This time, we're doing Coffee & Inspiration, a script by Mike Shelton that is being produced. Mike can feel free to chime in and tell us about the production, but not much more than that until we've read through it and had our discussion.

Read the script here.
The thread is here.

If you've read the version on Mike's site, that's a different version from this one, and is not the one that was filmed. So you'll have to start over and read this one if your read that one. Unlike the previous clubs, one request was that we have the forum open for free chatter right from the beginning.

We're starting with the first impressions, so consider that while reading it through. First impressions are important so I would like to know what your first impression was after reading. Something simple like, Good, Great, Boring, Slow, Exciting, Scary or whatever. That may also help us later to narrow down why we felt this or that and where the problem areas might be (since nobody's perfect).

We're going to see how this goes, freeing up the discussion a bit. If you need a talking point, use the topics below. Let's try to start with first impressions, but don't feel limited to that if the muse strikes you. Let's just go, and see what happens.

First impression
Story/structure/plot
Characterization/arc/journey
Dialogue
Writing
Commercial appeal

I'll start... I just finished reading it and I really enjoyed it. I thought the Jill deaths got to the point where they were just hilarious, and unlike the comedy rule where three is the limit, these never got old. There were a few points where a transition (dialogue-wise) was a little awkward, but overall, I loved the characters and Gabe's little struggle. Anyone else?

I'm on page 41.  Should be done in an hour or so.

This is going to be a tough SC for me...I can tell already.  This isn't my cup of tea...or coffee, I guess I should say.

First impression (so far) is very, very dull.

I have only had time for the first 50 so far. Will read the rest tomorrow.

Although my first impression is a little talkie, I do have a feeling it was written to be easy to shoot with few characters and few locations.

I read this script a long time ago.   This was not one of my favourites of Mr. Shelton's scripts (Mr. Shelton already knows this).  And my first impression when the Script Club chose it was:  Shit! I'm going to have to read it again!  

I don't know if it's changed much since I read it but maybe my taste in scripts has.  Either way I'll find out.  

OK, finished.

I'm going to stick with my first impression.  It is very, very dull.  I think most of you already know that I'm not a comedy lover, and I rarely find comedy to be actually funny.  I don't think I laughed or even smiled once with this.  I did roll my eyes and shake my head numerous times though.

As Pia just said, this was EXTREMELY talky, and for the most part, the chatter wasn't going anywhere and was VERY redundant.  To make matters worse, nothing was going on in the scene while all the chatter was taking place.  Someone referenced "talking heads" in a review I recieved awhile back, and this comment now makes sense to me.

On a positive note, I think Shelton did a good job in tying everything up at the end, as in every single character's situation was resolved in some way.  I don't see the point here at all, though, unless it's humor that wasn't humorous to me.

I'll try and stay back so others can jump in.  I will also try and be as positve as I can be going forward.

Ok, Just finished. first impression is, This is dull.

Not a big fan of this to be honest, it kinda dragged on quite a bit. I never really laughed or thought anything was that funny. I wanted to like this because I like some of Sheltons other work but this really did nothing for me.

My biggest problem with this was I really did not care about any of the characters, and if I dont care about the characters I am not going to like the script.

As was mentioned by Pia and Dreamscale this was very "Talky" , I dont have a problem with that, I enjoy dialog heavy stories and alot of my own scripts are dialog driven, but most of the conversation in this script just kinda went around in circles and did not come across as very funny and it did nothing to really drive the story forward.

Best part of this was the beginning interactions between Gabe and Cam, I really liked those alot and I thought they were well written, but it went down hill fast for me when Gabe gets to coffee shop.

Guess I don't have much original to add.  The script was just interesting enough for me to not walk away from it.  The characters were likeable enough, but there wasn't really anything as far as conflict.  What little conflict there was felt exaggerated.  Everything felt too leisurely and relaxed.

I think Franklin getting trapped in the bathroom was probably the most interesting part for me.

This was a well written comedy with dialogue that had that...  ;D well, that comedic flair :)

Even this:

I’m at the hotel
just on the edge of town.

I thought: Guess there's only one. Tee-hee.

Really well done Mike!!!

Sandra

Ok, I've just read the previous comments and I have to say that I'm surprised. I seriously did find this funny. (Seriously... stupid thing to say ;D). I could actually see this kind of thing "almost" happening. But then again, I grew up with 3 very much older brothers and sometimes I'd tag along with their friends and hang out in Denny's until 4 in the morning drinking the star beverage of this script.

A lot of senseless and funny dialogue happens at Dennyses at 4 in the morning that's for sure.

The talking heads isn't talking heads in this because it's a script and not a novel and there's plenty of room for improv from the actors.

Tomorrow, I'll take another look at it, but I did enjoy this and I think it would be especially fun to watch on screen and a lot of fun for actors to work with.

Sandra

I just read through this script, and it was the same one I read all that time ago.  However, I didn't think it was that bad.  I still didn't like it and for just about the same reasons I didn't like it the first time. But I caught a bit more of the humor this read through so it made the journey tolerable.  

Since I did like it, I'll explain a little why I thought the humor worked for me. In my own opinion, there are two basic kinds of humor: sarcastic and cynical. Sarcastic humor creates situations where characters point fingers at someone else and make a joke at that person's expense. Cynical humor creates situations where a character does something to poke fun at themselves.

This humor difference is most clearly evident in British versus American comedy TV shows. I've noticed the comedic shows that come on PBS and originate from the UK are cynical in nature (from Monty Python to Keeping Up Appearances). Most American sitcoms, however, are sarcastic in that they make a series of jokes at some other characters' expense (reference The (fill in the comic actor's name) Show).

Ironically, my favorite American comedy show is The Simpsons, whose humor is of the cynical nature, and I prefer this variety of humor over the series of jokes. Also ironically, stand up comedians tend to be more cynical in nature with the sarcastic ones being known as "insult comics."

Mike's script is highly, highly cynical with the characters being parodies of types of people. These parodies are over the top from the writer with the bizarre writer's block to the germophobe who gets trapped in the bathroom because he can't open the door without his wet wipes. Some of it was over the top, but that's the nature of this sort of thing. If it weren't extreme, it wouldn't work as well.

He combines this humor with another classic humor category: slapstick. Where is the slapstick, you ask? Jill's deaths. The first time I was concerned because it was so shocking. By the time she was killed the 6th or 7th time, I was laughing consistently. When the gas chamber trapped whats-his-name, and he revealed Jill behind him in the box also to die, I about fell out of my chair. When she survived, it was satisfying and still funny because she finally was able to speak.

Did it have a classic structure? No, but that wasn't the goal. This was a simple parody of personalities and the tale of a writer with a serious case of writer's block. It wouldn't surprise me if this tale were partly autobiographical in nature.

Quoted Text When the gas chamber trapped whats-his-name, and he revealed Jill behind him in the box also to die, I about fell out of my chair.

Funny you mentioned that one.  This was literally the turning point for me on the Jill deaths.  The ones before felt...I don't know...lame?  forced?  Something was off, and I just didn't care for them.  This one I found really funny, and enjoyed them after that.

Personally, I feel that it wasn't funny enough overall to compensate for the deficiency in the plot.  The problem wasn't that I was upset with what I was getting, it's that I wasn't craving more.  It just wasn't gripping enough for me.

On a side note, you'd consider kicking someone in the nuts sarcastic?

George, interesting little disertation on comedy...and I do mean that.  Since comedy is not a genre I have much interest in, I did find your information to be very educational.

But it doesn't do anything to save this script, IMO.  The "death dreams" didn't work at all for me.  I found them odd and just way too much.  It was interesting that for the most part, every time a new character was introduced, he/she would pop up in a dream, so by the end, every character was involved in the dreams.  I don't think there was a single description of Jill though, and since she appears onscreen numerous times, I find that very odd.

The germophobe just wasn't funny in the slightest way for me.  I actually found it quite irritating that he would be so pathetic to stand in a restroom for hours.  Why wouldn't he just call out?  Why didn't anyone else use the restroom in all that time?  Oh yeah, because it's a comedy, and any of those actions would have ruined the overall effect.

Another big issue I had involved time...passing time.  It seems like this story starts out in the morning, and then somehow ends late in the night, meaning these assorted characters are doing nothing all day but drinking coffee in this little, crappy diner, where everyone who enters becomes best friends with everyone else.

Kicking someone in the nuts? That would be slapstick of the sarcastic variety since it involves a "punchline" (ha, I'm funny) at the expense of someone other than the deliverer. Sort of the "Three Stooges" variety of comedy. This is opposed to Charlie Chaplin and Buster Keaton in that they primarily tortured themselves. The comedy dissertation is just something I observed as a common thread in comedy stories; they lean one way or the other and most people also prefer one variety over the other.

That's more of a generality though as opposed to a hard and fast rule. Sort of like another observation I had once. When it comes to Elvis and the Beatles, people have a preference one way or the other. Elvis listeners also lean toward Country music or oldies where Beatles listeners lean toward rock music. Not a rule, but a common generality. I listen to both myself, but I prefer the Beatles just as I prefer rock over country. But I digress...

The funniest part of the germophobe was when he was going to leave the restroom and learned he was out of wipes. He'd been so over the top, you just knew he wouldn't go for the door handle.

Now, his staying in there the whole time was more about his extreme character than the comedy. It kept him consistent. And the "deadness" of the coffee shop spoke to no one going into the bathroom the whole time, though it is odd that the owner never went in there.

I did find the day/night transition weird, since it occurred while Gabe was in one of his "visions." In the psychiatry world, that's referred to as a blackout, and in the movie world, people usually wake up from those covered in blood, surrounded by dead bodies, and holding a knife. Then they wonder what just happened.

Jeff, do you find it interesting that our roles are now reversed? I believe I was down on the Strangers while you were speaking to its strong points...

Quoted from George Willson Since I did like it, I'll explain a little why I thought the humor worked for me. In my own opinion, there are two basic kinds of humor: sarcastic and cynical. Sarcastic humor creates situations where characters point fingers at someone else and make a joke at that person's expense. Cynical humor creates situations where a character does something to poke fun at themselves. This humor difference is most clearly evident in British versus American comedy TV shows. I've noticed the comedic shows that come on PBS and originate from the UK are cynical in nature (from Monty Python to Keeping Up Appearances). Most American sitcoms, however, are sarcastic in that they make a series of jokes at some other characters' expense (reference The (fill in the comic actor's name) Show). Ironically, my favorite American comedy show is The Simpsons, whose humor is of the cynical nature, and I prefer this variety of humor over the series of jokes. Also ironically, stand up comedians tend to be more cynical in nature with the sarcastic ones being known as "insult comics." Mike's script is highly, highly cynical with the characters being parodies of types of people. These parodies are over the top from the writer with the bizarre writer's block to the germophobe who gets trapped in the bathroom because he can't open the door without his wet wipes. Some of it was over the top, but that's the nature of this sort of thing. If it weren't extreme, it wouldn't work as well. He combines this humor with another classic humor category: slapstick. Where is the slapstick, you ask? Jill's deaths. The first time I was concerned because it was so shocking. By the time she was killed the 6th or 7th time, I was laughing consistently. When the gas chamber trapped whats-his-name, and he revealed Jill behind him in the box also to die, I about fell out of my chair. When she survived, it was satisfying and still funny because she finally was able to speak. Did it have a classic structure? No, but that wasn't the goal. This was a simple parody of personalities and the tale of a writer with a serious case of writer's block. It wouldn't surprise me if this tale were partly autobiographical in nature.

Nice little write up on the differences of Comedy.

I personally however enjoy both cynical and sarcastic as well as slapstick comedy, I love all comedy I would have to say my favorite is probably cynical comedy however.

With that said none of the comedy in this hit a chord with me, this may be a script that I would actually need to see on the big screen for it to make me laugh, I dont know but as is I just did not find it funny.

Everything seemed kind of forced. This whole story would have been better served as a thirty page short then a feature to me.

Shelton is great at writing natural dialog and that is very evident, the Dialog throughout this was very natural and felt "real" the problem was it wasn't funny and it didn't have a strong enough story around it.

I did not think this was a terrible script, it was written wonderfully, no complaints there. I just did not think it was particularly funny which is kind of a killer for a comedy script.

But Comedy like Beauty is often in the eye of the beholder.

As I said earlier, I found a bit more comedy in it this time.  Perhaps because I expected the parts I wasn't going to like so I relaxed more about the script.  I even like the idea of this coffee shop with all these stories happening inside of it, or inspired by it.

I didn't mind Jill or her many deaths, even got a chuckle out of a couple of them. They were  forced occasionally but that's what a running gag is about. I think there is definitely humor in here, and like most comedy you aren't going to get every joke.

My big problem with this script is Jack Amsterdam.   He comes in and swipes the hero role from Gabe. He is obnoxious in this script and I don't find him likable at all. He is a larger than life, unreal character, among realer ones.  And he just doesn't fit.    

As far as very first impressions go, I think that this has a really good opening. It reminded me quite a lot of Toy Story 2. But that's not a particularly insightful comment.

I think I agree with YaBoyTopher that the dialogue here was well-written, good to read, but what's lacking is a strong plot that has a definite sense of purpose. This has a sort of wandering quality that I don't think does it a whole lot of good. Also, the dream scenes, while funny, have the adverse effect of making what's going on in the real world have even less of a sense of progression, because they break things up quite a lot.

One of Jill's deaths struck me as odd - she gets hit by one of Del's darts, but he's already told us that all they do is incapacitate their target for 15 minutes. So she's not dead, right? I thought maybe this was the beginning of Gabe being cured, but then in the next dream Jill gets killed by Lily's heel. So that sort of ruined the dreams from then on for me.

As for characters...when the bum called Bum turned up, I instantly thought of Mike's waitress called Waitress in 180. I actually liked Franklin, thought he was quite funny. I was never particularly warm to Jack Amsterdam, as someone else said. He wasn't quite rogueish enough to be a rogue, and at times he was almost unpleasant.

I'll think of more things to say.

Quoted from mcornetto As I said earlier, I found a bit more comedy in it this time.  Perhaps because I expected the parts I wasn't going to like so I relaxed more about the script.  I even like the idea of this coffee shop with all these stories happening inside of it, or inspired by it. I didn't mind Jill or her many deaths, even got a chuckle out of a couple of them. They were  forced occasionally but that's what a running gag is about. I think there is definitely humor in here, and like most comedy you aren't going to get every joke. My big problem with this script is Jack Amsterdam.   He comes in and swipes the hero role from Gabe. He is obnoxious in this script and I don't find him likable at all. He is a larger than life, unreal character, among realer ones.  And he just doesn't fit.

Yea I agree with that, Jack did not really fit with the other characters and seemed out of place. He was a cool character but it seemed like he was in the wrong story.

I never really liked the Jill deaths all that much, the funniest to me was the stiletto heel.

Maybe it is because the only time we see her is during the dreams but I just did not think it really worked, it would have been funnier if she was a actual character in the story who he constantly kept seeing get killed in his dreams.

Yeah, George, it is interesting that our roles have reversed themselves...but...I said over and over again how I didn't think The Strangers was a great script or great movie, but it definitely did work onscreen.

I can't imagine this working onscreen, but then again, this comment is coming from someone who absolutely despises Seth Rogen flicks, but enjoyed Heartbreak Kid.  Most comedy just doesn't work for me.  The stuff that does, usually doesn't work for the masses.

But even worse than not being funny, this is just downright boring, with unappealing characters in ugly settings.

I’ve read to about page 68. I don’t normally like to comment on something until I’ve read the whole thing but in the interest of participating - and since I don’t know how soon I’ll be able to finish - I thought I’d go ahead and offer some first impressions.

First impressions of the title:

Coffee & Inspiration doesn’t really excite me. When I think of the title and premise, I immediately think of a writer drinking coffee and thinking to himself, what am I going to write? I know, I’ll write about a writer trying to figure out what to write. I immediately think of an exercise in overcoming writers block.

I’m not a big fan of writers writing about writers. I realize it can be done in a very compelling way. Charlie Kaufman’s Adaptation is one example, although I don’t personally think that’s really his best work. Stephen King makes a very lucrative living doing it.

Most often however a story about a writer trying to find inspiration is a way for the writer to essentially say that he didn’t really have any when he began the project. So I went into this with the expectation it would be slow and boring. It was solely based on the fact that I knew the author that I looked forward to it.

First impressions of the story:

I think it started off on the right foot by setting up that our main character was a bit of a Walter Mitty. It demonstrated right away that we would not spend the entire story merely sitting claustrophobically in a coffee shop. The fantasies were much less fanciful than what they could have been. It’s obvious that the script was designed with a lower budget in mind.

But in order for this story to succeed I feel it really has to harness its strong points. And I don’t really think it’s doing that up to this point.

The Jill character, whom we know nothing about except that Gabe is obsessed with her, is nothing in the story but a recurring pop up. She never speaks. We don’t know her and have no reason to care about her, and no reason to sympathize with Gabe’s situation.

Cam says she’s gone but that’s cryptic. We really don’t know anything about the situation, which would be fine if the situation would become clearer as the story progressed. But that area of the story, at least up to page 68, hasn’t progressed one bit. Jill, silent and meaningless, continues to just pop up and die repeatedly, without any real significance to the story.

