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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Unproduced Screenplay Discussion    Drama Scripts  ›  The Apple and The Tree Moderators: bert
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  Author    The Apple and The Tree  (currently 2339 views)
Don
Posted: July 24th, 2014, 4:23pm Report to Moderator
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So, what are you writing?

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The Apple and The Tree by Christopher Lawrence (YaBoyTopher) - Drama - A father and son who are struggling financially descend into a life of crime, all while a young drug lord tries to clean up his life without disappointing his father. 111 pages - pdf, format


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YaBoyTopher
Posted: July 24th, 2014, 4:32pm Report to Moderator
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Thanks for posting.

This is a story I worked hard on. The inspiration for this story came from a conversation I had with my father when our security business was struggling and w were having financial problems, how easy it would be for us to break into houses, This obviously was a joking conversation but it inspired me to write this story and it ended up evolving into so much more then I thought it would.

This is still an early draft but I look forward to getting some reviews before I start my next re-write. I will be happy to read anything you wish in return just let me know.


My posted Scripts:
"The First Date" - Short Comedy
http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?m-1405598063/s-0/#num1
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Posted: July 24th, 2014, 6:42pm Report to Moderator
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Never, ever open your script with people SITTING and TALKING.  It's so dull, unexciting and lifeless.

Why not have Charlie try to convince Mr.  Kent to sign up for the security system?  In the above scene of sitting and talking, it was made clear that business was going bad.  Let's raise the stakes here now.  Charlie NEEDS to make a sale.  Charlie really, really needs to make that fucking sale to help keep the business a float.  Mr.  Kent is not interested, but Charlie needs to make him interested.  It'll become a much better scene then Mr.  Kent just slamming the door on Charlie's face and Charlie hopping into the car and nonchalantly telling his girlfriend 'ah, let's get some lunch.'

The following gangland execution scene in the desert reads very OTN, man.  It's the dialogue that kills the scene.  These hoods speak very intelligently, almost. It all feels stiff.  Like, for example,  "And I know that you will hit the streets and will pay me back every dollar you and your little friend over there stole," or "You look irritated" or "I am sorry Pa but I am tired of dealing with these disloyal scumbags."  I'm sorry, but that's just straight up bad dialogue, my friend.  I have been noticing that every character pretty much has the same type of manner of speaking (Natural, good dialogue is a hard thing to master.  I'll leave it at that and won't harp on it anymore).  

Charlie and Rick in the next scene was too long "dressing up" - using chit chat about girls and stupid stories before we get to the real elephant in the room:  their business going down the tubes.  But even when they touch on the subject, it's over with the snap of a finger.  Play around with stuff like this, just like I suggested with the Charlie/Kent scene.  As it stands, this scene doesn't tell us anything except that Charlie and his pal like to sit around, play video games, bitch and moan, and do nothing about their problems - like they're just waiting for everything to go right on their own.

Right after that scene, we jump back to the gangster plot, which sad to say...comes across super cliche, man.   "Listen, you do not just quit or retire from this job. The only way out is in a casket, you know that."  How many times have I heard this in crappy DTV flicks?  How many times have I read this in really bad amateur scripts?  Too many to count.  This whole gangster part feels like you took what you saw from the movies and just copy and pasted.

Charlie and Vanessa's bedroom scene was a head shaker.  Vanessa presents Charlie with all of these major problems - eviction type notice type of stuff - He then says he'll fix it, but in a previous scene we saw him playing video games and bullshitting about funny stories?  Vanessa then comes right out and tells him that she's pregnant.  This whole sequence could have been filled with conflict but it has none.  Instead, it reads very OTN.  There's no subtlety.  I mean, the stakes are there - baby on the way, about to lose the house - but it doesn't feel like anyone gives a shit.  Charlie and Vanessa make up fairly quickly and then Charlie goes back to staring at the ceiling fan.  The next scene has Charlie trying to convince his father to go along with his scheme, and I must say that I appreciate the idea of it because this is irony at it's best.  A home security company who has the job of protecting families in their homes, will start breaking into these very same homes to steal money so they can try to keep their business alive.

