Script Club XI: Killing on Carnival Row

It has been several months since the last Script Club, and I have seen comments on a few threads indicating that it was time for another.

The voting last time was a kind of a mess, so I am just going to go out on a limb and put this script forward.

But it is an exceptional script, and I do not think it will disappoint.

It is called "Killing on Carnival Row".

I started a review thread for the script, but that board gets little traffic unless you use the portal button. (Note:  If you do not use the portal button -- on the upper-right -- try it now and go, "Wow, how did I miss that?")

The review thread is here, as is a link to the script:

http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-scriptreviews/m-1250989362/

This thread will be unlocked for discussion on September 6, after the OWC has died down.

I am just putting it out there now because some readers like a little extra time to fit the script into their schedule.  This gives you a couple of weeks.

I encourage you to check it out, even if you do not plan to participate in the discussion.  I have not been so enthusiastic about an unproduced script in a while, and would wager it is only a matter of time before somebody picks this one up.

[Edit:  A little more research tells me this has been picked up by New Line, but that is just Wiki, and IMDB does not show it.  This is apparently the first spec by author Travis Beacham, who is now reworking Clash of the Titans]

So, with the OWC winding down, I am throwing open the gates for the newest iteration of Script Club, in which we will be discussing "Killing on Carnival Row".

You can find the details above.  It is not too late to read the script and participate in the discussion.  It usually takes a few days to get rolling, and usually goes on for a week or two before it winds down.

What I have taken away from past script clubs is that the conversations are fairly organic; the tangents are unpredictable, and lead where they will despite the most earnest of moderators.  Several people have led these in the past.  This is the first I have done in quite some time -- but I love the script under discussion here.

I will swipe a page from George, however, and open as he did -- with the simple directive to start with your general first impression.

This will give those who are going to participate a chance to speak up briefly, and kind of lets the others know where they will be coming from in terms of the discussion.

As for myself, I found it to be one of the best scripts I have read in years.  I loved the way it was written, with many florid passages -- and yet I would challenge someone to point to a specific passage and call it overwritten.  But that is a discussion for later.

Some of the other aspects we will be touching upon include:

Story/structure/plot
Characterization/arc/journey
Dialogue
Writing
Commercial appeal

But feel free to toss anything out there over the coming days.  I have some specific things I know I would like to discuss later, once we are rolling -- and I am almost sure that after reading this script, you will, too.

I've already said I plan on giving this a look. Do you know the writer??? Will he/she be peering in on our comments??? Would make it more worth while...

You've been here a long time, i'll take your word for it that it is THAT good. Gonna have to get my sweat pants on before i sit down to read a feature. I'll try to fit it in this week. Would love to read something before it was ever picked up. To see how long it would take to make it to film.

Quoted from jwent6688

Do you know the writer??? Will he/she be peering in on our comments???

The writer is not a member of these forums, to my knowledge.

Sometimes we do "member scripts" for Script Club, and sometimes we select something from "outside".

As for "peering in" on our comments, I will say that we have had mysterious "insiders" show up during our discussions of particular scripts -- the discussion of "Countdown" springs to mind -- so I suppose there is no telling who may be lurking in the shadows of our discussion.

Quoted from jwent6688

I'll take your word for it that it is THAT good...Would love to read something before it was ever picked up.

I think there is alot to learn from this one -- and I do believe that it is good enough to see theaters in some form, eventually.

The only script that Carson R. has rated as "genius" in some time at ScriptShadow. I agree. The author creates a world so effortlessly I was sucked in from the first page. The story and wiritng was unlike anything I have ever read or seen in a scirpt. It's like Blade Runner's detective noir with the wonder of of discovering Hogwarts. And that's an oversimplification. Obviously, I loved this. The story satisfies too. My objectivity is gone on this one and wish some negative aspects of would be pointed out on this to bring me down to earth. Yes, it should be a movie!

Quoted from grademan

It's like Blade Runner's detective noir...

Yes, I noticed that, too. There are many parallels.

Quoted from grademan

...wish some negative aspects of would be pointed out on this to bring me down to earth.

Well, the story of Philostrate does break one glaring "rule" of conventional structure that BR's tale of Deckard does not. At least, in my opinion.

But we'll get to that later. One of the things I hope to discuss is if the story works well enough despite that -- or if it could be improved (or diminished) were that aspect to be added.

I downloaded the script when I got home and have just started reading it. I certainly agree that it is an original vision (at least for a film). To tell the truth, the film it most reminded me of at the start was Tim Burton's "Sleepy Hollow". A Director like Burton would have some fun with this kind of script.

I would say that, from a personal point of view more than anything else, I really dislike Voice Overs - at least at the start of films. It did seem at one time that every script I read (by aspiring screenwriters, not produced ones) started with a VO and I grew to loathe the very sight of those initials!