Gabe is supposed to be our hero but he transfers everything to Jack and then Jack becomes our surrogate hero. So now the dream sequences don’t focus on Gabe and we have no one to really root for.

Lily is a good character and I’m interested to see where she goes, but we’ve lost Gabe now.

The odd assortment of characters are interesting but they haven’t contributed anything meaningful to the story.

I keep wanting more of Gabe’s motive to become clear. I want to know more about Jill and more about where Gabe’s fantasies are coming from. Writers block is treated as a mystery but we already know Jill is the answer. We know she has something to do with it. The mystery would be fine if we had a sense this was going somewhere but you’re beginning to lose me as a reader. I’m becoming disinterested due to the lack of any real insight from any of the characters.

Gabe is a nice guy but he’s not really progressing. Barb is a good character but she has no real arc, at least not any discernible one as of yet, and as a character contributing to Gabe’s character, she really doesn’t have anything to contribute to. Gabe himself doesn’t seem to have an arc. At least not one that is very interesting. He’s not even anyone important in his own fantasies anymore.

I like the Lily character and at this point I really hope her character will go somewhere.

Now please don’t take all this as totally negative. I would have put this script down a while ago if it didn’t have something to keep me going. I enjoy much of the conversations and in that sense, the script does much of what it was designed to do. It succeeds in a great deal of its goals.

The story moves along at a decent pace - albeit a bit of a reserved one - but it moves along before the reader feels too stagnant. Characters are just interesting enough to pull the reader forward (at least to a degree because my impatience with the lack of story progression is growing).

So it’s got good dialogue from a writer who knows how to lure a reader along. The problem for me is that the lack of any story unfolding is wearing thin. I want the story to unfold. I want an actual story to progress, not just events leading from one situation to the next. Gabe’s goal is not just to write a book. It’s to overcome his block. More specifically, it’s to overcome the source of his block. That’s his obstacle. He’s made no progress toward that goal. And progressing toward writing his book through arbitrary situations isn’t working for me as a substitute for progressing toward his real goal.

That’s how I feel up to this point. I’m enjoying the writing and seeing how skilled the author is at maintaining interest in the face of an overwhelming lack of substance to the story. And I do think this would work better on film than on paper. I could sit through this movie thus far and still be willing to give the movie a chance. But as a reader, at this point, I’m a little disappointed in the underdeveloped story and the lack of story progression.


Breanne

I'm not completely finished with this script.  I guess I'll give my first impression... when ever I look at a script for the first time I like to skim through it to see how much dialog is in it and how many actions are in it, and just looking at this script I could tell it would be an easy read, although like Breanne said the title is a bit boring and unexciting.

The dialog with in the few pages that I've read is a bit boring and sometimes on the nose, it helps the script move forward but it does too much to explain too much in too little space, like with in the first four pages the dialog is trying to explain Gabe's whole situation, I think that Shelton should have left somethings for the reader to learn on their own, like all of Jill's deaths, instead of having Gabe's roommate say that it was part of the writers block right away I think it would have been better if Shelton let me discover that on my own, sure I would have learned it quickly but it would have made for a much better read and most likely a better watch, instead of having to listen to people talk about what's going on in the movie let me discover it on my own.

I've got to say that I like the actions, they're short and they are well described.  That is what makes a screenplay easy to read.

Above All I like this story so far... I hope I can say a whole lot more about it when I'm done with it.

Finished this today.

My first gut reaction comment is the same as yesterday... too talkie. However, I did think things picked up at the end and turned out nicely.

I personally liked the "dream" sequences the most.

Sure i agree with some of the other comments here. Like, I would like to have got to know Jill just a tad more. Explore Gabe and her relationship a little more.

I also agree that JA, turns out to be the main character towards the end. And I did fid that a little disappointing because I liked him in his own script. Here he's not quite that likable.

Ok, since most of us seem to be in agreement for the most part on this script, why not discuss why this one was picked up for production? What made some filmmaker want to take the time to go through pre-production, production and finally post-production?

PS, on page 96 or so... you should have used the line "is she a great big fat person".  ;D

I think it was picked up because it seems like an easy film to make.  Like you said it is very talkative, and that could be very easy to film.  Most filmmakers like myself would pick a script like this because it's made up of a lot of dialog, doesn't have to many locations and most of the actions sequences could be shot for a pretty low price.  It's a little like Hard Candy, although that film took place in only three locations and was much easier to film than this could be.  

The idea seems very cheap, I would have made it just for that reason.

Xavier.

I don't think it was chosen 'just' because it was cheap. I could write you a script where a man peels an orange and eats it. For ninety minutes. Cheap to make? Yes. Interesting? No. No-one would pick that up for production. Part of the reason this was picked up HAS to be because the producer/director saw a film in it. Which, after all, is the point of any spec script - to try to put across the film that could be made from it, right? So this obviously did that to whoever picked it up.

It's funny. It IS funny, perhaps not as funny as I was expecting, but it has laughter moments. Yes it's cheap and easy to film, but there's surely more to it than that.

So, X, are you saying that it's difficult to find scripts that could be made on the cheap cheap?  You're saying you would make this soley because you could do it cheaply?

I think this getting picked up has much more to it than being an easy, cheap film.

Sometimes working on something simple with a producer will lead to other things...

If I remember correctly, this work of Mike's was not just produced but also led to assignment work.

That seems completely plausable to me, because I've seen the same thing happening to me and other "old regulars" here. we write shorts that lead to good relationships with filmmakers which in turn leads to feature assignments and stuff.  

I feel like laughing just thinking of Mike laughing at some of the comments. He's probably got a little red notebook going like Gabe in the movie with such brief notes that look like they have zero potential, but they do. Oh yes they do!!!  ;D

People seem to be taking a script that doesn't take itself seriously too seriously. Reflecting on Gabe's disappearance as the hero in the story. I betcha Mike planned it! I bet he did and he's got an evil grin right now, just like he did when he was writing the scene that had Jill captured under the glass with Cam in his final moments.

I think the good dialogue is part of what makes this a strong script. There are many Barbs out there and this is as much real as it is funny:

BARB
And here I thought I was just a
crummy waitress.

GABE
Nah, you’re not a crummy waitress.

Keith walks up to Barb and hands her the check and a ten
dollar bill.

KEITH
Yeah she is. I’ve been waiting for
her to grab that for twenty
minutes.

Quoted from Sandra Elstree. People seem to be taking a script that doesn't take itself seriously too seriously. Reflecting on Gabe's disappearance as the hero in the story. I betcha Mike planned it! I bet he did and he's got an evil grin right now, just like he did when he was writing the scene that had Jill captured under the glass with Cam in his final moments.

I'm sure he did plan it Sandra.  I can see that myself.  However, just because he planned it doesn't mean it works.

Exactly!  Of course he planned it...he planned everything about this script.  There's obviously alot of thought and planning involved here, and Shelton knew what he was doing.

But, as Conrnetto just said, that doesn't mean it works on the level that it is intended on working.

I finished it. I’m not sure what to make of it. I’m not even sure who the main character is. It seems to be Gabe one minute and Jack the next. I thought Jill was the female lead but then it seemed to be Lily. Ultimately I think you have to just take it for what it is - a collection of vignettes tied together with a common theme.

I didn’t find it laugh out loud funny. It was a very subdued comedy in my opinion. It did basically what it was trying to do. It just didn’t seem to me to be aspiring to much other than mild entertainment. Nothing wrong with that. It just didn’t really grab me or charm me and I think it was mostly due to the lack of sense that it had any direction to it. It didn’t seem to have any goals as a story. That and the fact that I couldn’t really latch on to any main character.

As to why it was picked to be produced:

I think it was for several reasons. Its low budget premise would certainly be one reason. But I think as far as the story itself, it had to have stood out in some way. There are numerous low budget scripts and the majority of them are turnoffs.

So what makes this stand out above the rest? I suspect it’s largely due to the fact that it’s dialogue driven with dialogue that’s more competent than the average.

Right here I would like to make a point regarding the subject of “talking heads.” Much has been said of newer writers who write scenes where characters engage in lengthy discussions. One thing that gets overlooked a lot when discussing talking heads is the very common mistake of not distinguishing characters enough. Too often dialogue driven scenes are more like a monologue from someone talking to himself; two characters who sound like the same person but with different names.

I’m sure the person who decided to produce this script easily recognized the competency of the dialogue here. The characters are distinguished in both word and deed and that sets it immediately apart from the average “talking heads” script.

So I think it was a combination of being a certain type of script reputed for its low budget appeal, colorful characters that can attract actors, and the fact that, for all its flaws, it still stands out among its kind, that got it selected to be produced.


Breanne

Just finished the script. Read the whole thing in an hour.

First impression was that it was slow, but involving. I liked some of the characters very early on, which is something many screenplays can't accomplish throughout their entire runtime. Well done in that regard.

Nice work on the dialogue, too. It read believably, and each character had a distinct voice to match their personality. I think this is one of the strongest character-driven scripts I've read in a while.

That said, I think there's too much dialogue in certain scenes (pages 28-31 and 71-76 really dragged for me), and this is a good thing because, at 103 pages, the script could use some trimming.

Quoted from escapist Funny you mentioned that one.  This was literally the turning point for me on the Jill deaths.  The ones before felt...I don't know...lame?  forced?  Something was off, and I just didn't care for them.  This one I found really funny, and enjoyed them after that.

That one definitely did it for me, as well, although my favorite was the airborne high heel. I seriously laughed out loud at that part.

I think this thing got produced for a few reasons. It could be done very cheaply, it is better written  then about 90% of scripts out there  and I am sure whoever produced it found it to be funnier then me and the others who did not really like it.

I think this script probably plays out better on screen then on paper.

As far as this being produced...Hmmm...I wonder who Mike slept with to make that happen...

I am SO just kidding...

Though this isn't one of my favourite scripts of Mike's, I could easily see it as a film.  It came off quite visual for me.  I could also imagine someone being very fond of it - like Sandra is - because it does have its charm in places and the dialogue is pretty natural.  So you have someone being able to see it as a film and they were fond of it,  plus you can't easily beat the price tag.  That spells "movie-making" to me.  

Guys, apologies but have not had time to read this yet. I probably will not get time until Saturday morning but will give some thoughts over the weekend. Just so you don't think I have voted for something I am not going to read, just a busy week is all.

Cheers.

I have read about 40 pages (in order, not just random pages in the script) and I will post my first thoughts soon. So far it's... slow but intriguing.

I was going to hold off ntil I was done, but since everyone else is chiming in, I will too.

Like Cornetto, I had read this before, and am enjoying it more the second time around.  Maybe that's because I'm not waiting for something to happen, so I'm able to enjoy it for what it is a little more.

I think it's funny, but  do see opportunities for it to be funnier.  (Although some of the payoffs may be coming up and I just haven't gotten to them yet.)

I think Johnny Boy made a good point (Your first Script Club!  Look at you go!)  about the exposition about Jill in the beginning.  I think it would have been great if that had come out in the dream sequences.  Each one reveals a little more about Jill, and/or Jill and Gabes relationship.

Also, did anyone pick up on a pattern as to when the dream sequences occur?  I haven't, although it's entirely possible I'm missing it.  But that would have been a cool way to move the story along.  

Quoted from mcornetto My big problem with this script is Jack Amsterdam.   He comes in and swipes the hero role from Gabe. He is obnoxious in this script and I don't find him likable at all. He is a larger than life, unreal character, among realer ones.  And he just doesn't fit.

I agree on the first part, but disagree on the second.  Jack taking over as the hero was a big problem for me, too.  However, I didn't find him obnoxious or larger than life.  I did feel like all the other characters seemed a little awestruck by him, though I couldn't quite figure out why.  If you look at what he actually does in the story...it's really not that much.  Confidence seems to be the leg-up he has on the others, Gabe in particular.

Also, I have to disagree with those who want more of Jill.  I think we already know everything we need to know about her.  She's Gabe's ex, it didn't end well, and he's having trouble getting over it.  His goal isn't reconciling with her or making amends, it's simply moving on.  Heck, the relationship isn't even the focus.  His writing is.  For that reason I think it would be really unnecessary to add one more character to a cast that's already a bit crowded.

For why it was picked up for production, I can think of a few reasons. Or at least I'll say why I would have produced it.

1) It's not boring. That's the most important one for me. Comedy and winding plot aside, it wasn't boring, and I can't see it play out onscreen as boring. I believe it's engaging enough to keep someone wondering what is going to happen next since it comes off as random enough to make you curious.

2) It's overall inexpensive with "extras." Sure, it has that "on the cheap feel" on the page when you go over the talking heads and their existence in the primary locations, but the script also has these dream vignettes that crop up for real short, quasi-action sequences that break up the talking heads. These sequences are short enough that you could get one of those locations for less than a day to knock them out, and yet those asides make the movie "feel" more expensive than it really is.

3) I liked it. And since I liked it, I would think someone else might too, and would want to see it through to completion. I wouldn't spend time on crap I didn't like.

I think the JA comments are from those of us who's read The Swinging Sounds of Jack Amsterdam. He was a different character in that one. A very likable one so that's why it felt odd to see him here and be different. When he first showed up, I smiled with anticipation.

In regards to the style of this script, I think it's classic Shelton. Very low-key, relaxed and easy going comedy. I think there are quite a few people out there that like films like that. Hasn't he had three produced by now.

It's also largely non-offensive comedy. It uses personality types as opposed to specific groups of people for its prodding, so it can be said to be "safe" in terms of minimizing offending someone. It doesn't really rely on shock tactics or foul language either. It's just a series of easy going jokes that work well if you're the kind of person to get it. The main weakness is that it isn't for everyone, but hey, what is?

I started reading this script when it was first posted, but I put it after twenty or thirty pages.  This time, I read it through, thinking that I may have missed something that would've kept me going.  I didn't find it.  I didn't think that this was a very good.  For the most part it was extremely unfocused.  It went here.  It went there.  It went somewhere else.  And none of these places were good.  It read very much like a first draft script.

The storyline being that Gabe meets a punch of interesting people whil trying to overcome writer's block doesn't come off as a story.  It's more like a bunch of ideas that flashed in Mike's head that he chose to write down without thinking them through.  For this reason, mostly, the scripts dragged.  And it made that annoying nails-on-the-blackboard scraping noise as it did.  Chunks of it could be taken out without affecting the story at all:  Keith and Vallery's part, in the beginning, wouldn't be missed.  Franklin's entire role could be pulled out without anyone noticing.  And the same with Bum.  Mike, if this was an excercise in writing interesting characters, then I think you failed.

Another big problem I had was that everyone was just so willing to start up conversations with perfect strangers.  "I'm a germophobe and touching things is discussing!"  "Some greasy guy wants me to strip for him."  "I accidently killed my little sister during rough sex."  Why do people want to talk about these things?  Maybe it's because of where I'm from, but strangers don't just open up to each other like this.

The characters, IMHO, were all weak.  Yago was not a villain.  Until you get to the very end of the story, all he does is break a salt shaker.  Pulling out his switch blade comb in every scene only reinforced this with me.  Jack wasn't used to his potential as you never showed him actually singing.  He's a lounge singer.  Show it!  His connections with 'friends' didn't do it for me either as you really don't show that.  You tell us this and expect us to believe it.  I never liked Fonzie, from Happy Days, for the same reason; the show told us he was the coolest without showing him doing anything cool.  The characters of Barb and Del weren't even developed past their names and their roles in the story.  Why not give them quirks?

Oh, and Cam is a dick.

I thought the dialogue dragged a little.  Ninety-five percent of this script was talking heads.  With minor revisions, this could easily have been a radioplay.  I'm in the minority, here, by thinking the dialog wasn't that great.  There was no life to it, for the most part.  Some seemed on the nose.  Some seemed very forced and unnatural.  On page 55, Bum says "Sorry if my apearance has offended... I'll be sure to take a bath the minute I get that water hookup in my cardboard box, alright?"  Very eloquent and educated dialog from a bum.  You have a higher class of homeless people where you are than where I am.  I'm actually surprised that he would even be allowed in the diner, but that's a story for another day.

Congrats on getting this picked up, Mike.  But  I just don't understand how or why.


Phil

Quoted from mcornetto My big problem with this script is Jack Amsterdam.   He comes in and swipes the hero role from Gabe. He is obnoxious in this script and I don't find him likable at all. He is a larger than life, unreal character, among realer ones.  And he just doesn't fit.

This was my biggest issue with the script, too.

Jack is the only character in the entire script without a flaw. He's generous. He stands up for people. He can do no wrong, and everybody loves him. I found that annoying, especially since everyone else we've grown to love seems to have a problem they need to face, which they spend the entire movie trying to accomplish.

Then Jack comes in, promotes himself more than once by prancing around the town with a big, look-at-me-because-I'm-popular smile on his face. That bothered me.

As for why this script got produced, I think it's clear Shelton is a fantastic writer, one who works his way around a story with characters you recognize and ideas you remember. As a storyteller, he leaves a lasting impression on his audience.

Quoted from escapist I have to disagree with those who want more of Jill.  I think we already know everything we need to know about her.  She's Gabe's ex, it didn't end well, and he's having trouble getting over it.  His goal isn't reconciling with her or making amends, it's simply moving on.  Heck, the relationship isn't even the focus.  His writing is.