And this is followed by another scene of characters just sitting around and talking and being inactive.  I'm going to stop at page 26 because this is filled with problems and I'd rather check this out later down the line when you get a better grasp on writing.  I hate to sound harsh, but I have to ask if this is your very first attempt at writing scripts?  Dialogue is too direct, stiff, OTN, cliche and lacks any subtlety.  Everyone speaks exactly what is on their mind.  There's a big lack of conflict and urgency.  The stakes are there but you aren't beefing it up.  Everyone just talks the talk, but nobody seems to be walking the walk.  In other words, no one really seems to give a shit, and if the characters don't give a shit - I don't give a shit.

This is the type of story that would really benefit from having a strong sense of goals, stakes and urgency.  That's the problem with a lot of amateur scripts, I think.  Everything seems to take forever to get going.  Things move too slow.  This script is like the X number in a row that I have attempted to read and bailed on because nothing happened.  Chris, you need to establish shit right away and get the party started.  Establish your protagonist, what his goal is, what will happen to his ass if he doesn't achieve this goal, and then launch him into his journey.   Inject every scene with conflict and try to entertain us.  Hook us with something that will make us want to flip page after page.  Your stereotypical gangster plot doesn't hook at all.  

I'm sorry to leave such negative feedback, but usually, the best feedback you'll ever get, is negative feedback, because it alerts you to problems you didn't see, or aren't even aware of.  The last script I read reinforced a couple of things for me, this one has made them shatterproof.  So even though I did not like this at all, I really benefited from the read.  Best of luck, man.  And don't feel totally down, I'm sure you'll get a couple of reads and people will like what you did here.

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Guest  -  July 24th, 2014, 7:16pm
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YaBoyTopher
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Thank you for the read and the feedback and no worries I am not afraid of criticism. I will address your thoughts below.


Quoted Text
Never, ever open your script with people SITTING and TALKING.  It's so dull, unexciting and lifeless.


I cant say I agree with this point in general there have been many films that open with characters sitting and talking that works very effectively. Clearly my opening scene did not work for you and that is noted for sure but to say those types of openers dont work in general I feel is false.


Quoted Text
Why not have Charlie try to convince Mr.  Kent to sign up for the security system?  


Well as I have a sales background I can speak from experience that there isnt much you can do when a door is slammed in your face. Perhaps I should consider re-writing this scene to not have the guy slam the door in his face and provide him a chance to give more of an effort to make the sale. I will consider this for the re-write for sure.

Him giving up and saying lets get lunch was not meant to come across as him being lazy or nonchalant but to show he is getting frustrated and tiring of his current job. That obviously did not come across to you so I will take a closer look at that.


Quoted Text
The following gangland execution scene in the desert reads very OTN, man.  It's the dialogue that kills the scene.  These hoods speak very intelligently, almost. It all feels stiff.  Like, for example,  "And I know that you will hit the streets and will pay me back every dollar you and your little friend over there stole," or "You look irritated" or "I am sorry Pa but I am tired of dealing with these disloyal scumbags."  I'm sorry, but that's just straight up bad dialogue, my friend.  I have been noticing that every character pretty much has the same type of manner of speaking (Natural, good dialogue is a hard thing to master.  I'll leave it at that and won't harp on it anymore).  


The fact they speak intelligently does not bother me, I want Greivis to be an intelligent man and not just a "hood" as you put it. Your thoughts on the dialog being very OTN is something I will definitely work on this is something I really wanted to avoid but clearly I missed the mark on that. All of the characters having a similar manner of speaking is another good observation, this obviously can kill a story if characters all have seem similar, so I will look at that closely on a re-write, With that said I intentionally wanted Greivis and Charlie to seem very similar but I will work to give the other characters a more unique voice.


Quoted Text
Charlie and Rick in the next scene was too long "dressing up" - using chit chat about girls and stupid stories before we get to the real elephant in the room:  their business going down the tubes.  But even when they touch on the subject, it's over with the snap of a finger.  Play around with stuff like this, just like I suggested with the Charlie/Kent scene.  As it stands, this scene doesn't tell us anything except that Charlie and his pal like to sit around, play video games, b**** and moan, and do nothing about their problems - like they're just waiting for everything to go right on their own.


