Script Club VI: Jagged

Well, finished reading it yesterday in one sitting. I'm going with the first impression part.

I enjoyed it, but I think it could be pushed further more. What I'm talking about is  the end.

At the end, when Jenna confronts Brad, would Brad give in to her so easily realizing his life is over? I don't think so. Push that a bit more. Maybe have him confront them all at that time? This is his life we're talking about.

Story wise, the concept really captures the reader. It's simple, realistic and as a result effective.

Overall, I liked all the characters since the reader can separate them from each other in accordance to their past and actions. They also have a distinctive arc. What I'm interested in is Brad's history of how he came to be this way.

The dialogue I think needs a bit more work though. They all talk the same, in my opinion.

Writing is crisp and clean. No problem there.

Commercial appeal, defiantly. It hits all ages but more precisely the teenagers.

Hope I'm did this right. lol.

(If you want to know why I did it this way, well, I'm kind of confused on how the selections are going to be discussed over in terms of days? Like one day for this topic and another day for this topic. That's how I interpreted. confused, I decided to go with the more common way, I decided to talk about it all following pia's order. Sorry if it's wrong but a review is a review.)

My first impression...

unrealistic

First impression: poor and unrealistic
Story/structure/plot: Next to none/poor/same as story
Characterization/arc/journey:shallow and unintereting, woman characters unrealistic, no dercernable protagonist, antagonist is a one dimensional jock with little depth past what is obvious to the reader, arc and journey suffer from unrealistic turning points and everything I mentioned before."
Dialogue: Uneconomical, and sometimes silly. A good actor will slash and burn most of it during filmming.
Writing: Lack's originality, reads like the writers rushed through it without taking the time/effort to flush out a strong story line.
Commercial appeal: As it is now it is a definate pass on for all criterias.

Okay people, there seem to have been some misunderstanding here. :-)

I wanted everyone's first impression first then we take one subject at the time after that.

We'll move on to story/plot/structure tomorrow or after midnight tonight.

Sorry if I confused everyone... I often do. ;D

my first impression: good, but slagging.

Quoted from Grandma Bear

Sorry my fault I thought after 1 week it was fair game.

Just to get the ball rolling let me ask you then why you thought the story was unrealistic. I read the reviews of this script and realized all the reviewers were men and they generally liked it.

Quoted from eric11

Just to get the ball rolling let me ask you then why you thought the story was unrealistic.

Exactly the same reasons you did. ;-)

Quoted from Grandma Bear

Exactly the same reasons you did. ;-)

I think men in general lack the consitution to write believable female characters well, can you blame us ?. When we get to the character part could you offer some insight as to what a woman would actually do in this type of situation.

Actually there were quite a few things I found unrealistic. Besides the dialogue and certain situations throughout there were things like Kelsey (16) listening to "rules" by her sister Jenna (17). I'm talking about watching Basic Instinct which IMHO also needs to be changed to something a little more up to date.

First impressions: A well written, well thought out script, that would work fine as a film, like an afternoon special sort of film, but it needed more grit to really be a theatrical movie. The script tries to get gritty but it never actually does. IMHO

I found those 'rules' a little weird myself (maybe Basic Instinct should be changed to something like Alpha Dog). Another thing I thought was kinda goofy was that Alex knew exactly where to find Brad at the end and set him up....and he just happened to be cheating on Jenna at the time. It seemed all too easy for me in the way that Brad got caught.

Quoted Text

I agree. A lot of things could've been milked more.

First impression... In a word,

"omission"

the omission of adults (or adult rationale) hurt character and plot.

BLB

Sorry Pia. It was my bad. :( I'll add more detail to the other topics to make it up. :)

My first impressions are exactly like Pia's thoughts.  Completely unrealistic.

I am stunned with this story.  I can't believe it, I'm sorry George but this story is SO over-the-top.  The first two pages had me dumbfounded.

There's a bully who secretly is a friend of Alex, a sixteen year old getting told to go to sleep by a seventeen year old, and a girl called Emma asking if she can take Laura's place at the top of the pyramind.  Lots of tiny things that cannot be true or sounds silly.

I think unrealistic covers most points by me.

The only positive is that the writing is quick and easy to read.

I agree with most of the suggestions made - but the main problem with me was the lack of tension which it didn't make me want to read more. I managed to read this piece by piece for two days a week ago.

The writing is good by the way and it flows well, i give you that. Anyway I'm not so sure what made you want to write this script and i think it's an old script of yours if I'm not wrong.

I agree with Mc. It really seems like a lifetime movie of the week. Except there's no role for Meredith Baxter Birney.

The girl who can clear the whole thing up just happens to slip into a coma, which she miraculously comes out of once the case has been cleared up? And when Brad is talking to himself in the mirror, and the mirror talks back? And i didn't like Kelsey's flashacks. We know what happened to her. We don't need the flashbacks.

No worries Gabe.

I just thought first impressions would help us later on in order to figure out where things went wrong or right. Especially if condensed to a word or two.

I'm glad you all participating. That's great!

I confused on how it was going to be dealt such as if it was one day one topic and so on...which it was...lol.

i guess I'm the only one who thought this was realistic. lol. I leave my comments for when the story/ plot topic comes up.

Wow, ol' George is taking a beating here in the early going.

As George has agreed to remain silent for a week or so, I feel I should jump in here with a quick caveat on his behalf.

Knowing George's work -- and knowing George as much as anybody can know anyone over the internet -- George brings a certain sensibility to his work, and generally writes things you could watch with a teenager and not have to cringe while viewing.

I have not had time to read this yet -- I hope to -- but I think most readers are going in expecting something with a very hard edge to it. If you are looking for lots of sex and drugs and language, you do not find that in George's work.

Bear that in mind while recommending changes, and also bear in mind that he hopes to shoot this himself.

If you suggest the he add lots of nudity and drugs to heat things up, that is not somewhere he will likely want to go.

To make this exercise useful, you must critique this script as the type of film it is intended to be, and suggest improvements accordingly.

Geez.... I really hate to say this, but I recommend you reading it first bert. I feel the comments so far has nothing to do with wanting more sex or hard edge to it.

I am also familiar with his work btw. I've read a LOT of his scripts. Even Simply Godfather which I believe I'm one of very few who did.

Quoted from bert

If you suggest the he add lots of nudity and drugs to heat things up, that is not somewhere he will likely want to go.

It's strange you bring this up Bert, because i never thought about nudity and stuff and know that i think --- no even nudity or a couple of sex scene wouldn't help. The scripts could use them probably and they could be helpful. I'm not sure though, but still i think that wouldn't change things.

The problem was that it had no tension or better said i had no interest to keep on reading the script. That's my point.

Nudity and sex and what not had little, if not nothing for me personal, as to what I thought was wrong with this story.

Quickie on plot/story/structure before I fall asleep.

Even though the focus is on the teens, they think, therefore act like there aren�t any adults around, which hurts among other things plot/story. This has been tagged a drama, but it�s also a crime/detective story. I understand keeping in with that the teens are the main focus that the investigator doesn�t have to be a literally detective or cop. It can be a teen like Alex. But still, put it in the subtext that the teens have encountered actual detectives or police (of screen I mean). On the text it appears little if at all that these kids talked to any adults, and during a rape investigation that�s what is unrealistic about it. No police that arriving on the scene, no lead detective looking into the case and no parents between the victim and two suspects.

Because the elimination of this most plausible aspect of adults and police being present (being unseen motivators), the plot comes of unrealistic. And the characters are weaker for it. Basically because the characters (starting with Brad) never have to explain themselves, come up with good plans and stronger motives. The crime/detective has a lot of details in concerns with plot. It�s hard, but that�s the job.

BLB

Quoted from bert

If you suggest the he add lots of nudity and drugs to heat things up, that is not somewhere he will likely want to go.

To make this exercise useful, you must critique this script as the type of film it is intended to be, and suggest improvements accordingly.

Aww, you caught me. I'm ALWAYS thinking about nudity.

But honestly, it wasn't nudity that I was suggesting when I said grittier. What I meant was that it tries to take some very wholesome kids and make them do some bad things. IMHO It doesn't work the way it is, the wholesome kids being bad isn't believable. They need to be less wholesome. And as someone else suggested, where are the adults?

As far as your suggestion for critiquing the film as what it's intended to be, we could critique it as a TV movie, which many of us saw this as, or we could critique it as a theatrical film. I think George intended the latter. Yes? No?

I apologize up front for any mean or harsh statements I'm going to make...because there're going to be alot of them.

First impression

Terrible...absolutely terrible. Completely and shockingly unrealistic. Not a single thing here even remotely worked for me. I actually had to look away from my screen several times and bury my face in my hands, because I was shocked at what I was reading.

I will go on in much more detail when we're ready to go forward, but in all honesty this is as unrealistic, dull, and unengaging as anything I've ever read, or any after school special that I saw back in the 70's.

Sorry for this, but I really can't come up with anything remotely positive to say.

I could understand the adults not being around if these kids were lost cause types, like always getting into trouble, drinking and partying.

Many parents are like that-- they've tried to steer their children away from bad stuff, but after a while they can't help/control it and they sort of just become blank to when their kids come in late or do whatever they want.

Either that, or the parents are usually always at work, or they themselves are busy dipping into the same kinds of things their teens are.

Just a thought.

Yeah, the complete lack of parents or literally anyone over the age of "about 17" is another shocker. I agree that in many cultures, or areas of the country, kids do what they want and have no supervision. This does not come off as any such place though.

Although Alex drinks vodka fom a bottle and smokes pot in his bedroom, while his Mom is downstairs may lead us to believe this, to me, it's just another example of an incredibly poorly thought out story.

These kids come off as affluent types, living in a nice area. They don't swear at all, don't seem to have cell phones, never text each other, but they all seem to have sex like it's a natural act for 16 and 17 year olds. The way they talk sounds like they're from a fairytale.

My first impression was that I've seen this before. I felt that it followed the rules, but it didn't have anything that made it different.

I think it was a good read. It was interesting to wonder about Alex and Brad's relationship before Brad became who he is today.

I think if I were to work on this project, I'd try and build more into their relationship and leave out some of the chitty chat of the girls. I've got more to say on that when Pia moves us forward in the discussion, but right now I'll say that I think having Alex try to "save" Brad from himself before things get really bad would be interesting.

Right now, as it stands, he's just putting up with being kicked around. He's just a showpiece for the screen effect of a beating which works well in the beginning of this, but if you could show Alex trying to make Brad come to his senses, then we'd know "why" he's putting up with it. Maybe he truly DOES think that the old Brad's still in there.

Sandra

Is the trade off worth it though?

Slabby I noticed you neglected to mention the police. I see where you coming from, but also that�s a cope out because it�s, I don�t want to say easier writing aloof parents, but it is easy when they appear to be completely absent. Even if I accept that premise that still doesn�t explain the cops and investigation. And I�m not literally present on screen, but I don�t feel them at all. A girl was raped there is no cops or investigation even in subtext.

