One tough thing about learning the craft, is that you often have to take opinions from the higher ups as the holy gospel (not really, never abandon the holy salt, it's part of being a healthy adult). But what happens when two gospels contradict? Who do we trust?

Well I mean I'm an atheist so that's as far as I can take this stupid analogy but...

John Truby says the idea is everything. And that he can spot an amateur if a writer doesn't have the conviction to work "the idea" into the ground and analyze whether it supports a good structure. I can't find the youtube video oddly enough. I remember it though from long ago. You're just gonna have to trust me on it...

Richard Walter says "the idea" is worthless. You should never care about the idea. Just write. There are plenty of examples of great film/television that are centered around main ideas that are suspect, such as the King's Speech.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocaXVw8X87E&t=7s

At the end of the day, my logic lobes are telling me to trust Truby, simply because White offered very anectodal evidence, and I've seen more evidence that we more easily obtain the nuts and bolts of a story if we can extract them from the idea. And I don't agree with his Breaking Bad example. A High School teacher leading a secret life as a drug kingpin? Next to a mobster seeing a psychiatrist, that's the best idea I ever saw! So my question is I guess, what's your viewpoint and what do you personally do when you arrive at such a crossroads, as a healthy adult who can isten, but with the right dose of scrutiny, always.

Just my opinion - but I think they are both wrong in their attempt to make these two elements (great idea - great writing) mutually exclusive.

Some well written scripts fail because the story's central premise is boring.

Some scripts with great premises fail because the writing is horrible.

The best scripts have both elements.

The "idea" is what gets anyone to even open your script in the first place.  That is key.

Once they've opened the script, however, then it is all up to you.  That is key.

The problem begins when someone wants to teach writing or screenwriting(probably any artistic form). In order to teach it, you have to first break it down into the simplest and most generalized components. You find common threads, then articulate a system.

For example, modern advice(since Hemingway) to fiction writers is to always use as few words as possible. What is good advice to those learning prose becomes a rule.

Same thing happens in screenwriting of course.

Truby is excellent. But he does tend to write these things as though they are canonical laws. For example, he says that the very purpose of story is to show the hero changing. There are too many examples of excellent stories where that is not the case for Truby to put it in such absolute terms.

Telling a story, in any form, is about capturing and holding the intention of an audience. And if you're good enough, leaving a lasting impression on them.

Many teachers of systems tend to put the cart before the horse. A hero's journey is a useful story form BECAUSE it is great for holding an audience's attention. The hero's need to change is just one more obstacle he faces, and the story maker's job is to stack up obstacles. This creates suspense.

My advice is to do what you're doing and don't stop: namely, keep investigating. Read the gurus. Read amateur reviews on IMDB and Amazon. And in the end, trust your own instincts. Watch movies and be conscious of the structure that is used in scenes to engage our interest, to make us feel.

I think you'll find that absolute claims just don't hold true, though they sell books
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Bottom line: if your title and concept causes people to open your script, and if your style and story structuring causes them to keep turning the page, you're doing the right thing!

Quoted Text I think you'll find that absolute claims just don't hold true, though they sell books

Concur!

I watched a Paul Walker movie on Netflix called the Lazarus Project last night. Low budget. Has a rating of 6.2 on IMDB. This is exactly the kind of project I think most writers here would be aiming for as a breakout opportunity. I have no idea if there was a spec script.

It's not a great movie, or even good. But 6.2 for a low budget is a good rating. And as there are no special effects and only one name actor, I think we can assume the story itself was somewhat satisfying to audiences.

And once again: no character arc at all. The character absolutely does NOT change.

SPOILERS

Ben has a beautiful wife and daughter, happily married. He's on parole and trying to live clean. He's doing well at his job at the brewery. His brother gets out of jail, asks him to help with a crime caper, and Ben refuses.

But the next day he gets fired because his company finds out about his past as a thief. So now desperate, he agrees to do the job with his brother. But it goes bad and people die, including the brother. Ben gets sentenced to life, and two years later he is executed(not realistic, but it's a movie).

Ben doesn't die though. Or does he? He wakes up to a new life working as a groundskeeper at a mental institution a thousand miles away.

The story moves slowly. Little suspense or action. Mystery is the driving force: where is he really? The second driving force is: will he ever get back to his family?

The major plot turns come in the third act. But there is no change in our hero at all. Ben never wanted to commit the crime in the first place, he was driven to it; and he regretted it immediately after what happened. He really had nothing to learn. He never gives up on getting back to his family. That never changes, and that is what saves him in the end.

So it's another example of where absolute claims of theorists just didn't apply. In fact, inside the institutions there are constant efforts to get him to move on, to accept he won't see his family again. They pressure him to change...and he has to RESIST change to succeed.

This industry is chock full of people who insist on rules: your character must change, he must have a flaw, your main character must be the most interesting, thou shalt not write an aside, thou shalt not use a passive verb, and if you don't know what that is, thou shalt not use "ing". The one thing the people that insist on this stuff all have in common is this: none of them are making or selling movies.

The idea will get you reads... I know this because I have really good luck at getting people to ask for the script to read BUT I am still so amateur and bad at writing that I cannot make a good concept work in a 100 page script. So it really sucks and is discouraging ..at times.

But a GREAT idea will get your reads. For sure.

If you don't have the writing chops to make the story work though you will not sell anything (like me so far).