I am not sure I agree with this at all, I personally really dislike when a story constantly goes scene to scene just talking about main plot points, I think the "chit chat" helps build a connection to the characters, Now perhaps you disliked my "chit chat" in this scene and if so thats fine but in general I don't think this scene shows they dont care or are lazy bums, broke people play video games, eat tacos and hang out with friends. In real life when people face problems they do not constantly run around with their heads on fire, but if you are not feeling a sense of urgency from this storyline then I clearly missed the mark and need to re-work it.


Quoted Text
Right after that scene, we jump back to the gangster plot, which sad to say...comes across super cliche, man.   "Listen, you do not just quit or retire from this job. The only way out is in a casket, you know that."  How many times have I heard this in crappy DTV flicks?  How many times have I read this in really bad amateur scripts?  Too many to count.  This whole gangster part feels like you took what you saw from the movies and just copy and pasted.


I can see how the line you quoted come across very cliche, I will definitely look to change this in a re-write. Thanks for the note here.


Quoted Text

Charlie and Vanessa's bedroom scene was a head shaker.  Vanessa presents Charlie with all of these major problems - eviction type notice type of stuff - He then says he'll fix it, but in a previous scene we saw him playing video games and bullshitting about funny stories?  Vanessa then comes right out and tells him that she's pregnant.  This whole sequence could have been filled with conflict but it has none.  Instead, it reads very OTN.  There's no subtlety.  I mean, the stakes are there - baby on the way, about to lose the house - but it doesn't feel like anyone gives a s***.  


I appreciate your view point here especially about the dialog being on the nose. I do disagree with your grander point about the scene though, I think you went into this looking for a different tone film then I was trying to write. Vanessa is not angry with Charlie she is afraid, Charlie is not going to show how stressed he is because he doesnt want her to stress any further. I want the tension to be there in this scene but not so in your face, they are not upset with each other. With that said again if you didnt feel that or get that from my writing then it doesnt matter what I wanted out of the scene I failed lol, So again thanks for the view point and I will look at that in the re-write.


Quoted Text
And this is followed by another scene of characters just sitting around and talking and being inactive.  I'm going to stop at page 26 because this is filled with problems and I'd rather check this out later down the line when you get a better grasp on writing.  I hate to sound harsh, but I have to ask if this is your very first attempt at writing scripts?  Dialogue is too direct, stiff, OTN, cliche and lacks any subtlety.  Everyone speaks exactly what is on their mind.  There's a big lack of conflict and urgency.  The stakes are there but you aren't beefing it up.  Everyone just talks the talk, but nobody seems to be walking the walk.  In other words, no one really seems to give a s***, and if the characters don't give a s*** - I don't give a s***.


First this story is dialog heavy, I wrote this with a micro indie budget in mind so the action is very controlled, the settings very controlled, that is something I really was focused on so there is alot of dialog throughout, I am sorry you feel it is poor dialog that clearly is my fault regardless of budgetary constraints there is no excuse for por dialog.

To answer your other question, no this is not my first venture into writing, this is my 3rd completed feature and I have written a handful of short stories. Clearly my writing left alot to be desired if you ask this lol but no offense taken.

I am sorry you got the impression nobody in the story cares or is doing anything to solve their problems, this is something that by page 26 you should definitely feel things are in motion, This clearly did not work for you so I will have to consider that moving forward.


Quoted Text
This is the type of story that would really benefit from having a strong sense of goals, stakes and urgency.  That's the problem with a lot of amateur scripts, I think.  Everything seems to take forever to get going.  Things move too slow.  This script is like the X number in a row that I have attempted to read and bailed on because nothing happened.  Chris, you need to establish s*** right away and get the party started.  Establish your protagonist, what his goal is, what will happen to his A** if he doesn't achieve this goal, and then launch him into his journey.   Inject every scene with conflict and try to entertain us.  Hook us with something that will make us want to flip page after page.  Your stereotypical gangster plot doesn't hook at all.  


I disagree mostly with what you say here but I really respect your opinion. I feel like from the opening scene you understand where Charlie's story is headed, A person who spends their life working to protect people and has a baby on the way does not just come up with the idea of robbing homes and then start the next day, I was trying to show the process of him talking himself into it. His business is failing, he is getting cut off notices, his friends are struggling also, he has a baby on the way, he is losing the house. These were all things that are mounting on him the first 25 pages that convince him he has no choice but to turn to crime. You did not feel that build up so I must have missed the mark somewhere.