This has been, however, the only flaw for me so far!

I've finally finished this and must say that I'm very impressed. It's probably the best spec script I've read (although I don't read as much as some people), there are so many positive things to mention and only a few small things that stuck out that could have been worked on.

I do agree that the actions lines are so well written, the writer always seems to have the perfect word for what he is describing, which is something I struggle with. Since this is a fantasy world, there are lots to describe, yet it never feels overwritten. The story was also well thought out, with a good start and great ending. It's no surprise the writer of this is getting some major work at the moment. Did someone say this was his first script?

Travis Beacham, the writer, is apparently working on the remake of "Clash of the Titans", but news of a version of "Carnival Row" has gone quiet despite New Line buying it and Neil Jordan having been attached, so it may have sunk into Development Hell.

I was a bit surprised to discover he was an American - the script had a peculiarly British feeling to it!

I'll agree with you there, the "sodding" dialogue especially. I would have bet my house on him being British.

I'll read this next week when the family is on holidays. Have read the first few pages and it reminds me a lot of China Mievelle's book 'Perdido Street Station' from 2001.
It has that sort of feel to it, though that book had more sort of techie science fiction.

am looking forward to this.

Sorry Bert,

But my eyes must be blind right now. Is the script link posted in this thread?

Sandra

Here you go Sandra... http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?w2wddyz9onp

I will be participating in this... will read the script in the next day or two...

Quoted from Tommyp

Here you go Sandra... http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?w2wddyz9onp

I will be participating in this... will read the script in the next day or two...

Thank you so much Tommy. What would I do without you!!!!

You really have helped me a lot.

Sandra

Thanks Tommy. I gotta get crackin on this one.

Big expectations since all the internet buzz, hopefully it delivers.

Quoted from Aaron

Thanks Tommy. I gotta get crackin on this one.

Big expectations since all the internet buzz, hopefully it delivers.

I feel so bewildered!!! I've got to work on Tim's script. It's been on my heart from before the OWC and it deserves attention!

I really hope that I can balance attention in different areas and focus at the same time....

You know,

When you multiply, you actually divide. A reciprocal law. Still, it doesn't make it any easier.

No Clorox, I'm not eating "shrooms". Drinking a whole lot of coffee maybe, and trying to lay low on the Vodka, but I'm just a different sort. My husband understands me and so I, Him. ...and we are blessed. I guess that's why we've been together for over 31 years.

I love Him so. He takes my soul.

Sandra

I just finished reading this script...

My first impression was that it was pretty average.

I figured out whodunit pretty early on - though I was surprised by one aspect it didn't really deviate from my expected outcome.

Don't get me wrong, it had it's moments, but overall it didn't excite me that much. I think this was because the author really didn't take it as far as it could go - he created this fantasy world but I found many of the characters and situations too rooted in our own world.  Some would say that's a good thing but for me it was a bit of a  disappointment.

However, I did think it was well structured and paced.

The part I liked the least was the skylight scene - so cliche.

The part I liked the most would be Vignette's retribution.  The set up for that was handled nicely and I wasn't expecting it.

I thought the end of it was a bit corny - but who am I to complain about that.

Anyway, those are my first impressions.

Quoted from mcornetto

My first impression was that it was pretty average.

Good -- I was hoping there would be somebody in this camp.

Quoted from mcornetto

the author really didn't take it as far as it could go...I found many of the characters and situations too rooted in our own world. Some would say that's a good thing...

Yes, two sides to that argument. It might be good to revisit this later.

I've been pretty busy lately so I haven't read this yet. I had planned on it, but...

I'll be honest with you Bert, I started reading it this morning and I found it to be a slow read. Way too descriptive for my taste. Maybe it will get better. I'll try to finish it later today.

First impressions:

The Good

The author has created a very rich, complex, and interesting world with a staggering level of realism despite the fantasy setting. Fairies that lose their wings can't handle the depression and kill themselves withing a couple of days? Brilliant.

The Bad

In a murder mystery where a detective must solve the crime in order to clear his name I expect to find myself repeatedly saying "Oh wow, what a brilliant conclusion the protagonist has just made. I could have never seen that on my own, yet it makes so much sense. This detective is really good at his job".

Yet this didn't happen to me. Not once. The detective didn't do much "detective work", he just listened to other characters spit a mouthfull of exposition.

Overall it was a good script but with potential to be much better.

Hmm.

Struggling with this one to be honest.

I've got to page 20 but it's taken me about 40 minutes to do so. Incredibly slow, boring read so far I'm sorry to say.

I'm going to give it another 20 pages and see if it picks up, otherwise I'll have to ditch it.