If we literally put investigators on the screen it would destroy his whole, plot and in my eyes for the better because by omitting them his plot is weak. Example, arriving police officer comes to the scene and arrest the two boys pointing fingers at one another, Alex could quickly point out the watch. Or the detective assigned to the case could see it. I think there�s a difference between a cheerleader�s watch and a star football player. I could on and on I�ll save some for later� I think Dreamscale will feel in the blanks for me.

BLB

Quoted from Grandma Bear

This is exactly something I wrote about in my notes. There's no way a 16 year old is going to listen to a 17 year old! My 17 year old doesn't even listen to my 22 year old!

Sandra

Funny Bee, I think you're right...I could go on and on about what's missing here, what in now way is working, etc. I'm trying really hard to stay within the rules, and wait, but it is difficult. Your point is well taken though and I was thinking the same thing over and over that at some point, we're going to have to haev an adult involved...a parent, a cop, anyone! But no, nothing...just some Scooby Doo type detective work by Alex.

Luckily, Monday Night Football is coming on, so I can hopefully restrain myself a bit.

I am interested in hearing a bit more detail on people's first impressions though.

Okay, seems like you guys are ready to move on to story/structure/plot.

I agree with a lot of the comments so far.
I agree that the absence of adults hurts this badly. I also think Cornetto's point about them being wholesome kids dealing with a SERIOUS subject. Serial rapist! Also agree with Sandra too.

Story wise I guess George's logline "When a jock forces himself on the newfound love of a school nerd, the nerd must find a way to prove his innocence against the jock's accusations." sums it up pretty good. It's not original or fresh, but it's a plot that could work. It is in the telling of this story that this doesn't work as good as it could. This is where some of the major "unrealistic" things took place IMO.

I got a feeling this was sort of a nice community, not too big, but not a small village either. Something similar to what happened to Laura happened earlier in my town (250,000) and it was all over the local news for months. In this script it's treated as nothing that serious at all. ... hello!! a young girl being beate and raped to the point she ends up in a coma!!! I had huge issues with this.

I had other issues too, but I have to go serve dinner now... bbs ;-)

The question's come up about adults not figuring in the script. In many children's books, for the purpose of entertainment and because of limited time elements, parents only exist for a few reasons: (ha-ha! That's probably in real life too!) to pay the bills, to serve some food, and to do some cleaning up.

To make this script a little more balanced by adding in an adult now and then makes sense. Of course, they only need to poke their nose in enough to prove they're around.

As far as the police investigation goes: I don't know what you could do to make it more realistic. How about foreshadow it as something the town thinks is Laura's fault. Like show her dressing in tight short skirts and have the town be in the biggest Bible belt community around. Show the people frowning at such an outrage.

If perhaps, this was a closed community of Mormons or such, then a girl doing this would indeed be frowned upon and people would figure "she" was responsible for leading him on.

If police entered the community as kind of outsiders and listened to testimonies that placed Laura at fault, then this might change the way the case is handled.

Sandra

Quoted from Dreamscale

Although Alex drinks vodka fom a bottle and smokes pot in his bedroom, while his Mom is downstairs may lead us to believe this, to me, it's just another example of an incredibly poorly thought out story.

These kids come off as affluent types, living in a nice area. They don't swear at all, don't seem to have cell phones, never text each other, but they all seem to have sex like it's a natural act for 16 and 17 year olds. The way they talk sounds like they're from a fairytale.

In the first part of your post, I wouldn't go that far. I know a lot of people who get away with worse stuff than that in their own bedroom, or in their basement for that matter. Some parents are just plain oblivious, but some are also lenient, or just don't care -- maybe if you started throwing it in their face -- then things would change.

The second part. Besides the lack of foul language, I never even took notice for the other things that are missing such as the cell phone/texting. every teen has a cell phone and is usually on the text.

Quoted from Busy Little Bee

Yeah I did forget to mention the police. It is a very grave and humorless situation-- the girl being raped and almost beaten to with an inch of her life.

I think law enforcement needs to have a bigger part in this too. We should at least see some hard interrogation scenes at least.

I think George does make a big issue over the rape portrayed through the Alex, Jenna, and Colin characters. I remember a scene where I think where one character heard from another character about the rape. It was a telephone scene.

But I think George couldn't go deeper into it since
A. budget reasons if he ever wants to make it into a film
B. It gets too much characters involved. If the detective was included, then George would need to provide some (didn't complete this thought...lol) information on him. Too much things to remember in my opinion. Even for secondary characters.

His point was to focus on these 5 characters (Brad, Alex, Jenna, Colin, and Kelsey) which I think he did a good job on. Jenna, Colin, and Kelsey serve as the town I guess in way since they react to the bad news. You don't need a group of people or news to portray how the town reacts. These characters are sufficient, and they handle it in their own ways.

For example, Kelsey, a prior victim, is devastated. She can't tell no one because in fear of being hated by the sister and being frowned upon in society if her allegations is found not true. Brad is a serial rapist in terms of he has done this before because the reader knows, but unless Kelsey or any other victim character come up and say it in the script, he can't be charged. As George pointed out in the park scene, Brad could blame someone else and he has money, which he says in the jail scene.

The story revolves around Alex. It's his story. We start off with him and we end with him. I'm talking too much and it's going take me a load of time to answer every remark...lol. So, I'm leaving it here for the time being.

I agree with you to a point Gabe, but the characters reactions should be a LOT stronger. As it is written right now, it seems like something minor'ish that has happened to Laura. It's barely mentioned. Everyone should be terribly upset. They should go visit her or at least talk a lot more about how hard it was to go visit her in the hospital.
Like someone said earlier, it all seems very convenient what happened to her.

This script is very short so there's lots of room for George to expand on these things.

Point taken Pia. Maybe Kelsey should visit Laura or George should show a news paper with the headlines commenting on what happened. And obviously, maybe have Alex visit Laura, or make Alex make an attempt to visit her.

George's got 20 more pages of room to expand on these things.

Quoted from Grandma Bear

Geez.... I really hate to say this, but I recommend you reading it first bert.

Yeah... just my lazy way of trying to contribute without having read the script.

You can issue a penalty beating later if you want.

I do hope I can find the time to check it out.

It's a short read, Bert...youc an get through it in literally an hour. You really should read it and let us know what you think.

I really don't enjoy being so negative, and I never want to upset or put anyone down, but this script isn't what I was expecting...or hoping for at all. I'm literally stunned by its ineptitude.

Just got through reading it...

First impression...it missed the mark...but now that I have said that...I do believe it could easily be cleaned up...the main premise of the story is there...it just needs some work.

I don't want to beat an already "dead horse" here (from all the other posts)...so I will wait until we get into more of the "meat" of this discussion.

George...I think you should have had a female to collaborate with! :)

Quoted from Grandma Bear

I completely agree with you Pia and the thing is:

Even though I was thinking these exact thoughts, there was a side to the story that "helped" me to overlook it. That's really strange!!!!

But yes!!! I was thinking: Where is the action? How come nobody is going after Brad? Don't they have the evidence that he's the one? Are the police a bunch of dim-wits?

Nevertheless, the story carried itself well I thought. And this fact probably proves that timed and structured events hold weight in our minds even if logicality (is there such a word?) doesn't.

Right now I'm staying with the two characters of Alex and Brad as being the main characters. I'd like to see the girls taking up a lot less space in the script.

This has already been a very interesting learning experience for me.

Thank you George.

Sandra

Quoted from Grandma Bear

Okay, seems like you guys are ready to move on to story/structure/plot.

So are we moving on to the story/structure/plot portion of discussion?

Yes, that's what Pia has indicated, but I think if others are joining in late, we're still ready to be in "First Impressions" mode which I think was an excellent way to begin.

This is a way for us to take a long shot of the film and describe it from a grand perspective before we start getting into the little nit picks.

One thing I do notice with these threads:

They do move quickly. It's Monday and I'm not late, but I've missed a whole pile already I can see-- go figure.

Sandra

I know it might be moving fast, but I also know George will jump in next Monday and can't wait to do so. I think from the previous SC we've seen that once the author chimes in to "explain" the script, the discussions die down.

IMO a script is not complete or successful if it needs to be explained. Studio readers don't contact authors to find out what they meant by this or that. Right now this script needs some help and I think that's what we are here to do. Trying to figure out why this isn't working as it is.

Regarding the structure, I don't have a problem with it. Sure, there's nothing new or fresh here, but as a plot it works okay.

Hero is "friends" with villain.
Hero meets girl.
Villain rapes sister of villain's girlfriend.
Villain rapes hero's girl.
Hero is wrongly accused.
Hero proves villain did it.
Villain has to come to terms with what he's done.
Hero and girl start a relationship. (walk into the sunset so to speak)

It's pretty basic. If this structure is a Christmas tree, it's a decent one. It's when George went to decorate it that he screwed up some. He just needs to remove some of the ornaments, add a few new once and add some dazzle to it.

PS. If anyone tells me I have a short temper then...then... then I'm gonna get mad!! ;-)

My problem was how the villain comes to terms with it. I don't think he would give up so easily. There needs to be more tension at that scene when Brad confronts Jenna.

I agree with BLB.  We don't need to actually see adults on screen, but we do need to be aware that they're out there and acting.

And i do like the Kelsey character.  I think her arc is a pretty good one.

And let's try to keep this polite.  There are issues with this screenplay, and we're here to discuss them, but there's no reason to be insulting.  We're all here for the same reason.

Story/structure/plot

As Pia said, there's absolutely nothing new or fresh here at all, but that's not the biggest issue.  The problem is how it plays out and how the characters act and come across (but I guess I better bite my tongue until we get to characters).

I really don't know what to say because the story just doesn't come off as being even remotely real.  We have a daily beating going on, yet our "hero", Alex, is never mentioned as showing any signs of wear and tear (parents and teachers would have to take notice of this).  We have all our characters being within 1 year of each other, all apparently attending the same High School, but for some reason, completely unaware of who each other is for the most part (including 2 sisters, 1 year apart and close, but completely clueless to each others freinds).  Alex is described as a "nerd", but yet he drinks vodka out of a bottle, smokes pot daily, and has no trouble hooking up with the hottest chick in school after 1 brief meeting with her.  Our "jock" and antagonist, is a pot smoking, serial rapist, yet the most popular kid in school and star athlete.

None of the action or daily goings on ring at all true.  None of the relationships make any sense or seem real.  The "plot" is a 1973 after school special that's been worked to death again and again, and again.

I don't meant o be insulting, if that comment was aimed at me.  I honestly don't get off on that.  The more I think about this though, I have to say that I'm a bit upset we're spening the amount of time on it that we are...and will.  Maybe I should bow out...