Your critique of Greivis story is definitely taken to heart because I can see your point how his story seems cliche through out the first act and I really need to work on this so thanks for the pointers on this.


Quoted Text
I'm sorry to leave such negative feedback, but usually, the best feedback you'll ever get, is negative feedback, because it alerts you to problems you didn't see, or aren't even aware of.  The last script I read reinforced a couple of things for me, this one has made them shatterproof.  So even though I did not like this at all, I really benefited from the read.  Best of luck, man.  And don't feel totally down, I'm sure you'll get a couple of reads and people will like what you did here.


No worries at all, we learn more from bad reviews then good ones, I really appreciate many of the points you made, I hope I didnt come off sounding defensive I was just trying to share my viewpoint on the story. I am glad you atleast learned something for your own writing moving forward.

Thanks so much for the read! I appreciate it very much ad I know you dont have anything posted on the site but if you ever do let me know and I will return the favor.






My posted Scripts:
"The First Date" - Short Comedy
http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?m-1405598063/s-0/#num1
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Posted: July 24th, 2014, 7:59pm Report to Moderator
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I strongly disagree with everything you just said, but we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I'm too tired to get into a debate over the importance of such things as goals, stakes, urgency, conflict, and all that jazz, because it's pretty clear that if we did get into that debate, we would be here for months on end, making diagrams with straws.  

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Guest  -  July 24th, 2014, 8:43pm
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Alex_212
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Hey Christopher and well done at getting this completed and posted.

I have to admit I started reading and stopped as it just didn't seem to hit the spot and I think a lot is to do with the structure of your writing as well as more action being required.

The first line for example:-
CHARLIE HARRISON (25) sits at a poker table in a modest living room, he sips on a glass filled with whiskey, he is a good looking guy athletic and confident.

You introduce a character, describe what he is doing, then describe the character. To me this is a bit arse about face and I would rather see something like.

A good looking athletic and confident CHARLIE HARRISON (25) sits at a poker table in a modest living room. He sips on a glass with whiskey.

This is shorter and reads much easier.

The second action line you introduce 3 characters and this does get confusing. Introduce one character then have him talk or do something then when the next character comes into the story introduce him and have him talk. This will flow better and be less confusing.

CHARLIE
I am telling you guys, breaking into
houses is one of the easiest crimes
there is to commit.
Put a comma after guys so that there is a slight pause, this reads much better.

Also have to admit that your first couple of pages does have a lot of Chit Chatter and even though it sets the scene for what may follow, it doesn't get into the story quick enough.

I did get bored very quickly as so would an agent or prospective producer. You need to throw the audience right into the action. Maybe a few QUICKFLASH throughout the first scene with someone breaking into a house as we need to see something happening. Talk is cheap and just slows things down and bulks things up.

When he says "they are very easy to pop off the tracks by hand or with a crowbar" why not include a Quickflash of this happening as well as the other bits described. This will give the start more depth.

Sorry I couldn't read any further as I really don't have the time.

Good luck and hope it goes well.

Alex






PLEASE TAKE A PEEK AT SOME OF MY WORK:-

CLICK HERE: Please comment or PM me.
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YaBoyTopher
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Quoted Text
I'm too tired to get into a debate over the importance of such things as goals, stakes, urgency, conflict, and all that jazz, because it's pretty clear that if we did get into that debate, we would be here for months on end, making diagrams with straws.  

No worries, I dint want to debate anything, sorry if I came across defensive. I value your viewpoint and agree goals, stakes, urgency and conflict are important. The way I tried to show those things just didnt work for you as a reader and so I as a writer did something wrong....Thanks again for the read.

Quoted from Alex_212
Hey Christopher and well done at getting this completed and posted.

I have to admit I started reading and stopped as it just didn't seem to hit the spot and I think a lot is to do with the structure of your writing as well as more action being required.

The first line for example:-
CHARLIE HARRISON (25) sits at a poker table in a modest living room, he sips on a glass filled with whiskey, he is a good looking guy athletic and confident.