I just don’t see how you can justify these comments. His relationship with Jill and his writing are directly related. Jill is the reason for Gabe’s writers block. His obsession for her is the catalyst to the story. Even you admit his goal is moving on. Yet we never know why he needs to move on or how he might. The script explicitly tells us when he’s over her without ever showing us anything had occurred to move him toward that goal.

Gabe’s goal was so vague it hardly served as a goal. He had no obstacles in his path to prevent him from reaching his goal so he overcame no obstacles. And then he simply announced that his goal was attained as though it was all just a matter of time anyway.

This story could just as well have been written about heartburn. Gabe might just as well have said at the beginning, “I’ve got heartburn and it won’t go away.” Then he could have spent the entire story meeting quirky characters who offered him all manner of kooky heartburn remedies, only to reach the end and have him declare, quite arbitrarily, that his heartburn has simply passed.

This story doesn’t defy story conventions. It doesn’t have enough story to sustain itself.



I think it’s important to note here the difference between a script written for an independent producer and a script written for Hollywood. This script would never survive the Hollywood development process with so little structure. But as an independent script, it does stand out. It comes off as something Mike just sat down and wrote fancifully with very little planning. It works as a sort of subdued stream-of-consciousness piece.

I can’t see the produced film (without revisions) ever reaching any sort of commercial success but I can see it as a good stepping stone for the director. And the producer quite possibly (probably) has his own ideas to add to it.


Breanne

Quoted from Breanne Mattson I think it’s important to note here the difference between a script written for an independent producer and a script written for Hollywood. This script would never survive the Hollywood development process with so little structure. But as an independent script, it does stand out. It comes off as something Mike just sat down and wrote fancifully with very little planning. It works as a sort of subdued stream-of-consciousness piece.

I'm going to have to disagree with you, Breanne.  Indie filmmakers still look for strong characterization and stories.  This script, unfortunately, doesn't really have it.  While you describe the script as a sort of subdued stream-of-consciousness piece, others may look at it as unfocussed rambling.


Phil

I actually agree with Breanne and Phil, to certain degrees.

There is very little actual story here.  And like Bre said, Gabe's goal is really almost non existent.  The fact that we never learn literally anything about Jill, makes it even less significant.  I mean, seriously, we don't even get a single piece of descritptive prose about Jill...what does she look like?  What is she like?  Where is she?  What happened to their relationship?  Without knowing anything, I don't see how anyone can care about Jill, or her relationship with Gabe...and if you don't care about it, then what's really left here?

What's left may be what Phil just said...unfocussed rambling.  I don't mean to be quite so blunt in saying that, because I do see much more here...at least much more is attempted.  But when its all said and done, and you finsih this script, what goes through your mind?  Are you happy with what you just sat through?  Were you entertained?  Does it make you stop and think?

I didn't need to see more of Jill because only her deaths were of actual importance. I also wouldn't have minded that there actually isn't much of a story, if an attempt wasn't made to put a story there.

The story I see is this writer who wants to write something of importance, something people will remember but he has writer's block.  Through his series of misadventures he becomes inspired to write his great American novel.   And my take on this is that the preceding stories are his novel.  My problem here is that the stories aren't that great and with the exception of the germaphobe - not that memorable.  So the script implies that Gabe is going to deliver something that he never does.  And to top that off he doesn't even get the girl.

Anyway, here's a blog post that might interest most of the people involved in this thread.  http://www.gointothestory.com/2009/01/spec-script-sales-2008-analysis-genres.html  -  It's an analysis of spec script sales by genre.  

I'm not saying that I wanted or needed to see more of Jill either, but as it is, isn't it quite odd how although she is in evey single dream (and there must be at least 7 or 8 of these dreams), we have absolutely no idea what she's like...in literally any way!

There's not really a description of what anyone looks like in the script.  So, kind of a description of Jill would be incongruous.

I think the first time I read this I did criticize Mike for not including more about Jill.  But on the second reading it didn't seem to matter as much.   She really isn't an important character overall - she's more of a symbol - and the director could pull anyone in off the street to play her.  

I agree Michael, but isn't it strange that we have a central character that is in many scenes, but never says or does anything?  For me, it's just impossible to try and picture her, and actually, I don't even want to or care to.  Whether or not characters are given physical desriptions, we paint a picture of them in our heads, based on what they do and say.  It's impossible with Jill, and for me, that's a big problem that renders all the dream scenes as ineffective, and pretty much meaningless.

Quoted from Dreamscale I agree Michael, but isn't it strange that we have a central character that is in many scenes, but never says or does anything?  For me, it's just impossible to try and picture her, and actually, I don't even want to or care to.  Whether or not characters are given physical desriptions, we paint a picture of them in our heads, based on what they do and say.  It's impossible with Jill, and for me, that's a big problem that renders all the dream scenes as ineffective, and pretty much meaningless.

I agree, The fact that we do not know Jill at all, the fact that she only exists in dreams and does nothing but Die in them renders the gag of her death not funny.

If in fact she was a real person who really interacted in the same world as everyone else the whole joke of her death in every dream would be far more effective at least for me.

What YaBoyTopher says is true to a certain level, it would be a bit funnier if we knew more about Jill, you know if she was a bitch in real life it would be way more funnier in the dreams. But at the same time it wouldn't really be too funny if she was in the realities of the story and then was killed in every dream just because.  It would be funny if she was real in the story only if there's a meaning in why she dies.

Quoted from dogglebe I'm going to have to disagree with you, Breanne.  Indie filmmakers still look for strong characterization and stories.  This script, unfortunately, doesn't really have it.  While you describe the script as a sort of subdued stream-of-consciousness piece, others may look at it as unfocussed rambling.

I’m not saying independent filmmakers don’t value story or characterization. Quite the opposite. What I’m saying is that independent films don’t require scripts with as strong of a story structure as a Hollywood film because the development process is so much smaller.

As far as whether or not this script has enough story (or characterization) to be produced at all, I don’t personally think it does. I question whether there’s enough material there for a feature length film. But whoever picked this up felt it did. He may have ideas for a direction to go with this that you or I haven’t considered.

There must be reasons why it was picked up. I’m just speculating on what they might be. Why do you think this was picked up?


Breanne

George really likes this one and can see why it was produced. That answers it I think... All it takes is someone who is looking to make a film, reads something, likes it, can visualize it and decides to use it. It doesn't have to be loved by the majority.

I have read many Hollywood produced scripts that made me scratch my head and say "why on earth would anyone want to do this one?", but that's really all it takes. Someone looking for a script to shoot and the will to see it through.

Quoted from mcornetto I think the first time I read this I did criticize Mike for not including more about Jill.  But on the second reading it didn't seem to matter as much.   She really isn't an important character overall - she's more of a symbol - and the director could pull anyone in off the street to play her.

I agree that Jill is a symbol. I don't think Mike intended her to be anything more than that. She's kind of like a ruminating "thing"-- a stuck place. She's the personification of writer's block... or something like that.  ;D

Sandra

Should we move onto a new subject?  We're kind of hitting a whole bunch already.

There seems to be a bunch who aren't finished yet, or haven't even started yet, it appears.

Whatever you guys want to do...or...I mean whatever our moderator wants to do:).

Not sure where George is, but yes we probably should move on.

Quoted from Breanne Mattson I just don’t see how you can justify these comments. His relationship with Jill and his writing are directly related. Jill is the reason for Gabe’s writers block. His obsession for her is the catalyst to the story. Even you admit his goal is moving on. Yet we never know why he needs to move on or how he might. The script explicitly tells us when he’s over her without ever showing us anything had occurred to move him toward that goal.

I'm not really clear on what I'm supposed to be justifying.  I disagree with you that Jill is the reason for Gabe's writers block.  Rather, I feel like she's simply the manifestation of his writer's block.  And while I agree that we're told when the writers block is gone rather than shown, I fail to see how developing Jill's character would contribute positively to the situation.  As others have pointed out, Jill is more of a symbol than anything else.  Well, a symbol and a punchline.

Quoted Text It's also largely non-offensive comedy. ... The main weakness is that it isn't for everyone, but hey, what is?

Actually, as non-offensive comedy, I'd say that it IS for everyone.  The problem is that it isn't really targeted towards anyone.  So you don't really have a core of fans like you do with raunchier stuff such as Clerks or Superbad.  On the other hand, you aren't pushing away the people that those films tend to turn off.

No, it's definitely not for everyone...or even close.  And I don't mean anything bad or negative by that.

But this is definitely not aimed at the masses, and that's a good thing.  I'm not sure exactly what the production deal is for this, but whatever it is, it's not going to be a big mainstream movie, because it simply isn't that beast.

As many have said (that like this), it's a small, funny, laid back little movie.  And that's great.  But don't think it's for everybody.  

Quoted from escapist I disagree with you that Jill is the reason for Gabe's writers block.

How can you disagree with me that Jill is the reason for Gabe’s writers block? The script explicitly tells us she is.

On page 68, the character Cam states in reference to Gabe that Jill is:

“His ex, and the source of the most fucked up case of writer’s block I’ve ever seen.”

Quoted from escapist I fail to see how developing Jill's character would contribute positively to the situation.

You don’t see how developing Jill’s character could contribute positively to the situation? It would give us tremendous insight into Gabe’s character, his motives, his goals, his obstacles, how he will overcome his obstacles. It would not only contribute positively to the situation, it’s virtually imperative for a complete story.


Breanne

Just finished. Was alright. I liked it.

I think this was for the masses. It wasn't "too" anything. It's a well rounded comedy.

I would have liked to see Jill in reality. Even if it was in flashback form, when Gabe and her were together.

Dreamscale, what type of audience do you think this would be made for?

A small audience...one which finds this funny...and entertaining...and worth choosing over many other options.

I do believe there is an audience for this, and I do think it's well written and put together.  I just don't think there's much here and for me personally, I don't find it funny at all, or entertaining, and as many have said, it definitely suffers in terms of many, many "technical" things.

George tends to check out the site a few times during the day and then be almost completely absent at night. It's because I should work at work instead of surfing the net.

As for moving on a subject, this is going remarkably well for a sort of stream of consciousness discussion. Most people have started with thier first impressions and then discussed some general highs and lows. These have flowed into the major problem areas for the script in terms of character and structure.

We've discussed commercial potential which seems to be there if the script is someone's "thing" and most seem to think that Mike's actual writing is good even though this might not be their favorite of his works.

I don't know how many people are still reading, but I encourage them to continue and do what everyone else has done: start at first impressions and then explain yourself. Since the daily points have been softened to talking points, it's going very, very well.

What we know so far (based on the consensus):
1) the structure is generally weak primarily due to the lead character's goal of overcoming writer's block and his general lack of action to overcome it.
2) the characters are a little odd in that they come and go and tell anyone anything as long as it factors into the plot. I did note that some of the dialogue transitions were awkward, the one where Gabe comments on Goodfellas standing out to me in a negative way.
3) Jill is a nebulous character though there is a general disagreement over whether more is needed of her to make her more real or whether she amounts to a device that represents the block and no more is needed. I'm of the latter persuasion, and think she's better as the symbol not knowing how we should feel about her as a person since only Gabe's memory of her truly exists.

I think the conversation can continue since more minds have caused it to flow in different directions and not continually beat a dead horse. I found the read of the last dozen posts interesting. If you need a point to talk from, consider how it could have been done differently. Since this is being produced, it won't change the script, but we can learn how others might have written the same thing differently.

Carry on.

Quoted from Breanne Mattson On page 68, the character Cam states in reference to Gabe that Jill is: “His ex, and the source of the most fucked up case of writer’s block I’ve ever seen.”

But that quote is basically an assumption from Cam - on page one.

CAM
I’d have to go with the last
one. Obsession.
GABE
I guess it’s possible.

Gabe guesses that obsession is a possibility but I take it from this that he doesn't really believe it.   There's another reason hidden there in the subtext.

A little later in the dialogue

GABE
I’ve been working on the book. I’m
just not getting anywhere. And it
certainly doesn’t help when I can’t
think of any characters besides me
and you.

All Gabe can think about is himself and Cam.  Hmmm.  Sounds like he has something else on his mind other than Jill.  And perhaps he isn't expressing his true feelings for Cam.  

Dreamscale... Would you think this would be a cult movie?

"one which finds this funny...and entertaining" can't you say that about any comedy? And more specifically, the "entertaining" bit for nearly every movie?

Sure, based on the quote..I'd agree.  But I'm not thinking...or saying that thsi script will have a large audience.  That's based on lots of comments in here, not only from me (or even ME :)).

Are you saying you find this to be a big hit?  Are you saying it works for you?  Just curious.

Quoted from Breanne Mattson You don’t see how developing Jill’s character could contribute positively to the situation? It would give us tremendous insight into Gabe’s character, his motives, his goals, his obstacles, how he will overcome his obstacles. It would not only contribute positively to the situation, it’s virtually imperative for a complete story.

As mcornetto pointed out, you're basing your reasoning on something Cam said.  And really...do you wanna trust Cam?   ;)  In the process, you're ignoring the subtext...the fact that Gabe never says anything about her, never has any aversions or emotional responses when she's brought up.  Clearly, he isn't obsessed with her.  He's simply using her as a character because he can't think of any others.  Her presence is a result of writers block rather than the cause.

Sure, Shelton could develop her character more.  But that would completely alter the script.  We'd be looking at a romcom then, or even a drama.  But I don't really feel like I need more insight into Gabe's character.  His goal is to write the great American novel, his obstacle is writers block, and I think even his motives come across fine.  For a light-hearted comedy, that is more than sufficient.  What IS lacking is how he will overcome those obstacles.  Personally, I think any development of Jill would be a distraction from the actual story, and a further hindrance of seeing how Gabe overcomes his obstacle.

Quoted from mcornetto All Gabe can think about is himself and Cam.  Hmmm.  Sounds like he has something else on his mind other than Jill.  And perhaps he isn't expressing his true feelings for Cam.

Now this is hilarious!  Let Barb express this idea in the script, and you've got one heck of a joke, especially with her "gift".

Now I KNOW that Shelton is laughing his ass off.

I think we're going a little to deep here for what this is...and what this is meant to be.

You know?  Or am I wrong here?

Dreamscale... I don't think it will be a big hit. It is okay, in terms of it working for me. I think the fact that Mike wrote it as a low budget script gives him some boundaries, which could explain why you don't think it will be a big hit.

I think we have had enough of the "me" "Me" jokes!!

Yeah, maybe we should move on...

Quoted from escapist As mcornetto pointed out, you're basing your reasoning on something Cam said.  And really...do you wanna trust Cam?   ;)  In the process, you're ignoring the subtext...

I’m not basing my view solely on what Cam said. There are other passages that almost directly say the same thing. I’m basing my view on the story as a whole.

I can’t believe so many people actually think there’s some subtext to Jill’s character or that the author intended her as a use of symbolism. I don’t see how anyone can arrive at any other conclusion than that Jill is used as a weak catalyst for a very thin storyline. Other than that, Jill is almost completely arbitrary.

In any event, I’m not sure what else there is to say about this script. I would be interested to hear Mike’s thoughts on why it was picked up.


Breanne

Quoted from George Willson 1) the structure is generally weak primarily due to the lead character's goal of overcoming writer's block and his general lack of action to overcome it.

This was my main thought as I read the script - who's the lead character here? I know it's supposed to be Gabe, but he's just so passive throughout the entire story. I can't think of one thing he actually does for himself. Cam suggests the coffee shop, Gabe goes. Barb points out who everyone is. Jack Amsterdam suggests they go to the bar, which they later do. It's Cam who first meets Lily. And then Gabe's actually unconscious for a good chunk of the last bit! I think he could be a little more active, have a bit more incentive. After all, as people have said, he's the one with the problem, but he just lets everyone ELSE solve it for him.

So true Jonnyboy. Gabe does change as a character, but doesn't grow. I would like to see him be more active, fixing things himself instead of relying on others.

Slightly off topic.... I was annoyed about how in every flashback, it was the same thing. I said to myself, "here we go again". It's a bit too predictable in a way.

Thoughts?

Quoted from Breanne Mattson I can’t believe so many people actually think there’s some subtext to Jill’s character or that the author intended her as a use of symbolism. I don’t see how anyone can arrive at any other conclusion than that Jill is used as a weak catalyst for a very thin storyline. Other than that, Jill is almost completely arbitrary.

I agree, here.  Jill doesn't represent anything.  She's Gabe's reason for his block and the punchline for some jokes.

Quoted from Tommyp Slightly off topic.... I was annoyed about how in every flashback, it was the same thing. I said to myself, "here we go again". It's a bit too predictable in a way.

The flashbacks didn't move the story along at all, IMHO.  They were just jokes, it seemed.  The first one could be considered needed, as it helps set up the story, but the additional ones aren't important.  You could just as easily show Gabe 'snapping out' of the additional ones.



Phil
Phil

I agree with Phil that it feels like a first draft.  Looking through it, I see a bunch of things that could have been developed and made funnier.

And I think Shetlon said it was for Lifetime, which I can definitely see.  They may have to change the line about getting railed by seventeen guys in two days.  But I hope they don't.

