the group, has committed the ultimate betrayal, there's nothing keeping him loyal anymore, that attachment is broken.


Quoted from JimiLamp
Could be interesting putting an Irish spin on this too. Not necessary but just a thought. Sure one maybe considered already.


- Good idea, plenty of Irish gangsters to go choose from too. We're quite fond of rocking into other countries and starting up illegal enterprises.

Thanks for your further comments.

Col.


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Hi Col

Been meaning to read this for a while.

I haven't read any other comments so apologies for any repeats, but it's best to get a clean read.

P1 As a matter of interest why have the .... After remains . Actually just noticed the a lot . You use this on the first page. 13 times... (Note - and a lot during the script in different aspects)

Tweezers - you have some good names in this

P8 it's business

P16 - Don't want to be picky but I don't think a montage  is required for the wrapping the body. It's just what they do.

P17/18 - quite a lot of time movement here - one to be careful of. Is it all required for clarity?


Ok, finished.

Accomplished work. Nicely handled.

Observations.

I don't want to be harsh, and i like the handling, but it does feel like something we've seen before, down to the silk pyjamas etc . Mind you, I think this is a weakness in me, as the real world of film does the similar things so I underplay the normal, but it was a thought of mine.

Ending - funny but I thought this was too soon. We got the king is dead, and expect Telly to go as well, by the last page, but what about the new master? Where is crispys role? Does he take over Pete or is he in with Philly. For me this needed a final confirmation as there had been a lot of changes.

So, what would I suggest. Well, I would give crispy an extra itch. More than the girl. What's he really want? I'm not sure I got that. Does he want power? Other girls? Respect? Whatever...and how's he gona get it?

'Pecking order' is good in terms of it suggests - since I have chickens - that there is 'one' group, not two. And that it's about where you stand in that group. The parallel with where Crsipy stands, his moment arrives etc. Yet, do we see the final group, no.

I would almost conclude a better title could be 'Cockerels'. Constant fight, a desire for position, a movement of power. Turf war etc

You handle the group banter well and there is a steady hand on the movement between the scenes. I could learn from that.

I think my overriding suggestion would be...surprise us....more....and then it will stand out

All the best






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IamGlenn
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Col,

After you read and gave some great thoughts on my work, I thought I'd repay the favour and have a look at one of yours. This was the latest one and the gangster storyline intrigued me. So I gave it a go..

This is some great work. With the amount of characters you used and the few twists at the end it was surprisingly easy to read for me.

The Crispy character was brilliantly done and the payoff at the end involving him was brilliantly executed. He wasn't the only good character but he was obviously the one that stood out most.

I think you said somewhere that you wrote this after watching The Soprano's and that is definitely visibe, which is only a good thing.

The scenes in the backroom were also very well written and I enjoyed them.

Great read and good luck with this. I must check out more of your work.

Glenn


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Colkurtz8
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Bill


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
Been meaning to read this for a while.


- Thanks for the taking the time, man.


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
I haven't read any other comments so apologies for any repeats, but it's best to get a clean read.


- Cool, totally agree, I do the same. I don't even read loglines, just the author's name.


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
P1 As a matter of interest why have the .... After remains . Actually just noticed the a lot . You use this on the first page. 13 times... (Note - and a lot during the script in different aspects)


I use them a lot now, its just a style thing. I used to only have them in dialogue for pacing and phrasing but the more I saw people use them in their prose the more they made sense to me so I adopted the technique. Again, I see them as good indicator of pacing, useful for breaking up prose, delineating between separate actions without going on to a new line so they conserve space too. In the specific example you mentioned, its to convey that the camera might hold on Crispy for a moment before Telly notes his nervousness. They mightn't work for some, and may seem overkill to others but they totally make sense to me which is the most important thing I feel and the attitude I take regarding all screenwriting rules. Apply what seems right to you and discard the rest.


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
P8 it's business


- Great catch, cheers. Microsoft Word picked it up an all. I just went and ignored it.


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
P16 - Don't want to be picky but I don't think a montage  is required for the wrapping the body. It's just what they do.


- Fair point, I just wanted to give the impression of a quick burst of images, like a step by step guide of how they go about their dirty work


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
P17/18 - quite a lot of time movement here - one to be careful of. Is it all required for clarity?


- True, there is some back and forth to before the beginning of the script's events and to just before the Pete's assassination to see where Crispy's machinations are at. I've always conceded that the flashbacks are rather conveniently placed to give the twist its full effect in terms of Crispy's real intentions but that's kind of the nature of them. I left a few clues during the script through Crispy's dialogue and attitude which I hoped would make more sense once you understood the true nature of things via the flashbacks, i.e. his jittery attitude in the car with Telly and his talking up of Telly to Marion after the dinner.


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
I don't want to be harsh, and i like the handling, but it does feel like something we've seen before, down to the silk pyjamas etc . Mind you, I think this is a weakness in me, as the real world of film does the similar things so I underplay the normal, but it was a thought of mine.


- Cant argue with that, it very much works within the gangster genre and borrows a lot of its tropes. As I've told others, I binged on The Sopranos a few years back in a couple of weeks and was buzzing to write a gangster piece within that milieu with the relationship of Tony and Christopher from that show being front and center. Hence the similarities in names with Telly and Crispy. There is nothing new here so I hoped a twist would add something to it and give a reason to exist. I thought Tony became a real monster by the end of the series so this was my way of giving him his comeuppance Plus, its just fun to write these characters; their language, bravura, rapport, etc.


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
Ending - funny but I thought this was too soon. We got the king is dead, and expect Telly to go as well, by the last page, but what about the new master? Where is crispys role? Does he take over Pete or is he in with Philly. For me this needed a final confirmation as there had been a lot of changes.


- I didn't think there need to be a clarification about Crispy's role for here on. My assumption was that Telly's crew was more or less wiped out and on the basis of Crispy and Philly's "Except you" exchange I wanted to leave it open, in that Crispy could join Philly's crew, strike out on his own, or just get away altogether as his idealized beliefs in gang ethics are shattered. The main point is that Telly, for all his philosophizing about loyalty, blind or otherwise, got clipped for breaking that very code. And his crew, who he was willing to preserve at any cost, gets destroyed because he couldn't keep his di?k in his pants


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
So, what would I suggest. Well, I would give crispy an extra itch. More than the girl. What's he really want? I'm not sure I got that. Does he want power? Other girls? Respect? Whatever...and how's he gona get it?


Great points. My thinking behind Crispy's motivation is that he worshiped Telly, the guy who took him under his wing, got him off the streets, made him part of the family. He was willing to do anything for him. Even more so since its made clear that the other cronies haven't taken too well to him, see him as a blow in, an outsider. I was aware  it would seem fairly hasty on Crispy's part to double-cross like that so that's why I gave those scenes before Telly enters an icy, tense atmosphere. To Crispy, Telly is the only reason he is with this crew...so when that one link, his mentor, betrays him in worst possible way, his allegiance is severed, he no longer has a reason to stick around. And given how the information is presented to him, via a a rival gang, he grabs the opportunity with both hands.

Also, you learn that Crispy proposed to Marion so he really loved her...and a man with a broken heart is capable of crazy things!


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
'Pecking order' is good in terms of it suggests - since I have chickens - that there is 'one' group, not two. And that it's about where you stand in that group. The parallel with where Crsipy stands, his moment arrives etc. Yet, do we see the final group, no. I would almost conclude a better title could be 'Cockerels'. Constant fight, a desire for position, a movement of power. Turf war etc


- Thanks for the suggestions. I'll definitely consider them because honestly I don't like the title I chose. I asked others who had read it before I posted it for alternatives but never really got anything. I always like a title to work on at least two levels but this is pretty straightforward and simplistic. I particularly like "Cockerals" as its relates to the macho "cock waving" antics of some of the characters. Thanks.


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
I think my overriding suggestion would be...surprise us....more....and then it will stand out


Something to be thinking about cheers. And thanks again for taking the time, Bill, much appreciated.

Point me to anything you want read in exchange.

Col.


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DustinBowcot
Posted: September 5th, 2014, 11:26am Report to Moderator
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Sorry mate, something must have happened as I completely forgot to read this.

There are a few places where I believe the writing could be tightened up but as you're a veteran I won't go there. Instead, I'll concentrate on story.

Pretty straightforward... a dog eat dog story. Told well enough. Nice work.
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Hey Col

Been thinking about this one and the more I do the more I appreciate the deft handling.

In terms of the more factor, I do wonder whether I over play this and indeed could drift out of the genre.

I also think about theme, or message, too often. But it's something I like to see conveyed. This made me think.

One possibility is to title this 'Broken Promises', or something similar. The aim would be to set up the script as thought Pete has broken a promise to Telly and the guys. We then see telly break an unwritten promise to the lad. Cause and effect playing through.

May be Philly could stress he doesn't break Promises? Does this attract the kid as well.

When the lad kills Telly, the lad could end with a comment that he broke his promise to look after him etc

Ie the theme within is that there are consequences for broken promises and in this gangster world we see that amplified.

Hey, just a thought.


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Quoted from IamGlenn
After you read and gave some great thoughts on my work, I thought I'd repay the favour and have a look at one of yours. This was the latest one and the gangster storyline intrigued me. So I gave it a go..

This is some great work. With the amount of characters you used and the few twists at the end it was surprisingly easy to read for me.

The Crispy character was brilliantly done and the payoff at the end involving him was brilliantly executed. He wasn't the only good character but he was obviously the one that stood out most.

I think you said somewhere that you wrote this after watching The Soprano's and that is definitely visibe, which is only a good thing.

The scenes in the backroom were also very well written and I enjoyed them.

Great read and good luck with this. I must check out more of your work.


- Thanks for taking the time and I'm glad it worked for you. The Sopranos were a big influence, perhaps too much but I suppose if you are going to borrow, you should do it from the best.

I've learned in the meantime that "The Dinner" was your first script as I went through some of your replies on its discussion board so extra kudos for you, a very impressive maiden voyage! You can only improve.

Thanks again.


Dustin


Quoted from DustinBowcot
Sorry mate, something must have happened as I completely forgot to read this.


- No hassle, you were never obligated but I appreciate you checking it out.


Quoted from DustinBowcot
There are a few places where I believe the writing could be tightened up but as you're a veteran I won't go there. Instead, I'll concentrate on story.


- I'm far from a veteran, or at least a very bad one, we can always learn. I know the dialogue runs a bit long at times particularly with Telly but that's the kind of character he is, he's a leader, likes to hear his own voice, get up on that soapbox, etc.

Thanks again for taking the time. Cheers.

Col.


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Colkurtz8
Posted: September 5th, 2014, 1:08pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Reef Dreamer
In terms of the more factor, I do wonder whether I over play this and indeed could drift out of the genre.