You introduce a character, describe what he is doing, then describe the character. To me this is a bit arse about face and I would rather see something like.

A good looking athletic and confident CHARLIE HARRISON (25) sits at a poker table in a modest living room. He sips on a glass with whiskey.

This is shorter and reads much easier.

The second action line you introduce 3 characters and this does get confusing. Introduce one character then have him talk or do something then when the next character comes into the story introduce him and have him talk. This will flow better and be less confusing.

CHARLIE
I am telling you guys, breaking into
houses is one of the easiest crimes
there is to commit.
Put a comma after guys so that there is a slight pause, this reads much better.

Also have to admit that your first couple of pages does have a lot of Chit Chatter and even though it sets the scene for what may follow, it doesn't get into the story quick enough.

I did get bored very quickly as so would an agent or prospective producer. You need to throw the audience right into the action. Maybe a few QUICKFLASH throughout the first scene with someone breaking into a house as we need to see something happening. Talk is cheap and just slows things down and bulks things up.

When he says "they are very easy to pop off the tracks by hand or with a crowbar" why not include a Quickflash of this happening as well as the other bits described. This will give the start more depth.

Sorry I couldn't read any further as I really don't have the time.

Good luck and hope it goes well.

Alex


Thanks for giving my screenplay a shot, sorry it didnt work for you. Your pointer on formatting the introductions is a good one, I will implement that on the re-write. I agree introducing 3 characters in one block of action is clunky, I couldnt think of a better way to do it but I will keep looking into fixing that.

Good suggestiong with the flash forward clips of breaking into the houses, maybe this is a way to address the slow start both you and deadite didnt like, I will play around with this and see if it can improve my intro.

Even though it looks like you didnt get past the first page I do appreciate the effort and the good suggestions.


My posted Scripts:
"The First Date" - Short Comedy
http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?m-1405598063/s-0/#num1
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Quoted from YaBoyTopher

Thanks for giving my screenplay a shot, sorry it didnt work for you. Your pointer on formatting the introductions is a good one, I will implement that on the re-write. I agree introducing 3 characters in one block of action is clunky, I couldnt think of a better way to do it but I will keep looking into fixing that.

Good suggestiong with the flash forward clips of breaking into the houses, maybe this is a way to address the slow start both you and deadite didnt like, I will play around with this and see if it can improve my intro.

Even though it looks like you didnt get past the first page I do appreciate the effort and the good suggestions.


No problem, You really need to grab peoples attention and hang onto it so that they have to read further. I assume this is your first feature as these can be so much different to writing a short.

Alex


PLEASE TAKE A PEEK AT SOME OF MY WORK:-

CLICK HERE: Please comment or PM me.
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Quoted from Alex_212


No problem, You really need to grab peoples attention and hang onto it so that they have to read further. I assume this is your first feature as these can be so much different to writing a short.

Alex



Not my first, actually my third but the reason I posted this one is it needs the most help and I had kind of hit a wall on it and wanted some fresh eyes to give me some thoughts/suggestions.

I will definitely work to adjust this to be more attention grabbing in the first act, it doesnt matter if the middle and end are good if the beginning puts the reader/viewer to sleep.


My posted Scripts:
"The First Date" - Short Comedy
http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?m-1405598063/s-0/#num1
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Dreamscale
Posted: July 25th, 2014, 11:08am Report to Moderator
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Hey Chris, I saw the negative reviews coming in, as well as your responses and thought I'd give this a quick look and see if I can help.

First of all, I do not agree with what Steve (deadite) told you about having to do this or that, and not being able to do this or that.  You can do whatever you please, and as you correctly said, many good to great movies start off slow, start with chit chat, etc.

I do not believe a script/movie has to follow any certain structure, and in fact, those that do, are usually extremely cliche, dull, and obvious, because we know exactly how everything will play out.

Those that play in the same boring sand box all play the same boring game by the same boring rules.  I always prefer to play outside that box and those that play with me understand how much fun it can be.

So, listen...in saying all that, the bottom line always comes down to the writing, what it is you're attempting to set up, and how you're going about it.