Quoted from seamus19382 And I think Shetlon said it was for Lifetime, which I can definitely see.

Really, Lifetime?  Am I remembering incorrectly or is Lifetime the channel that mostly shows movies targeted towards middle-aged women?  I don't really see this having that much appeal for that demographic.

Quoted from seamus19382 And I think Shetlon said it was for Lifetime, which I can definitely see.  They may have to change the line about getting railed by seventeen guys in two days.  But I hope they don't.

Just to put that right, this is a post from the thread where we picked the script:

Quoted from Shelton Can we pick a script already?  We've only got about 12 options, and one of them is even a Lifetime movie.  We can all aspire to that, right?

This wasn't intended for Lifetime.

This has nothing to do with the script (directly):  why is this discussion not on the C&I thread?  Or will it all be moved there after we're done here?


Phil

Well, let's get back on track here then.  Where's are Moderator??????

Quoted from escapist Really, Lifetime?  Am I remembering incorrectly or is Lifetime the channel that mostly shows movies targeted towards middle-aged women?  I don't really see this having that much appeal for that demographic.

So now I'm a demographic eh? Well, I never!!  ;)

People have complained that they want Gabe to be some kind of hero protagonist or something.  ;D They want him to be proactive, solve his problems like a good protagonist should. But that wouldn't be any fun here:

CAM
No. You got all those characters
in there, right? Why don’t you
take them all, shuffle them around
a bit, you know? Put them in
groups or something.

Gabe sits back and folds his arms across his chest.

GABE
Wow, Cam, wow. Take a bunch of
characters, put them together, and
write a story around it. That’s
fucking brilliant. I can’t believe
nobody ever thought of that before.

CAM
Would you quit being a smartass and
let me finish? ...

*And here we go with Cam now... talking about using a comb to bring people together.

I'm sorry, but this to me is really funny and I'd love to see this on the screen.

The way I see it, this script isn't about plot; it's about incidents and it's about Mike having some fun with knocking out his main character.  ;D

Sandra

Sandra, you say you want to see this on the screen, but haven't you said many times that you rarely ever see movies?  Are you saying of all the scripts you read, this is the one you most want to see?  I find that amazing...and odd.

Quoted from Dreamscale Well, let's get back on track here then.

You're absolutely right.  Let's get back to the script.

It needs a talking dog.


Phil

Or maybe the would be stripper with the heart of gold needs to actually strip a few times...or maybe once she strips the first time, she should just leave her clothes off for the remainder of the movie.  The talking dog could be part of her routine.

I hope it's not too late to join. I just finished the script, read all the comments and agree with many of them.

This wasn't for me, but I still enjoyed it to a degree. I read 10-15 pages of Shelton's Pimp Juice script and I got more laughs from that than the all 103 pages of this. That being said, I'm more of a stoner comedy lover than indie comedy.

I didn't have any problems with any of the characters. Jack annoyed me slightly because he didn't have a problem like all the others. I know some are saying Jill was meant to be a symbol but I think it would have been so much better had she been in the coffee shop when Gabe first entered. Just one scene. It would have made the death scenes a bit funnier. Franklin was my favorite character, he was one of the few I was actually laughing at.

The death scenes felt a bit random at times. Some were funny, some not so. It was a nice getaway from all the talking. Dialogue was fine, although I thought some of it dragged on a bit.

As for production, I would rent it from blockbuster, but wouldn't pay to see it in a cinema. I do believe there is an audience that would though. I just prefer the more offensive kind of comedy but that's just me.

Never too late to join.

Brian, I have a question for you...you start off by saying that this script isn't for you, but end by saying that you'd rent it at Blockbuster.  I don't get it.

Same thing with what Sandra said - she's gone on record by saying that she rarely, if ever sees a movie, whether at a theater or on DVD, but says that she wants to see this.

Is this what you guys really mean?  When I say something isn't for me, I wouldn't want to see it at all...unless it's a horrendous Grade Z horor movie that would actually work like a comedy..and unless I'm quite enebriated :)!

Maybe I haven't made myself clear...cause I don't think this is a terrible script or anythign even close...but it's definitely not for me, and I feel that it is extremely slow, dull, and not funny.  When I said earlier that this wouldn't be a big hit, I was merely referring to the potential that it has, and I feel that potential is small becaue the group of people that this would/could appeal to, is small in number.

Does that make sense?

Quoted from dogglebe This has nothing to do with the script (directly):  why is this discussion not on the C&I thread?  Or will it all be moved there after we're done here?

The reason these discussions are on their own threads as opposed to the script threads is because...well...we want them to be. The intent here is to discuss the various aspects of the script as opposed to just doing a straight review, which is what we see the main thread for. We haven't moved the comments to the thread in the past, though I suppose it wouldn't be a bad idea to drop a link in there.

So we welcome Brian into the fold, and no, it's not too late to join the discussion. Anyone is welcome at anytime. The idea of this format is to allow anyone who wants to to chime in whenever they wish.

The two questions that have occurred to me as I've read the replies are:
1) How could the structure be improved?
2) How could the comedy be improved?

We all know comedy is a hit and miss genre where it works for some and not others, but a lot of people have indicated the comedy here to be a big miss. I'm curious as to how people think it went wrong. This is not the place to say "it wasn't funny." You gotta justify yourself.

And structure. This definitely has a stream of consciousness feel to it, but if we tried to structure it more traditionally, what would be Gabe's life-changing event? Is it in the script? What actions should belong to Gabe instead of someone else?

Note that these are not as much for the author, but more for us to learn from each other and the script.

Jeff, I watch loads of movies on DVD but only go to the cinema if it is something I really want to see. I only go to the cinema a dozen times a year, if that, to see films I've been waiting for months to see (like the Dark Knight) but on DVD, I watch any type of film, even musicals, romantic comedies or really cheap horror movies I just know are going to be terrible.  

While this movie would not make me rush out to a cinema, I do like "talking heads" movies when the dialogue is great, in this case, it is. While I still think it drags on a bit, it does have its moments. I would be interested in seeing if I would laugh more at this on screen than I did reading it.

I watch loads of movies on DISH movie channels, but only ones I'm interested in.  I go to the theater 30-50 times/year, but only rent DVD's when a movie is out that I won't get to see on any movie channels.

To me, the cost of renting a "new" DVD ($4.99 + tax), isn't worth it, compared to seeing a movie on the big screen for a few dollars more (matinee price).  Therefor, if I want to see a movie, it'll most likely be at the theater.  DVD's are for foriegn releases or DTV's, IMO.

Call me crazy...

OK George, I'll address your question(s).

Structure - I'm not going to knock the structure of this script, because I don't believe its lack of structure is its problem.  I think the problems for me are based on 3 things...

1)  Lack of action - not just out and out action, but movement, change of scenery, anything!  I may be off on this, but from what I remember, just about every single scene just has a few people sitting around chatting, with silence and nothing happening around them.  It doesn't help that the settings are so bland, and uninteresting, and the dialogue dosen't go anywhere.

2)   Lack of story - As many have said, this has a feel of a bunch of skits thrown together with a dream scene sandwiched between them, each and every time.  I never felt anything based on Gabe's writer's block, his relationship with Jill, or any of the characters because no one really had anything going on or happening to them.

3)  Lack of a satisfying ending - I base alot on endings, and this one did not deliver at all.  As I noted earlier, Shelton did a good job with tying everything up, but it just sort of ended with a wimper, and I don't see the meaning of it all.

As for how the humor could be funnier...that's obviously a tough question and highly personal.  I'd say that there weren't enough attempts at humor for a movie that will live or die based on how funny it is.  I also don't think there were any big, over the top attempts either.

All genres of movies will have a "set piece" scene or the like, that is supposed to be a sure fire success.  Whether it's a big kill scene in a horror flick, or a cry your eyes out situation in a romance, there's always something.  I didn't see anything here that I would say "went for it".  I guess the only thing that even comes close were the dream scenes, but for me, as I've said already, these didn't work at all.

OK, how's that?

Quoted from Dreamscale Sandra, you say you want to see this on the screen, but haven't you said many times that you rarely ever see movies?  Are you saying of all the scripts you read, this is the one you most want to see?  I find that amazing...and odd.

I never said that: Of all the scripts I read, this is the one I'd most want to see.

As a matter of fact, I don't think I'd say that about any script because that to me is like saying blue or purple or red is my favorite color. I don't have a favorite color. I have favorites at particular times, yes, but not an overall favorite and so it is with scripts.

I did say that I'd love to see this on screen and I would.

It is correct that I haven't watched a lot of movies in my life. Now, when I go looking to watch films, it's really quite an adventure. Yes, I've seen some movies, but no where near the amount that some of our die hards here on simplyscripts have, or even people like my husband who just love watching movies a whole lot.

Now the question is why I hadn't spent my life watching a lot of movies in my younger days. Well, for one, I was always working very hard physically and then afterwards, I'd like to do old fashioned things like crochet blankets, read, and talk to people.

I had a hard time converting to the idea of just flicking on the television randomly and popping in a video cassette back in the days before DVDs. I thought you needed to make a big deal about it. You know, close the curtains, dim the lights, make popcorn. (Mike's probably got a comment brewing now  ;D)  But I really did think and say to my husband, "What's the matter with you?! You don't do it that way. It loses all its mystique!"

Watching movies was a "big event" to me. It still is and although I am drawn into shows my husband is watching at random times, when I "choose" to watch a movie, I still like to plan it out, make tea, shut down all work that's in process on the computer, have things tidy and sink into it like that.

I know it would seem odd to many people to enjoy movies the way I do. My middle child, my daughter Lindsay, is like me in that way. She often complains that when she buys a series on DVD and shares it to watch "with" Dad or "with" her younger sister, Charlene, they often "keep" watching and she wants to save it and watch a little at a time not all in one marathon run days at a time. And that it's more fun to watch "with" someone then alone.

For me, it's as much about the film as it is watching it "with" someone else. I'm the one you wouldn't want to go to see a movie with because I would want to chat "with" you about it.  ;D

... which is probably why I love the chatty dialogue because I've had that kind of dialogue (minus the swears) with friends and like they say, truth is stranger than fiction.

I think Phil said that where he's from, people don't all start talking with each other for no reason, but he also said, it might be because of where he's from.  He's right. It depends on where you're from. Despite that though, it is art; not reality.

But it does have parts of reality built in such as in this:

BARB
Jack’s Jack. He knows everybody.

GABE
You think he’s in with them?

BARB
I don’t think he’s in in, but it
wouldn’t surprise me if they owed
him a favor or two, or vice versa.

This is very much like people are. Always wanting to know someone else's business. And building possibilities from what they see on the surface. Like the car salesmen who they thought were mafia.

Part of the funniness is coming from what is going on in their heads. Like the eye-patch idea. Of course everyone knows that a good villain outta have an eye patch.

Sandra

Quoted from George Willson We all know comedy is a hit and miss genre where it works for some and not others, but a lot of people have indicated the comedy here to be a big miss. I'm curious as to how people think it went wrong. This is not the place to say "it wasn't funny." You gotta justify yourself.

Asking us to justify ourselves when we say that something isn't funny isn't fair, George.  For us to justify such a statement would require us to go through a script (I'm speaking generally and not referring to C&I) joke by joke.  Am I supposed to go into the timing of the joke?  How well it was slipped into the conversation?  How ell it worked with the story?

If I think a script isn't funny, it's because it didn't make me laugh.  Maybe I think a script is so unfunny that I may not know where the jokes are.


Phil

For me, I watch movies anywhere and anytime. I have several piled onto my iPod. I get them from Blockbuster (which alleviates the $4.99 issue and converts it to roughly a dollar a piece based on what I pay for it. I also get movies from the local library to supplement that. I haven't been to the cinema in some time.

I watch probably 250 movies a year that I've never seen before. That's the ones I've never seen, so add to that the ones I've rewatched here and there, and you'll find I see a lot of movies.

I will watch ANYTHING if it looks interesting, if it's a sequel (I've seen Pulse 3, most recently), if it was directed or written by or has an actor I'm interested in, or even if the cover art is pretty. Would I watch this? Well, yeah, it's a Shelton. why wouldn't I?

Quoted from dogglebe Asking us to justify ourselves when we say that something isn't funny isn't fair, George.  For us to justify such a statement would require us to go through a script (I'm speaking generally and not referring to C&I) joke by joke.  Am I supposed to go into the timing of the joke?  How well it was slipped into the conversation?  How ell it worked with the story? If I think a script isn't funny, it's because it didn't make me laugh.  Maybe I think a script is so unfunny that I may not know where the jokes are.

Still, that's an explanation, Phil. You don't have to go through it joke by joke, but there's likely a general reason why it wasn't funny. Was the timing generally off? Was the type of humor just not your thing? The questions you ask are good ones, but no one would expect you to detail every joke. If it were me, I'd be curious from a general standpoint where I went wrong, and it couldn't hurt to pick one to say why you felt it didn't work. Not all of them, but maybe one.

And for what it's worth, I understand this script was once in drama and Mike got it moved to comedy. How does it work as a drama?

Quoted from George Willson Still, that's an explanation, Phil. You don't have to go through it joke by joke, but there's likely a general reason why it wasn't funny. Was the timing generally off? Was the type of humor just not your thing? The questions you ask are good ones, but no one would expect you to detail every joke. If it were me, I'd be curious from a general standpoint where I went wrong, and it couldn't hurt to pick one to say why you felt it didn't work. Not all of them, but maybe one.

This conversation comes up every so often (three or four times a year, maybe).  Someone posts what they think is a comedy and others don't get it.  I read one script, once, that I didn't know was a comedy.  Was that my fault?  Hell no.  It was the writer's for writing what he thought was funny, but not on a wide scale for others.

Quoted from George Willson And for what it's worth, I understand this script was once in drama and Mike got it moved to comedy. How does it work as a drama?

When I read it, I figured it was a light drama, or a dramedy.  I could see where the jokes were, but I didn't they they were funny for the most part.


Phil

Quoted from George Willson And for what it's worth, I understand this script was once in drama and Mike got it moved to comedy. How does it work as a drama?

I'd say this totally fails as a drama.  Regardless of whether or not you think the jokes are funny, you have to admit that they're in the script.  An unfunny comedy is still a comedy.  

There's nothing dramatic about this whatsoever, though.  Nobody grows as a character...they simply are.  None of the situations are serious enough to work in a dramatic context, either.  Perhaps some of them could be (Del's lack of customers, Lily's indentured servitude, Franklin's OCD), but they aren't played that way.  They're played for laughs, and don't really delve into the emotional level.

Personally, I think trying to make it more dramatic would be a bad thing.  It's much closer to working as a comedy than a drama, imo.

However, this could be the thing that's a little off about it...after all, even the lowest brow teen comedies have a dramatic angle in them somewhere.  The closest thing in C&I is at the ending, where Gabe realizes he wants to make his book about the people he's met.  A lot of people have commented on how this doesn't work for them, though, since it comes out of nowhere.  I agree with that.  You need the proper buildup to have an actual dramatic moment, and it just falls flat for me.  It reminds me of the old cartoons where one of the good guy flunkies does something wrong and creates a problem.  The hero rescues them from the situation and they've learned their lesson, which they share with the kids at home.

Comedy is hard to do. One reason I hate writing it. What works for some never works for everyone else. It also seems to depend completely where on this planet the person reading or watching lives. I've even had stuff that was very disliked by people in the US while people in the UK for example thought it was great fun. Not to mention  other countries/cultures as well. I doubt some of the swedish stuff I laugh at would work here.

Anyway, whether or not this was hilarious or not to people here, it was definitely a comedy rather than drama, IMHLO of course.  :-)

I totally see this as a stage play.  Movable rotating sets, working with spots on different locations of the stage.

A series of vignettes loosely tied together by the characters as they intermingled.  The pacing reminded me of Coffee and Cigarettes, but I liked this much better.

Since it is character driven, I will focus on the characters:

Gabe - a normal lead character.  Deep, brainy, troubled and driven.  A keen observer who can still be amazed by things around him.  fairly standard.  I liked him ok.

Cam - I didn't like him.  His 'obsessions' seemed a little forced.  Sex, Combs.  He reminded me of Joey Wheeler in Yu-Gi-Oh.

Jack - He's the guy who so often appears in a story.  Larger than life and sweeps everyone along in his wake.  I am not sure if I liked him or not.

Lily - The Goddess of our heroes journey.  She's okay, but not grabbing.  Reminds me of a girl I dated.  Would be willing to take up with someone and promise to be a stripper to get where she wants to go, but then denies it to high heaven.

Del - Mel from Alice?

Barb - World wise and weary black waitress.  She was okay, but no surprises in her.

Yago - His name rings too close to Ya-yo from Get Shorty.  The switchblade comb was quirky, but he had no special traits.

The 3 car salesmen -  The 'bang, your dead' line, and uproarious laughter was dead giveaway of what they were.  It was no surprise when they showed up to take out Yago.

Bum - I liked him a bunch.

Franklin - My favorite.  Definitely my favorite.  I'm not OC, but I sympathized with the poor guy.