FIRST IMPRESSIONS:

BAD

Heavily influenced by British Folklore and writing. Sherlock Holmes, Jack the Ripper, Harry Potter, Hellboy all make an appearance here, but perhaps the most striking influence for me is the work of Terry Pratchett and his Discworld novels.

This feels like a darker version of those, stripped of their intelligence, wit and humour.

The scene talking about theurgic amalgamology was bordering dangeroulsy on plagiarism. Unbelievably close to Pratchett's work on the Unseen University.

The dialogue is boring and expositional. I've been told three times already that there has been a murder. Yes, I know. I saw it in the first 10 seconds. Get on with it.

The whole Fairy = ethnic minority thing felt so studenty and 90's. It's old, so old. The dialogue was practically the same on this as in the film White Man's Burden.

The characters are interesting physically, but I don't get any sense that they are interesting underneath their appearance. Everyone is very human.

GOOD.

He's at least stolen from some visually interesting stories.

Dark fantasy is one of my favourite genres.

EDIT:

Picked up a little bit in the middle, but I'm going to pass on this. It's just too much of a homage to other material.

The mechanical/magic technology is too evocative of Philip Pullman's Dark Material Trilogy
The characters fall straight out of the Discworld Novels and Harry Potter.

I can't find an ounce of the authors own voice.

It's an interesting mix of a lot of different films and novels, but it just doesn't do anything for me at all.

If I hadn't read and seen all the influences, I think it would have grabbed me a bit more and it would probably work better as a film (especially if a Del Torro type was in control), but I can't get past a page without a glaring homage making itself known.

I'm with Decadence here. I'm struggling with this one. Reading it feels like a chore. :-/

I just read something by one of our SS members that blows this one away...

It gets better somewhere in the middle because there starts to be more action. So keep reading guys.

Not my cup of tea, ladies and gentlemen. I'm afraid I'm going to pass on this script.

Enjoy!

I am a little surprised to see so many negative reactions.

I mean, that's cool -- that's what it is all about -- probably the same way that I will just never get Jim Carrey while millions of others seem to.

But I will stand by it -- this one is just dynamite to me -- if not everybody's cup of cocoa. This script had me from page 1.

I do think Z is right that Philostrate is not as proactive as he could be, in addition to a few other problems with his character. (Philostrate, not Z :))

And I wish I was a bit more well-versed in the fantasy literature cited by Dec -- I am disappointed if this is true -- but I cannot really speak to it one way or the other.

I can only say that many of the elements in this script feel fresh to me.

Continuing with my first impressions, I do wish this script had the courage to go even darker than it does -- a little less Harry Potter and a little more Sin City is where I might have taken these characters.

I will finish this one, but to be honest... if I was a studio reader this one would go into the trash after the first ten. IMHO. I'm really surprised you think this is the best one you've read in years. I don't like the writing. It's way too too much of everything.

Like I said earlier I read a script today that is in a way similar in its atmosphere. Dark, gloomy, in the past, sci-fi'ish , but manages to describe the place, creatures and actions in a much more economical AND poetic way.

I like Script Club, but I don't hold anything against Decadence and Dreamscale for not wanting to finish the read. It's a tough read and not that engaging.

Here, here!

For the record, I read the first 10 or so pages, and I agree with Pia completely. The style of writing comes off, IMO, as just too much...trying too hard to be cool...trying...too much, really.

Lots and lots of passive verbiage. I even caught a typo and some inconsistent useage of caps after mini slugs.

Not for me, but I can see why some would really like this.

I noticed lots of passive verbs but didn't let it bother me. Time and time again, I download a new spec script that has sold recently and get the same thing, tons of passive verbs littered throughout. Sometimes I think we beat ourselves up over such small things on here when it's obviously not making a difference if the script will sell or not. I caught a typo too but the guy's only human, I guess.

Same goes for secondary heading, some people hate them and go for the old fashioned way all the time. One of the best parts of this script was the way the writer used secondary headings, very clear and moved things along at a greater pace. That's why I'm shocked some are finding this very hard to get through, I thought it was a breeze.

One thing I would not call this script is over-written. Would anyone care to share any examples because I'm struggling to find any? I thought with this being a fantasy, it would fall into the trap of describing things too much, but for me, it didn't.

I must say I am struggling with it too. It has a great opening - the fairy murder - and is very vividly described - obviously a lot of effort has gone into creating this world, but I am afraid that I just can't get involved in the story - which is very ordinary really. It suggests that plotting is not a strongpoint of this writer!

A screenplay should grab you and make you want to keep reading. This one doesn't - it's more a case of me having to make myself read it, which is not good.