- Ya it all depends, your comments were totally valid. I just hoped that between the shunning of Crispy by the cronies and the Marion/Telly betrayal there would be enough in that to justify his actions. It is something I've constantly wrestled with regarding this script though.


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
I also think about theme, or message, too often. But it's something I like to see conveyed. This made me think.


- That is something to be careful of alright. Theme and character are what usually come to me first as they are almost always inextricably linked, one informs the other. The story then develops from that, as in how can I illustrate this in a dramatic way.


Quoted from Reef Dreamer
One possibility is to title this 'Broken Promises', or something similar. The aim would be to set up the script as thought Pete has broken a promise to Telly and the guys. We then see telly break an unwritten promise to the lad. Cause and effect playing through.

May be Philly could stress he doesn't break Promises? Does this attract the kid as well.

When the lad kills Telly, the lad could end with a comment that he broke his promise to look after him etc

Ie the theme within is that there are consequences for broken promises and in this gangster world we see that amplified.

Hey, just a thought.


- I liked that suggestion for the title in that it makes you think its referring to one thing but equally applies to the reveal at the end. Although, its not like Telly ever said ""I promise not to fu?k you girlfriend" and then went and did it but I know what you mean.

I also like the idea of Philly saying something to the effect of "I won't screw you like he did" or "I don't break promises" which would galvanize Crispy's trust in him. Although my thinking is that Philly sees himself as doing a favour to Crispy by coming to him first for co-operation rather then just going ahead with the wiping out so he doesn't think he has to convince him or try to persuade him to play ball. Its more like,"Here is a way out, you help us, take it or leave. Either way, we are coming for Telly's gang."

I will also be the first to admit that the plan does work very smoothly, as in movie-plan-smooth Crispy could've easily turned on him and told Telly but we know because of Crispy's place within the crew, his relationship with Telly compared to the cronies and his somewhat unrequited love for Marion that he is going to carry out Philly's wishes.

Thanks for the extra comments.

Col.


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Stumpzian
Posted: September 27th, 2014, 3:38pm Report to Moderator
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This is first rate. Believable, great dialogue, wonderful name choices. My favorite -- Tweezers.



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Stumpzian
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Since  my previous post, I've been reading the other comments and your responses. Two things I want to say (as a newcomer):
1. I'm impressed with the depth of the comments. It shows me that a really good script will generate a lot of discussion.
2. I'm impressed by how well you know your characters.

P.S. There was some back and forth about the title, and Reef Dreamer mentioned having chickens (I do, too). Anyway, this got me thinking about KFC; that is, you are known as the "colonel" and you have a character named Crispy -- as in Extra Crispy?



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Colkurtz8
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Henry

Thank you for checking this out and giving it a bump. Glad you liked it and the names. I had a bit of fun with them on this one.

Ha, I like your title idea although its probably too Crispy orientated (as in the character, not the texture ) Yeah, he is the protagonist but its not all about him.

Also, I'd prefer if you didn't equate my username with that vomit inducing fast food joint. Different colonel entirely, though probably just as evil when its all said and done.

Thanks again.

Col.


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Stumpzian
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I didn't mean to make it sound like a title suggestion. Just a bit of observational frivolity on my part. (And one could never mistake Kurtz for that other colonel.) Cheers.



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CoopBazinga
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The first thought I had after reading this was that I’ve read or watched this story a million times before, and although that number isn’t correct – the fact remains that this is overall a tired story that doesn’t add much to an already well trodden genre, or deliver any surprises that could have given the story some edge.

In fact, by the end I was rather disappointed in the route this story took, as it didn’t deliver the character piece I guess I expected. There was a potential good relationship between mentor and apprentice that never really got going so it made the conclusion a little flat.

It dwindled too much for me on other characters like Fergus and the crew when it should have concentrated more on Crispy and his relationship with Telly and Marion. By strengthening this relationship, it would have made the ending stronger, and possibly added some weight to Crispy’s decision to kill Telly which for me was rather weak. Crispy didn’t seem to flinch in pulling off this move when it should have weighed on him more. Yes, Telly has betrayed him, but he’s also the man Crispy respects more than anyone.

On the other hand, his lack of hesitation could have been more to do with greed and power, this kid wants to be top boss, but this personality trait was never hinted at throughout so I don’t believe that’s his reasoning.

Back to straight old revenge then, which is fine, but it kinda hurts the story when we only find out that out with a few pages to go. I would have like to see Crispy find out the revelation earlier, which he does to be fair, but the non-linear story telling means we don’t know this until near the end which I thought hurt the story. I would like to see how this changed Crispy and his loyalty to Telly – did he question what he did? Maybe contemplated forgiving him? What was his relationship with Marion like? He asked her to marry him, so he loved her, but was they high school sweethearts or a fling that turned serious? What I’m saying is – who’s more important in Crispy’s life? That’s a question he must ask himself as it reflects in his decision. Maybe both weren’t that important as he killed one and had the other killed. Maybe he thought about this long and hard but we’ll never know because we didn’t see him go through this.

I was talking about power before and this being Crispy’s reasoning, but I have no doubt it must be Telly’s. Why else would he do this? I like this angle and would like to see his dilemma also, especially with Marion – he sleeps with her because he can – but does he question this as his relationship with Crispy develops? As he gets closer to the kid, does he become aware that he doesn’t want to continue with Marion as this will only hurt Crispy, or he possibly has feelings for Marion? Again, it’s left a little unanswered as we spent more time with Fergus and the boys playing poker.

I think one of the reasons for this is because the story spends too much time on the whole “taking down Pete” side plot which is important but needs to be more in the background for the Telly/Crispy relationship to flourish. Also, some of the dialogue at this junction could be looked at – I mean, Telly telling the boys that Pete is their “founder and leader since time began” was just weird.  The jealous angle was also a little off – yeah, guys like this can be jealous, but to say it made these guys feel like they should be in Glee rather than the Sopranos. Maybe they don’t like the trust Telly has in this outsider as he’s the newest to the crew. Basically they don’t trust him rather than being jealous of his relationship with Telly. Just a thought.

I was also a little puzzled about where and when this was all taking place – at one point I thought this was set in the 1920’s because the guys were transporting cigarettes which is entirely possibly nowadays of course – it just immediately sent me back to a time of prohibition which I understand was alcohol but that’s the image it craved up. No big deal, but where are we? I guess it’s not important but the location of “off licence” immediately took me to London but our guys are dropping bodies into a lake from a cliff rather than the Thames. All little things that came to mind while reading – I think you could be clearer and possibly make the location a character of its own which could help the atmosphere of this tale.

Overall, these are just observations and ideas but I do understand this is a short and you can’t get every little detail in. There is more than enough story here for a feature, but like I said before, does it add much to the genre for it to be worth it?

Nothing much to complain in terms of writing, a few little niggles like the lack of “the” or “and” but I would put that down to preference on my part. Didn’t understand the way you used some of the ellipses in your action either, but again – preference. I spotted one typo on page 9 – slit should be split and there was a part near the end with Marion that should have been an EXT scene.

In saying all this, I though the story had a good pace and was entertaining enough for me to stick with it. I just thought that it could have been stronger, by which I mean the characters and their relationships being better explored. In doing this, I think this would not only be entertaining but also deliver a good character driven piece.

Best of luck with it.
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LeeOConnor
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Hi Howard,

From one Irish man to another well done.
I think you hit the nail on the head with this one, it has a very modern feel of a Mafia family. The youngsters not showing respect to the rules and old timers etc, nice one.
Well written with good visuals and character descriptions.
The story flowed well and kept me reading on.

Could there be something more at the end? Personally I don't think so, you have gone the subtle route of Mafia stories, not over doing it with the killings, deals and operations that take place, everything is planned to perfection by these particular organisations, so we'll done for not ruining it with action packed mainstream crap.



Good luck with this

Lee
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Colkurtz8
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Coop

First off thanks for your detailed comments, much appreciated. I know my responses are as long as a wet weekend so feel free to skim or ignore. I believe if someone has taken the time to read and review my script so extensively the least I can do is treat them with mutual regard. But please, don't feel obligated.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
The first thought I had after reading this was that I’ve read or watched this story a million times before, and although that number isn’t correct – the fact remains that this is overall a tired story that doesn’t add much to an already well trodden genre, or deliver any surprises that could have given the story some edge.


- Yeah it’s a genre piece, you would've seen this before for sure. Like most of us I love gangster films but had never really written a gangster script before. This was my attempt. I don’t think I could ever write a feature because it’s such a well worn genre, impossible not to fall into cliché. So a short satisfied the urge and it was fun to write. It was something I hoped would entertain with the twist maybe catching people by surprise…but not everyone it seems


Quoted from CoopBazinga
In fact, by the end I was rather disappointed in the route this story took, as it didn’t deliver the character piece I guess I expected. There was a potential good relationship between mentor and apprentice that never really got going so it made the conclusion a little flat.


- Sorry to hear that. I tried to include as much back and forth (well really it’s one way with Telly, the mentor, doing all the talking) between the two leads as well as having a story working around that, driving it, providing the motivations. Just so it would be more than a mere two hander while keeping it under a reasonable page length. I wanted to convey through Telly and Crispy’s interactions their dynamic, to establish the relationships without having it outstay its welcome. Crispy’s apparent obedience and general laconic personality in those scenes compared to Telly’s talkativeness was to (hopefully) make the twist more surprising and provoke the theme of loyalty, misplaced or otherwise.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
It dwindled too much for me on other characters like Fergus and the crew when it should have concentrated more on Crispy and his relationship with Telly and Marion. By strengthening this relationship, it would have made the ending stronger, and possibly added some weight to Crispy’s decision to kill Telly which for me was rather weak.


- Fair point but the reason why I showed Crispy interact with the other members of the crew was to reinforce the notion that he hasn't really been accepted by them. There is meant to be an underlying tension in those scenes, they’re always looking to put him in his place (especially Fergus) they treat him with derision, suspicion, he's still an outsider in their eyes. (You find out later that Telly caught him jacking his car's sat nav) Telly is the only one who seems to have faith in him (is this genuine? does he seem him as a possible heir or is it guilt over him fu?king his girlfriend? I leave open for interpretation) Telly is his "in" with this crew, the one who supports him, looks out for him...so when he finds out he has betrayed him in the worst possible manner (thus totally undercutting his ramblings about loyalty) he realises that his connections to this crew have been irrevocably severed, there is nothing keeping him loyal anymore and this is enough to make him readily accept Philly's proposal. Also, during Marion and Telly’s post sex scene, we find out that Crispy had proposed to her which indicates how much he felt for her.