Now, I liked Gabe's dream sequences, but 45 minutes for Del to sit there watching him daydream seems like a long time.  Would Del just sit there that long?  I don't know, but it seemed like it was stretching it a bit.

Gabe's feelings for Jill seemed well spelled out to me, or he wouldn't be having the torments he is having.  She's his 'Ex', so he must have been with her for some reason at some point, and now that he's not, he can't write, and has waking nightmares about her death all the time.  I felt you nailed that one.

Jack had to be a gangster.  Everything screamed it, especially his penchant for the Rat Pack routine.  He's The Chairman of the Board!

Now, the characters would be perfectly well played bigger than life in a stage play.  To me, that's where this would work best.  I especially would love to see the actors in a spotlight, pretending to ride a bike together.  That would be great fun.  Also, having the spot come on Franklin in the restroom as he unravels would be terrific!

I read this script and loved it. Actually, I may sound a bit dim here, but is the being produced referring to my efforts or of a production company? Either way, it's all good.

If it's about my efforts I can give you guys a quick update and why I want to make the film. If it's been picked up by someone else, then once again congrats Mike.

This is something else about the script (and I see this a lot) that irked me:

Quoted Text INT. COFFEE SHOP - DAY Gabe stands in the doorway of the coffee shop. There’s a cook, DEL, 35 in the kitchen area, a waitress, BARB, 48, standing at the counter, and a man and woman, KEITH and VALERIE, both 23, sitting in a booth on the far side.

This description is on page 6 of the script.  Keith and Barb, however, aren't referred to until page 7.  And Del isn't revealed until page 16.  Characters should be introduced when they come into the story and not part of some list.


Phil

But Phil, when Gabe enters the shop, he (and the audience) would see these people. Even though they don't say anything until some pages later, the camera will spot a series of people in this restaurant. There are two choices. You can do the list as Mike did, or you can describe some general people: a cook of 35, a waitress of 48, without using the names. Are you preferring the general descriptions and then hitting us with the names when they speak?

You could/should describe it like so:

INT.  DINER

Gabe steps through the door and looks around. The establishment is simple and quaint, with a few customers scattered about.

BARB (48 ) a rotund waitress looks up at him.

                   BARB
     Any spot's good, honey.


As the other characters become relevmnt, you should introduce them.  Del wasn in a completely different rom, presumably unsen, with the scene began.


Phil

I would have to agree with Phil in his example(s).  Especially the part about Del being OS in the kitchen...no reason to intro everyone at once unless they're all together.

BUT...I don't see this as a huge problem or the reason why it doesn't work for some of us.

What are we supposed to be discussing at this point or have we gone to a free for all?  Are we on track or way off track?

Disclaimer: I know Mike Shelton. I've only signed up at this site because he told me his script was getting reviewed.

I'm not to going to comment on the quality of the writing because, well, I'm biased.

I did want to post that dogglebe is giving horrible advice.  If your character is in the scene you name them.  

If you don't name them you chance screwing up the AD and the call sheet.  If you have a character only as WOMAN, 20s, someone is going to list the character on the call sheet as that and they're going to find an extra.  Then, when they're getting ready to shoot someone is going to realize that it's VAL.  And Val might be taking a three day weekend on the opposite coast because she's been cleared.  Then the director flips out, screams at everyone and time is wasted trying to find a work around.

As far as DEL.  I just assumed it was one of those open kitchen diners since he was named as being in the scene.

Quoted from dogglebe This is something else about the script (and I see this a lot) that irked me: This description is on page 6 of the script.  Keith and Barb, however, aren't referred to until page 7.  And Del isn't revealed until page 16.  Characters should be introduced when they come into the story and not part of some list. Phil

You're a keener here. When I had read this, I thought something was wrong, but I didn't stop to think long enough what it was. I guess I should mention that I did stick at this spot for a moment, but I thought it was because a lot of people were being introduced in one go.

Generally speaking, for me at least, when a group of characters are being introduced, I think it really helps to put out a defining element that helps with the read. But it must be true to the character and not something just tacked on.

If they are just supporting characters, it's not quite as important what the defining feature or element is, but it still helps with the read; so I think I do understand what people are saying about not picturing Jill etc. From my side however, because I always read at more of an emotional level than a visual level, I pick up those elements and that's where I think this script is so strong.

For instance: Bum could be any bum, we get the archetype; same with Barb, same with the nighttime lounge singer, Jack-- all archetypes, or stereotypes if you want to call them that.

I'm picking up on that aspect more than specific visual features. Still, introductions are touchy things. When they're nailed they're wonderful. But when they're just short for the sake of shortness they can be very dry to read and you just feel like stopping a read.

Regarding the intros on page 6, I think the job is done, but I always get a little stuck when several names and ages come at me in one paragraph.

Sandra

Quoted from Lakewood Disclaimer: I know Mike Shelton. I've only signed up at this site because he told me his script was getting reviewed. I'm not to going to comment on the quality of the writing because, well, I'm biased. I did want to post that dogglebe is giving horrible advice.  If your character is in the scene you name them.   If you don't name them you chance screwing up the AD and the call sheet.  If you have a character only as WOMAN, 20s, someone is going to list the character on the call sheet as that and they're going to find an extra.  Then, when they're getting ready to shoot someone is going to realize that it's VAL.  And Val might be taking a three day weekend on the opposite coast because she's been cleared.  Then the director flips out, screams at everyone and time is wasted trying to find a work around. As far as DEL.  I just assumed it was one of those open kitchen diners since he was named as being in the scene.

This is an interesting discussion at this point because here we get into one of the differences between a novel and script. In a novel, you'd be in Gabe's point of view and therefore he'd only know these people as strangers in their roles. He might see the cook in the kitchen I should note through the serving window if it's that style of coffee shop.

The thing is, the characters are here in the scene and need their intros somehow someway. My approach, due to reasons in my last post, would be to try and arrange it so that Gabe's point of view is taken care of with "the customers and staff" written up generally in the description of his point of view and then to zero in with proper names and ages so as not to mess things up for production purposes.

Again, the role of the writer is tricky because we need to figure out the best way to tell/show the story, but at the same time not make it right technically, but boring to read.

Because Mike has strong dialogue, any slip here is easily overlooked.

Sandra

I've been thinking about why the comedy didn't work for me. The script is filled with unusual characters but only the germaphobe gets in a real wacky situation that you could actually see happening to someone. This was the only part I was laughing out loud at.

No other characters get themselves in situations like that. Bum just sits there. The rest just talk. I think more scenes like this would be needed.

When I read the script, there was never a doubt in my mind what was intended with that scene. They way it was done did not slow me down nor did it confuse me in any way. I totally agree that any character who has a reoccuring (sp) role needs proper introduction as soon as we see them.

OK, guys and gals, just to play Devil's Advocate here, a couple things...

First off, this is a Spec script, right?  This is not a shooting script, so the kinds of things that Lakeside is mentioning, shouldn't really be an issue at this point.

What if this diner was populated with 15 people, all of whom come into the story at one time or another?  You're not going to intro them all at once, unless they're all going to be doing or saying something right away.

As for Del, I would imagine that he's in the kitchen, out of sight unless he comes up front.  If he doesn't do literally anything, why intro him 10 pages early?

Again, I think this sort of stuff is the least of the problems here and it's kind of funny how we tend to get stuck on a tangent for no reason.

What you mean we, kemosabe?  

Does Del rent his shoes, or lease with an option to buy?

YES!  I would definitely mention what his shoes look like, and I'd make sure that every article of clothing that every single charcter is weaing is spelled out completely, including whether or not they're wearing underwear!

Kidding, obviously.

The "we" comment is a generality.  "We" being the people that are having this "discussion.  I didn't bring this up.  Phil and George started in on it, and I threw in my $.18 worth.

First off, Welcome to Lakewood.  It doesn't matter that you know Mike you're still welcome in the discussion.

Next, the introduction issue, seems awfully format-oriented an issue to me and not really the sort of thing we usually encourage in Script Club.  But since we are discussing it, characters should be introduced when they become relevant.  Obviously Mike considered them relevant at the point he introduced them.

Lastly, I think we are talking about characters so...

The characters were pretty consistent and seemed to have separate voices.  However, none of them grew very much during the course of the script so there really wasn't any arc to capture our emotional involvement.  I suppose we feel a bit for Gabe but he's so weak that it's a little difficult to get too involved with him.  He is definitely the protag though.

I'm not sure if I said this already but Jack Amsterdam was my biggest disappointment in this script - I don't know if this is because I read The Swinging Sounds or not but I found Jack A to be annoying and obnoxious in this script.  He completely overpowers the rest of the characters.  

I thought this the first time I read this script and I brought this up to Mike then.  Mike knows this character much better than the other characters and as such Jack is written with a certain amount of confidence that the others don't have.  This causes the script to be unbalanced toward Jack.  

My suggestion then and my suggestion now is to rewrite this script without the Jack Amsterdam character. Let Gabe be the hero he is supposed to be. And I understand the whole Gabe and Cam are supposed to be replaced by Jack and Yago as hero and villain - but I don't like it as a story and I think it could be so much better if Gabe solved the problem on his own.

Quoted from Dreamscale OK, guys and gals, just to play Devil's Advocate here, a couple things... First off, this is a Spec script, right?  This is not a shooting script, so the kinds of things that Lakeside is mentioning, shouldn't really be an issue at this point. What if this diner was populated with 15 people, all of whom come into the story at one time or another?  You're not going to intro them all at once, unless they're all going to be doing or saying something right away. As for Del, I would imagine that he's in the kitchen, out of sight unless he comes up front.  If he doesn't do literally anything, why intro him 10 pages early? Again, I think this sort of stuff is the least of the problems here and it's kind of funny how we tend to get stuck on a tangent for no reason.

Yes and no...

Even though it's on spec, I still think we need to consider the clarity of intros.

Re: Gabe's point of view as he enters

I was thinking too that if there were a lot of traffic then just "customers" would be good at first.

It's not a tangent IMHO, (I don't even think the rented shoes in The Strangers thread was a tangent) but what do I know... I used to hang out 'till 4 am at Dennys when I was young.  ;D

If Mike had the time and space and really wanted to, I'm sure he could have milked the intros here for all they were worth and instead of having Barb, 48 standing, and Keith and Valerie, both 23, sitting on the far side he might have had,

Barb the waitress, 48, sits and gabs with Keith and Valerie, both 20s and Del, the owner and cook who brushes past Gabe, shushing him, sneaks behind Barb and scares the daylights out of her.

The reason I use this as an example is that it just brings a little more to the sitting/standing thing and brings it to life a little more.

Sandra

I agree Sandra. More action doesn't have to be big action. It can also be subtle little things that people do to define character and such. I think that's why most of us remember Franklin and find him most interesting. Even though he was stuck in the bathroom we learn quite a bit about him in the little weird things he did.

Sandra, I also agree with you, and I commented on this earlier, in a different way.

When I said 1 of the biggest issues wth this script was its lack of action, I meant exactly what you said and what Pia agreed with.  Action of any kind is what's missing here.  No one seems to do anything other than chat, while standing or sitting.  Anything at all, like you mentioned in your example would help give some life to the characters and the script as well.

Come to think of it, I have no clue who the couple is sitting in the diner in the beginning.  Do they do anything?  Do they have any relavence here?  I can't for the life of me remember anything about them or who they are.

Quoted from Lakewood I did want to post that dogglebe is giving horrible advice.  If your character is in the scene you name them.   If you don't name them you chance screwing up the AD and the call sheet.  If you have a character only as WOMAN, 20s, someone is going to list the character on the call sheet as that and they're going to find an extra.  Then, when they're getting ready to shoot someone is going to realize that it's VAL.  And Val might be taking a three day weekend on the opposite coast because she's been cleared.  Then the director flips out, screams at everyone and time is wasted trying to find a work around.

I didn't say not to list them.  I list them when they become relevent.  Scene a scene like this:

EXT.  BUS -DAY.

BOB (20), GERRY (26), STAN (25), JOANNE (15), FRED (12), MARY (25) and CARL (15) sit in the moving bus.

                BOB
       blahblahblahblah

                GERRY
       blahblahblahblah

                BOB
       blahblahblahblah

                GERRY
       blahblahblahblah

                BOB
       blahblahblahblah

                GERRY
       blahblahblahblah

(two pages later)

                BOB
       blahblahblahblah

Stan steps over to the two.

                STAN
       blahblahblahblah

                GERRY
       blahblahblahblah

                BOB
       blahblahblahblah

                GERRY
       blahblahblahblah



When you list all the characters together, the reader is overloaded with names and they don't stick as well.  And all the names would still show up on the call sheets if they're done right.

Quoted from Lakewood As far as DEL.  I just assumed it was one of those open kitchen diners since he was named as being in the scene.

But he wasn't relevent until you saw him cutting the onions.  And, personally, I didn't see an open kitchen diner.  When you first saw him in the intro, what did you see him doing?


Phil

Yeah, and that onion cutting scene was HUGE!  I remember almost crying ,myself from the mere thought of it...

Kidding!! Seriously...just kidding..but couldn't help myself.

Phil,

Formatting issues are irrelevant to the philosophies behind the script club.  If you want to bring up formatting issues then please bring them up in the original script thread. Please use this thread to discuss content, story and, well, you can see the topics that are valid in the first post.

Cheers.  

The hope with the Script Club is that we find scripts that really don't have those issues, and even if they do, formatting is the easiest thing to deal with.

Really, I think we've hit all the topics and discussed them to death at this point. I think we can invite Mike in for his take on all this and see if we have anything more to add, or whether the horse is dead.

Hi George, This week has been difficult for me with time but was planning to join in the conversation this weekend, am about halfway through and will contribute something sometime tomorrow.

Not sure this is quite dead yet.

Quoted from George Willson The hope with the Script Club is that we find scripts that really don't have those issues, and even if they do, formatting is the easiest thing to deal with. Really, I think we've hit all the topics and discussed them to death at this point. I think we can invite Mike in for his take on all this and see if we have anything more to add, or whether the horse is dead.

Actually George if you look at the history of the Script Club it came out of a thread called "Breaking the Rules".  I know you weren't around when this started so I don't expect you to know this but the reason we started doing it was to examine scripts without being bogged down by formatting issues or even structure issues.  Formatting discussions were banned from the original Script Club threads.  It isn't that we look for scripts that don't have those issues, its that we don't discuss those issue (those issues are for the normal script threads and there is no reason to discuss them here).  

As far as ending the discussion I don't think people were even aware we went on beyond characters.   Plus there are still people who haven't read it yet.

Cheers,

Michael    

I don't think we're dead here already...are we?  I don't think we really have stuck on course at all, and maybe missed a bunch of things that Mike's script actually succeeded in.  And...alot of people that voted haven't said Jackshit yet.  Maybe, like GM, they haven't finished yet. Let's give it some more time?

Cool?

In reference to my previous post which is spawned a strange "relevancy" issue about character.  Characters are relevant when the camera sees them and you have to pay the actor to be there.  If you're not a good enough writer to physically place and name a handful of people all at the same time then why bother to write in a medium that lends itself to ensemble casts.  Afraid of confusing the reader?  If you're a good writer you won't.

I think Mike does a nice job with the single room setting and a pretty big cast.  You meet four people when Gabe walks in the door.  There is a nice moment where he walks in and the waitress waves her hand and then everything is in motion.  Everything means the next part of the story, Gabe and the new characters you see in the foreground and the background throughout a lot of scenes.  From their introductions the new characters are physically a part of the story. Mike's secure enough in his writing that he knows the reader is going to stay with him long enough to find out more about the new characters and how their stories parallel and tie in to Gabe's.

Hmmm...uhhh...I'm going to wait for someone else to comment here on this.

Sounds like the tone is changing here.

The Sc always brings up something that get people fired up...

Don't think the tone is changing Jeff... but I'm waiting to see where it's going. It does seem Lakewood knows something about the industry though...

I don't have a comment in regard to Lakewood, but I am thinking about commercial appeal. I just read the first page again, and as we all know, the first few pages are very important when a script being picked by a script reader.

The first 3 things I picked up from the first page is that a girl got killed by a bus, a guy is a writer, and the bus bit is a dream.

The bus: It's been overdone I think, in movies, in general. It's always at the end of those spoof movies like Scary Movie, Epic Movie, and whatever other shit ones there are out there. When I read that for the first time in the script, it brought down the value straight away.

The writer: Easy to write about, as the writer of the script is... well a writer. Sorta cheating in a way... that sounds harsh doesn't it? It's a bit too easy in my opinion. It's taking "write what you know about" to the next level.

The dream: Cliche. It's not nearly as bad as having a whole epic story, and then the end being "and then I woke up", but it's still a dream, therefore associated with that ("and then I woke up").

What I'm trying to say is that nothing stands out. It's all pretty ordinary. I wouldn't stop reading because I thought the first page was ordinary, but someone who reads scripts all day, everyday for a living, looking for that outstanding one, might not give this the chance it should get.

Gee I babble.... Thoughts?

Quoted from Lakewood In reference to my previous post which is spawned a strange "relevancy" issue about character.  Characters are relevant when the camera sees them and you have to pay the actor to be there.  If you're not a good enough writer to physically place and name a handful of people all at the same time then why bother to write in a medium that lends itself to ensemble casts.  Afraid of confusing the reader?  If you're a good writer you won't.