Don't leave Jeff! We need honesty and I'm sure that's what George wants to see too. Some people deliver critisism gently and others are more blunt. That's just how it goes.

I agree Gabe about Brad dealing with his situation doesn't fit his character. We'll probably discuss that more when we get to character.

Seamus,

thanks for taking part. :-)

Quoted from Grandma Bear

It's pretty basic. If this structure is a Christmas tree, it's a decent one. It's when George went to decorate it that he screwed up some. He just needs to remove some of the ornaments, add a few new once and add some dazzle to it.

Me I think he may have to do more than just that. I have been reading alot of the comments by peeps so far. What I noticed is that most of the attention has been focusing primarily on the content of the script: like the scarcity of Adults in the story or absence of cops. All good points, but really tivial stuff compared to what actually makes a story work. For real has anyone here scene Being John Malkovich, or Monty Pathon? Yes realism is important but it isn't IMHO pertinent to a story well told.

The root of the problem is story structure, and originality. this is why I am just dying to let lose on the things that I see being the real problem with the script which is the story structure, the introduction and presentation of the characters, and the god awful dialogue that made me cringe and chuckle at the same time.

Writers need to realize how hard it really is to write for movies. It is really really hard. Think about the millions of scripts that are attempted every year and only the handful that get choosen for the big screen or broad cast on television. You are talking about winning the Lottery type odds. Until this reality sinks in, people will never properly learn the craft of screenwriting.

Quoting Mckee. "It's not about formula, it's about form".

PS I would be willing to help George with this script if he asked me too. It's all on him.

OK Pia, I'm back.  I really can't seem to stay out even if I really wanted to.

Eric, I think that "realism" needs to be taken in context with what's being said.  If a script or movie is being played for laughs, or just unreality (like your 2 examples), that's a completely different story.  This script is supposed to be a serious, "real" story...at least I think it is.

There's so much more wrong here than story and structure.  And yeah, I agree with you for sure about the dialogue being horrendous, cringe-worthy, and laugh out loud bad at times.

Sure the story is feeble and the structure is dull, but a script or movie can still work with these issues.  This script cannot work unless it literally went through a complete, and I mean "complete" overhaul.  Nothing in here works the way it is now...nothing, and based on the been there done that story and plot, I don't see any reason to want to overhaul this.  It's kind of like wanting to fix up a 1976 AMC Pacer...the question just comes down to, "why?".

I think most seem to agree with this, but some still want to sugar coat their comments and throw out a little praise here and there.  I'm sorry, but I cannot throw out any praise here, because I just don't see where it's warranted.

Quoted from Dreamscale

I know what you mean, I am always comming across as negative with my comments. So much so one guy labelled me ever writers worst nightmare. What could I say but explain that I had a nightmarish teacher who knew his stuff.

This script never made me upset but it certainly made me think.

I mentioned earlier that I believe that the "framework" of the screenplay is in tact (Pia did a great job of referring to it as a Christmas tree...I loved that!)

There is nothing new about this story...it has been told many times...so if it's going to be told again...it needs to have that "something extra" to make it come alive...or it will fall into the black hole abyss of movies that don't quite measure up.

Getting into the Story/Structure/Plot I do agree a lot with what Dreamscale had to say...I found myself saying, while reading, "how come they don't know each other?"  I tried to analyze this in my mind and as Pia said, "you shouldn't have to do that."

It's obvious that they grew up together...or at least a few of them did, but how did the nerd turn out to be the cool one?  Because he smokes pot and drinks alchohol?  I don't think so...maybe the antagonism from Brad to Alex should be a little more nasty...not the school yard bullying of what would normally take place with 12 or 13 year olds.

I do think parents are a vital missing element...the only one that has a parent is Alex, the pot smoking/vodka drinker :) The parents don't have to be in our face...but they should be in there or at least implied.

How about Laura's mother sitting by her bed in the hospital crying and she tries to hide her emotions when Jenna and Kelsey come to visit. Maybe the girls tell Laura's mom that their mother sends her thoughts and prayers. (The mother's would know each other because the girls are on the same cheerleading squad)

Maybe Jenna picks up Laura's hand and Laura squeezes it tight...she's in a comma...but somehow it signals she's still aware...and who better for Laura to reach out to or respond to than Jenna...the girlfriend of the bastard that raped her. Maybe Laura's subconcious mind is trying to warn her.

Quoted from Dreamscale

Story/structure/plot

I really don't know what to say because the story just doesn't come off as being even remotely real. We have a daily beating going on, yet our "hero", Alex, is never mentioned as showing any signs of wear and tear (parents and teachers would have to take notice of this). We have all our characters being within 1 year of each other, all apparently attending the same High School, but for some reason, completely unaware of who each other is for the most part (including 2 sisters, 1 year apart and close, but completely clueless to each others freinds). Alex is described as a "nerd", but yet he drinks vodka out of a bottle, smokes pot daily, and has no trouble hooking up with the hottest chick in school after 1 brief meeting with her. Our "jock" and antagonist, is a pot smoking, serial rapist, yet the most popular kid in school and star athlete.

This story has to become "real" and there certainly is a lot more room to make this feasible.  I think Dreamscale also mentioned it seemed more like a 1973 afterschool show...and it does...and maybe that is why so many parts of it are not believable...bring the script into 2008!

One more thing that I think doesn't work...wouldn't the police question the fact that she had a guys watch clutched in her hand???  It's all sort of tidy how it shows up in the end...

Again...if Alex was suspect...how would he get out of jail...wouldn't there be talk at school.

It's true that a 16 year old (Kelsey) could idolize her 17 year old sister (Jenna)...but I think this would work better if there were a couple of years between them.

The key to changing this is to make it real....maybe add a cell phone call from Laura to Alex to tell him she's waiting at the park bench, so the time of the call is used to help clear him...and to prove his innocence when he answers and says he is on his way...

The one think I did like was how Brad talked to himself in the mirror...the good guy versus the bad one...but this could be written a lot bolder...more believable.

Back to Christmas trees...take the decorations off George and try again...build the main premise of this story...

And finally...when George is able to address us...it would be good to know where this will be aired...is it for TV is it PG rated...more details on this would help in the beginning. Infact...I think moving forward it would help to have a quick memo from the writer and basic info to help us critique it for what it is being pitched for right at the beginning. :)

I don't think the decorations were ever on the tree to start. More like Charlie Brown's lil Christmas tree...

Dreamscale said:

"Eric, I think that "realism" needs to be taken in context with what's being said. If a script or movie is being played for laughs, or just unreality (like your 2 examples), that's a completely different story. This script is supposed to be a serious, "real" story...at least I think it is."

Reply:

You interpreted this story to be a serious drama but I never got that impression at all and neither did the writer clearify that to us. IMO what determines the seriousness of a story is the arch of the characters not the content alone. that's why I am pushing story structure as the main fault with the script not the content persay.

It is like me trying to tell you how to paint a picture. It doesn't work. Art is subjective, realism is subjective, and that is why people say reality is stranger than fiction, because we all know its true.

Dreamscale said:
"Sure the story is feeble and the structure is dull, but a script or movie can still work with these issues."

Reply:
I disagree! It is like me trying to prove I can make music like Mozart without first learning, music notation, rhythm, and the mathematical precision that goes into composing an actual symphony.

Story and structure is everything. It is what makes a movie watchable.

Dreamscale said:
"This script cannot work unless it literally went through a complete, and I mean "complete" overhaul."

Reply:

I will agree to that.

Excellent post Morgan!

This what George said about his intentions for the film is.

My aim for for a standard motion picture feature. No time restraints. No rating restraints. I am aiming for a no-budget type feature, but for a drama, that's more about producer creativity and connections than any level of restraints on the story line. I have no issues with doing major rewrites if that's what it takes.

Eric, we've had this discussion before...al the way down to your music analogy.  I hope we don't have to have it again.  We're really not disagreeing on anything other than the extent of how we feel and what is a bigger cause of this scripts problems.

Are you saying that you think this script is a comedy?  Do you think it's meant to be taken as light hearted?  C'mon, look at the subject matter.

I don't think we need to be able to write, compose, or actually make music like Mozart to be able to write, compose, or make music.  There always will be lots of "great" music that is of a very simple nature, and that's the same with scripts and movies.  No one needs to write the next "Godfather" to be able to write an entertaining or commercially successful script or movie, right?  Good scripts come in the form of rehashed story/plot/structure all the time,a dn they can still be good flicks.

Glad we are square on the final issue though!

PS  I can't for the life of me pull quotes out of other posts either!!!!!  It's driving me mad!!!!  AYYYEEE!!!!

John Malkvoich? Monty Pathon? I don't think we're talking about the same thing. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (one of my favs) is unrealistic in that there�s no mind eraser, but we already know the rules going into the story and after there established the story doesn�t cheat.

Usually, detective stories work best when the audience discovers things when the audience does. The little sister�s rape didn�t really read as plot.
Brad�s character harms the plot because he�s a monster like Jason and Michael Myers are monster, he�s not going to give you much plot. The characters around him have to be dumb down just so he can compete.

I liked how the watch was brought up in the beginning like as if it was nothing, but later became valuable in the plot as evidence, but what didn�t work for me is that, I mean think about the police called to the scene of the crime are the two boys still there pointing fingers at another? If so Alex could easily point out the watch, making his story more believable than Brads. Or, the investigating officer would find the watch clutched in Laura�s hand or around her, and I think a cheerleader watch is little different than star football player. And if non of this happens someone please explain to me what they think did during that transition.

An idea out of the air would be that Brad buys a female watch that he plans to give to Jenne, he pockets it. Then the rape of Laura happens where he loses the watch, now any detective would think it was originally Laura�s, so would Alex, but the little sister could spot the watch in evidence and know that Brad did do it because she helped him pick out the same watch. You can still have the angle of the watch, but now whether the cops are shown or not it wouldn�t matter because it would be easier for the reader, audience to interrupt what I just explained. The way it is not shines a light on one of the major problems of this story.

BLB

Dreamscale I could never pull quotes. It sucks. Maybe I'm doing it wrong or something.

George, there's a movie i would recommend you to watch Brick.

Quoted from Dreamscale

PS I can't for the life of me pull quotes out of other posts either!!!!! It's driving me mad!!!! AYYYEEE!!!!

Quoted from Busy Little Bee

Dreamscale I could never pull quotes. It sucks. Maybe I'm doing it wrong or something.

If you want to quote an entire post, just hit the quote button in the top right corner of the post you'd like to quote. To quote only a piece, simply delete what you don't want to include, or use this formula.

(quote=person you want to quote) quoted text (/quote)

Replace the () with []

Quoted from Shelton

Like this?????

I think I got it!! Easy...for now, until I forget again!!

Quoted from Dreamscale

Like this?????