I was well aware of making the motivations strong enough for Crispy to consider a doublecross because it is a big decision for him to make. I hoped this revelation and the crew politics would be enough.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
Crispy didn’t seem to flinch in pulling off this move when it should have weighed on him more. Yes, Telly has betrayed him, but he’s also the man Crispy respects more than anyone./quote]

- Well, I thought I made it pretty clear in Crispy’s demeanour, both in Telly’s car when he’s furtively looking in his wing mirror and exhibiting uneasy body language  and when he’s standing behind him about to pull the trigger that he’s apprehensive, anxious. I hoped this would further mislead the reader into thinking he’s still recovering from taking out Pete, which he is, put he’s also anticipating the second murder he’s gonna hafta commit that night...which we don’t know yet.

[quote=CoopBazinga]On the other hand, his lack of hesitation could have been more to do with greed and power, this kid wants to be top boss, but this personality trait was never hinted at throughout so I don’t believe that’s his reasoning. .


- True, this is one thing we can agree on I never saw Crispy as an attain-power-at-all-costs kind of guy but more for the reasons I’ve just stated above.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
Back to straight old revenge then, which is fine, but it kinda hurts the story when we only find out that out with a few pages to go. I would have like to see Crispy find out the revelation earlier, which he does to be fair, but the non-linear story telling means we don’t know this until near the end which I thought hurt the story.


- I can concede that the flashbacks and the true nature of events come thick and fast at the end, it can be a little disorientating, hard to follow but I reckon it would work much more fluidly on screen. I just tried to make it as concise and readable on the page. Also, the reason why I left the revelation till the end was for the good old fashioned finish with a flourish conclusion, the dramatic finale, etc.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
I would like to see how this changed Crispy and his loyalty to Telly – did he question what he did? Maybe contemplated forgiving him? What was his relationship with Marion like? He asked her to marry him, so he loved her, but was they high school sweethearts or a fling that turned serious? What I’m saying is – who’s more important in Crispy’s life? That’s a question he must ask himself as it reflects in his decision. Maybe both weren’t that important as he killed one and had the other killed. Maybe he thought about this long and hard but we’ll never know because we didn’t see him go through this.


- Good points, and as you know I tried to show the state of Marion and Crispy’s relationship through us finding out that Marion turned down his proposal. Its perhaps slightly unrequited, one loving the other more. Was it always like this? Is it because of Telly? I left this somewhat open but I attempted to give the impression that Marion was into Telly more than he was into her in their scenes together. Telly even asks her why did she say no and she just laughs it off. There are subtle signals given but nothing definite, this was intentional to keep it aloof, undefined. But we do know that Crispy loved her.

Both were very important to him, probably the two most important people in his life, so the fact that they both betrayed him together hurts all the more, thus providing adequate fuel for revenge.

You bring up a good point about how this knowledge of finding out his missus and boss were carrying on affected him. I dropped in subtle hints that only really come apparent once you know the twist, at least I hope they do. In his scenes with the crew members Crispy does exude a certain guarded confidence, he holds his nerve, doesn’t take the bait while hitting Fergus back with a sly  comeback because he knows he’ll have the last laugh. Also, in the car scene with Marion when he is talking up Telly, you must remember that this is spoken with the knowledge of Telly’s betrayal. This is why he layers on the compliments, makes special mention of his desire to impress him, to be given the chance to prove his worth. My thinking is that Crispy is saying this to not only throw off any notion Marion might have that Crispy knows of their affair but also in the hops that she might relay these sentiments to Telly thus get him the gig of taking out the boss, to gain favour. Because by now Crispy knows Pete is going to get whacked so what better way to get taken along then to suck up to Telly, massage his ego.

Again because it is a short there is only so much depth you can go into with establishing character relationships. That is why I tried to streamline it like this, find an economical way of conveying the point without belabouring the script’s pace. Clearly that didn’t work for you (and others) and that’s cool.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
I was talking about power before and this being Crispy’s reasoning, but I have no doubt it must be Telly’s. Why else would he do this? I like this angle and would like to see his dilemma also, especially with Marion – he sleeps with her because he can – but does he question this as his relationship with Crispy develops? As he gets closer to the kid, does he become aware that he doesn’t want to continue with Marion as this will only hurt Crispy, or he possibly has feelings for Marion? Again, it’s left a little unanswered as we spent more time with Fergus and the boys playing poker.


- Telly would have met Crispy before meeting Marion and their bond has been strengthening before the script’s events, culminating in Telly entrusting him with such an important hit. This is also what pisses off the other crew members, they feel slighted, stepped over. In terms of Telly and Marion’s relationship, during their post sex scene, there is an element of Marion being more into him then the other way around. Which is the opposite of Marion and Crispy’s relationship. As I already mentioned this is partially addressed when Telly doesn’t seem too affected or invested in Marion’s admission of Crispy’s wedding proposal. He’s noticeably cold and standoffish, indifferent. When he does ask why she said no to the proposal she plays a coy mind game of her own by deflecting the question with an ambivalent grin.

Again, this feeds into the idea of Telly being the alpha male, the king of the hill, the one in control.  And it’s this hubris that leads to his downfall. Like you say, he’s doing it because he can, a total double standard coming from the guy espousing loyalty.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
I think one of the reasons for this is because the story spends too much time on the whole “taking down Pete” side plot which is important but needs to be more in the background for the Telly/Crispy relationship to flourish. Also, some of the dialogue at this junction could be looked at – I mean, Telly telling the boys that Pete is their “founder and leader since time began” was just weird.


- Telly’s dialogue is a little long winded but this is the kind of character he is, he’s the one in charge, the one leading this mutiny so he needs to persuade his troops. I didn’t make him verbose out of indulgence but more as a character trait. He must acknowledge Pete’s role in their crew’s formation, appreciate what he’s done while getting the point across that’s it’s time for the old man to move aside…something he’s not prepared to do voluntarily so action must be taken. Yes, Telly is on his soapbox here but I felt that was true to his role within the story.

Maybe I spent too much time on that, I guess it comes down to what I felt was necessary to make it believable that these events would transpire in the way they do i.e. the intercepted cigarette load, the meeting of opposing crews, Telly’s “pitch” to his cronies.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
The jealous angle was also a little off – yeah, guys like this can be jealous, but to say it made these guys feel like they should be in Glee rather than the Sopranos. Maybe they don’t like the trust Telly has in this outsider as he’s the newest to the crew. Basically they don’t trust him rather than being jealous of his relationship with Telly. Just a thought.


- I have to disagree. If Soprano’s thought us anything, it’s how petulant and catty gangsters can be. One-upmanship is a big part of that dynamic, always wanting to please the top dog, ascend the ranks. I drew a lot of parallels between Fergus and Paulie from the Sopranos who was always up Tony’s hole, his lapdog, ready to stick up for him wherever possible. That relationship did deteriorate over the course of the show but this is a short so I simply couldn’t even begin to consider working in that particular arc.

Crispy is a newcomer, a nobody, he’s young and Telly has taken a shine to him. So much so that he’s been given the biggest responsibility possible of taking out the Don. I think it’s understandable that there is going to be some jealousy, some spite on the part of the cronies, who’ve paid their dues, done their time. Again, this feeds into the theme of loyalty which you correctly pointed out, isn’t exactly anything new in the gangster genre.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
I was also a little puzzled about where and when this was all taking place – at one point I thought this was set in the 1920’s because the guys were transporting cigarettes which is entirely possibly nowadays of course – it just immediately sent me back to a time of prohibition which I understand was alcohol but that’s the image it craved up.


- Ha, I can see how you got that impression but yeah it’s well possible today too. In fact with the ever increasing price of cigarettes, it’s becoming more common again…er, so I’ve heard…

CONT'D...


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Colkurtz8
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CONT'D...


Quoted from CoopBazinga
No big deal, but where are we? I guess it’s not important but the location of “off licence” immediately took me to London but our guys are dropping bodies into a lake from a cliff rather than the Thames. All little things that came to mind while reading – I think you could be clearer and possibly make the location a character of its own which could help the atmosphere of this tale.


- A few have mentioned this and it’s a valid point. I try to keep my scripts as geographically neutral as possible, unless it informs the story. Yes, gangster films are automatically linked to America and conjure up images of Joe Pesci saying the “fu?k” every four words but I think this story could happen anywhere, I intentionally kept it small and its location non-specific.

I’m Irish and we call liquor stores “off licences” too, always have as far as I can remember.

It’s true that having it set in a recognizable location can add a character, I totally subscribe to that belief but my logic behind keeping my scripts away from that trapping is for producibility reasons. Yes, I know this isn’t exactly the most low budget 19 pager ever but having it wedded to a particular location wouldn’t exactly help matters in that regard either.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
Overall, these are just observations and ideas but I do understand this is a short and you can’t get every little detail in. There is more than enough story here for a feature, but like I said before, does it add much to the genre for it to be worth it?


- Of course and they are greatly appreciated and taken on board, I owe you one big time for providing such thoughtful notes. Is there enough here for a feature? I don’t think so for the very reason you give, it is too generic and principally hinges on that final reveal. That’s why I kept it as a short, a self contained story. I have no desire to expand it.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
Nothing much to complain in terms of writing, a few little niggles like the lack of “the” or “and” but I would put that down to preference on my part. Didn’t understand the way you used some of the ellipses in your action either, but again – preference


- Yeah, I stay away from those in the prose when I can, particularly “and”. To me a comma adds punch and flow, while shortening the read, all good attributes in my opinion. I like it when I see them in other scripts so I use them in my own. Same with the ellipses, great for phrasing and breaking up the action without going to a new line. Like you say, it’s just preference, whatever works for you.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
I spotted one typo on page 9 – slit should be split and there was a part near the end with Marion that should have been an EXT scene.


- Great catches on both counts, thank you, sir.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
In saying all this, I though the story had a good pace and was entertaining enough for me to stick with it. I just thought that it could have been stronger, by which I mean the characters and their relationships being better explored. In doing this, I think this would not only be entertaining but also deliver a good character driven piece.


- Cool, I respect your opinion and completely see where you’re coming from. Sorry it didn’t work for you but at least I got some helpful notes out of it so I had my fun. Nah, only joking, thanks again for taking the time and please direct me to anything of yours you want read on or off the boards, only glad to return the favour.

Col.


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Colkurtz8
Posted: October 6th, 2014, 1:16pm Report to Moderator
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Lee

Thanks for checking this out, man, and yes, always good to see another Celt on the boards. Not enough of us around on here unfortunately, at least that I know of.


Quoted from LeeOConnor
Could there be something more at the end? Personally I don't think so, you have gone the subtle route of Mafia stories, not over doing it with the killings, deals and operations that take place, everything is planned to perfection by these particular organisations, so we'll done for not ruining it with action packed mainstream cr**


- Yeah, as I've admitted in other posts that the double-cross does come off rather too well, too smoothly, "movie-well" I like to call it but not "Now You See Me-well" at least I tried to keep it somewhat plausible that the pieces would fit if things went according to plan.