You’re right.

Quoted from Lakewood I think Mike does a nice job with the single room setting and a pretty big cast.  You meet four people when Gabe walks in the door.  There is a nice moment where he walks in and the waitress waves her hand and then everything is in motion.

I don’t think Mike did the best job he could have setting up the scene. He basically just gave a rundown of the characters and went on from there. Del is there but it’s several pages before he ever really relates to the story in any way.

I think Mike could have included him in small ways prior to where he currently first speaks. He could have interacted with Barb when we first see him. Del could have asked Barb what Gabe’s order was. When Barb told him Gabe just wanted coffee, Del could have reacted with disappointment over his lagging food sales. This would have set up their characters and prepared them for things to come.

I think the way Mike did it is okay - but just okay. It could have been better. It could have been more dynamic.


Breanne

Quoted from Breanne Mattson I don’t think Mike did the best job he could have setting up the scene. He basically just gave a rundown of the characters and went on from there. Del is there but it’s several pages before he ever really relates to the story in any way.

Exactly what I'm talking about.  Listing names isn't the same as actually introducing the character doing something.  If there's an open window to the kitchen, as Lakewood imagined, then show him through the window.  Showing Del crying like a baby, and then later show that he's crying because he's cutting up onions.

A character roll call doesn't do it.


Phil

...or have Del in a 12 minute scene cutting onions and getting that daily special of meatloaf ready. He could also skip and whistle while all this "action" is taking place.  At about teh 6 minute mark, intro Barb as she wacthes coffee brew.  The bubbling coffee would be quite fascinating.

As things do seem to be winding down, and people have talked about the beginning, I thought I'd ask what people thought of the final section and ending. As Mort said in Secret Window, "the only thing that matters is the ending." Was it satisfying enough? Were things left unresolved?

For me, I don't think having Gabe unconcious works. It diminshes his status as the protag even more.

I'm really sorry I haven't gotten into this review...new job and crazy evenings going on in my life...but I'll sure try to jump in soon and provide my feelings about the screenplay.  

I don't want to be swayed by the posts here, so most likely I will give a clean review from my own "pee brain" :) then I'll see where my thoughts fit in. ;)

~m~

I thought the ending was the worst part. Very, very abrupt to say the least. Some people have touched on Jack stealing the movie from Gabe and how it didn't work for them and I'd have to agree.

The mafia bit was a nice touch, though, I will admit that. Everything did come together well but it still didn't work for me. The main reason being the whole movie is about Gabe trying to overcome writers block, he goes to a coffee shop and less than 12 hours later, he is cured because he met a few strangers.

And I think what may need to happen at the end is that Gabe needs to use his writing in a way that corrects the situation.  He should be directing Jack about what needs to be done based on a story he concocts to save the day.

I actually like that idea - Gabe uses his rejuvinated writing abilities to sort everything out. After all, although in the end he decides his Great American Novel has to be real, he's part of the detective/thriller story he's been trying to write since before the film began! So it might be nice if he puts that period of his struggle to rest by finishing the thriller story.

That would work much better having Gabe more involved in the ending. It was quite unrealistic when Yago showed up with the gun and Gabe just sat there with his pen and paper. I can't remember what he said to Jack but it didn't sound right anyway. If someone was standing outside a shop I was in with a gun, I'd be hiding behind something.

As I said earlier about the ending, Mike did a good job of wrapping everything up, but as others have said, the end came quite abrubptly.  I personally was not satisfied with the end, but it wasn't the weakest part for me.

When I finished reading, I thought to myself about what had just transpired, and I didn't have much to think about, as very little really happened.  I did find it a bit strange how Gabe and Cam walked out of the diner, leaving all his newest and bestest friends behind, and that was that.

What happened?  Well, we were told that Gabe had writer's block, and then we were told that he was cured after spending an entire day in a diner.  So what does that leave us with?  Exactly...nothing.

I think Cornetto is right about what Gabe has to do. I don't think however that the script needs an amazing ending. IMHO this is a low key relaxed feel kind of script and the ending should fit that and not overshadow the rest of the story.

I think that the ending works. It remains consistent with the tone of the piece and Del finally gets to actually cook.

If the low key atmosphere that has been prevalent suddenly changed in the end, it would seem forced IMHO.

Sandra

Yeah, I agree...the ending doesn't have to be anything big or different from the rest of the script.

Are you guys saying that the ending worked for you, then?

Quoted from Dreamscale Yeah, I agree...the ending doesn't have to be anything big or different from the rest of the script. Are you guys saying that the ending worked for you, then?

Could it have been better? Yes, I do think so.  How? I'm not sure. I do understand that things just sort themselves out rather than Gabe proactively "fixing" things.

Maybe one way the end could have a bit more bam is to have Jill show up for real.

Sandra

Sandra!  I think you're on to something.  I like that idea...alot!  Have Jill show up outisde as they leave..they see each other...eye contact...a smile...THE END!

Huh?  maybe?  I like it!

I like that too.   Maybe instead of hard feelings towards her, they get together again?  Am I off on the wrong track here?

No Pia, I don't think you're off at all.  I like that concept.  I totally like that concept!  It gives everything a much different feel...a feel I think the script is lacking.  It leaves us with a much better feeling, IMO, at least.

What does everybody else think of Sandra's great idea?

Nice job, Sandra!  Seriously.  I think you nailed it.

Quoted Text No Pia, I don't think you're off at all.  I like that concept.  I totally like that concept!  It gives everything a much different feel...a feel I think the script is lacking.  It leaves us with a much better feeling, IMO, at least. What does everybody else think of Sandra's great idea? Nice job, Sandra!  Seriously.  I think you nailed it.

It should end with Jill showing up, she locks eyes with Gabe. Tells him she wants to get back together. Gabe answers "Really? me too!". She runs towards Gabe and BAM!! she gets hit by a truck, Roll Credits.

Now thats an ending  ;D

Yaboy!!!!!  I thought of that as well, and I DO LIKE IT..but, I think that's going overboard for what this is.  That would make this rock IMO with that ending though.  Too crazy for this...????...What?

I LOVE that idea, but like we said earlier... it doesn't fit the tone of the rest of the script.

Anyone else?  We need more opinions!!!!  Yo!!!

I've been thinking about what you guys are saying about the ending. As I said before, I think we need to see Gabe and Jill interacting at one point, even if it's a flashback.

If she did turn up at the end of the script, them being together and going off happily into the sunset might be a tad too cliche...

Maybe (don't shoot me!) Jill can turn up at the end, and her body language shows she wants to get back with Gabe, but Gabe doesn't want her. He is over her. So his character arc is, he gets past his writers block, is able to write a book, and gets over the girl he loved.

OR:

She turns up. He is over her, but he is willing to give it another try.

You would need to show that Jill was controlling when they were together in the script, to give Gabe a reason not to be fully in love with her again.

Yeah, either one is good, Tommy.  I like 'em!

Quoted from Dreamscale Yeah, either one is good, Tommy.  I like 'em!

Me too. Too bad that my good ideas come in fragments and not in completely nailed scripts. Ah but that's the joy of the challenge in the work.

Sandra

Quoted from Dreamscale Yaboy!!!!!  I thought of that as well, and I DO LIKE IT..but, I think that's going overboard for what this is.  That would make this rock IMO with that ending though.  Too crazy for this...????...What?

I agree my idea does not really fit the tone of the rest of the script, but it would provide a LOL moment to end on.

I really do not know how else I would end it. As is I think the ending is pretty mediocre. In my eyes Gabe's problem is not solved because his book is looking to be pretty lame. The mobsters coming to finish off Yago was supposed to be a "Haha those car salesmen really were mobsters" moment but it does not work for me. I would have preferred if we saw the end of Yago when Jack punches him out.

I think this pretty slow paced comedy could use a big bang of a ending, I am not saying the one I proposed is the correct one as I just threw that out there off the top of my head, but I do not think the current ending finalizes the story enough.

I think somehow seeing Jill in-person at the end could be great, but I do not like the ideas of having them have some sort of serious meaningful moment. This is a comedy and her appearance has to bring one final MEMORABLE laugh that will finish this story up. I love Tommy's ideas if this was a drama but if this is really a comedy then I do not think they work.

I have to admit, I really like the Jill Splat ending.  I agree that it doesn't quite fit, but I think that makes it all the more hilarious.  Personally, I would show Jill approaching through the diner window while Gabe remarks that he just needs a good ending.  Then let her have it before anyone even notices her.  It would be even better if the bus driver had an eye patch.

I think a great ending can make a movie much more memorable, even if the rest of the movie wasn't.  Just like in A Boy and His Dog.  Plus that ending will probably leave people debating about whether the whole thing was just another of Gabe's daydreams.  Mess with their heads!

Escapist, if we went with that ending, that would be awesome! Have the busdriver look like Cam, or be Cam maybe. But as I said before, the whole bus thing is cliche and is used in shitty spoof movies. In this instance it could work quite well though...

My evil twin brother...we may just agree for a change.  I like that idea and your entire spin on it.  I think it would make this thing SOOOO much better.  It would also end everything with a great big BANG!!!

Nice!  

Finally got to finish this, sorry for joining in so belatedly but will try to add my thoughts to what has already been written. Excuse if I write a lot but I am off on travels tomorrow and not sure how much time I will get to come here this week.

First off, I liked it. It was a good script and an enjoyable read, it was not great, but good enough for me.

* I liked the characters, I thought Mike did a great job in giving us such distinct people, I liked Gabe and did actually buy into him - It would have actually been a much poorer script were I not invested in his character somewhat so it was important to get that right. You know, this probably sounds odd but this reminded me of The Lord Of The Rings in so many ways. We have the fellowship coming together in the coffee shop, then leaving on a quest. Jack is Gandalf, imparting his wisdom and guiding our party. Strange but it certainly gave me that feeling, and this is where things went wrong for me somewhat, the end. I am firmly in the camp that Jack really should not have ended up the hero (and wining the girl too by the sounds of it), It was Frodo's Gabe's quest and he should have really been the one who saved the day and won the girl.

It is strange because the last Shelton script I read (which was much better than this btw) I remember having a similar problem, the hero really does need to be the one who purposefully makes the decision and takes actions that sets up the climax. I thought Gabe just became far too passive and allowed Jack to take over. Don't get me wrong I actualy liked Jack and thought he played a good role in things but he should never have been allowed to just take over. I did actually wonder what Jack was actually doing there, what are his motives? What was he looking for? I would have thought that Gabe would have figured something out to get them out of the mess and at the same time probably exploit a weakness in Jack's character too.

Gabe had already met the car salesmen, why could they have not had a better scene at the beginning and make it that it is actually the car salesmen who owe Gabe the favour? He should be the one calling them, that might work better.

* Yes, I firmly agree that Jill should have shown up near the end, I was actually expecting it. Not sure she needs to take an active role in things, or even have any lines. But it would have been nice for Gabe to see her out of the window, maybe she is on a bus heading out of town or something. It would be symbolic then for her finally leaving his life and his dreams. In fact why not have the greasy guy try to run from the car salesmen and is killed by a bus?  as the bus drives off then Gabe sees her on it - great callback and reversal in one short scene.

* I hate the title, not good at all to be honest. Far too wishy washy, I would have thought just "Coffee" would be better.

* I loved much of the dialogue, It is a Mike Shelton script after all, the dialogue should be good. Although again it was not his strongest, there were some moments that just did not work for me. The scene where Gabe meets Lilly for example and all that talk about Pittsburg, I thought that sucked balls to be honest . Yes it was a perfect example of real talk, it is exactly how I might speak to someone I have only just met. But is that good? Movie people are not supposed to talk like real people, every conversation should mean something, move forward the story, reveal something of importance. This was an example of probably 2-3 times in the script that I thought a conversation was banal. That scene in particular needs re-writing, I would have forgiven it maybe if it was funny, but it was not even that.

* I really do like character driven films, I watched Rachel Getting Married last week and is was similar in style to this in a way, very little in the way of plot but still managing to create tension and drama just by the characters interacting with each other. I don't think this was a bad job, although one could ague that Cam was a dick and really did not help on that front.

*Was this a comedy? I am not sure that is even debatable, If the writer says it is a comedy then it is. I didn't think so though, I think it would be a much better light hearted drama with Cam toned down a notch or two. Strange coming from Shelton who does write some great comedy, I think this missed the mark. This could possibly be compared to Pulp Fiction/Jackie Brown in style, I would certainly not call either of them a comedy but they are both quite farcical and certainly raise a few smiles.


Anyway, that is my two cents worth. It was alright really, I enjoyed reading it anyway.

Quoted from Tommyp Have the busdriver look like Cam, or be Cam maybe.

He would HAVE to wear an eyepatch! That ending would work SO much better in my opinion.

I think having Jill appear - either in what must now be called the Jillsplat ending or the less gory Jillgabewilltheywon'tthey form, would work really well. It'd give the close of the movie more of a definite sense of its characters having achieved something. Also, Cam said she wasn't coming back, so if she did I'd LOVE to see him have to admit he was wrong.

Quoted from Dreamscale What happened?  Well, we were told that Gabe had writer's block, and then we were told that he was cured after spending an entire day in a diner.  So what does that leave us with?  Exactly...nothing.

I didn't feel any urgency in Gabe getting over his block, so when he did, it had no impact for me.  Mike needs to show Gabe suffering with his block and why he needs to get over it.


Phil

I feel I should say more, but I'm out of things to say...I think everyone's covered everything in detail.

What else is left to talk about? And at what point can Mike jump in and start responding to our thoughts?

Quoted from dogglebe I didn't feel any urgency in Gabe getting over his block, so when he did, it had no impact for me.  Mike needs to show Gabe suffering with his block and why he needs to get over it. Phil

Uh, Phil, and what do you think all those dreams with Jill were about?

Quoted from mcornetto Uh, Phil, and what do you think all those dreams with Jill were about?

I wouldn't call it suffering.  Those daydreams were more of an inconvenience to me.


Phil

Just a suggestion. Why not do Hollywood scripts that are either in production or have sold for a good amount of $ so you'll learn more about what is selling and how it's improved along the way. I think your best clubs are when you do these type of critiques like, "I Wanna F*ck Your Sister." etc.

Quoted from trailertrashers Just a suggestion. Why not do Hollywood scripts that are either in production or have sold for a good amount of $ so you'll learn more about what is selling and how it's improved along the way. I think your best clubs are when you do these type of critiques like, "I Wanna F*ck Your Sister." etc.

We've done that one and the Strangers and some sci-fi that I can't remember the title of right now.

We alternate. Some people prefer Hollywood scripts and others prefer unproduced written by members here.

Quoted from mcornetto Actually George if you look at the history of the Script Club it came out of a thread called "Breaking the Rules".  I know you weren't around when this started so I don't expect you to know this but the reason we started doing it was to examine scripts without being bogged down by formatting issues or even structure issues.  Formatting discussions were banned from the original Script Club threads.  It isn't that we look for scripts that don't have those issues, its that we don't discuss those issue (those issues are for the normal script threads and there is no reason to discuss them here).   As far as ending the discussion I don't think people were even aware we went on beyond characters.   Plus there are still people who haven't read it yet.

I vaguely remember when the script club started, as I recall there being some discussion as to which board it should be on, and I agreed that the Screenwriting Class board was the best for it (I was the moderator for it then, too.)

This script club was more unstructured than the previous ones by request to see how it would go. There was no holding to specific topics or waiting to move on. It was simply someone bringing up a topic and then see where the topic led us. I haven't been leading the discussion any specific direction. Only trying to give an idea of what to talk about next when it seemed to be foundering.

I made my suggestion when the discussion seemed to be dying out. All of the topics had been touched, although I was not aware of who had or hadn't commented. Let me ask: where are we on the discussion?

I do like talking about the ending, since it's probably the most inportant aspect of any story. It'll be the last thing anyone remembers so it has to be satisfying. That's satisfying in the confines of the story you've told, and not ending it a certain way because you want to.

This script has a simple story that meanders its way to a simple ending. It was about writer's block and the ending had us moving past writer's block. For there to be more of an ending, I would think there'd have to be more of a story. Right?

And for choosing a script, I don't mind either at the end of the day. I like having the writer present, but there is value in reading something produced. It was talked around for awhile, and I did a poll to make the final decision (despite how pointless everyone insisted it was).

Quoted from Murphy * I hate the title, not good at all to be honest. Far too wishy washy, I would have thought just "Coffee" would be better.

I want to second this. The title, as it is now, is really offputting. I actually had to look up the title when I was finished reading the script because I forgot what it was. "Coffee" is more memorable and to the point. Good advice, Murphy.

In that case I think INSPIRATION would work even better. After all that's what Gabe is looking for. Coffee is just something they consume...

I agree Pia. "Coffee" by itself is blah. "Inspiration" is much better.

Quoted from Grandma Bear In that case I think INSPIRATION would work even better. After all that's what Gabe is looking for. Coffee is just something they consume...

Yes, but "Inspiration" makes the script sound more thought-provoking than it really is. Not everyone is looking for inspiration in this script, but everyone is drawn together because of a few cups of coffee.