No, that's totally wrong. Do it like I did it.

Quoted Text

No, that's totally wrong. Do it like I did it.

Mmm I wonder if it's like this. BTW the bubble icon has never worked for me.

Okay let's see if I can quote people the right way now.

Quoted Text

Eric, we've had this discussion before...al the way down to your music analogy. I hope we don't have to have it again.

I can't believe you remembered. I totally forget about it.

Quoted Text

We're really not disagreeing on anything other than the extent of how we feel and what is a bigger cause of this scripts problems.

True, I guess I am kind of stumped why so many people focus on content over form ALL THE TIME. I need to finish one of my scripts and post it up here.

Quoted Text

Are you saying that you think this script is a comedy? Do you think it's meant to be taken as light hearted? C'mon, look at the subject matter.

No I didn't think it was intended to be a comedy but you need to see pass the obvious. My point is art is subjective and so is reality. Anyways I am not going to convince you on it so let's leave it at that.

Quoted Text

I don't think we need to be able to write, compose, or actually make music like Mozart to be able to write, compose, or make music. There always will be lots of "great" music that is of a very simple nature, and that's the same with scripts and movies. No one needs to write the next "Godfather" to be able to write an entertaining or commercially successful script or movie, right? Good scripts come in the form of rehashed story/plot/structure all the time,a dn they can still be good flicks.

Dreamscale, you and I will part on this issue too because IMHO mediocrity isn't something writers should want to aspire too, but you are right it's a personal choice on how hard a writer will work. BTW show me one script that was rehashed from another script that was any good.

Quoted Text

Glad we are square on the final issue though![quote] me too.

[quote]PS I can't for the life of me pull quotes out of other posts either!!!!! It's driving me mad!!!! AYYYEEE!!!!

I think I am getting the hang of it now.

I think the structure was quite solid, and the antag/protag relationship was very clear.  Even the story itself was there.  I think the real problems here were the characters and how unrealistically they fit into the story.

I think George needs to decides what audience he wants to write for.  Some of the themes like drug use won't fly with the TV movie crowd (at least not the way it is portrayed).  And theatrically, these wholesome kids that do bad things won't fly.

And I think I just hit upon the problem I have with these characters.  None of them really have much depth or growth.  And while that could work in a comedy, I think it doesn't work in a drama.

Michael,

did you see my previous post?

It has a quote from George and his intentions for this film. :-)

And congrats on the third place!
I can't seem to get any traction over there... :-/ haha

Shelton, what did I do wrong, or are you kidding? I thought I did exactly what you and Bert said.

Hmmm, now I'm confused...again...

He's joking Jeff! ;-)

Thank you Pia...I feel better now...a little, at least.

Are we moving on here or are we still waiting for more feedback on plot/story/structure?

I think we should wait until tomorrow morning at least before moving on... just in case someone else has something to add. :-)

I think a good solution might be as I said before to change the world and thus change the characters.

If these characters belong to some kind of special society within the greater society, then maybe they don't use cell phones because their group doesn't believe in using them. Maybe this society is good on the surface. Like "Church of the Greatest People on Earth Who Never Ever Sin" type group, but inside the commune, are the dirty little secrets.

Just a suggestion for a way to get out of the same school bully mode with the bad kid being bad for no apparent reason.

Sandra

I don't know. Cell phones and texting play a major factor with any kind of teens. Jenna, Kelsey, Laura and Brad would definitely be the type that would always be talking on the fone. You could say it's "refreshing" that these characters seem pretty unimpressed with cell phone technology. However, that being said I do like this idea a lot:

Quoted from MBCgirl

The key to changing this is to make it real....maybe add a cell phone call from Laura to Alex to tell him she's waiting at the park bench, so the time of the call is used to help clear him...and to prove his innocence when he answers and says he is on his way...

Quoted from Grandma Bear

did you see my previous post?

It has a quote from George and his intentions for this film. :-)

And congrats on the third place!
I can't seem to get any traction over there... :-/ haha

I saw that post. I didn't quite mean it that way - what I meant was I saw mixed intentions in the script.

I can't believe I made it onto that list as third place. It's difficult to get there. Now I'm going to get a skull as a prize and they aren't ever going to be able to send that to Australia. Want a skull Pia?

3rd place in what? Do tell...

PS I love skulls...

Quoted from mcornetto

Want a skull Pia?

Of course!!!
It would go perfectly with the rest of my collection... ;-)

I lived on an island for 26 years and I raised my kids there...I know small towns. :)  In rural areas things do tend to move slowly...but kids are kids...especially in small towns they would want and use cell phones and have a cool car...they aren't exempt from any of that...

I believe Pia mentioned that it would be a big deal if someone was raped and in a comma...and I agree...it would be in the local paper...it would make it to the Seattle Times and every kid on the island would be aware of it because they don't have much else to do :)

The believabilty is so "key" to a story of this nature...and I think it is missing the mark...it's like the story is there, but all the details to tell the story right are missing.

George...I would be happy to help on a rewrite as well :)

Okay, I think most of the participants have responded... let me know if I'm wrong.

Let's move on to
Characterization/arc/journey

:-)

I am a bit removed from the script now so I can't remember what the characters were like but here it goes...

I didn't have issues with the characterization of the characters. I think George did a good job distinguising each character in their own unit. Some of their decisions that they made, were unrealistic. I think that word has been overused but I can't think of another.

Laura

I think I mentioned before I thought it was strange that the begining of the story Laura stood watching some guy getting his butt kicked.

It was a unrealistic that she managed to hold on to the watch after she got knocked out.

You never explained how a cheerleader like her would like a geek like Alex in the first place. You did mention as a matter to the fact she knew him from the past. Perhaps insert a flashback to explain the backstory between these two characters.

Also I felt you could have developed the relationship between Laura and Alex alot more. Laura by and large remains somewhat of an enigma.

Alex

He was the protagonist to be but came across as a secondary character to all the rest. The relationship between the protagonist and the antagonist drives the story. If one is weak, it is hard for the audience to care about what is going on with the rest.

Alex's character was okay. He wasn't a likable progatonist for me because of his selfish and naive nature which is strange for some one you proclaim to be brilliant.

He started off as a push over and through trials and tribulations he learns how to push back and send a hellish boy to hell.

Okay that works as an arch but IMO I think he wasn't push nearly enough. This script lacks tension because of the characters shallow personalities. And as one person here put it, the story was trying to be something for everyone.

Brad

He is a cliche bad boy, nothing remotely interesting about him. I can tell you hated this character while creating him because you gave him nothing of depth. He was what he was, and it is for this reason why the protagonist wasn't pushed hard enough.

The "greaterness" of the protagonist is determined by the greatness of the antagonist.

Brad was a dumb, selfish, and naive, badguy. Killing him off at the end was really an insult to the audience because he never suffered for his crimes. It was a cop out.

A good writer loves all of his characters, especially the bad ones. As an audience member I want to love to hate the antagonist, I don't want to hate him period.

The Joker in the Dark Knight was one of the greatest written bad guys of all time. I was mesmorized by his dark side because I connected with him on some dark level.

I could not connect with Brad at all and wished he got hit by a bus as soon as he appeared on screen.

In story there is a prinicple called the "negation of the negation". Which means that: a double negative.

ie.  Love              apathy         Hate            Self hate or hate masquerading as love
      Postive           contrary       contridictory      Negation of the Negation


A strong antagonistic force is usually a double negative not just a negative to the positve.


Another principle of story is the stronger the forces of antagonism the stronger the forces of protagonism. If the bad guy is shallow then so will the protagonist be.

Story

Your inciting incident occures on page 30 on a 78 page script which is kind of weird because if you were to modify it to feature length which is normally 120 pages, then the first major turning point of the story hits around page 50 wihch is usually the domain of the second act.
Hence you reached Act 2 on page 50 which is aproximately page 85 on 120 page script, then finally hit the second turning point which is Kelse coming to Alex to confess her secret which progresses us to Act 2. Your rush through Act 2 and virtually skip act 3.

You need a minimum of three reversals to complete a story and you only have two.

Eric,

thanks for your great post. Pretty well thought out, especially since you are now removed from the story. All points you made, made sense to me too and I agree with them.

In addition I'd like to add...

As mentioned earlier by several people, Alex is introduced as a nerd who is brilliant, but also smokes and deals pot and drinks vodka. This combination doesn't work for me at all. That was my main problem with him. Him videotaping out of his window seemed too much like American Beauty.

Brad was an all around unpleasant guy. I was somewhat intrigued by the mirror image talking back. Is he schizophrenic or something? Even if he was, him shooting himself still doesn't work. It doesn't fit the character we have got to know up until then.

Laura seemed okay, but like Eric mentioned, what does she see in Alex? My biggest problem with her though is the fact that she was raped and beaten into a coma, yet as soon as she's back home, she kisses Alex and seems to want to have a relationship with him. I don't think so! Something traumatic like that would take a looong time to get over IMHO.

I guess Kelsey is okay, don't really have a problem with her other than I think it would work better if she was younger. Perhaps 14 or so.

Jenna seemed really dense to me. I understand Brad is supposed to be charming to the point where all girls fall for him. Problem is, he doesn't come across like that and Jenna just seems really dense for not seeing him for what he is. Apparently everyone knows or has at least heard all the rumors about Brad. I didn't believe that she would close her eyes to that issue.

Those were some of my thoughts on the characters (plus what eric said).

Eric, I feel compelled to respond to part of your post yesterday...sorry, I just can't help myself.

Quoted from eric11

Eric, I never said anything about aspiring to "mediocrity".  I'm a perfectionist at heart in everything I do and even think.  That's probably why many in here think of me as a "harsh" or tough reviewer.  There's not a single script or movie that is "perfect".  Even my favorite movies of all time have scenes that didn't need to be there, characters that weren't as developed as they could have been, or just things that could have been done better.  It's the way it is, and there's just no getting around it.

In response to your question of showing you a script or movie that is rehashed from something else and still being "good", I guess we would need to come to an agreement of what "good" means.  For example, there've obvioulsy been literally thousands of movies that are semi-clones of "classics" like Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Friday the 13th, Halloween, Scream, Alien, etc.  I'll completely agree that the vast majority of these movies are downright terrible, and purely "ripoffs", but there are numerous examples of such movies that not only did well at the box office, garnered critical praise, and were enjoyable, "good" movies.

I have a feeling that you're not going to agree with this, but for me, it's common knowledge.

Quoted Text

Eric, I feel compelled to respond to part of your post yesterday...sorry, I just can't help myself.

No worries I don't mind.

Quoted Text

I must have got confused when you said, not all music needs to sound like Mozart. You are right, but my analogy was in respect to the ideal that succeeding in your craft you must master it like anything else in life. That's what I meant...