I actually do have another gangster type piece written which is much more character driven then this with less of the generic tropes you mention that feature more prominently here.

Glad you got some enjoyment out of it anyway, cheers.

Col.


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CoopBazinga
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Quoted from Colkurtz8
It was something I hoped would entertain with the twist maybe catching people by surprise…but not everyone it seems


And it was entertaining so you should be pleased with that aspect. I personally didn’t think it was a twist ending, hence not being caught by surprise. I can’t think of many gangster flicks that do end with a twist – more like the rise and downfall of a person or empire as is case here in a way.


Quoted from Colkurtz8
- Sorry to hear that. I tried to include as much back and forth (well really it’s one way with Telly, the mentor, doing all the talking) between the two leads as well as having a story working around that, driving it, providing the motivations. Just so it would be more than a mere two hander while keeping it under a reasonable page length. I wanted to convey through Telly and Crispy’s interactions their dynamic, to establish the relationships without having it outstay its welcome. Crispy’s apparent obedience and general laconic personality in those scenes compared to Telly’s talkativeness was to (hopefully) make the twist more surprising and provoke the theme of loyalty, misplaced or otherwise.


That’s the problems with shorts I guess as you’re trying to tie in so many story aspects into a smaller page length. You say a story around that key relationship and I understand that but while it does drive the story, I don’t think it really provides the motivation for Crispy at all when it comes to its conclusion. I would also argue that it never motivated Telly into sleeping with Marion which is the key event here – not Pete’s takedown or the feud with Philly – it’s the betrayal and that is the story.

I actually thought Crispy’s laconic personality was more to do with the fact that he just killed a man for the first time – you meant their scene in the car right?


Quoted from Colkurtz8
Fair point but the reason why I showed Crispy interact with the other members of the crew was to reinforce the notion that he hasn't really been accepted by them. There is meant to be an underlying tension in those scenes, they’re always looking to put him in his place (especially Fergus) they treat him with derision, suspicion, he's still an outsider in their eyes.


And it worked for what it’s worth – I thought just one scene would have been enough so there would be more room to concentrate on the key relationship. The two main scenes in the back office could have easily been tied together but that’s just my opinion. I also thought it was a much bigger crew after the meeting at the warehouse so I initially didn’t think Crispy would care what these three thought, they’re just a small cog in a bigger wheel. I also want to say that I never got the impression that they were suspicious of Cripsy, and maybe that is something you could heighten as it works rather well with what Crispy is about to pull off.


Quoted from Colkurtz8
Telly is his "in" with this crew, the one who supports him, looks out for him...so when he finds out he has betrayed him in the worst possible manner (thus totally undercutting his ramblings about loyalty) he realises that his connections to this crew have been irrevocably severed, there is nothing keeping him loyal anymore and this is enough to make him readily accept Philly's proposal. Also, during Marion and Telly’s post sex scene, we find out that Crispy had proposed to her which indicates how much he felt for her.


I wonder if rather than working with Philly, that telling Pete about what’s coming would have hurt Telly more? Not only does he fail, as in he doesn’t become the king he desired, but he finds out Crispy’s betrayal. This also saves Crispy from killing Pete which he doesn’t have to do – this was another reason why I questioned his greed motivation because killing Pete only serves in helping Philly – Pete had nothing to do with Telly and Marion’s relationship.


Quoted from Colkurtz8
- I can concede that the flashbacks and the true nature of events come thick and fast at the end, it can be a little disorientating, hard to follow but I reckon it would work much more fluidly on screen. I just tried to make it as concise and readable on the page. Also, the reason why I left the revelation till the end was for the good old fashioned finish with a flourish conclusion, the dramatic finale, etc.


You’re probably right – some things definitely work better on screen than they do on paper. I do understand your reasoning, really I do, but how good would it have been if we knew that Crispy had known for longer and then he comes to that moment at the end – a decision he’s been agonizing about. He’s got the gun aimed at Telly, he hesitates – what will his decision be… and then fade to black. Damn, a lot of readers would hate you of course!

No, I just thought there would be a moment of pause, reflection… something. He wasn’t shooting a pesky cat that’s kept him all night, but his mentor, friend, someone he (possibly) loves? Not in a gay way of course, not that there’s anything wrong with that.


Quoted from Colkurtz8
Both were very important to him, probably the two most important people in his life, so the fact that they both betrayed him together hurts all the more, thus providing adequate fuel for revenge.


Revenge is sweet but what does he gain at the end of it all? I wonder if he considered keeping Marion alive? Did he love her enough to never tell her that he know about the affair – Telly’s dead, and they can be together happy, or was he scared that he would never be able to tame her? See this is one of my problems, I over think things – you could never show all this in a short, but even adding a little more depth to Crispy, and show a little bit more of his struggle after the revelation would help.


Quoted from Colkurtz8
You bring up a good point about how this knowledge of finding out his missus and boss were carrying on affected him. I dropped in subtle hints that only really come apparent once you know the twist, at least I hope they do. In his scenes with the crew members Crispy does exude a certain guarded confidence, he holds his nerve, doesn’t take the bait while hitting Fergus back with a sly  comeback because he knows he’ll have the last laugh. Also, in the car scene with Marion when he is talking up Telly, you must remember that this is spoken with the knowledge of Telly’s betrayal. This is why he layers on the compliments, makes special mention of his desire to impress him, to be given the chance to prove his worth. My thinking is that Crispy is saying this to not only throw off any notion Marion might have that Crispy knows of their affair but also in the hops that she might relay these sentiments to Telly thus get him the gig of taking out the boss, to gain favour. Because by now Crispy knows Pete is going to get whacked so what better way to get taken along then to suck up to Telly, massage his ego.

Again because it is a short there is only so much depth you can go into with establishing character relationships. That is why I tried to streamline it like this, find an economical way of conveying the point without belabouring the script’s pace. Clearly that didn’t work for you (and others) and that’s cool.


Does Crispy have the last laugh? Doing what he does can also be the downfall of a man – hence, why I bring up Marion’s death and what he accomplishes with this act. Sometimes the best revenge can be to be “the better man” but I obviously understand that such a thing would never work in such a story.

I think you have good faith in your readers – most will never pick up on such things as you’ve explained. I do think that you’ve done an excellent job now you’ve explained it but some of that was lost on me. When it concluded, I had forgotten about some of these exchanges which may make me a lazy reader, but also because I was on a different mindset. It’s like the scene in the car at the beginning and end – I thought Crispy was on edge because he just killed a man for the first time, not because what he was about to do. Like you said before, some things will work much better on screen and I think this is another one of those cases possibly.


Quoted from Colkurtz8
Telly’s dialogue is a little long winded but this is the kind of character he is, he’s the one in charge, the one leading this mutiny so he needs to persuade his troops. I didn’t make him verbose out of indulgence but more as a character trait. He must acknowledge Pete’s role in their crew’s formation, appreciate what he’s done while getting the point across that’s it’s time for the old man to move aside…something he’s not prepared to do voluntarily so action must be taken. Yes, Telly is on his soapbox here but I felt that was true to his role within the story.

Maybe I spent too much time on that, I guess it comes down to what I felt was necessary to make it believable that these events would transpire in the way they do i.e. the intercepted cigarette load, the meeting of opposing crews, Telly’s “pitch” to his cronies.


I don’t mind that’s it long winded – in fact, I think this works as he tries to show his power over his troops. It was more with some of the wording like “the beginning of time” and “founder” these words just struck me as odd – there was a few others that I can’t remember but they stuck out to me. He didn’t seem the character to be saying such words. It’s like one of those teenage kids that hang out around shops at night said “that’s ghastly” instead of “that’s rank” It wouldn’t sound right. On the other hand, I’m not a gangster, nor have I ever affiliated with one so how would I know how they talk – all like Joe Pesci, right?


Quoted from Colkurtz8
- I have to disagree. If Soprano’s thought us anything, it’s how petulant and catty gangsters can be.


That’s fair enough and of course gangsters are human beings and suffer the same emotions – it just seemed like an odd choice of word for these types of guys. Please don’t disagree with me again – ever!


Quoted from Colkurtz8
- Ha, I can see how you got that impression but yeah it’s well possible today too. In fact with the ever increasing price of cigarettes, it’s becoming more common again…er, so I’ve heard…


At least make them E-Cigs! It would work as well because I think they’re banned in some countries – I remember you couldn’t buy them in Australia originally, that’s probably changed now.


Quoted from Colkurtz8
I’m Irish and we call liquor stores “off licences” too, always have as far as I can remember.


I’ve never been to Ireland – we call them bottle shops or bottle-O’s over here in Oz.


Quoted from Colkurtz8
Yeah, I stay away from those in the prose when I can, particularly “and”. To me a comma adds punch and flow, while shortening the read, all good attributes in my opinion. I like it when I see them in other scripts so I use them in my own. Same with the ellipses, great for phrasing and breaking up the action without going to a new line. Like you say, it’s just preference, whatever works for you.


Exactly this – we all have our own technique and it won’t work for some readers but that doesn’t make them wrong. Please calm down on your ellipses though.


Quoted from Colkurtz8
Cool, I respect your opinion.


Thanks, not many do… ask the missus.


Quoted from Colkurtz8
Sorry it didn’t work for you but at least I got some helpful notes out of it so I had my fun. Nah, only joking, thanks again for taking the time and please direct me to anything of yours you want read on or off the boards, only glad to return the favour.


No problem whatsoever, hopefully I was of some help. It’s not that it didn’t work for me, I guess I would have just tackled it differently but I want to repeat that it was entertaining and I enjoyed moments of your story – I just think it could be stronger than it is.

Again, best of luck with it and sorry for rambling on.
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Colkurtz8
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Coop

Thank you for your further comments.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
I personally didn’t think it was a twist ending, hence not being caught by surprise. I can’t think of many gangster flicks that do end with a twist – more like the rise and downfall of a person or empire as is case here in a way.


- True, most gangster films are a rise and fall which is why I tried to do something a little different here. That up and down does occur but it’s shared between Crispy's rise (of sorts) and Telly's demise.

Are you saying you anticipated Crispy's collusion with Philly and their orchestration of the cigarette knock off to undermine Pete's leadership thus speed up Telly's decision to take him out coming, (phew…deep breath) before it happened on the page?


Quoted from CoopBazinga
You say a story around that key relationship and I understand that but while it does drive the story, I don’t think it really provides the motivation for Crispy at all when it comes to its conclusion.