Page 1 is a big fail, overall, and it's based on poor writing, tons of mistakes, and a nonexistent setup.  Because of this, red flags are not only waving, they're screaming at your readers and once that happens, it's shocking how trained eyes see more and more, and all of a sudden, they're no longer really engaged at all, in anything other than seeing all the mistakes.  It's the way it is and the way it will always be, sorry to say.

Let's look at Page 1 and see what went wrong, writing-wise, and then, I'll throw out a suggestion or 2 on your setup.

Page 1 - Your opening Slug isn't good, as it tells us so little.  Slugs can be your best friends because they only and always take up 1 line and they can provide so much information. Whose living room is this?  What are you going to do if you find yourself in someone else's living room?  What would that Slug be titled?

Your opening sentence/passage is filled with mistakes and is actually a big old run-on sentence.  Red flags are waving madly already and in all honesty, I already know that the writing is not going to be good.  Let's check it out...

"CHARLIE HARRISON (25) sits at a poker table in a modest living room, he sips on a glass filled with whiskey, he is a good looking guy athletic and confident."

Your first comma here is incorrect, as it should be a period.  Same with the next comma.  As written, this should be 3 sentences, not 1.  Let's look deeper...

"modest living room" - Hmmm...really?  What does that mean exactly?  Your Slug is living room, so we already know we're in a living room.  You never want to repeat your Slug in the action/description lines that follow it.

"glass filled with whiskey" - awkwardly phrased - glass of whiskey".

"he is a good looking guy athletic and confident." - Very awkwardly phrased, and if nothing else, missing an important comma after guy.  But there's alot more wrong here than that.  It's obviously not impossible to "see" if someone sitting at a poker table is "athletic and confident", but it would be tough, for sure.  But more importantly, is that really what's important here?  Does it matter at this point?  I don't think so.

The next passage is filled with even more mistakes.  Extremely poor grammar, punctuation, awkward phrasings, incorrect capitalizations, etc.  As others mentioned, it's not a good way to intro 3 characters, either.

Bottom line, it's not a good way to start your script, as you've already made at least 10 mistakes and all we've seen is 4 dudes sitting in a modest living room at a poker table.

So, then Charlie speaks, and immediately, I see that the dialogue is not going to be good.  How many peeps really speak this way?  "I am telling..." - How about, "I'm telling..."  Peeps don't speak like they just learned English - they use contractions, first of all, and when with buds, playing poker and drinking, all bets are off.  As written, you need a comma after "guys".  Also, as written, this is completely OTN dialogue and there are far too many words being used.

The dialogue that follows is dull and also has a few mistakes here and there - nothing terrible, but interest is waning quickly already.

Whenever you use a name in dialogue, as in the speaker is addressing someone (pet names included), you always have to set that name off with a comma(s).  "So you agree Max?" - Should be, "So, you agree, Max?".  Little things, sure, but again, once you raise red flags, they're hard to miss when so little's going on.

Charlie's last line is a great example of what I'm talking about - the red flags waving.  Let's look at it...

"Its simple, your average home is so unprotected its ridiculous. I am in homes all the time that have opening after opening and yet they still say no to security."

You spelled "it's" wrong twice.  First comma is incorrect - use a period or an ellipsis.  "unprotected" - strange choice of words.  "I am" - again, "I'm". Sure, I guess if Charlie is a total nitwit dork type, he could speak this way, but it doesn't read well, doesn't sound right when hearing it, and should be changed, IMO.  "opening after opening" - another strange choice of words.  "...and yet they still say no to security" - very odd choice of words.  After reading the feedback, I know Charlie and his Dad are security system sales peeps, but we don't know this yet and the way Charlie says these things, it just sounds really odd.  The amount of mistakes make it all the worse.

Page 1, and I'm out.  Why?  Well, as I said, way too many mistakes, poor writing, but mostly, because it's dull and poorly set up.

What could you do to jump out of the gate quicker and show your readers they need to continue reading?  First of all, you CANNOT make a mistake in your opening line and/or passage.  You just can't do it.  I don't think anyone else would comment on your opening Slug being weak here, but in terms of obvious, blatant mistakes in your action/description lines?  Most will see these and shake their heads, knowing they're in for a long haul.