Being harsh is what sensitive people say about learning the truth. How can one sugar coat truth? So be as "harsh" as you can be as long as you are justified. I would appreciate it all the more when you review my scripts, because I disregard praise. It teaches me nothing.

Quoted Text

There's not a single script or movie that is "perfect". Even my favorite movies of all time have scenes that didn't need to be there, characters that weren't as developed as they could have been, or just things that could have been done better. It's the way it is, and there's just no getting around it.

I know, perfection is an ending point, not a starting point. Writers will strive to be as good as they can be and that's what matters. I have meet screenwriters that tried to convience me that it was okay to be lazy, or mediocre.

Quoted Text

In response to your question of showing you a script or movie that is rehashed from something else and still being "good", I guess we would need to come to an agreement of what "good" means. For example, there've obvioulsy been literally thousands of movies that are semi-clones of "classics" like Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Friday the 13th, Halloween, Scream, Alien, etc. I'll completely agree that the vast majority of these movies are downright terrible, and purely "ripoffs", but there are numerous examples of such movies that not only did well at the box office, garnered critical praise, and were enjoyable, "good" movies.

Okay I see what you mean. I will get out a better response in a bit, but I need to leave work now? : )

Not a lot of comments today... :-/

Where are you guys?

I'm just not sure what to say any longer on this one, as everything out of my mouth is very negative. I just don't see any hope for this script at all, and I really don't want to sound so mean and harsh.

The characters are all cardboard cutouts of cliched characters that we've all seen a thousand times before.

Their arc is really non-existant, unless you say that Alex "grew up" by doing what he did, but since what he did is so completely ludicrous, I realy don't think it counts.

As for their journey? Hmmm, I don't think they went on any journeys that really mattered.

I'll respond to others posts, but I'm going to try really hard to bite my tongue and not continue to throw this under teh old proverbial bus.

Quoted from Dreamscale

Not even six or seven times, as you have? ;)

I wanted to touch a little bit on the believability of the "nerd" characterization. When looking at in terms of what you would expect from a typical nerd (glasses, pocket protector, just plain dweeby) you're right, it doesn't fit. But, if you look at it from the perspective that Alex is basically just an outsider, I think it works out. Not all nerds fit into a certain mold. Some people get labeled as such for totally random reasons.

Yeah Shelton, I know.  I just can't seem to help myself...

I hear what you're saying about Alex.  He's nothing of a nerd, really.  But if he is indeed this big pot seller/smoker/drinker guy, he's actually a "burnout" or "stoner".  And if that's what he is, and he's selling to various kids at school, he actually wouldn't be considered an outsider, I don't think.  If nothing else, he'd have people in his corner who are "like him", and rely on his services.

The fact that he's a good, smart student, yet a smoker and drinker doesn't really fly either.  Not that it's impossible or never happened, but you don't see this type of person very often, and is again, another one of those unrealistic things.

That touches on one of the problems I had with Alex...he doesn't come across to me as a Nerd. Nerds usually have a technical side and Alex didn't come across as having one. As far as the smart guy who smokes pot - I knew a bunch of them in school and that wasn't surprising at all to me. Alex is pretty shallow actually and he needs much more depth to be a dramatic character (at least IMO). He has to pull us along on his journey and he isn't strong enough to do it.

The stoners I'm familiar with from High School, were all literally stoners, through and through...but we're going way back in years in what I'm talking about.  As far as I know nowadays, pot smoking...in High School, at least is a completely different thing, as most of the parents (and teachers) know about this stuff.  Back in the 70's and early 80's, it was a different animal.  I know numerous High School kids now and pot isn't even something that is that popular at this age.

Sure, a kid can be a stoner and still be smart, but the way Alex is portrayed...as drinking vodka from a bottle and burning doobs in his room, I just don't see it at all.  He's obviously from a family with money, based on that fact that he has a nice video cam, his own room, etc.  Actually, every character appears to be from money in some form, and the entire town or whatever it's supposed to be, seems nice and upscale.

When a kid's stoned and drunk on a normal basis, people nowadays are going to be fully aware of it.  If we're talking about the inner city or the like, different story completely, but in this setting, I don't buy any of it.

Quoted from Grandma Bear

Not a lot of comments today... :-/

Where are you guys?

I think it's time for George to step in. I usually never dwell on a script past one day, and it is already been a week or so.

I think people are losing interest now.

Okay, I hear you.

Before we invite George though...

Can we touch real quick on dialogue and marketability first?

And all of you, please let me know, if you think inviting George earlier than planned is a good idea. :-)

Yeah..I don't know if "losing interest" is quite right...maybe lost interest immediately

I think it's kind of like beating a dead horse. Every angle we turn to, pretty much leads back to the same situation...this isn't what we were hoping for, and I seriously don't see how we can "help" here. There's just WAY, WAY too much that's wrong, that doesn't work, that doesn't make sense, that's unrealistic, etc.

In all honesty and sincerity, to bring this thing to where it needs to be, or should be, we're talking about a complete overhaul, and I'm talking about junking the entire thing and starting over from scratch.

I know how that sounds, and I actually feel quite badly about what I've said and how I've said it, but that's the truth of the situation here.

Comments back appreciated...

Dialogue - Completely and totally unrealistic, unbelievable, and poorly done.

Marketability - If the year was 1973 or so, and this went through a major rewrite/overhaul, maybe it could work as an "After School Special" or an early Saturday morning show, but in terms of the big screen or DTV? No way...nothing here at all that would interest anyone, of any age.

Jeff,
tell us how you really feel!! ;D

Just kidding of course. All input is valuable. I probably agree with most of your thoughts and I'm sure George is taking notes.

I think this could be made better though... maybe not feature on the big screen better, but if he still plans on shooting this, hopefully our comments have been helpful in making this the best it can be. :-)

If he tones down the drug use, I think it is marketable as a TV movie for young adults.

I don't think it is marketable for adults or theatrical releases.

I didn't have much problem with the dialogue.

A lot has already been said about character. Jenna it seemed was smart enough to not want to swear for no good reason, but too stupid to see Brad for what he really was.

The question is: Why? Most people get "feelings" about others.

I guess in this sense, we begin to reveal the truth here is that the story was built trying to make conflict, but the motivations behind everything are really weak.

Eric mentioned that killing off Brad at the end was an insult to the audience. I have to agree here and therein again lies the problem. We don't really "know" what the problem was with Brad. If he was an evil kid from the get-go, like when he was in kindergarten and we knew that, then maybe even then we can go along with it.

Perhaps then, the problem is in the set up? Set up is supposed to everything, so maybe that's where it's flawed and it's causing problems throughout the script. Right off the bat, Alex is getting a beating, and then there's some dialogue that reveals Alex and Brad's strange relationship. I guess it's never really explained.

I mentioned this before, but I think that it's their relationship that needs to be explored more and this would indeed be a different story.

I'm going to point out an instance where Brad's character is not being properly revealed through dialogue.

On page 17 Brad says, "It's endearing, anyway."

That stuck out for me and I was thinking that he wouldn't say that. I don't think Brad knows the meaning of the word.

I notice that there's been some weight to Colin's character in this with his cutting that he does. Look at this:

He walks to his desk and sits. He pulls a photo album out of
the desk, and looks at it. At this point, the pictures are
for his eyes only. He lays the book open on the desk, its
contents remaining a secret.

He reaches into another drawer and takes out a pocketknife.
He uses a small sharpening stone to give the knife a nice
razor edge. He retrieves a towel from under the desk and lays
it on his lap.

He raises a sleeve, revealing several scars and cuts on his
arm. He makes a small incision across his arm drawing blood.
He winces from the pain, but his face reveals pleasure behind
it.

Part of our discernments include the ability to know what needs to bear weight and when. I think this script is too short for a secondary character to get this much time. It seems to me that if anyone should be getting this much page space, it should either be Alex or Brad.

I did enjoy though and appreciate the attempt here and it's intriguing. I just think that it doesn't work right now due to the circumstances of the script as a whole.

As far as the girls characters went, I found them unbelievable. As I mentioned, Jenna appears blind. Her sister I thought should be a lot younger.

Much of the dialogue seemed flat to me.

Laura laughs and looks at her watch.

"Hey, I gotta go. Jenna wants the squad to practice before the game tonight."

"Sure, no problem."

The way it felt to me sometimes was that there was no intensity.

If we had some kind of emotion injected into it, it would help a lot.

Maybe,

Laura hiccups after having a few too many swigs of Alex's vodka.

"Hey, you wanna see an old picture of Brad that'll make you laugh your socks off?"

Laura looks down. Alex is sockless.

"Well, the next thing would be pants. Let's go with that."

**What I'm getting at here is trying to make each bit of dialogue or anything at all bear weight. In this case, if Laura is about to show Alex an old "funny" picture of Brad, it keeps us interested because we want to see it. Secondly, we see them both sharing a joke on Brad. Might we feel a hint of sympathy for him then? I don't know.

I'll leave it be at that for now.

Sandra

And that Colin cutting scene is another example. It's sort of seems arbitrary. Kind of implying Colin is an Emo when his actual behaviour doesn't indicate that at all. I think this kind of discrepancy can be found throughout the script. I think it's an attempt to bring some kind of depth to the characters by putting in contradictory behaviours. But it doesn't work because I don't believe these kids would behave like that. Either the setting needs to change or the kids behavior needs to be brought in line with the actions. Or maybe it is the dialogue that's throwing me off. Maybe it needs to be a bit more hip.

Colin's behavior is very serious too... but somehow I didn't even remember it until you mentioned it. I think that shows somethings wrong regarding his character.

I have asked George to chime in and I'm sure he will.

I want to thank all of you who participated and also want you to know that your participation greatly increases your chances of having a script discussed here.

If it seems harsh.... just know that it's all intended to be in the author's best interest and it's also free. :-)

I think we should keep going with this and wait for George to step in.

Quoted from Dreamscale

Sure, a kid can be a stoner and still be smart, but the way Alex is portrayed...as drinking vodka from a bottle and burning doobs in his room, I just don't see it at all.

I don't know about this. Weed is different from partying with alcohol. You smoke all the time, you don't feel like doing anything but smoking-- and most kids like that in HS don't do to good (I'm not speaking for everyone, though)-- however, I know a lot of people who balanced out their grades and drinking just fine.

There are many things wrong with the Characters and I think there have been some really good points made in these last posts that would hopefully help George with a re-write as he mentioned he is not against doing.

I understand why George added smoking pot to the mix for Alex...it was used to threaten Alex and place the blame on him...but it's almost like it was an addition in order to make it work...it just doesn't ring true to his character.  He seems to analyze Brad's behavior...and even understand him...until Brad's evil side takes over.

There are portions of the characters that seem present day...and then at other times we're back in 1973.  It's a time warp for sure...