- Naturally I have to disagree since I framed the story that way by showing the friction between Crispy with the other gang members in comparison to his closeness to Telly which is ripped apart when he finds out about him screwing his girlfriend. And that's fine, it’s your opinion.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
I would also argue that it never motivated Telly into sleeping with Marion which is the key event here – not Pete’s takedown or the feud with Philly – it’s the betrayal and that is the story.


- Forgive me but I'm a little confused by this comment. It reads like you're questioning Telly's motivations for sleeping with Marion. Or are you talking about Crispy's reasoning to double-cross?


Quoted from CoopBazinga
I actually thought Crispy’s laconic personality was more to do with the fact that he just killed a man for the first time – you meant their scene in the car right?


- Yeah the car scene which bookends the script. Yes, his fidgety, nervous attitude is in part due to the fact that he has just killed Pete. Telly's opening dialogue suggests he has "earned his stripes" and in the subsequent scene we get clarification of what he means. At that point, it’s pretty clear why Crispy is shaken up but I liked the idea of, by the end, finding out there is a more pressing burden on his mind that we, or Telly, aren't aware of.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
And it worked for what it’s worth – I thought just one scene would have been enough so there would be more room to concentrate on the key relationship. The two main scenes in the back office could have easily been tied together but that’s just my opinion.


- Good point in that those scenes could be combined, you're not that first to say that. My reasoning behind having two was that the first would be Telly proposing they whack Philly while in the second he tells them when it’s going to happen. I thought by showing two scenes that begin without Telly present, instead showing their treatment of Crispy, and how that switches as soon as Telly enters, that change of atmosphere when they all shut up and let the capo do the talking, would be a good way to illustrate the crew’s dynamic. If a gun were put to my head to reduce this to below a certain page count then yeah, those scenes would be the first to be scrutinized for edits.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
I also thought it was a much bigger crew after the meeting at the warehouse so I initially didn’t think Crispy would care what these three thought, they’re just a small cog in a bigger wheel.


- Yeah, they are a bigger outfit which I implied in the warehouse meeting but I wouldn't be able to show them all so I just focused on the select few close to Telly. Again, think The Sopranos where we only get to know a few members intimately.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
I also want to say that I never got the impression that they were suspicious of Cripsy, and maybe that is something you could heighten as it works rather well with what Crispy is about to pull off.


- When I said suspicious I meant more of a “who the fu?k does this guy think he is” kind of attitude towards him but you’re right it could be something to heighten. Except for his retorts to Fergus's slagging I played Crispy relatively benign and nonthreatening around them, the newbie, so they (or the reader) would never suspect him of plotting against the crew.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
I wonder if rather than working with Philly, that telling Pete about what’s coming would have hurt Telly more? Not only does he fail, as in he doesn’t become the king he desired, but he finds out Crispy’s betrayal.


- Good suggestion although what could Pete do to hurt Telly who, by now, is really in control of the crew? Crispy would be signing his own death warrant if he aligned himself with Pete.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
This also saves Crispy from killing Pete which he doesn’t have to do – this was another reason why I questioned his greed motivation because killing Pete only serves in helping Philly – Pete had nothing to do with Telly and Marion’s relationship.


- Because that’s part of the Philly and Crispy’s deal. Philly handles the underlings while Crispy, because of his closeness to Telly and having being selected to do the Pete hit, is in a unique position to take out the two top members. It’s co-ordinated and simultaneous wiping out of the Telly’s crew’s key figures so they’ll have no chance to retaliate. Think Michael Corleone’s maneuvering at the end of The Godfather.

Some people have asked if Crispy will be assimilated into Philly’s crew and given a good position after his cooperation but I’m not so sure, I left that open. I could very well see him leaving that life altogether which he can do since Telly’s crew is obliterated so it’s not like anyone will be after him. His romanticized notions of gang loyalty/ethics/code etc have been shattered now, exposed to be all bullsh?t after what has gone down.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
but how good would it have been if we knew that Crispy had known for longer and then he comes to that moment at the end – a decision he’s been agonizing about. He’s got the gun aimed at Telly, he hesitates – what will his decision be… and then fade to black. Damn, a lot of readers would hate you of course!

No, I just thought there would be a moment of pause, reflection… something. He wasn’t shooting a pesky cat that’s kept him all night, but his mentor, friend, someone he (possibly) loves? Not in a gay way of course, not that there’s anything wrong with that.


- Ha, yeah, a pure Christopher Nolan party trick! Nah, I hear ya, there could be a moment’s hesitation alright but you must remember that back at their hangout, serious plans have already been initiated, he can’t really back out now.

- I hoped that by the end the reader would want to see Telly get taken out. He blabbers on about loyalty and all that throughout the script and his allegiance to the outfit when in fact he’s a cheating, disloyal scumbag himself, a pure hypocrite. I‘ve said it in another post that as much as I loved the character of Tony Soprano he became a monster by the end of it, in my opinion anyway. I could still be engaged with him and see him as one of drama’s greatest incarnations but what a cu?t! And since his uppunvce never came in that show this was my way of dishing it out to him


Quoted from CoopBazinga
Revenge is sweet but what does he gain at the end of it all? I wonder if he considered keeping Marion alive? Did he love her enough to never tell her that he know about the affair – Telly’s dead, and they can be together happy, or was he scared that he would never be able to tame her? See this is one of my problems, I over think things – you could never show all this in a short, but even adding a little more depth to Crispy, and show a little bit more of his struggle after the revelation would help.

Does Crispy have the last laugh? Doing what he does can also be the downfall of a man – hence, why I bring up Marion’s death and what he accomplishes with this act. Sometimes the best revenge can be to be “the better man” but I obviously understand that such a thing would never work in such a story.  


- That’s a fair point and I guess it comes down to how well you would take it if it were to happen to you and would you be able to go on sharing a life with a person you know has screwed around behind your back? It would actually make an interesting scene for Crispy to come home to break the news that everyone is dead, including Telly and watch him gauge her reaction, gain some perverse enjoyment from it. But then you have to wonder where their relationship is going to go from here. Not exactly a solid foundation for a happy couple. I do take your point though.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
I don’t mind that’s it long winded – in fact, I think this works as he tries to show his power over his troops. It was more with some of the wording like “the beginning of time” and “founder” these words just struck me as odd – there was a few others that I can’t remember but they stuck out to me. He didn’t seem the character to be saying such words. It’s like one of those teenage kids that hang out around shops at night said “that’s ghastly” instead of “that’s rank” It wouldn’t sound right. On the other hand, I’m not a gangster, nor have I ever affiliated with one so how would I know how they talk – all like Joe Pesci, right?
That’s fair enough and of course gangsters are human beings and suffer the same emotions – it just seemed like an odd choice of word for these types of guys. Please don’t disagree with me again – ever!


- Ha. I guess we all take liberties when putting words into a character’s mouths, or letting them out, whichever.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
At least make them E-Cigs! It would work as well because I think they’re banned in some countries – I remember you couldn’t buy them in Australia originally, that’s probably changed now.


- Ha, that would be bringing it right up to date alright. Although if they are banned would there be a market for them? People will just go back to normal cigs.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
I’ve never been to Ireland – we call them bottle shops or bottle-O’s over here in Oz.


- So they do. I lived in Oz before, just like every other Irish person of a certain demographic. I’ll be going back there again next year actually.


Quoted from CoopBazinga
Exactly this – we all have our own technique and it won’t work for some readers but that doesn’t make them wrong. Please calm down on your ellipses though.


- NEVER! All ye doubters will come around eventually…Watch…this…space…

Don’t apologize for rambling, I like these back and forth discussion, it’s where you learn the most (yeah when we’re talking about your script, says you) So please, let me return the favour if you have anything.

Col.


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Reef Dreamer
Posted: October 10th, 2014, 1:09pm Report to Moderator
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Good to see this in shore script quarter finals - best of luck. Don't think I know your other entry. Must look it up.


My scripts  HERE

The Elevator Most Belonging To Alice - Semi Final Bluecat, Runner Up Nashville
Inner Journey - Page Awards Finalist - Bluecat semi final
Grieving Spell - winner - London Film Awards.  Third - Honolulu
Ultimate Weapon - Fresh Voices - second place
IMDb link... http://www.imdb.com/name/nm7062725/?ref_=tt_ov_wr
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Colkurtz8
Posted: October 11th, 2014, 6:37am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Reef Dreamer
Good to see this in shore script quarter finals - best of luck. Don't think I know your other entry. Must look it up.


Thanks man, yeah the other has been on here for a few years now. Although its nice to be shortlisted, the list is indeed a mile long. I can't see it getting much farther, as its too...wait for it...yes, generic .


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DS
Posted: October 11th, 2014, 11:27am Report to Moderator
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Congratulations Col!

Recognised Reef in the QFs list with a short as well and Dustin with a feature.

Good luck all of you in the next round.
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Reef Dreamer
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Quoted from Colkurtz8


Thanks man, yeah the other has been on here for a few years now. Although its nice to be shortlisted, the list is indeed a mile long. I can't see it getting much farther, as its too...wait for it...yes, generic .


I was about to apologise thinking I had offended you with that phrase but on re reading I think it's others....I hope so.

I thought this was well handled and in keeping with the genre. The question is whether it could be more, not whether it failed. It doesn't. This is something I fail do to, ie write normally/conventially. Didn't fail for the sorpranos!

You'll never see me in TV!


Recognised Reef in the QFs list with a short as well and Dustin with a feature.

Good luck all of you in the next round.


Thanks - but just to brag for Col and Me, we both have two scripts in that  

Well done  Dustin, best of luck.



My scripts  HERE

The Elevator Most Belonging To Alice - Semi Final Bluecat, Runner Up Nashville
Inner Journey - Page Awards Finalist - Bluecat semi final
Grieving Spell - winner - London Film Awards.  Third - Honolulu
Ultimate Weapon - Fresh Voices - second place
IMDb link... http://www.imdb.com/name/nm7062725/?ref_=tt_ov_wr
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Colkurtz8
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Quoted from Reef Dreamer
I was about to apologise thinking I had offended you with that phrase but on re reading I think it's others....I hope so.


- Not at all, it was more a self deprecating dig at myself. I'm not blind to my own work's deficiencies, you have to be in order to improve.

And sorry, I never realised you had a couple shortlisted too, nice one on that. Fingers crossed.

Thanks DS for the kind words also.



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FrankM
Posted: April 19th, 2018, 9:38am Report to Moderator
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Hey there,

I know this has been laying here for a while, but I thought it was interesting and I hope it gets some renewed attention.

Overall, I liked the story and the atmosphere. Despite the UK/Irish spelling and word choices, it has a recognizable American gangster vibe. I think the easiest course is to switch to American spelling and word choices (plastic sheeting, trunk, liquor store, G.P.S., etc.), or dive deep into your own local knowledge and make it distinctly Irish.