If you really want to start off with characters sitting around talking, you have to understand how important it is what they say and how they say it...as well as how they interact with each other.  Characters show "character" through their dialogue...again, what they say and how they say it.  You have to immediately show personality and "character", and you definitely have not done that here.

Set each scene visually so your readers know where we are.  Use Slugs to your advantage and then give life to each scene/setting.  Are we in a house, an apartment, a townhome, what?  "Modest" is not a good way to do that.  "Modest" is dull.  "Average" is dull.  Show us by pointing something out that "tells" us exactly where we are and who these peeps are.

Hope this doesn't come off as harsh, but more importantly, I hope this helps a bit.

Best of luck with this and all your writing going forward.
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YaBoyTopher
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Hey dreamscale thanks for the read. My grammar is a weakness for me and something that takes me alot of rewrites to repair, I really need to work on getting better at this. You make many great points, bad grammar, poorly phrased dialog and under defined slugs or descriptions can make a script unreadable no matter how interesting a story may end up being.

I am in the middle of writing another feature and filming a web series at the moment when I finish those up I will return to this for a re-write and apply the suggestions you, Alex and deadite gave me.

Its definitely an eye opener to have 3 readers not be able to finish your story due to grammar, poor dialog and lack of action so this feedback will not only help, refine this screenplay but all my future writing.

Thank you guys for all taking the time to give me some detailed feedback, If you dont mind I would like you to take a look again when I get a revision up to see if its improved at all.


My posted Scripts:
"The First Date" - Short Comedy
http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?m-1405598063/s-0/#num1
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rendevous
Posted: July 25th, 2014, 8:14pm Report to Moderator
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YBT,

I had a quick look at this after I read some of the feedback you've been getting.

I don't think it's half as bad as some do. Quite a bit of this stuff about grammar is way too harsh. You're writing a spec script, not a review for the New York Times.

That said, your script needs work. But most do.

The word 'athletic' sticks out in your first paragraph. When some see the likes of this their heckles go up, and you're in for a review that won't have much positive stuff in it all.

Many will just focus on what they see as mistakes, rather than try and see the story. They'll barely mention it.

If you intro three characters at the top of your story the reader will have forgotten them half a page later, if not sooner. Things will go downhill from there.

Focus on one character first. Have some brief dialogue or action then go onto the next one. Spread it out.

You should proof it before you put it up. If you don't feel your own skills are good enough to get up to scratch then get someone else who you think is good to do it for you.

Once you done all this post it. At least then readers can't pull you up on this stuff and they have to focus on the story. Of course you may still get a good kicking on the strength of it. But at least they'll be reading it and not telling you how to punctuate.

R




Out Of Character - updated


New Used Car

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The Deuce - OWC - now on STS

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Guest
Posted: July 25th, 2014, 9:04pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale


First of all, I do not agree with what Steve (deadite) told you about having to do this or that, and not being able to do this or that.  


Uh...you don't agree that he should try and inject his scenes with conflict?  You don't agree that he should try and milk his scenes a little bit better so they don't fall flat?  You don't agree that his dialogue is too stiff and direct and you don't agree that everyone speaks exactly what's on their mind?  You don't agree that he should work on any of that?  Are you stoned?  What the fuck are you smoking, brotha?  Can I take a hit?  Oh, wait, you ain't stoned!  You just didn't read past page 1 - like always - so you didn't see the problems that I saw!


Quoted from Dreamscale

You can do whatever you please,


Ugh, I see this phrase all over the board....  Yes, You can write whatever you want, don't ever let anyone tell you what not to write - But that advice does NOT give you a free pass to write flat, boring scenes that lack conflict.  That advice does NOT give you a free pass to write terrible, OTN dialogue, etc. etc.



Quoted from Dreamscale

and as you correctly said, many good to great movies start off slow, start with chit chat, etc.


Yeah, but he's not Quentin Tarantino.  A lot of writers watch directors like QT and see his endless opening intros of TALKING and think it's cool.  So they try to emulate it and for all the wrong reasons.  They don't realize that a thousand other things are going on and its not just about a few cats sitting around, shooting the shit.


Quoted from Dreamscale


I do not believe a script/movie has to follow any certain structure, and in fact, those that do, are usually extremely cliche, dull, and obvious, because we know exactly how everything will play out.