I didn't like Brad taking his life...because I trully don't think he would do that based on all his other actions up to this point.  He's way too stuck on himself...I think he would more likely be in denial and still be trying to claim how cool he is while the cops take him away.

There are a lot of missing elements needed to bring the pieces of this puzzle together...on a positive note...it was short and has a lot more time available in order to connect the dots and write a more compelling story.

Or...as Dreamscale says...or not ;)

Let's imagine this script were to be overhauled completely. What would you do with it?

Since Alex is supposed to be a "good guy", maybe Brad might try and bring him over to the dark side and partially succeed.

How might he do this? How about with some bate? Laura. With dialogue like:

"Come on man! She doesn't even know you exist? Hang out with us. Be a player. A real piece like Laura doesn't want a pretty boy, she wants a bad boy."

He roughs Alex up playfully. Throws a jab, knocks him back some, rumples his shirt, picks up a wad of dirt and smears his face and shirt so that Alex looks like he's been in a brawl.

"How's it feel to beat up Brad Rocker eh? Feel good? I'll go with it, but you gotta help me out with my homework. Deal?"

I think with something like this, there's some real motive playing out. I think that if a guy is truly in love with a girl, (which Alex is capable of and Brad is not) he is willing to do almost anything.

If we can imagine that Brad begins leading Alex down the wrong path, then we might have a character arc happening and the pot smoking might make sense. We'd see his decline. And this is interesting because this really does happen in life. Good people make the wrong choices and it's often because they want to be accepted or in Alex's case, he thinks that wearing the rough tough mask will work to get Laura to notice him.

Maybe it works opposite, and this could be the first obstacle. Laura rejects Alex, and Alex says,

"Come on baby! I know a woman like you loves a little rough play."

And maybe she does. Maybe you draw up a scene where she feels it, but it's very veiled. The tension is there and she allows something, but then she changes her mind. This too I could see happening. But that's me. I don't know what you might think on this.

Sandra

I too think Brad went down a little too easy.

I like Morgan's idea of having him act cool as ice when the cops haul him off. He's definitely that type -- rob a church and deny it til the end, even though he has a wreath hanging half-way out his ass.

Well, first, I want to thank those of you who read it, whether you liked it or not. also, negative or not, the feedback told me quite a bit about the script. It's actually a bit strange. There were those who really liked it, those who really hated it, and those who liked it but felt it needed some work. With few exceptions, it appeared to be very easy to read despite its shortcomings.

So it appears to be a well-written, poorly written script...if that's possible.

Some comments I made on Monday as I was reading the comments left:

I will say this has been useful primarily because you guys overthink a lot of stuff. There are actually some really simple answers to a lot of issues posed (on Monday). This doesn't mean I'm not taking this seriously, but I thought by issuing the logic behind some of the stuff you'd commented on, it would at least show I didn't just churn out some garbage without any thought behind it.

Why did I write this? Someone asked me to. We discussed the story and characters and I wrote the script. I do have a fondness for it despite its weaknesses and feel it has potential. It was actually written characters first. He said there was this and this and this for a basic plot and characters. I took those concepts and figured out what every character would do throughout the storyline and just weaved them all together. It has been several years since I wrote it, and it clearly needs some work.

Why no adults? Because the guy I wrote it for was fourteen at the time and so his cast was going to be around that age as well. Originally, Jenna was 16, and Kelsey was 12 meaning Jenna was technically still not old enough for Basic Instinct, but Kelsey was a bit young for it as well. I increased the ages of several of the characters, but rewrote several things to accomodate that here and there as well. So there were no adults because the cast wasn't going to have any adults. Not the first time it's come up.

What's with the Basic Instinct conversation? Does Kelsey really take the whole R-rated thing seriously? Of course not. She knows full well that Jenna is only feeding her that garbage to get her out of the room, and before Jenna was drawn away, she was willing to oblige, but didn't appreciate the talking-down routine. Jenna does have a bit of a diva attitude, and while Kelsey does idolize her, the whole R-rated thing didn't sit well with her.

So what about Emma asking for Laura's place at the top of the pyramid?
Emma's bit with the top of the pyramid is intended to convey the shallow nature of some people in the face of tragedy. You'll not that entire conversation was rather light despite the fact that she's conveying some rather serious information to her team captain, indicating Emma is playing the cheerleader stereotype of only considering herself and trying to get ahead in the wake of another's misfortune. It's also supposed to be funny. You'll note that Jenna didn't respond, likely because the gravity hit her a bit harder.

Brad friends with Alex? No. Not even secretly. Brad is a drug addict, and Alex is a convenient supplier. They were friends once, but that relationship is purely business. Brad became a jock, and dumped his rather bright friend.

How did Alex know where Brad was going to be? And how did he know he'd catch Brad "in the act"? That's easy. Brad told him. Before Kelsey dropped by, Alex had seen Brad in the park, and Brad bragged that he was going to be spending an evening with some girl, and quite fully explained his frustration with Jenna's not putting out. Now, kids don't have a wealth of places to have a quickie without parental influence, but given Alex's and Brad's history of knowing each other, Alex would have an idea as to where to find Brad. Apparently, since Brad was at home, he lacks some imagination and his parents go out occasionally. Hey, if my kids were in their late teens, I'd go out occasionally too.

What's with the talking mirror? Think about the Gollum/Smeagol exchanges. The mirror isn't talking back. Brad is talking to himself and he's responding to himself. It's a way to externalize an internal dialogue with a character that can't express his thoughts to anyone else. It's not all too uncommon, if you think about it. How many times does someone gointo the bathroom and to try and build some confidence, tell themselves that it's all right or "you can do this." Granted, most people don't respond to themselves, but Brad's got an ego, and likes to hear and see himself, so he's probably his own best friend too. Maybe I can expand upon that.

Why is there a Kelsey flashback if we know what happens? That is there for one reason. To show Brad talking to himself in the bathroom. It used to be in chronological order with everything else, but I felt it delayed the story too long so I moved it. I'm all for removing it, but then Brad would start talking to himself when he's in trouble near the end and it would seem like an afterthought. It seems like an afterthought now, but I need that mirror dialogue for Brad to work himself to his ending.

I ran out of room...

Part 2

Why does Brad give up so easily at the end? You have a good point. At that point in the story while we, as the audience, understand that Brad has irrevocably lost, Brad doesn't know that yet. He learns very rapidly that Jenna, who does have influence, knows the truth about not only Laura, but also that he had his way with her sister, something that won't sit well with anyone at school, regardless of any legal rammifications. He would understand that his reputation is destroyed since it would appear that some of his conquests were forced as opposed to consentual. He'd be a pariah in the locker room, no one would touch him again, and he'll have a mark on his record for the rape of at least Laura and probably Kelsey as well since it's likely the Portman family would press charges. After Brad's final line, there is an undetermined period of time where he simply sits on the ground watching them before he leaves. That's a lot of time to sort out what just happened, and come to the conclusions I've mentioned. It's very clear his reign is over, and he would know it. He does have a rather long "monologue" in the next scene where he works out what just happened to kind of replace the interior dialogue he would have endured sitting on the floor in the previous scene. That is truly the climax of his story and where he works out with finality what to do. Would he lash out at Colin and Alex? He could, but why would he? What purpose would it serve? I'm open to suggestions here, and perhaps these are far too many Cliff Notes and something is left out of the script detailing all this.

Why does you dialogue suck? Because dialogue is my weakest skill. In fact, for the feature I just wrapped, I gave the actors carte blanche on the dialogue telling them to say the lines however their character woud say them as long as the gist of the lines was conveyed. they did really good, and in many cases came up with better stuff than I'd written down.

Oh, and Dreamscale, negative feedback is more than welcome, but one of the rules is to back up any negative feedback with a reason why. To say "it all sucks" isn't constructive. There's no way it can all suck. But to the parts that do suck, please don't hold back. I want to know where they are.

Past Monday, it got a lot more in depth, and I was liking the comments coming out. I thought it was interesting that most of the realism complaint began with the background stuff as opposed to the plot itself. It seemed to take a little while before the scalpels really came out.

So I can see quite a few issues, and when I was thinking about it last night, I can see many of the illogical dualities you all were bringing up. I know who these characters are, but I was definitely writing them out of their own contexts at times, probably to please the other guy credited on the cover page. Well, as he's given me the go ahead to take it on as my own, I wanted to make sure it worked well, and I knew I was seeing the story I thought was pretty good, but likely overlooking some issues because I could explain them all away.

Here's one issue I have though, and I'm not sure how to correct it. One comment came out about the length of time it took to reach the first major turning point, that being Brad's attack on Laura. I took all that time to set up characters and relationships and I noticed how long it took before the Laura incident occurred. Moving the flashback managed to invalidate it, but as I mentioned above, I also needed Brad to talk to himself before the climax occurred. So without half the flick occurring in flashback (which might be necessary to move the story fast enough), I'm not sure it can come much sooner and still round out Laura's character before she's out.

So, in a nutshell, I need the character to be true to themselves, I need the off screen action of the investigation, I need more depth to each of them (yes, there are secondary characters, but I want them as fully fleshed as everyone else), and I need to ensure that each element is current right down to gadgets, technology, and current events. I do feel that the framework is fine, but we're talking more like Dreamscale's Charlie Brown analogy in that my framework is about where I'm starting.

What I'll probably do in the end is summarize the current script scene by scene, analyze the characters based on the feedback I've gotten, and then figure out how their days would really go, and how that would weave into the basic plot. I'm giving myself plenty of time to rewrite this one as I'm not shooting it next. It's not a winter story and I need outdoor shots.

I'm still open to the discussion, and feel free to refute any of my logic. I guess once this horse is beaten, we should figure out who the next victim is.

Again, you don�t have to actual show any adults for your characters to act there are adults around.

George what happens when the cops show up to the scene of the crime? Since all three boys end up in jail right away, the subtext suggest they were arrested at the scene of the crime, so what happened? Why didn't Alex point out the watch, than? Does the investigating cop get ahold of the watch? Does he ask around town? You don't have to show any of this on screen but it show through when you show the teens talking. Like the girl asking about the pyramid could say something about a detective asking her questions about Brad and Alex.

Battle scene: After, Alex catches Brad in the act of cheating on Jenna. It�s a foot race back to Jenna�s house where Alex, Colin and Kelsey confront Jenna with the evidence. Meanwhile Brad knows he�s in deep now. Beating on the door, wanting in, he tries to sweet talk a distraught Jenna to opening the door. When it doesn�t work he pretends to leave only to break in and terrorize the others. His motive they have evidence of his behavior and more damaging Kelsey�s testimony. The quick cat and mouse around the house, ending with Brad beating on Alex in the middle of the street when we hear cop SIRENS, doors OPENED and SLAMED shut, and someone yelling freeze. No adults have to be put on screen, yet the point is conveyed. Or you can have Brad slipping on a banana peel and knocking his head against something and dying. I don�t think he�d kill himself anymore than a Jason Vorhees would.