I thought the story was original enough. Maybe people who saw every 1930s gangster movie and know every character in Godfather III will see it as tired, but my bet is that most people won't. If this worries you, go ahead and make the setting distinctly Irish.

I'm not a fan of capping every NOUN that the writer thinks is important, because that's already used for SOUND EFFECTS and CHARACTER INTROS. Personally I'd go with sparing use of italics in the action blocks, but ultimately it's a style choice.

Please establish the time fairly early in the script. It could be as simple as specifying the make and model of Telly's car, or someone's smartphone could ding out a notification, or something else less attention-grabbing than a SUPER yet more precise than leaving it up to the reader's imagination. Yes, readers should default to "present day," but for some reason that just doesn't come naturally in a gangster story.

These guys have awesome street names, but no one ever says Crispy, Rocco or Tweezers in dialogue! Obviously you don't want all these familiar folks artificially referring to each other by name while sitting around the table, but each one's name ought to come up at least once.

As a side note, Crispy ought to have a visible burn scar. And no other explanation of his name

A good place for a first or second name mention would be during Telly's monologue. Rather than vaguely calling Pete the founder, he can point out some great thing Pete did for each of the henchmen... and note that such actions would never happen under this new, timid shadow of a Pete.

Great speakers motivating an audience tend to alternate between Awful Now and Bright Future, back and forth as many times as necessary to get all their points across. Telly could use a variation that contrasts Glorious Past with Awful Now with Bright Future, and it would make the monologue more dynamic while also dripping in some exposition.

Mediocre speakers just dwell on Awful Now (possibly relative to a Glorious Past) then wrap up with a call to Do Something About It, which just so happens to be Something very advantageous to the speaker. Telly can also be a mediocre speaker, but make it a conscious choice.

The crime scene clean up doesn't really need to be a montage, but if you want to get the workman feel from it I would look at LTC Markinson's suicide note scene in A Few Good Men. You only see snippets of the process, but it is conveyed to the audience that this process was long and meticulous.

It was mentioned a couple times above that Crispy should hesitate before taking out Telly. This not only makes the character a little more human, it gives Telly a chance to react to his impending doom. Does he try to reassert control, assume he was caught and beg forgiveness, respect Crispy's ballsiness, etc.?

Overall I think it's a great piece of work. Time jumps make for a tough read, but so long as each time is in a visually distinct setting then I think it will work well on screen.


Feature-length scripts:
Who Wants to Be a Princess? (Family)
Glass House (Horror anthology)

TV pilots:
"Kord" (Fantasy)
"Mal Suerte" (Superhero)

Additional scripts are listed here.
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Colkurtz8
Posted: April 20th, 2018, 8:31am Report to Moderator
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Frank

Thanks for your insightful thoughts, very helpful.


Quoted from FrankM
I read through the version behind the link, sorry if this isn't the latest version and you already addressed some of the things I say. After reading the script I skimmed through the discussion thread just to make sure I'm not repeating something you've heard a million times.


- That link should’ve been the latest draft but a few of the terms you mentioned below have been altered, and for some time. I‘ve rechecked all the links since and they’re working now. Thanks again for the giving me the heads up.

I always comment on scripts blind. I don’t even read the logline if I can help it. That’s how you get the purest reactions. If you repeat stuff others have said, so what, probably means it’s an issue which the writer should take note of.


Quoted from FrankM
Overall, I liked the story and the atmosphere. Despite the UK/Irish spelling and word choices, it has a recognizable American gangster vibe. I think the easiest course is to switch to American spelling and word choices (plastic sheeting, trunk, liquor store, G.P.S., etc.), or dive deep into your own local knowledge and make it distinctly Irish.


- It does have that mix which I hope gives it somewhat a voice of its own. I have scripts that are distinctly Irish but I want variety too. Limits their appeal a bit if everything you write is colloquial, particularly if you’re outside of America and to a lesser extent, Britain. Most of the non-American terms are strictly on the page and won’t be seen on screen anyway but yeah, I take your point.


Quoted from FrankM
I thought the story was original enough. Maybe people who saw every 1930s gangster movie know every character in Godfather III will see it as tired, but my bet is that most people won't. If this worries you, go ahead and make the setting distinctly Irish.


- I would be the first to admit that it doesn’t score highly in the originality department. We’ve seen these types of stories before in other films. The gangster genre is pretty exhausted at this stage, hard to find a new angle. I just hoped it had enough twists and turns to make it entertaining at least.


Quoted from FrankM
I'm not a fan of capping every NOUN that the writer thinks is important, because that's already used for SOUND EFFECTS and CHARACTER INTROS. Personally I'd go with sparing use of italics in the action blocks, but ultimately it's a style choice.


- Yeah, it’s a taste thing. I appreciate it in other scripts so I’ve applied it to my own. I don’t always capitalise sounds either, depends if they’re important. I try to emphasise the key visual components of a given scene as it helps establish the image at a glance. It will annoy some though.


Quoted from FrankM
Please establish the time fairly early in the script. It could be as simple as specifying the make and model of Telly's car, or someone's smartphone could ding out a notification, or something else less attention-grabbing than a SUPER yet more precise than leaving it up to the reader's imagination. Yes, readers should default to "present day," but for some reason that just doesn't come naturally in a gangster story.


- I agree about supers and try to use them sparingly. You’ll see that I liked how you told us the specific year in an organic manner in your script but here is a little more complex with the jumping timelines so I opted for clarity. They could just as easily be removed and left up to the reader to surmise but I guarantee you will have people complaining then that they are confused. I could include a shot of a date on the car display or something but that might seem too clunky also.


Quoted from FrankM
These guys have awesome street names, but no one ever says Crispy, Rocco or Tweezers in dialogue! Obviously you don't want all these familiar folks artificially referring to each other by name while sitting around the table, but each one's name ought to come up at least once.


- Ha, that’s true, I don’t think I ever noticed that before. Seems a waste to not exploit their handles alright. I’ve wedged in a Tweezers and Crispy namedrop but can't find an opportunity for Rocco.


Quoted from FrankM
As a side note, Crispy ought to have a visible burn scar. And no other explanation of his name  


- Good suggestion. I’d just binged watched The Sopranos when I wrote this. The name Crispy came from Christopher and Telly was derived from Tony. The boss-cheating-on-his-protege’s-woman dynamic mirrors that relationship too. Like I say, my head was brimming with all things Sopranos


Quoted from FrankM
A good place for a first or second name mention would be during Telly's monologue. Rather than vaguely calling Pete the founder, he can point out some great thing Pete did for each of the henchmen... and note that such actions would never happen under this new, timid shadow of a Pete.


- Good idea, will look at that.


Quoted from FrankM
Great speakers motivating an audience tend to alternate between Awful Now and Bright Future, back and forth as many times as necessary to get all their points across. Telly could use a variation that contrasts Glorious Past with Awful Now with Bright Future, and it would make the monologue more dynamic while also dripping in some exposition.

Mediocre speakers just dwell on Awful Now (possibly relative to a Glorious Past) then wrap up with a call to Do Something About It, which just so happens to be Something very advantageous to the speaker. Telly can also be a mediocre speaker, but make it a conscious choice.


- Yeah, I didn’t want to make his “pep” talk too polished. He’s a gangster after all speaking in the way he knows how in order to gain allegiance. Thanks for the breakdown though.


Quoted from FrankM
The crime scene clean up doesn't really need to be a montage, but if you want to get the workman feel from it I would look at LTC Markinson's suicide note scene in A Few Good Men. You only see snippets of the process, but it is conveyed to the audience that this process was long and meticulous.


- Will do but yeah it was done for economy and also, as you said, to convey the workman-like procedural nature of the task.


Quoted from FrankM
It was mentioned a couple times in the discussion thread that Crispy should hesitate before taking out Telly. This not only makes the character a little more human, it gives Telly a chance to react to his impending doom. Does he try to reassert control, assume he was caught and beg forgiveness, respect Crispy's ballsiness, etc.?


- I’ve thought about that but I like the abruptness of it. We can assume Crispy has had this rolling around in his head for the previous couple of weeks, the thought processes and reasoning have been done and redone. At this moment now, with the wheels already set in motion, he can’t afford to hesitate.

Cool, glad you got something out of it. You’ve given me a couple of things to consider for the rewrite. Cheers.

Col.


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SAC
Posted: June 21st, 2018, 9:11pm Report to Moderator
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Col,

Hey man. Coulda sworn I read this before, but don't know why I did not comment here. Anyway...

Nice job. Love the vibe you're feeding us. Very sparse writing, description-wise, but it works -- it's the way it's supposed to be. Like how you focus more on character reactions instead of just dialogue to push the moment. The reaction punctuates the dialogue more than just the dialogue alone. Very nice.

I particularly enjoyed the ending. The double cross was in, then the double-double cross. But you didn't just settle for that. You kept going back in time (2 weeks earlier) and so on. It's like, as twisty as the story was, you went there with the writing too. Good choice. And, not sure there was any other way to do it, for that matter.

Not sure if I was happy with the ending. Aside from Crispy wrapping Telly's body the same way as Pete's, I feel Crispy's "arrival" could have been puncuated more. Not by a whole lot more, just something more. Still, if you don't change it, it still works fine as is. Just sayin.

Overall, very good stuff, man!

Steve


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Colkurtz8
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Steve

Thanks for taking the time to read this and the kind words.

I'm always very mindful of character reactions and body language, maybe to a fault at times. Perhaps I occasionally overdo it as we always hear how actors don't like too much direction but yeah, I think they can convey a lot if used appropriately. Just like the job of acting itself.

I hoped the convoluted story would be entertaining and unexpected and make up for the script's admitted lack of originality. We've all seen this type of scenario before so I wanted to tell it with as much finesse and guile as possible. Its how you tell 'em, isn't it?

In terms of making the most out of Crispy's "arrival" I tried to give it some dramatic heft by having the looping structure and cutting away right before its revealed. Then going back in time and seeing how we got to that scene. I enjoyed the abruptness of Crispy pulling the trigger too when we finally come full circle. Despite his reticence its cold, clinical and workmanlike.

Thanks again for checking this out.

Col.