Those that play in the same boring sand box all play the same boring game by the same boring rules.  I always prefer to play outside that box and those that play with me understand how much fun it can be.


I agree!!!  But don't be boring about it.  There's nothing wrong with breaking rules and playing outside the sandbox, but that still does not give you a free pass to write boring, bland, flat, uneventful stories where nothing happens.  Please, whether you are breaking the rules or not, just entertain me.

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Leegion
Posted: July 25th, 2014, 9:14pm Report to Moderator
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Just wanted to chime in on the discussion.

Make the scenes snappy and to-the-point.  Make it interesting.  Hey, they're talking about ripping people off, AWESOME, why?  How are they gonna do it?  YES!  They're gonna parachute in from a spaceship and SMASH through the window!!!!!  Even awesomer!

Point is, do it your way but make it exciting.  Never leave it flat or dull.  ALWAYS, as others have stated this mythical SAND BOX, hell, don't go NEAR the sand box.  Stay as far a-freaking-way from the sand box as you possibly can.  THERE IS NO SAND BOX.  The sand box is a lie!  STAY OFF THE BEACH.  Go to a mountain, or a volcano, PLAY WITH FIRE.  Juggle that fire in your hands, throw it at the wall, open a portal to another dimension and rip something out.

Never go for the same old cliche-niche-blase borefest extravaganza everyone has seen before.  Always outside the box, on a mountain-volcano, in another dimension.

Mind flowing, never ceasing, always chugging away at the brutality of deriving a concept from the back of your noggin.  Conflict, misery, death, torture, life, EXISTENCE!  Why are these characters here, what is their motive, dreams, ambitions, LIFE GOALS.  Show them conceiving the ULTIMATE plan of villainy!  Quick, snappy, straight to it.  

Always moving forward, each scene leads to the next and so on, never EVER have scenes that mean nothing.  Do it your way, my friend.  WRITE IT YOUR WAY, but keep it so damn tense, so exciting, that no one will ever forget the ride!

That's my two cents.  

Lee
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YaBoyTopher
Posted: July 25th, 2014, 9:45pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from rendevous
YBT,

I had a quick look at this after I read some of the feedback you've been getting.

I don't think it's half as bad as some do. Quite a bit of this stuff about grammar is way too harsh. You're writing a spec script, not a review for the New York Times.

That said, your script needs work. But most do.

The word 'athletic' sticks out in your first paragraph. When some see the likes of this their heckles go up, and you're in for a review that won't have much positive stuff in it all.

Many will just focus on what they see as mistakes, rather than try and see the story. They'll barely mention it.

If you intro three characters at the top of your story the reader will have forgotten them half a page later, if not sooner. Things will go downhill from there.

Focus on one character first. Have some brief dialogue or action then go onto the next one. Spread it out.

You should proof it before you put it up. If you don't feel your own skills are good enough to get up to scratch then get someone else who you think is good to do it for you.

Once you done all this post it. At least then readers can't pull you up on this stuff and they have to focus on the story. Of course you may still get a good kicking on the strength of it. But at least they'll be reading it and not telling you how to punctuate.

R




Thanks for the kind words, I think the mistake I made was putting up an early draft this is essentially the first draft, I did so because I felt the story was flat in a few areas and wanted some suggestions before re-writing but I now see that this was too raw and unpolished at this point that most cant get through the story to give suggestions on the story as a whole.

This was a learning experience for me though and I appreciate all the great suggestions from everyone, In the future I will wait until later drafts to post though.


Quoted Text
Make the scenes snappy and to-the-point.  Make it interesting.  Hey, they're talking about ripping people off, AWESOME, why?  How are they gonna do it?  YES!  They're gonna parachute in from a spaceship and SMASH through the window!!!!!  Even awesomer!

Point is, do it your way but make it exciting.


Thanks for the comment, this is actually something I feel I do effectively in my other features (believe it or not lol) but I agree with everyone that I missed the mark with this particular script. Hopefully I can rectify it in future drafts.

Thanks for the wise words!



My posted Scripts:
"The First Date" - Short Comedy
http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?m-1405598063/s-0/#num1
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