I like the title.  I think it fits perfectly.

Also, I do not like the idea of Jill showing up at the end.  Cam and Gabe actually left the city, where I assume Jill is, to hopefully break Gabe from his constant thinking of her via bad dreams, which means they are no where near her.  So. . .the odds of her happening to wander out the the city to the same 'burb' (I assume), and actually to the very diner where Gabe had just happened to have had the final dream in his series of dreams which broke him of her 'memory' and freed him from his block, thus to go on to write the great American novel, would be too coincidental to be even possible no matter how far I could suspend my disbelief.

This ending discussion reminds me of Amadeus:

Salieri: I think you overestimate our dear Viennese, my friend. You know you didn't even give them a good bang at the end of songs, to let them know when to clap?

Mozart: I know, I know, maybe you should give me some lessons in that...  

Well if Jill does turn up at the end, it means that she still has feelings for Gabe. Which means she has been wanting to meet up and talk to him. Which could justify her turning up.

What if she rang him on his cell?

Cam:  Was that. . .

Gabe:  It was.  It was Jill.

Barb:  Well I'll be damned.

Boring...

It needs to...or should end on a high note.  It would really make an impact, I think.  As it is now, there is no impact at all, and when you look back on the "Story", for me at least, I'm left with a void for the most part.

Well, perhaps we could have Yago stagger in, bloody and bruised having escaped from the car salesmen, and just as he goes to shoot Gabe, he's shot from behind by Jill, who got there just in time to save Gabe and prove her undying love.

Less boring?

Quoted from steven8 Well, perhaps we could have Yago stagger in, bloody and bruised having escaped from the car salesmen, and just as he goes to shoot Gabe, he's shot from behind by Jill, who got there just in time to save Gabe and prove her undying love. Less boring?

I realize you're being sarcastic, but yes, that is significantly less boring.  Much better than the phone call, imo.  Of course, the real problem with that ending is that Yago would actually be aiming for Jack.  Why shoot Gabe when Jack's the one who caused his downfall?

Though I can hardly believe it myself, I completely agree with what Dreamscale had to say about the ending.  It's possible this is a sign of the Apocalypse.   ;D

Also, I agree with those who think the title could be improved.  Like the rest of the movie, the title isn't bad.  It just isn't great.  Maybe "Coffee and Characters" or "A Cup of Joes".  After all, he only really gets ideas for characters as opposed to a plot.

Quoted from escapist I realize you're being sarcastic, but yes, that is significantly less boring.  Much better than the phone call, imo.  Of course, the real problem with that ending is that Yago would actually be aiming for Jack.  Why shoot Gabe when Jack's the one who caused his downfall? Though I can hardly believe it myself, I completely agree with what Dreamscale had to say about the ending.  It's possible this is a sign of the Apocalypse.   ;D Also, I agree with those who think the title could be improved.  Like the rest of the movie, the title isn't bad.  It just isn't great.  Maybe "Coffee and Characters" or "A Cup of Joes".  After all, he only really gets ideas for characters as opposed to a plot.

This actually captures one of my problems with the ending - Gabe's not done a great deal to resolve the Yago plot, so he isn't really the main focus of the ending. By rights it should be Jack's. I think Gabe needs something to at least claim the ending for his own.

As for the title...I don't mind it. I actually quite like it. I can't think of a better one, anyway.

Quoted from JonnyBoy This actually captures one of my problems with the ending - Gabe's not done a great deal to resolve the Yago plot, so he isn't really the main focus of the ending. By rights it should be Jack's. I think Gabe needs something to at least claim the ending for his own.

IMHO, Gabe hasn't done much of anything in this script.  He's more of an observer in his own story than a participant.  Jack dealt with Yago.


Phil

But most of the time a writer just observes. Gabe went to that diner to find a story, and it seems Mike has figured out the writer personality. I think the trouble with Gabe resolving the Yago situation, though, is that the resolution is amusing, and Gabe wouldn't have the contacts to do it.

I do think the Yago subplot has the potential to be the adventure Gabe is looking for if he would take it, but would that be in the spirit of the story? Since Jack is the lead on the Yago issue, would it be more worthwhile to make him the main character and leave Gabe as the observer he is? Then again, that would give Mr. Jack Amsterdam the lead in two stories, and Mike said this Jack is quite different from the other one in personality (or at least I think he did...or someone did).

EDIT: I was thinking about the structure, and was there any point in this story that Gabe could just go home and forget about it? Did he actually have a life-changing event that forced him to move forward? I don't think he did. Maybe that's the biggest problem. He had nothing to lose. Sure he has to write something, but if he doesn't do that today, is his life over? No, he'll just do it tomorrow without really losing anything.

By my calculations, it looks like I can now respond, so I'm going to go ahead and chime in now.  

There's been a ton of comments here, which is great, but I'm probably going to miss some stuff that I had intended to respond to before as I go along, so please excuse me in advance if I end up all over the place.

Hopefully, the conversation will keep going for a little bit and not die off after the writer responds, as it has in previous script clubs.

As I read through the comments this past week, I saw instances where people said "If you intended to do this, if you intended to do that, you failed", so I'll start out with what my intentions were.

When I sat down to write this script nearly three years ago, my intentions were to end up with a final product that someone would find interesting enough to pick up and film.  That's it.  It was my intention then, and it is my intention now in everything I write (one script excluded).

As the discussion went on, I started to wonder if things were really going the way I had hoped.  When I offered this script up for the discussion, it was with the intention that those commenting would take a step back, look at it, and try to figure out what it was that caused it to get the attention it has.

Is it because it's cheap?  Yes, in a sense, but there's definitely got to be more to a script than whether or not it doesn't cost a lot to produce.  That much is obvious.

Is it because of the story?  Depends on who you talk to.  Many think there's not a story here at all, but there is.  It's just very much based in reality.  Which brings me to my next point.

Realism.  There are people who have called this script boring, and others who have called it brilliant, which I've always taken pleasure in.  It's not an easy feat to create something that gets such vastly different reactions.  Now, I'd prefer if people didn't think it boring, but I can live with that when so many others have been on the other side of the fence, and that's precisely the reason that I have never made any really extreme changes to this script.

Actually, the biggest change I can think of is changing Jack's last name.  When I inserted him into this script, I did it with the intention of portraying him as a real guy, opposed to his character in "Swingin' Sounds".  Ultimately, I think people who read both scripts had a hard time distinguishing the two, so Jack Amsterdam became Jack Bannister.

But, to get back to where I was regarding the trail of the discussion, a lot of suggestions were made that seemed like they were addressing what I should do to rewrite this.  My question is, why would I rewrite it?  

The only thing that would accomplish would be to make the script more of a show piece, and it's already doing quite well in that regard as it is.  It's definitely more beneficial for me to continue working on new specs and expanding my available library.  This is something I would recommend to others as well.  Rewrites are fine, but don't get caught working on the same project for years and years, because it can really screw you in the end.  Example:

Say you've been working hard on something for an extended period of time.  It's your first script, and you want to make sure it's as perfect as possible.  There's nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but when you take that script to market, there's a good chance that you could get this response. "Well, the story really isn't for me, but I like your writing.  What else have you got?"  It's right there that you're basically screwed, because you have nothing else.  I'm sort of going off track, but I think that's a good piece of advice.  Get something to a presentable level, and don't worry about pleasing everyone.

Now, back to the script itself.

The discussion as of late has gone the way of talking about the ending, and suggestions have been made that Jill should show up.  I've gotta admit, that makes absolutely no sense to me.  She's gone.  She doesn't live anywhere in the area, and it's just not feasible for her to pop up in the end.  I think it was Steven that agreed with me on this.

The title.  It's a play on the old saying "Coffee & Conversation".  He goes to a coffee shop in search of inspiration and finds it.  For me, it seems like a decent fit, but I catch a lot of crap over my titles most of the time anyway.

In regards to Gabe not fixing his own problem, this is something that can be argued.  There are some that say Jack unseats him as the hero in the story, which is true, but in a deeper sense, the only reason that that happens, is because Gabe "wrote" it that way.

Yes, he meets these people and they all become a part of his story, but why?  It's because he was able to take their personalities and mold them into something that fit within his novel.  Barb, the waitress that knows how to read people becomes the "informant", Lily, the indentured servant stripper becomes the damsel in distress, Franklin, the germophobe stuck in the bathroom becomes the reluctant prisoner, and Del, the cook who can't cook becomes a "Q" like character who makes these cool weapons (much like his specials) but people just aren't interested.  These are all things that Gabe conjured up without any explicit help, and in the end gets him over his writer's block.

I'll stop here for now, but will definitely be responding more as the conversation continues.

Thanks to all who took the time to read and participate.

EDIT: Forgot another thing I wanted to talk about.  The intro of characters when Gabe first arrives at the coffee shop.  I see nothing wrong with it.  When he enters, you can see every single one of those people.  Sure they don't come into play right away, but they're there, on camera.  Why would I not introduce a character when you first see them?  Am I supposed to put two MEN and two WOMEN, and then ultimately intro them later?  BARB, the first woman you saw.  No, not that one, the other one.  Yeah, her.  The waitress.  That seems like a total waste to me.

Quoted from Shelton Many think there's not a story here at all, but there is.  It's just very much based in reality.  Which brings me to my next point. Realism.

Actually, I didn't find the script to be all that realistic.  Sure, it's not like you had vampires hunting dinosaurs with lasers or anything, but the characters came off to me as a bit more cartoony than real.  More through their actions than their traits.

Totally agree with you on the reasons for not rewriting.  Plus, this one is already being made, right?  Even more reason not to mess with it.  Unless you're George Lucas.

Also, I would have appreciated the title much more if I had ever actually heard the expression "Coffee & Conversation".

Quoted from escapist Actually, I didn't find the script to be all that realistic.  Sure, it's not like you had vampires hunting dinosaurs with lasers or anything, but the characters came off to me as a bit more cartoony than real.  More through their actions than their traits.

If you think these characters are cartoony, you should check out some of my other scripts.  You'd probably hear circus music in your head after about 3 pages.  It's an interesting point, though, and I'm curious.  Did you have to suspend disbelief at all to buy into these people?

Quoted from escapist Also, I would have appreciated the title much more if I had ever actually heard the expression "Coffee & Conversation".

Yeah, I can agree with that.  It's definitely not something that everyone would be familiar with.

Quoted from Shelton It's an interesting point, though, and I'm curious.  Did you have to suspend disbelief at all to buy into these people?

To a certain extent, yes.  Some specific instances I can highlight would be:

Franklin getting trapped in the restroom.  Couldn't he scream for help?  Use his shoe to open the door?  If he's that OCD, would he really make the mistake of running out of wet wipes?

Yago coming back with a gun, in broad daylight.  That seems a little bit unbelievable.  He already failed in the head-on confrontation, and he seems like the type that would take an indirect approach in getting even.  Waiting until Lily's alone, calling in some support, etc.

Mostly I just read a bit of a happy-go-lucky cartoony vibe into the script.  Everything just felt too fun and casual to be real (Maybe my life is simply too bleak and dreary, though  ;)).  Granted this feel was certainly influenced by dream sequences, and might come across differently when filmed.

I really don't feel a need for this script to be hyper-realistic (obviously not, with the ending I proposed).  Just surprised you saw it that way.

Franklin could scream for help, sure, but that's one of those things where if you do it, you've got nothing.  Your story is over.  I think there are a lot of instances where someone could say that.  Bond villians for instance.  Why don't they just kill him?  Because if they did, there would be no more to the story, or the series for that matter.

How does someone use their shoe to open a door?  I think you'd have better luck if your hand was a hook.

People pull out guns in broad daylight.  It's not the most intelligent thing to do, but Yago's not exactly intelligent anyway.

The dream sequences, I can see.  You definitely have to give a little bit more into those, but they're daydreams.

Is it hyper-realistic?  No, I wouldn't say that.  I just think there's a fair amount of realism in it.  Everything that happens here is entirely possible.

Franklin wouldn't use his shoe to open the door. Too big a chance of him losing his balance trying to do it, and then he's really screwed. I can't see him taking the chance. As for not screaming...hell, he wouldn't want to look like an idiot. :P

Hey Mike, glad to see you've chimed in now. I agree that I hope we can continue this conversation for awhile, as other SC's just literally died one the author stepped in.

I did not find this realistic or believeable at all. Like Escapist said, it just didn't come across as something that was intended to be "real".  The mere fact that the vast majority of the script takes place over an entire day in a diner, tells me that these characters don't have a real life outside this story.  As you said, nothing is so over the top that it's completely unbelievable, but the feel I get from this is far from realistic.

You said that you don't like the endings we came up with, and you said that it was impossible because Jill doesn't live nearby, etc. How do we (or you) know that?  We don't know a single thing about Jill...not even what she's supposed to look like.  We also don't really know where this is taking place. I know it's not supposed to be "the big city", but it sure sounds "cityish" to me.  It's a diner with characters walking by outside, which sounds like a city to me.  You did mention Pittsburgh, I think, so I assumed somewhere in the midwest, but really couldn't pciture much in terms of proximity.

I do understand that sincie this is a done deal, you wouldn't want to mess with it.  Could you give us some background on what the deal is with this being "produced"?  Where in the process are you?  Will this show up on LifeTime as a movie of the week kind of thing?  Any talent cast already?  Who is Lakeside?

If I might comment on the characters' lives...

Gabe is a writer in some capacity, and he's doing his job. He can spend all day in a diner. Cam isn't there all day, nor is anyone else except (gasp!) the people who work there. The others come and go throughout because they do have other things to do.

Quoted from Dreamscale You said that you don't like the endings we came up with, and you said that it was impossible because Jill doesn't live nearby, etc. How do we (or you) know that?  We don't know a single thing about Jill...not even what she's supposed to look like.  W also don't really know where this is taking place. I know it's not supposed to be "the big city", but ti sure sounds "cityish" to me.  It's a diner with charcaters walking by outside, which sounds like a city to me.  You did mention Pittsburgh, I think, so I assumed somewhere in the midwest, but really couldn't pciture much in terms of proximity.

This is said in the script.  "She's gone, and we live here now."  Gabe and Cam moved away from the "big city" and Jill to this smaller city.  I never explicitly say where it is because it doesn't matter.  It could be Boise, ID, it could be Des Moines, IA.  It's just a small scale city.  It's the same reason I never gave overly in depth descriptions of the characters.  Whether or not Jill is a blond or brunette is irrelevant.  A case could be made over whether or not she's attractive, but there's got to be something to her if she keeps popping into Gabe's head.

I mentioned Pittsburgh, because that's where Jill is from, but she moved to this new place as well.

Quoted from Dreamscale I do understand that sicnie this is a done dealyou wouldn't want to mess with it.  Could you give us some backgroun on what the deal is with this being "produced"?  Where in the process are you?  Will this show up on LifeTime as a movie of the week kind of thing?  Any talent cast already?  Who is Lakeside?

The deal with this being produced is that I handled it very much like a short film.  It's being produced in conjunction with a group associated with Salisbury University in Maryland, and I still own the rights to it.  The first cut has been completed, and the final cut should be done very soon.  Once I see it, I will be able to decide whether I want to sign over the rights and try to take the film out for distrubution, or bury it and begin discussions with another producer who's waiting in the wings and asked me to get back to him if they "f*ck it up."

This will not be a Lifetime movie of the week.  Too much language, and I don't think an indentured servant stripper would play too well with the female empowerment demographic.

Lakewood is a friend of mine.

Good info.  Where did the LifeTime channel stuff come from?  Did someone make that up?

So, Gabe and Cam moved away, or Jill moved away?  Is this diner near where gabe and Cam live?

I’ve just checked your IMDB page and only just noticed Jack Amsterdam has his own movie in production. A lot of the past comments are only now making sense!

I do like how you can write a comedy without relying on bad language and loads of sex jokes. It is something I will never be able to do but something you are obviously very good at.

Realism was an issue for me but it’s a comedy, so it isn’t going to ruin the movie. I liked Franklin. He was my favorite character. I just think the movie would have been so much better if you had more characters in situations like this. Instead, you have Bum, who sits and does nothing at all.

Quoted from Dreamscale Good info.  Where did the LifeTime channel stuff come from?  Did someone make that up? So, Gabe and Cam moved away, or Jill moved away?  Is this diner near where gabe and Cam live?

One of the scripts suggested was a Lifetime movie.  How that got attributed to me, I have no idea.

Gabe and Cam moved away.  Yes, it's near them.  Easily accesible by bicycle.

Quoted from Brian M I do like how you can write a comedy without relying on bad language and loads of sex jokes. It is something I will never be able to do but something you are obviously very good at.

I think most of my comedy is somewhat downplayed and subtle.  Yes, I have written things that have gone the way of sex jokes, but it's not normally what I do.  I suppose it all revolves around the concept.

Quoted from Brian M Realism was an issue for me but it�s a comedy, so it isn�t going to ruin the movie. I liked Franklin. He was my favorite character. I just think the movie would have been so much better if you had more characters in situations like this. Instead, you have Bum, who sits and does nothing at all.

True, Bum doesn't serve as much purpose as the other characters here, but I even made fun of that a little bit when he showed up in the dream.  He couldn't understand what he was doing there either.  He was just a random person that frequents the coffee shop.