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Marcela
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Hi Col,
first of all thank you very much for reading and commenting on my script The Biggest Scam, it was ten months ago. I only read your comments last week, I just got overwhelmed with stuff other than scripts.
I love the title Pecking Order!
Films about gangs are not my favourite, but there are some exceptions. And I pretty much enjoyed your script.
I found some unfilmables - such as 'a man (early 70s), looks his age' or 'A  BODY  lies  inside,  wrapped  in black  POLYTHENE,  tied  up  with  ROPES. ' If the polythene was transparent, then you could write that.
Also there was too many characters for so little pages, they all turned up around page 8, they were all similar kind of people so I sometimes I didn't know who was who. But after reading the script second time I could follow and stopped confusing all the gangsters. Tho thinking about production, many producers don't want a short film with more than 4 characters.
Also, what about putting some different story running through the script... gangsters turning one against another and killing each other sounds more like a back story to me,
Keep up good work,
Marcela


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Colkurtz8
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Marcela

Thank you for your comments. Sorry, I'm only responding to them now as I was away from the site too. Hoping to get back into it again.


Quoted from Marcela
I love the title Pecking Order!


- I'm glad the title worked for you as I'm not good with titles and often struggle with them. I realise that the majority of my short script titles are just twists on common phrases or expressions. Not too imaginative. This title is pretty unsubtle and direct, I feel it could be better.


Quoted from Marcela
I found some unfilmables - such as 'a man (early 70s), looks his age'


- You reckon this is an unfilmmable? The guy looks like he's in his early 70s, thus, he looks his age. I don't see a problem with that. Sometimes people look older or younger than their actual age but most of the time I think we can gauge a person's age pretty accurately by just looking at them.



Quoted from Marcela
or 'A  BODY  lies  inside,  wrapped  in black  POLYTHENE,  tied  up  with  ROPES. ' If the polythene was transparent, then you could write that.


- Ha, that's true I never thought of that but given the opening scene, I feel that anybody with a passing interest in films will recognize this scenario and discern what it is by its shape. Maybe I could rewrite it as:

"Inside, wrapped in black POLYTHENE and tied up with ROPES, a BODY SHAPED object"



Quoted from Marcela
Also there was too many characters for so little pages, they all turned up around page 8, they were all similar kind of people so I sometimes I didn't know who was who. But after reading the script second time I could follow and stopped confusing all the gangsters. Tho thinking about production, many producers don't want a short film with more than 4 characters.


- Yeah, that's true, I wanted to create a mini coterie of gangster in order to establish that world or at least give a glimpse into it. It also helped facilitate the banter between them and fuel some of Crispy's motivation to betray them. I attempted to differentiate them whereby Fergus is the more fawning, ass kissing, jokey of the 3, Rocco is a more authoritative, quieter type while Tweezers is somewhere in between.

Also, in relation to the ""two many characters" criticism, while I acknowledge the validity of it, I feel its more of an issue on the page than on screen so I give it some leeway when I see a character heavy script and consider how they will translate on screen.


Quoted from Marcela
Also, what about putting some different story running through the script... gangsters turning one against another and killing each other sounds more like a back story to me


- Perhaps but these rivaling gangsters turning on each other has escalated to the point of one of the families being wiped out. I thought that was worthy of main plot material. What you're asking for is to change the story on a fundamental level which means an entirely different script...and we all know that the gangster genre can be done many different ways so there are surely other stories to be mined from the subject matter.

Thanks again for your thoughts, much appreciated. Let me know if I can return the favour.

Col.


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MatthewLincoln
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Col.

It's Matthew. I wanted to give you a review for Pecking Order. Sorry it's taken so long, but I've really busy with work, recently. My overall thoughts are that Pecking Order is a great script. I really liked your take on the crime/ mob genre, and I'll go as far as to say that this needs to get picked up by someone. It'd be a great movie. I'll start with the technical aspects of the script, then the narrative aspects.

When it comes to the technical elements of Pecking Order, everything is great for the most part. It's formatted properly for the most part(though I do have a question that I'll get to in a moment). I liked the way you described the characters. They were easy to visualize. Same with the action. The biggest plus, for me, is the dialogue.  Your dialogue is very natural, and doesn't come across as stiff. It was very believable, and conveyed elements the story effectively. Great job.

My one issue/question about the format deals with the scene where Crispy finds out that Marion was cheating on him with Telly. Shouldn't that scene be written with a FLASHBACK in the slug line, since it's a flashback? Other than that, the formatting is fine.

When it comes to the narrative, I like the non-linear aspect of the story, beginning with the In Medias Res opening that showed Crispy and Telly dumping the body. That kept me fascinated as to what that was about. another cool thing is that you gave all the major characters their moments, which is impressive given it's twenty page limit. Betrayal seems to be a very strong theme with the script. Telly betraying Pete, Marion betraying Crispy, and Crispy betraying both of them in the end. Once again, it you did a great job on the film. I hope it gets picked up.

Matthew Lincoln
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Colkurtz8
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Matthew

Thanks for checking this out. No worries about the delay.

Cheers for the kind words, I’m glad it worked for you. I know it’s not the most original of scripts, it’s pretty generic but I had fun writing it. It was inspired by bingeing the Sopranos over a 3 week period. The Telly and Crispy dynamic is a nod to Tony and Christopher’s relationship in that show.


Quoted from MatthewLincoln
My one issue/question about the format deals with the scene where Crispy finds out that Marion was cheating on him with Telly. Shouldn't that scene be written with a FLASHBACK in the slug line, since it's a flashback?


You must have missed it but on the bottom of page 16 there is a super (superimposed text) that says “2 Weeks earlier”


Quoted from MatthewLincoln
When it comes to the narrative, I like the non-linear aspect of the story, beginning with the In Medias Res opening that showed Crispy and Telly dumping the body. That kept me fascinated as to what that was about. another cool thing is that you gave all the major characters their moments, which is impressive given it's twenty page limit. Betrayal seems to be a very strong theme with the script. Telly betraying Pete, Marion betraying Crispy, and Crispy betraying both of them in the end. Once again, it you did a great job on the film. I hope it gets picked up.


Cool, thanks again. Yeah you got it, betrayal, hierarchy, ethics. It’s all in there

Col.


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DustinBowcot
Posted: June 9th, 2019, 3:57am Report to Moderator
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I read this again this morning. It's a good read. My only issue with it is that it runs very long. I'm pretty sure the first six pages could be cut without hurting the narrative much. There is some exposition that can be cut here and there.

This is low budget, but I feel that the 20 pages will put a lot of prospective wannabe producers off. It's a pretty simple story that should be able to be told in 10 pages just as well as 90.

That this has sat here for 5 years means it's likely not going anywhere soon in its current form.
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Col,

You're right. I did kind of overlook that, on page 16. Thanks for pointing that out.


@Dustin, I gotta disagree on the length. I think it's a well told story, and it has so many different plot threads, which is impressive for a 20 page short film.  For all of those plot threads to be resolved, you needed a longer script.

Matthew L.
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DustinBowcot
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Quoted from MatthewLincoln


Dustin, I gotta disagree on the length.


My point on the length was that it will put off a lot of potential wannabe producers. The script has sat here for 5 years already. I've sold a few short revenge thrillers in that time. None of them over 10 pages.

My suggestion is to write a 10-page version as they can be shot in a couple of days.

I disagree that the plot points of this story need more than 10 pages. This script isn't exactly bloated but it goes a longer way around than necessary for a short. I don't see any complications here. It's a standard revenge thriller. The same story has been told over and over in revenge thrillers three times as long. If it can be shortened into a 20-page story it can also be told in 10 or 5. Too many charcaters too. I'd consider cutting at least one of them.
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Colkurtz8
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Dustin & Matthew

Yeah, it's a valid point. This could be reworked and shortened to make a more producible version of the story. This was just the version I wanted to write.

It's one of the reason I haven't written a short in some time now. I struggle with length. I've only got a few pieces that are under 10 pages, the rest range between 15-30 pages. I write them mainly because I enjoy writing them rather than any aspiration to get them made. I focus mostly on features now and still have trouble keeping them below the 120 page mark.

Anyway, thanks again to you both for checking this out.

Col.


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Matthew Taylor
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Good morning Col


Quoted Text
TELLY
We�ve talked about this, fellas,
we�ve all seen the signs...we�re a
platoon without a lieutenant. Ever
since his heart began complaining
he�s been a different man. He�s
weakened, jaded, he wants to keep
things safe and avoid bloodshed no
matter what stunts the others try to
pull. You remember the length of our
straw for that ice haul a few months
ago? We picked up the fucking crumbs!
Pete wants longevity, to preserve
himself...rather than us...

Telly pauses a moment to let his words sink in.

TELLY (CONT�D)
We said we�d give him time and we
have. I talked to him and got
nowhere. The bastard is getting
stubborn in his old age and he�s not
about to step aside anytime soon.
Meanwhile, that prick Philly Wright
tests the water, turns the screw and
Pete reacts exactly as he hoped! That
was no accident and we know
it...except the person that matters.
We could all be hit next...because if
one of the families had someone like
Pete calling the shots I would be
thinking the same fuckin� thing


This monologue felt a bit too much like spoon-feeding - I pretty much already got all of this from the previous scene (well, not all of it - but the important aspect of a rift in the Telly/Pete relationship)  - which could be expanded slightly to show the decaying faith in Pete which would negate this monologue.

If I was watching this, not sure I would enjoy this scene.


Quoted Text
INT. RESTAURANT - NIGHT
Posh..


I don't comment much on the technical side of your scripts - You are already a dab hand and some of the stuff that I don't necessarily like/agree with are style choices and I guess that is just the way you like to write (Some people dislike my style choices, but I'm unlikely to change them).
Anyhoo... I quoted the above because it seems like a good idea to include extra detail in the slug so you don't have to do it in the description block
INT. UPMARKET RESTAURANT - NIGHT - for example


Quoted Text
INT. MOTEL ROOM - LATER
Two BODIES writhe under the sheets, heavy breathing
passionate...Telly and Marion go at it hard


ouch, now there's a stab in the back


Quoted Text
This bitch is gaggin�, empty reaches


Did you mean retches? - what's an empty reach?

Oooh good work on not showing us the actual shooting - we already know it gets done so you show us the aftermath - well played.

Ok nice, I really like this - A good tale of betrayal and revenge - Bringing Philly back and showing that Crispy had been turned all along was nice and I didn't see it coming

Again though, I would play around with the order of things towards the end. First, we are shown the flashbacks, the plan and Crispy's intention to kill Telly, so when he actually does bump him off, we know it's coming.
How about we see the bumping off first, then us (the audience) have that thrilling "holy shit, why did he do that? does he know about him and marion?"
I like the V.O. of the conversation while watching the plan - keeps the flow good and the revelations coming thick and fast.
I would just play around with the order to maximize impact for the audience - the way it is, it is laid out straight away, and then we see it in action.