Afterwards cut to Alex at the hospital with Laura who explains after she woke up she told the cops her who done it and that it sounds like they got there just and time. And Alex saying, �no, if they would�ve been there on time this would of never happened to you.�

I understand the balance of screen time and I think it works pretty well. I personally see Kelsey as the real protagonist. And this is a well written script in that in read quickly and I got the images in my hand, but the story wasn�t up to par.

The motive for Colin to help Brad, I felt was weak. And makes Colin seem like a weaker character where otherwise he seemed OK. Though he started with his not believing Alex over Brad. It�s weird because Colin questions Brad about the tape and why he should help and destroys any real motive for him to help, but yet does help! It�s like wait what. Now, I think about it, I�m think why would Colin care, unless he was on the football team too and Brad made promises sort of like a freshman v. senior initiation/hazing typed deal.

BLB

Yeah, with the adult thing, I had them off screen, but you're right in that they need to be omnipresent in the characters' LIVES, whether they appear on screen or not. Even the most non-present parent is still "there" even when they're not.

I like the climax you suggest. The Colin interaction was another act of desperation on my part in trying to get him to Alex's house to talk to Kelsey. I couldn't think of any other reason for him to be there. What would make more sense is while Brad is convincing Jenna of his innocence, Alex could take Kelsey to Colin's to give her a chance to explain before they see Jenna. The trouble is that part would slow up the end plot. I just need to resolve that plot before hitting the ending, probably by Alex taking her to Colin's before taping Brad so the chase remains one. You're right in that Colin wouldn't care which is why that whole reasoning is so weak.

Another thought that came to me this morning is that I did pull a cardinal no-no in that I changed the characters to service the plot. When I considered the reasons for why the characters do certain things, it boils down to the plot more than themselves. It's along the lines of what I was saying earlier about the characters being true to themselves. Why is Alex doing and selling drugs? Well, look at the myriad of plot points that serves. He knows Brad as a customer; Brad can use it against him to keep him from talking about Laura; Alex plants the stuff at Brad's house later (well, that only gets him off the hook, and won't hurt Brad worse than the rape...).

I think I know how to correct Brad's character. He needs to be more like Bond in that he's the suave sophisticated bastard type that gets what he wants with an irresistible and shattering confidence. I think Alex will drop the whole drugs and alcohol thing since there are better ways for his plot to work. Jenna will be smarter, but while she will definitely suspect (and possibly know of) Brad's ways, he's so damn smooth with her that she can't stay mad at him. I think Kelsey is mostly ok. I'll shift her a tad younger, but most of her actions work (correct me if I'm wrong). Laura is barely there, but she does need to be a bit more of the cheerleader "type" towards Alex. Maybe she's the one that needs to be tutored instead of Colin (because she's nearly failing math and is on the verge of ineligibility for cheerleading -- hey, some people don't get math), where Colin would serve as a character parallel to Alex in a different type scene that would serve to build their characters better.

Another thing that probably needs to happen to move the story quicker and yet round everyone out is to get to the rape scene as fast as possible, which means most of Laura's character will be built in everyone's memories, and Kelsey's incident will likely occur either right at beginning or before the story begins, so she'd be stand-offish from Brad right from the get go.

Am I on any semblance of the right track?

Hey George,

I get the Gollum/Smeagol thing. I just don't like it. I didn't like it then, and I like it even less here. It just comes off as cheap and gimmicky to me. Too much tell, not enough show.

Also, i had a major problem with the convenience of Laura being beaten into a coma and unable to provide any answers as to what happened to her. What if they all ended up at a house party together after the football game. Laura gets a little f'ed up, passes out in an empty bedroom. Alex walks in on Brad raping her. COlin walks in on Alex walking in. They report it to the police, but the police don't believe Laura because she was drunk, and because Brad is a big sports star with a rich father.

It mihgt be more of an overhaul than you want to make, but i think makes it a bit more realistic.

That's not as much of an overhaul as you might think. It can fit within the storyline remarkably well, and really sets my gears turning... That's also the sort of thing that the cops would just write off as teenage stupidity. Another possibility would be if she were still conscious but it plays out in the backyard. She could remember the whole thing, but again, it being "dumb teenagers", the cops would write it off since "they shouldn't have been drinking anyway." They would focus more on where they got the alcohol than this rather horrific violation.

As for the Brad and himself, yeah, it's tell not show, but it plays out as a straight dialogue scene as well.

"She could remember the whole thing, but again, it being "dumb teenagers", the cops would write it off since "they shouldn't have been drinking anyway." They would focus more on where they got the alcohol than this rather horrific violation."

TBH I'm not sold on the idea that the Cops would be more interested in under age drinking than a rape!

At least, I rather hope they wouldn't...

Well, it goes back to Seamus' original thought that she was f'd up at the time. She can say he raped her, but she was also drunk along with Brad having the rich father and being the sports star that makes the town look good. If it happened to the mayor's daughter, he would be hanged, but who is Laura? She a kid probably struggling with classwork to stay on the cheerleading squad. She's not even the captain. His word against hers and he said she was consentual at the time. Even if they launched an investigation, the testimony is a he said-she said situation from underage teens who'd been drinking, one of whom has more clout than the other. The unfortunate reality is that it's an open and shut case and not in Laura's favor.

If anyone disagrees, I'm interested in holes in that argument.

"Well, it goes back to Seamus' original thought that she was f'd up at the time. She can say he raped her, but she was also drunk along with Brad having the rich father and being the sports star that makes the town look good. If it happened to the mayor's daughter, he would be hanged, but who is Laura? She a kid probably struggling with classwork to stay on the cheerleading squad. She's not even the captain. His word against hers and he said she was consentual at the time. Even if they launched an investigation, the testimony is a he said-she said situation from underage teens who'd been drinking, one of whom has more clout than the other. The unfortunate reality is that it's an open and shut case and not in Laura's favor.

If anyone disagrees, I'm interested in holes in that argument"

Well, that's a slightly different argument. I can see how the Dad can pull some strings with his buddies at the gold club etc So they're not interested for corrupt reasons. Or the Cops simply say that there isn't enough evidence to get a conviction. (Which has the added benefit of introducing a vey strong and important theme IE that a huge number of rapes go unpunished).

I just thought the idea that they would specifically care more about the drinking side of it was going a bit far.

This is true. I was definitely unclear the first around.

I think this angle works much better than the "dark alley" scenario I currently have. My producer hat is saying "ah geez, that could be a lot of extras..." But at the same time, you could have the party be either the entire opening scene or the goal of the first ten minutes (i.e. everyone is getting ready for the party at Jenna's house or something). Then wham! you're in.

I don't know that I would move the party scene up.  I think I would keep Laura getting raped right where it is,  You should build up Laura and Alex's relationship beofre the rape happens.

I think Kelsey getting raped serves as your inciting incident.  We know Brads a bad guy, and we know he needs to be stopped.  Who will he rape next?  Who will finally stop him?

I like your idea of making Alex Laura's tutor.  I think you need to strengthen the "love" triangle between Alex, Brad and Laura prior to the rape.  Alex is definitely attracted to her, but he has trouble believing she would choose him over a jock, even though she is atrracted to him and hates Brad.  Just when Alex starts to beleive that she likes himn, he misinterprets something he sees between Brad and Laura.

After he rapes Kelsey, we know he's going to rape Laura, and we know Alex is going to bring him down for it.  With Laura's help.

It's probable that Kelsey's bit with Brad and Jenna (with some tweaks to her personal character) can proceed nearly unchanged. His newfound suave-ness will be more prominent to avoid the Basic Instinct reference.

If Laura is conscious throughout the ordeal, she would have her own arc of not being believed and probably ostracised from the squad. While her apparent relationship with Alex isn't helping her reputation, she increasing has no one else to turn to. But his misinterpretation would place a bit of a wedge between them making their tutoring sessions (which once she is put "on probation" from the squad, makes them a nearly moot point and she would only go because she does actually need to keep her grade up through her depression) especially tense.

And I've got Alex's genius angle figured out to where he's a bit of a criminal, but fits the geek angle perfectly. Let's just say his version of Windows XP Professional isn't entirely legit...along with his mysterious growing collection of MP3's.

I think you have a lot of pages you could add to this George. One thing that came to mind while reading was that you have pages and pages and pages with just dialogue and nothing else. This script is very short, but on film would probably even shorter.

In regard to next victim...

I appreciate you taking over the SC. It isn't as easy as some might think, but I know you will do a good job and it probably helps being a mod too. I also know you won't fly off the handle when someone makes a comment. ;-)

I do think we can wait a little though since the next writing group thing will start soon and take up everyone's time. Maybe we can do one script for the SC every month or so?

Yeah, the pages and pages of dialogue are there because if the budgetary aspect that I'll need to get more creative with so more "show" can happen as I move forward with other pictures.

We could do it at least every month unless everyone wants to do it sooner. And I don't mind guiding this. It's been tremendously helpful to me, so I want to share the wealth.

Hey George, glad to see you're in here now, commenting on our thoughts.

One thing I'd like to say up front is that as far as I can tell, I never said anything about any portion of your script "sucking".  And I tried to give many examples of what didn't work and why.  After awhile, I pretty much gave up, because I seriously don't think anything about this script actually works.  I used an analogy of someone wanting to fix up a 1976 AMC Pacer, and left it with "Why?"�as in why would one even consider such an undertaking, when the logical choice would be to just go out and buy a new car.

When I originally read this, I took notes as I went along (which I usually do when attempting to provide a detailed review that will help the writer move his script forward).  It got to the point, in the first few pages, that I was having trouble with something (or everything) on literally every single line.  So I decided that wasn't going to happen, and from there just took mental notes, and gave more general feedback.

I truly apologize if I come off as a complete jerk or Asshole, cause that's not my intention at all.  I don't get anything out of putting someone or something down, or insulting anyone.  I really don't.

Bottom line though is that I am just completely flabbergasted at the ineptitude on display here.  And I'm shocked that you, or anyone else in here, think there is some possibility or hope of "fixing" this into a strong script that would warrant salability, or shooting it yourself.  I'm almost (but obviously not quite) speechless.

So, I'd like to ask you a few questions, and see if I gain some enlightenment.

1)  Are you looking at this as an actual movie that people would pay to see?  An actual theatrical release or DTV release?

2)  What rating are you going for?

3)  Who is your intended audience? (age, race, social status, etc.)

4) Is this to be taken as a serious drama, and is it being played as "real"?

Again, George, hopefully there aren't any hard feelings on your part, and I do apologize again if I offended you in any way.

Quoted from Dreamscale

Perhaps this was in the spirit of the discussion, but reading that as a first impression, I was immediately curious as to some detail which you did eventually provide some semblance of. "Not a single thing even remotely worked" kinda tells me that you felt it all sucks.