Thank you Mike for your insight.

You especially give good insight and advice in the rewrites department which is why I like to keep things fresh and cycle things around.

There comes a point I think, especially as you become more experienced, where you know something is as good as it's going to get for any particular project in a typical time frame and that time frame is very subjective. It's just good writing hygiene I think to always keep things fresh, cycle works in some kind of turn, and finish work that is important to you even if it's not "finished" in the sense of being "perfect" because there isn't such a thing, but there is such a thing as knowing when you've spent too long on the same thing.

Regarding Jill showing up:

I  understand that that's just not in this story. It is an interesting idea, but it doesn't matter because that's not what happened after all is it?

Regarding the title;

Like I said, the title is one of the things that caught my attention immediately.

Sandra

I think Jill showing up is perfectly reasonable when it comes to this story. Yes it is stated that Gabe and Cam moved out of the big city but you never stated how far they moved, they could have been 30 minutes away or 20 hours away. If Jill still had feelings for Gabe it is perfectly reasonable for her to be able to find him unless he has moved very far away which is not clarified in the script as is.

But like you said Shelton since this has gotten a bunch of attention already and is actually getting produced there is no point in arguing about rewrites that will never nor need to ever happen.

I do agree with many that this has sort of a lighthearted cartoony feel, with that said I do get the sense it is pretty realistic as far as Comedy goes.

My two biggest gripes with this as far as the story is that Gabe our main character is the lamest character in the entire story and the ending, the ending is Just very lackluster for me.

I can see how some may like this script alot, like I said before comedy is in the eye of the beholder in alot of cases. I did not find this funny but it is so well written that I am sure some thought this was hilarious.

I would be curious to see how this plays out on the screen because I have a feeling I may enjoy it more that way.

Quoted from YaBoyTopher I think Jill showing up is perfectly reasonable when it comes to this story. Yes it is stated that Gabe and Cam moved out of the big city but you never stated how far they moved, they could have been 30 minutes away or 20 hours away. If Jill still had feelings for Gabe it is perfectly reasonable for her to be able to find him unless he has moved very far away which is not clarified in the script as is.

What you're saying makes sense, but in order for it to be achieved, there would have to be some kind of inkling that Jill does still have feelings for Gabe.  As it is, she's just gone.  It's definitely more on the side that she doesn't.  As far as how far away they go, you're right, it's not explicitly said.  All you know is that they've moved far enough away so that he could forget about her.

Quoted from YaBoyTopher My two biggest gripes with this as far as the story is that Gabe our main character is the lamest character in the entire story and the ending, the ending is Just very lackluster for me.

Those gripes are justified.  Gabe is a pretty passive character, and it's quite odd that the conflict is totally in his mind.  This is usually something that is secondary.  A flaw if you will, that prevents them from overcoming the external conflict.  Since there's no external conflict in this script, for him anyway, it takes the story in an entirely different direction than what is accepted.

As was said before, there is a version of this on my website, and in that one the ending goes in a pretty different direction.  The gist of it is that Gabe is watching this thing unfold, and writing in his notebook on a subconcious level.  As he comes out of it, he realizes that he may be willing some of these things to happen, as the scene with Yago and the "car salesmen" plays out exactly as he'd written it in his notebook beforehand.  Now there's nothing new and innovative about that at all, but it's something different, and was the result of some feedback from a previously interested party.

I personally do think it's silly to bring Jill back into the script at the end, she doesn't belong there.  But I also think the Jillsplat ending is a good one for the script.  It's not "real" but then again the rest of the script isn't either.  

When you think about, Jill isn't really a part of the story.  It's that breakup between her and Gabe that moves the story along.  She more of a prop than a character.


Phil

Quoted from mcornetto I personally do think it's silly to bring Jill back into the script at the end, she doesn't belong there.  But I also think the Jillsplat ending is a good one for the script.  It's not "real" but then again the rest of the script isn't either.

Interesting.  Wouldn't a Jillsplat at the end bring her into reality though?  Or are you saying she should pop up in his head again and he's not actually "cured"?

Quoted from dogglebe When you think about, Jill isn't really a part of the story. It's that breakup between her and Gabe that moves the story along.  She more of a prop than a character.

She's part of my story, but not Gabe's.  There, she's the anti-story, whose only function is to screw him up.

Quoted from Shelton Interesting.  Wouldn't a Jillsplat at the end bring her into reality though?  Or are you saying she should pop up in his head again and he's not actually "cured"?

I'm saying it doesn't really matter that it doesn't makes sense in "reality" because somehow it just fits the ending, as a matter of fact I would almost go as far as saying it's the perfect ending for this script.  I don't think you really need to specify whether Gabe is dreaming or not.  As someone suggested earlier, no one in the coffee shop even needs to notice her crossing that street - it's just for the audience.

I agree with Cornetto on this.  Whether or not it's the Jill splat ending or just the Jill and gabe make eye contact ending, I think it would really imporve teh overall feeling we're left with.

The splat ending is over the top funny, and the contact ending is ambiguous, and very open ended.  Each works in their own way.  But each defiinitely works.

So, Jill, who has never appeared anywhere in the reality based part of this script, suddenly appears out of nowhere, only to get hit by a bus?

If I saw that, I'd start wondering if the whole script was a dream.

I also think a Jill ending of some kind would work. But that's been said many times, just thought I should say my opinion.

Quoted from Shelton Franklin could scream for help, sure, but that's one of those things where if you do it, you've got nothing.  Your story is over.  I think there are a lot of instances where someone could say that.  Bond villians for instance.

I totally agree with you.  Adjusting reality is fine if it makes the story better.  Only certain stories need to adhere to complete realism, and I'm not sure this one is one of them.  I consider Bond films to be totally unrealistic, though.  It's one thing for everything in a story to be possible, but likelihood needs to be considered as well.

I guess I'm confused why you're willing to tweak the reality of certain situations, but are putting your foot down at the ending.  If you simply don't think it's funny, then I would understand.

I agree with mcornetto about that ending being good for the script (I'd stop short of perfect, though), and that it's unlikelihood is balanced by the unlikelihood of earlier events in the script.  In fact, I'm starting to realize that if I wait long enough, mcornetto will state my opinion for me.   :)

Also, as someone from the Midwest, I feel the need to state that Pittsburgh is NOT in the Midwest.  :P

How is Pittsburgh not in the midwest?  What do you consider to be the midwest?

I grew up in the midwest, and Pittsburgh was 1 state away.

Ok. I could see how the splat could make someone think it's a dream.  How about this?  

They are all in the coffee shop at the end.  Across the street Jill watches Gabe through the window.  She takes a deep breath and begins crossing the street.  In the middle of the street she stops.  She's having an attack of cold feet.  One more glance in the window at Gabe and she shakes her head.  She turns around takes a few steps and a truck speeds by. After the truck goes by, Jill is gone.

Quoted from escapist I totally agree with you.  Adjusting reality is fine if it makes the story better.  Only certain stories need to adhere to complete realism, and I'm not sure this one is one of them.  I consider Bond films to be totally unrealistic, though.  It's one thing for everything in a story to be possible, but likelihood needs to be considered as well.

I didn't adhere to realism when I wrote it.  I just think it turned out that way.  There are things that are definitely not, as you said before, hyper-realistic, but I'm not dealing with a talking lion or anything here either.

Quoted from escapist I guess I'm confused why you're willing to tweak the reality of certain situations, but are putting your foot down at the ending.  If you simply don't think it's funny, then I would understand.

It just doesn't make sense to me.  She never appears in the reality part of the script, and then would, even though she's really not anywhere near Gabe.  To me, that's not tweaking just the ending, it's adding in more stuff somewhere else to make it more feasible as to why she would even be there.

Quoted from escapist Also, as someone from the Midwest, I feel the need to state that Pittsburgh is NOT in the Midwest.  :P

I agree.  I live in Chicago.

Quoted from Dreamscale How is Pittsburgh not in the midwest?  What do you consider to be the midwest? I grew up in the midwest, and Pittsburgh was 1 state away.

Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa, Ohio, Minnesota.  In my opinion

Quoted from mcornetto Ok. I could see how the splat could make someone think it's a dream.  How about this?   They are all in the coffee shop at the end.  Across the street Jill watches Gabe through the window.  She takes a deep breath and begins crossing the street.  In the middle of the street she stops.  She's having an attack of cold feet.  One more glance in the window at Gabe and she shakes her head.  She turns around takes a few steps and a truck speeds by. After the truck goes by, Jill is gone.

I'm double posting, but you've convinced me.  I'll make that change.

Quoted from Dreamscale How is Pittsburgh not in the midwest?  What do you consider to be the midwest? I grew up in the midwest, and Pittsburgh was 1 state away.

Pennsylvania is practically northeast.


Phil

I grew up in Ohio. I consider PA to be the midwest as well.  From Cleveland, PA is less than 2 hours away.  I'm surprised you guys don't agree.  Pittsburgh is steel town, how much more midwest can you get? C'mon now!

Quoted from mcornetto They are all in the coffee shop at the end.  Across the street Jill watches Gabe through the window.  She takes a deep breath and begins crossing the street.  In the middle of the street she stops.  She's having an attack of cold feet.  One more glance in the window at Gabe and she shakes her head.  She turns around takes a few steps and a truck speeds by. After the truck goes by, Jill is gone.

Okay, for me this goes to the work of dragging Jill into the scene, but doesn't have the joke to justify it.

How about this?

Gabe's new novel sits on display in a bookstore.  A hand reaches out and picks it up, turns it over to read the back.  It's Jill.  She smiles.

Optionally adding:

Jill exits the store, having purchased the book.  She flips through the first few pages, sees her name.  She steps into the crosswalk without looking.  A car honks and swerves, barely missing her.  She jumps back onto the curb, flustered.

The Midwest technically consists of: Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, South Dakota, and Wisconsin.  Personally, I don't really think of Ohio and Michigan as being part of the Midwest.  I think of them as being primarily industrial rather than agricultural.

Anything west of New Jersey and east of California is the midwest.

And your idea for an ending isn't bad either.  

Quoted from Dreamscale Pittsburgh is steel town, how much more midwest can you get? C'mon now!

Corn fields, soy beans, hogs, cattle, being closer to the Mississippi than you are to the Atlantic?  :)

This is what I love about Script Club.  Some random dialogue exchange (not saying that Pittsburgh is in the Midwest) has generated close to a dozen comments.

Rock on.

Let's make it a Baker's Dozen comments then.  Officially, PA is not in the Midwest. I stand corrected.  There are 12 states that make up the Midwest, Ohio, being the furthest east.

But growing up in Ohio, we often travelled to PA, and it is very much the Midwest to us...or me..but then, again, what does that mean?  Nothing.

You guys are correct.  Sorry.

Quoted from Dreamscale I grew up in Ohio. I consider PA to be the midwest as well.  From Cleveland, PA is less than 2 hours away.

PA also borders New York State.



Phil

Quoted from dogglebe PA also borders New York State.

I'm not going to Google Earth ever again. I'll just PM you.

Shoot, you beat me to the Baker's Dozen remark.  Always a day late and a dollar short.

I still say leave Jill out.  I personally don't feel the story needs that closer or that joke.  Personal feelings on this only.

You know, I feel stupid about this, but I never put two and two together to see how Gabe was developing them into characters in his dreams.  Dang!, that's good writing Shelton.  Good stuff.  This is why I have my wife stop movies and explain things to me some times.  We had Memento on pause so many times it wasn't funny!  :)

I live in the middle of Ohio, more or less.  All this geography stuff is quite true.

I lived in upstate, New Jersey for awhile, 20 miutes outside NY city, and took Interstate 80 all the way across PA to get there.  Straight shot.  Dead boring drive. :)

Isn't it weird that Pennsylvania, a state on the east coast is considered to be "midwest?" Who comes up with this crap anyway? Seriously, if anything, Ohio would be mideast, if you want to really divide stuff. The east/west divider is technically the Mississippi River. I'm in Oklahoma, and I know full well I'm in the middle. I'm not west or east, though I've heard Southwest as a term (because it's in the southern part and west of the MI river. Anyway...

I'm good with leaving Jill out, but her getting hit crossing the street (or just disappearing as a truck passes) completely unnoticed by the people in the shop would be very amusing.

I'm all abou people gettig hit by buses. It's funny. I laughed hysterically at Final Destination.

Quoted from steven8 I lived in upstate, New Jersey for awhile, 20 miutes outside NY city, and took Interstate 80 all the way across PA to get there.  Straight shot.  Dead boring drive. :)

I used to take I-80 traveling from Colorado to Iowa and vice versa.  If you think Pennsylvania is bad, try Nebraska.

It occurs to me that this derail is all my fault.   :B

Quoted from escapist I used to take I-80 traveling from Colorado to Iowa and vice versa.  If you think Pennsylvania is bad, try Nebraska. It occurs to me that this derail is all my fault.   :B

I've done Kansas.  Flat, flat and more flat.

Now, back to the subject. . . .

Quoted from steven8 I've done Kansas.  Flat, flat and more flat. Now, back to the subject. . . .

I did a girl in high school.  Flat, flat and more flat.

Now, back to the subject. . . .

Quoted from Shelton I did a girl in high school.  Flat, flat and more flat. Now, back to the subject. . . .

:o  I think I knew that chick. . . .

Hi guys. Thought I'd have a read of this. Got some spare time till the web series starts.  I'm not the type for notes or long reviews. I read the script right through and enjoyed it. The formatting was good, the dialogue crisp. The comedy was genuinely funny. My fave line was Cam's when talking about Jack's possible 'groupies' - def of a lot of ass is two chicks at the same time? Priceless.
Anyway, I'm glad I read it to get a grasp of a different type of script. The talking heads issue wasn't really an issue, in my opinion. They chatted for awhile and the story moved on.
I don't know if it would transfer into a strong film. Maybe with some tweaking and just a few more comedic lines. cheers

Hey Stevie,

Thanks for giving the script a read and leaving some thoughts here in the script club.  I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Funny thing I noticed is that you weren't sure about it's translation to film, since I recall some others earlier who weren't sure on the script, but thought it might work on film.

It's always interesting to see varying viewpoints on the same piece of work, especially in regards to something like that.

That's another thing about comedy, though, is that sometimes a good actor or comedian can pull off the script better on screen than it comes off on the page. I found the script to be funny on the page, so I imagine the right solid comic actor could take it well over the top. It might even make Jeff chuckle if done right.

I think a good cast can do talking heads and make them interesting as long as we're interested in what they're saying. Sometimes they're more interesting than people give them credit for.

Quoted from steven8 :o  I think I knew that chick. . . .

I think we all did.


Phil

I was the pathetic sap who just watched her on the internet... very flat...

Yeah, George, the right actor can make alot of crap interesting or funny, but that "right" actor usually costs a shitload, and I doubt we're talking A or B talent for this...are we Mike?

Do you know what the cast will be like?  I'm talking in terms of pro actors, etc.  Aslo, do you know what the budget is going to be?

Quoted from Dreamscale Yeah, George, the right actor can make alot of crap interesting or funny, but that "right" actor usually costs a shitload, and I doubt we're talking A or B talent for this...are we Mike?

Jeff, you'd be surprised at the quality of people you can find who can pull this sort of thing off. The A list actors are simply in demand because of their skill, but there are tons of skilled people out there just waiting for a chance to show off their talent and become that A-lister. They get added to the proverbial list every year.

No, there's no A or B talent in this, this was done on a low budget.  I don't know the exact amount, but it's LOW.

I don't think that eliminates getting decent talent on board though.  With a halfwat decent casting call, I would think most actors would come out of the woodwork, especially in a place like Maryland where a lot of stuff isn't really done.

Hopefully you get some good actors.  But the one thing I consistently notice when people post stuff they've made or someone else has made from their script, is how much the acting sucks.  Even at best it's usually only ok.

If anybody has something they can show me to prove me wrong, please share it with me by all means.  It's not like I've seen all that much.

Quoted from escapist If anybody has something they can show me to prove me wrong, please share it with me by all means.  It's not like I've seen all that much.

Check your pms.

As far as the actors, I'll have to let everyone know once I see it.

I've had several shorts produced and, while the acting was a problem in some, others have had very good performers playing the parts.


Phil

It's always hit and miss, even with A or B list high profile actors.

I just saw "Taken" this last weekend.  Liam Neeson is a great actor...but his performance in this movie in the first 25 minutes is God awful!  I mean just terrible.  He gets better as it goes on, but it's surprising how bad it is at first.

You just never know.

Quoted from Dreamscale I just saw "Taken" this last weekend.  Liam Neeson is a great actor...but his performance in this movie in the first 25 minutes is God awful!  I mean just terrible.  He gets better as it goes on, but it's surprising how bad it is at first.

Not half as bad as Maggie Grace with the whole "Daddy!" followed by the stupid kind of run a 5 year old makes when chasing the ice cream van act. Honestly, I was in stitches watching her, easily the worst performance by an actress I've ever seen.

Brian, that is so funny, cause my girlfriend and I were saying the exact same thing!  They had her acting like a frickin' 5 year old and that run was just pathetic!

Glad someone else picked up on that.  Nice job!