Quoted Text
Philly sits passenger, gauges Crispy�s reaction.
PHILLY
They�ve been at it for awhile, kid.
Mostly Thursdays...Where does she
tell you she�s going?
A couple of Philly�s cronies, familiar from the war
ehouse
meeting, occupy the BACKSEAT, trade sneers.
Crispy crumbles at the increasingly damning evidenc
e.
PHILLY (CONT�D)
That half assed outfit you�ve latched
yourself on to is nothing more than a
glorified crew.
Crispy has seen enough, hands back the phone.
PHILLY (CONT�D)
And we want you to help us eradicate
them.
CRISPY
What if I don�t?
Philly smirks, passes the phone to CRONY #1.
PHILLY
We�re resourceful...I just thought
I�d give you a chance to learn what
your �mentor� is really about before
I made any rash calls


Personally, I think it's a little much - trust the audience can piece it together without being spoon-fed. If we see it unfold, the showing of the pictures, the revenge killings - we can infer that the two of them made this plan without so much being given to us upfront - am I making sense, I can't tell?
I just think it softens the impact of the twist that is to come.

Overall I really enjoyed it - Gangster fare is always fun, and brutal.

I haven't read the other comments, but I can safely assume that two things have cropped up more than once -- Too many characters and too long.

There are a lot of characters and adds to the production costs. You kind of need the gang to show the "taking down" of the crew-- but Crispy doesn't really like them anyway so there's no impact there that he had them killed, personally, I would cut down their screentime.
Pam is not needed as far as I can tell.
I would remove (or limit) the ancillary characters that don't need to be there - Sexy Girl, the driver and the passenger of the van at the beginning (They don't need talking parts, they are extras, they need to pull over and step aside as their van is nicked)

Is it too long? In my opinion, yes. Rejigging, shortening the scenes that don't really need as much screentime as they get (the Van jacking) will reduce this without removing any of the elements that make it enjoyable.

Once again, good work and an enjoyable tale. This should really be picked up and filmed, maybe if it was shorter it would be more tempting.

Matt




Feature

42.2

Two steps to writing a good screenplay:
1) Write a bad one
2) Fix it

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Matthew Taylor  -  August 5th, 2019, 9:21am
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Colkurtz8
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Matt

Thanks for checking this out.


Quoted from Matthew Taylor
This monologue felt a bit too much like spoon-feeding - I pretty much already got all of this from the previous scene (well, not all of it - but the important aspect of a rift in the Telly/Pete relationship)  - which could be expanded slightly to show the decaying faith in Pete which would negate this monologue.

If I was watching this, not sure I would enjoy this scene.


Sure this could be omitted or, at the very least, cut down. The reason I allow Telly hold court like this is to emphasize his control over the group. This is his moment to stake his claim, to exert his dominance in a direct, unambiguous manner. Yes, we have already detected Telly’s dissatisfaction with Pete but now he needs to communicate that to the others so they can act on it as one. This is a galvanising speech, akin to something said to the troops before battle, to ensure solidarity. Also, I wanted to exhibit why Telly has the charisma and force of character to assume leadership. However, all that been said, I do agree that it could just as easily be dropped.


Quoted from Matthew Taylor
Anyhoo... I quoted the above because it seems like a good idea to include extra detail in the slug so you don't have to do it in the description block

INT. UPMARKET RESTAURANT - NIGHT - for example


That’s a good shout. There are definitely instances where it could be put in the slugline. You have probably noticed that I nearly always include an adjective or two at the beginning of a scene and then move on. I don’t dwell on overly descriptive prose unless it’s key to what’s happening.


Quoted from Matthew Taylor
Did you mean retches? - what's an empty reach?


Ha, good catch. I’ve heard people say “empty reach” to mean the same thing. Even when I Googled it, it doesn’t bring up a definition for that exactly but does direct me toward empty retching/dry heaving. Anyway, I will change it to that to prevent any confusion.


Quoted from Matthew Taylor
Oooh good work on not showing us the actual shooting - we already know it gets done so you show us the aftermath - well played.


Thanks, some people have questioned that cut but I thought it would be an abrupt and unexpected choice instead of just showing the inevitable.


Quoted from Matthew Taylor
Again though, I would play around with the order of things towards the end. First, we are shown the flashbacks, the plan and Crispy's intention to kill Telly, so when he actually does bump him off, we know it's coming.


Hmm, yeah, see I wanted to keep Crispy shooting Telly until the very end. I figured it would land with more impact then.


Quoted from Matthew Taylor
How about we see the bumping off first, then us (the audience) have that thrilling "holy shit, why did he do that? does he know about him and marion?"


Yeah, that could work too. I think if we show Telly and Marion together and then show Crispy killing Telly, we will immediately join the dots and he rest carries less import, seems somewhat minor in comparison. However, something like this could definitely be told in a few different ways. I guess it depends on what revelation you think is the most surprising and would be better served been pushed to the back.

Quoted from Matthew Taylor
I would just play around with the order to maximize impact for the audience - the way it is, it is laid out straight away, and then we see it in action.


Well, the flashback start on the bottom of page 16 and Telly’s infidelity is shown first, the primary motivator for Crispy’s double-cross but we don’t really realize the full repercussion of that until the very end when Crispy pulls the trigger on Telly. Yes, we see Telly’s outfit get ambushed first but that’s only part of the overall revenge.


Quoted from Matthew Taylor
Personally, I think it's a little much - trust the audience can piece it together without being spoon-fed. If we see it unfold, the showing of the pictures, the revenge killings - we can infer that the two of them made this plan without so much being given to us upfront - am I making sense, I can't tell?
I just think it softens the impact of the twist that is to come.


Sorry, just to clarify, are you talking about the order of the flashback scenes or the V.O. been spoken over it?


Quoted from Matthew Taylor
I haven't read the other comments, but I can safely assume that two things have cropped up more than once -- Too many characters and too long.
There are a lot of characters and adds to the production costs. You kind of need the gang to show the "taking down" of the crew-- but Crispy doesn't really like them anyway so there's no impact there that he had them killed, personally, I would cut down their screentime.

Pam is not needed as far as I can tell.


Yeah, some have said this and I agree in terms of production suitability but I do defend their importance to the script as a piece of storytelling. They add an extra impetus for Crispy to betray the outfit and also add some humour and colour to proceedings. They make Telly’s crew feel genuine, not just a group of Faceless Henchman #1/#2/#3 in the background. Pam is there to fill out the double date scenario at the restaurant. She’s a subtle indicator of how much Telly thinks of Crispy, that considers him his peer. Two couples going for dinner like that suggest a certain level of equal standing and mutual regard. Of course, one could argue that Marion might also be a big reason for Telly’s selection of dinner company.


Quoted from Matthew Taylor
I would remove (or limit) the ancillary characters that don't need to be there - Sexy Girl, the driver and the passenger of the van at the beginning (They don't need talking parts, they are extras, they need to pull over and step aside as their van is nicked)


It would’ve felt a little odd on the page if it were wordless but it could definitely be done that way.

I guess my reluctance in shortening it would be that if someone really had an interest in it, I think they would anyway in its current form, regardless of the cuts you suggested. Seeing where it could be trimmed would come later in the process and I would be totally open to that discussion. However, would those parts you deemed extraneous make or break someone choosing to produce it in the first place or look to at least develop it? I don’t think so...but I could be wrong of course and simply too attached to it as it is now.

Thanks as always for taking the time, man. I really appreciate it.

Col.



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Colkurtz8  -  August 10th, 2019, 12:32pm
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LC
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Technically none of my beeswax (I haven't read the entirety and don't want to appear rude, Col) but I read the context of the 'empty reaches' and the term you're looking for is 'dry retch' or retching, or dry heave. Gagging is the same thing e.g. the gag reflex, so you're kinda doubling up there.

It's dialogue so you could take advantage of the character saying 'dry reaching' (cause plenty of people mispronounce it that way) and have one of the other characters be a smart arse and correct his usage - which in the process wouldn't go down well.   Inadvertent pun of my own there. Just a thought...

Easy on the exclamation points too, imho. Save them for real life and death, high crisis moments in the plot.
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23781044

We apparently all use way too many of them these days - a habit and side effect of so much text-speak.


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Colkurtz8
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Libby

Thanks for your input.


Quoted from LC
Technically none of my beeswax (I haven't read the entirety and don't want to appear rude, Col) but I read the context of the 'empty reaches' and the term you're looking for is 'dry retch' or retching, or dry heave. Gagging is the same thing e.g. the gag reflex, so you're kinda doubling up there.


Yeah, upon closer research, you are right. It's just one of those terms that has been distorted over the years, or maybe it's just me who got into the habit of saying "empty retches/reaches". "Dry heaving" is appropriate too but I associate "heaving" with someone who is short of breath rather than trying to keep vomit down.


Quoted from LC
It's dialogue so you could take advantage of the character saying 'dry reaching' (cause plenty of people mispronounce it that way) and have one of the other characters be a smart arse and correct his usage - which in the process wouldn't go down well.   Inadvertent pun of my own there. Just a thought...


That's a good suggestion. It could also be just a quirk of the character that goes unaddressed too. It reminds me of Fargo (the film) when Peter Stormare's Gaear Grimsrud says the line "Pancakes house". Apparently, he said "Pancake House" on the first take but the Coens told him to say it as written even though it was incorrect. I don't think English (or any language for that matter) was that character's mother tongue so it made more sense.


Quoted from LC
Easy on the exclamation points too, imho. Save them for real life and death, high crisis moments in the plot.
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23781044

We apparently all use way too many of them these days - a habit and side effect of so much text-speak.


Haha, that's hilarious. It depends on the character and the context I would say. In this situation there is a joke being told and that character is definitely someone who thinks he's funnier and smarter than he actually is.

Good article though, I can certainly be guilty of them during texting, though I try to limit them to one at a time. It would have to be something exceptional to warrant consecutive exclamations!!!

Col.


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Matthew Taylor
Posted: August 16th, 2019, 4:05am Report to Moderator
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Quoted Text
Sorry, just to clarify, are you talking about the order of the flashback scenes or the V.O. been spoken over it?


I haven't slept much recently so bear with me lol

I was initially referring to the conversation between Philly and Crispy in his car after showing him the photos. Although reading it again it's not as long a conversation as I remember. My original thought was that Philly (an already known adversary to Tilly) showing Crispy the photos without the explaining of the plan would have been enough to push the story along.
But it's fine the way it is, I'm mostly talking nonsense lol

All the best

Matt



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Colkurtz8
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Quoted from Matthew Taylor


I haven't slept much recently so bear with me lol

I was initially referring to the conversation between Philly and Crispy in his car after showing him the photos. Although reading it again it's not as long a conversation as I remember. My original thought was that Philly (an already known adversary to Tilly) showing Crispy the photos without the explaining of the plan would have been enough to push the story along.
But it's fine the way it is, I'm mostly talking nonsense lol


Nah, it's a fair comment. It could be done without dialogue and just rely on the visuals and established character dynamics.


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