But no, there are no hard feelings, no offense taken, and no apologies necessary, I promise. I appreciate your honesty, and that you weren't afraid to put those thoughts out there. You probably served to spark that particular discussion which was helpful.

To answer your questions:

1) As I can't afford a theatrical release, I am aiming for DVD at this point. A big point of making it would be for an actual movie that people would potentially pay to see (or at least put a couple hours to rent). I'm also shooting for the experience and credit of doing it, as it should be my third feature by that time. Saleable or not, I want it to be worth watching.

2) I really don't concentrate on ratings. Ratings are issued by the MPAA as a guide for parents and far too much focus is placed on them. I likely wouldn't place it past a PG-13, though.

3) I dunno. Never gave it much thought. As it involves teens, that's the likely audience.

4) I see it as a more serious drama, yes.

OK George, thanks, I feel better, as I seriously felt kinda bad for the tone of my comments.  I�m glad you understand.

I wasn�t the first to throw out negativity�maybe I was the harshest, in terms of actual word choice, but others before me said things like �poor�, �shocked�, �dumbfounded�, etc.  As I say quite often, �I calls �em as I sees �em�, and I�m never going to sugarcoat anything, especially when I have strong feelings about something.  And yeah, to put it bluntly, I did indeed feel �that it all sucks�, but that�s my opinion, and I guess you should take it for exactly that.

1)  As it stands now, as Pia mentioned, it�s incredibly short, and would most likely play out on screen much shorter than its page length would lead to believe. In my mind, it�s barely over an hour long now, and if nothing else, it needs ALOT of padding�I assume you are aware of this.  I can totally appreciate your interest in shooting this or any other script for both the experience and credit�I just wouldn�t suggest using this script, especially if you �want it to be worth watching�, cause the way it comes off now, it�s not worth watching, and again, I mean no disrespect by saying that.

2)  I disagree whole heartedly with your comments about ratings.  Not concentrating or caring about what a movie would be rated is a big mistake. It�s a fine but very hard line between a PG 13 and R rated film, in terms of success and failure (based on ratings alone).  Although it is indeed up to the MPAA to dole out a rating, anyone who goes into the process not knowing what their film will be rated is way behind the 8 ball. It�s pretty simple to figure out what a film will be rated long before the MPAA gets involved.  And I think this is another of the huge problems here with your script.  Based on the fact that you have no swearing, onscreen violence/gore, etc., you�re right about a PG 13 rating, but the themes portrayed within (rape, teen sex, drug use, teen drinking, self mutilation) are all things that aren�t going to go over well with a PG 13 movie.  You�ve also got some references in here that characters are naked and having sex, but then you also say they could be covered up, implying nudity.  In terms of theme and tone, you didn�t supply nearly enough to go for the �R� crowd, but most likely too much for the �PG� crowd.  I sincerely think it needs to be 1 or the other, and once you make that decision, you need to follow it throughout your script.

3)  If it�s for �teens�, again, you need to understand that teens include 13-19 year olds, and their thoughts, likes, dislikes, opinions, etc. differ hugely in that category.  Since your characters are all pretty much 16 and 17, they need to come across as actually being that age�they need to act like it, talk like it, think like it�be it!  No one in your script comes off as a real person in any of these ways, and because of that I don�t see it appealing to teens�or adults.  I think people nowadays are just too �smart�, know too much, seen too much to not �know� that nothing here seems real or believable.

4)  I said something in here about being quite sure that you intended this to be a serious piece and someone else questioned that.  If it is indeed to be taken as a serious drama, then it needs to be semi-realistic, and as it stands now, it�s not.  I�m sorry to continually use the words �nothing� or �everything�, but that�s how I truly feel in saying that �nothing� comes off as real, so nothing can be taken seriously.

I don�t know if it would help clear things up or if you�d even want me to do this, but I could go line by line here with you (on any page you choose) and point out what doesn�t work and why, including dialogue.  I am more than willing to provide any help I can George, but my sincere advice is to scrap this and start over.

That's essentially what I'm going to do. My plan is to summarize the current script, shuffle and rewrite scenes in a detailed treatment sort of format before committing it to a screenplay. I also plan on writing the characters' individual stories separately from the plot to see what they're doing when they're not on screen and make sure they're consistent. I actually do plan to scrap a lot of if not all of the current script, based on the comments and what I've realised through this process. There's way too much for a simple rewrite. I like the basic storyline, and I believe that's what I'm attached to with it. I probably see what it could be as opposed to what it is. I could probably do a better job of writing it now anyway.

I've done this before with something else, and that script (although it's 165 pages) turned out to be one of the best ones I've written. I literally scrapped the original draft entirely keeping only the base scenes and then building around them before I wrote a word of dialogue.

I understand the market reasons for knowing the rating going in and once I've got something finished, I can tell what it would be. And yeah, a lot of the themes presented would be hard for a PG-13 and probably shift it to the R side. I guess the hardest part of that for me is that I've never dealt with the ratings really. When I was under 17, I never cared about R rated movies. And since then, the rating is kind of irrelevant unless I'm reviewing films for my kids.

You should never feel bad for constructive criticism, since some of the best criticism is negative when it comes out. It can't help but be that way. I put this script out there to be shredded, and it was magnificently. For that, I am grateful since it all set me in the direction it needs to go to be that much better.

It's very easy to blind to one's own work, and in this case, I am guilty.

Hello George,

I noticed you made the comment about giving your actors the freedom to twist the dialogue anyway they see fit as long as it fits the gist of the character.

In some ways this is good and very positive for the actor. And it works if you are in the production side of things, but for the writer, it doesn't always work because it sets a different kind of standard.

I guess what it comes down to is that it doesn't matter if we have the means to do the filming ourselves we can work "loosely" off the script. But that does suck for writers that labor hard and sweat blood over every single word.

I think that you said it well when you said you broke the cardinal rule in that you changed the characters to fit the plot. Characters should come first. And everything should play out because of the decisions that they make and that is what the plot is. Not something we twist into shape after the fact.

I think we "can" do that. And maybe make it work if we are very skilled, but I think that the feeling and intention underneath it will suffer.

After reading this whack of comments on this thread, I've come to the conclusion that "something" regarding structure is working, and that's what I feel with my intuition, not my logic because I didn't write down, "Alex and Brad jailed, page #?" I believe strongly, that part of what held interest was leaving us "up in the air" with regard to Kelsey when she's lying on the bed in tears. Here, we wanted to find out how it would play out.

Otherwise though, the other part of the conclusion I've come to is: Character must be the substance of what we write first. The plot must weave seamlessly with the characters.

I think perhaps this script focuses too much on trying to be a story and misses the mark with character, as if it's tacked on afterward.

Maybe that is the trouble. The lack of cell phones didn't bother me. It's easy to write it as being back in time somewhere. If anything, I like that idea and I think kids do too. Didn't we (us old people LOl) grow up watching Happy Days which took place 20 years before our time?

We're in a slice of time somewhere, with characters that seem "typical" whatever that is. Personally, I'd like to get a feel for what they're truly about; not just the way they play out according to the storyline.

If you read Steve Mandolla's Big Fade, you'll see a lot of excellent character work and fabulous dialogue. If you want to shoot something and you're into directing, that's what you might be interested in.

Good job on moving things though I think. It wasn't a strain to read.

Sandra

I hear ya George. I think that's a great idea...especially the part about writing out what each character is doing offscreen, etc. Everyone has a life and it dictates what they can do, when they can do it, etc. I often find issues with this sort of thing when watching movies, as it seems the characters entire reason for being is for the scenes in which they live.

Best of luck to ya with this!

Yeah, the dialogue twisting worked for me because I know I suck at dialogue and I was shooting it. I'm sure if someone else had it, they'd have a different way of doing it, but you're also right in that though I may have shot on flick that way, we also have to be writers and toil over every word. There were several times I made them stick to the script because I wanted lines a certain way. And there were some other times when they did lines different in different takes which made cutting some scenes together just hell. Sticking to the script is the most ideal.

Yes, Sandra, I do feel that there is something here worth holding on to which is why I'm not just throwing it all out. I know part of the character twisting was for Elliott's idea of the story, but naturally, I can't just blame the other guy. After all, I wrote the actual script. But I do find it interesting that one thing that kept you going was Kelsey's tale being left up in the air. I'll have to keep that in mind and leave other things up there as well, so you're not just looking for one resolution.

And Dreamscale, the best characters had a life before the movie and should have an idea of where they'll be if they survive the movie. I got some complaints on a horror script once because I spent a lot of time on two characters that were hacked five pages later. People were getting attached. But those characters were people who had aspirations for their lives if some psycho hadn't stuck a tree stake through them. It's always important to keep those lives outside the plot in mind and treat these people like people. People, as a rule, always live in the past, present, and future. They thrive on their experiences, deal with their situations, and hope for a future better than where they are now.

I have little doubt that the Revised version will be vastly different and vastly better.

Oh yeah, and I imagine slabby appreciates the shout out for The Big Fade...

Quoted from George Willson

. But those characters were people who had aspirations for their lives if some psycho hadn't stuck a tree stake through them. ...

Isn't that the way it always works out? You have dreams and aspirations and the WHAM tree stake right through you.

Hi George,

I liked your reasoning behind the way you wrote this script.

Nevertheless, I still think a rewrite from the beginning to the battle scene will dramatically change the scope of this script towards the end.

If you make Brad and Alex just associates who have never been friends.

A shot at the beginning showing Brad leaving the scene where a girl is unconscious with perhaps a used needle next to her.  To give Brad a cover story.

Brad leaves to go to his dealer who in turn is paid to help him out as he's been out and needs his homework for the next day.

The pyramid line.  I understand why you've wrote this even without the explanation.  But it feels really shallow.  More suited to a comedy than a serious drama.

The watch.  Not sure if anybody has mentioned this as I've skimmed through the posts (sorry).  But if Laura retains the watch in the rewrite.  And if she remains unconscious.  She'll be examined head to toe.  The doctors will find she's been abused.  Plus, it's very likely to have skin scrapings under her finger nails from Brad.  Also, the watch would have to be a unisex watch, and as Brad is captain of the football team.  I can imagine a huge chunky watch, not suited for a girl to wear.

If this place is in a small town, I think DNA testing maybe out of the question.  But if possible, can the state pick this tab up or some sort of department?

The drugs at the beginning can explain Brad's change of personality and so the mirror scenes.  Brad will have to develop typical traits found with drug users half-way through the script.

I also found Alex to be very similar to the character out of America Beauty.  The one with the camera who's also a drug dealer.

Anyway, I think a detective will have to come into it intermittently.

All the best, and I won't be put off reading any other scripts of yours.  A clean slate from the start, always. :-)

Javier

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