As I mentioned before, for a film it does have a very original setting - but in the world of literature it doesn't, and obviously draws from many sources (as we all do when we write). The writer presumably felt that, to write this as a novel would probably see it disappear into the mass of similar projects, but as a screenplay it would be pretty well unique.

Anyone who has seen "Company of Wolves" will know Neil Jordan could create this kind of world onscreen, but I still think that Burton would have been a better choice.

For the record, I do think that this piece is a tad overwritten as far as the writing style goes.

A few less adjectives and a bit more focus on the details that count (instead of every detail) would have made this a faster read and enhanced the experience.

But at the same time I can see why Bert likes the writing so much. It's really vivid. This guy clearly is good with words (the author, not Bert :))

There were too many descriptive passages, but I must admit that some of them where damn good.

I've struggled through the script as best as I can.

All I can say is that I think it is bad enough to end numerous careers.

I'll leave it at that.

You know, I'm not too far into it but I kinda like it so far. Nice tone to it.

I haven't finished it yet, but I'm more than half way through.

I agree that it does get better, but still is far from brilliant IMHO.

Well, thanks, Pia.

It is nice to see some of you guys sticking it out. I was worried this might just be the shortest Script Club ever haha.

And here I was worried that everybody would be gushing without anything negative to say.

Doesn't look like that will be a problem.

Could I direct a quick question to some of you that simply cannot stomach this script?

Do you recall at what point -- exactly, if you can -- that you decided, "I can not read any further into this script!" -- and you set it down.

That might also be an interesting discussion point to examine later -- as it seems there are several people still reading.

Quoted from bert

OK, I'm sorry if I'm not where everyone else is yet, but I'm trying my best.

My First Impression

This script is painted beautiful with its literal flair and its usage of strong emotive constructs within it.

Such as this:

Page 4

There is an "in and out" motion that I get. He stares into the eyes of the ghost and the train screams to a stop.

We feel like we're being sucked in and out, I can almost hear music in my head for this and sound effects and that would be a cool job, building sound overs for movies. Ah, maybe next life! ;D

But I'm getting ahead. Let's go back to page 3

to the solid transition on page 3 with the use of the aerial view.

I can imagine us soaring along with the V.O. and coming down into a fade that becomes "the web" of which

The Philostrate speaks--

Here, we realize now, that we are looking at a
map in the underground train station

When the Philostrate proclaims,

And that's The Burgue for you, A-Z, we realize that this is where we really were all along.

There must be a name for these kinds of transitions, but I don't know what they are.

The writer, identifies the "source" and "location" of the voice over, relays it and then transports us magically back to it's source. (We mostly are unaware of these shifts unless we study it).

It became clear to me upon reading this, that I have met Philostrate! I know this guy. I'd recognize him anywhere!

Here:

Philostrate stuffs the papers into a nearby dustbin and tosses
a lit match in after them. A small bonfire erupts.
PHILOSTRATE (CONT'D)

PHILOSTRATE (CONT'D)
I'm sorry. Just doing my job.

I understand this. And it is just perfect for me.

At the 5 page mark, we're given clear understanding of the racial problems that exist in this world.

Notice in the beginning, when Aisling is plunged down to the waters, it is left there. We are left to wonder, what has happened. From there the story moves away, focusing our attention on Philostrate.

We know by the implications of Philostrate's dialogue that he is essentially a good man.

"Oh and you speak Selkie, do you?"

This:

A human face pushes through the open mouth. A whole head
emerges. Curly red hair. A hand. An arm. A shoulder.

The girl underneath pulls off the dark sealskin as if she's
sliding out of a tight leather skirt.

I love it. I feel like it's a chicken/egg scenario.

As we move to Moira's song, I could write pages on it. But I'll only quote on this:

sublime song soundless to men's ears

The beauty in this is the truth that there are many energetic frequencies that man cannot hear with his ears, but exist.

Within the words themselves, exist a current.

I like watching Bottom's frustration in that it's our human tendency to get that way. We want it and we want it now. Why must we go through listening to all this apparent rubbish.

What is very nicely done on the writer's part is that Bottom is shown acting in his frustration BEFORE he expresses it outright in his dialogue.

At the point of his frustration, he's completely engaged in his work. You can almost imagine him thinking "fuckin crap" to himself. BUT he doesn't say it. I think this is a good example of when it's better not to say "fuck". As some fucking scripts are loaded with the fucking word! Oh, sorry.

Oh man! I love this here:

BOTTOM
Waste of time. It's all gibberish.

PHILOSTRATE
You see, that's why you have to come
to work in the uniform and I get to
wear whatever I want.

I'm certain I've met the Philostrate before. Goes by different names. Hi Phil! Luv ya! (see Sandra wave)

I had to laugh at Bottom here:

BOTTOM (CONT'D)
No wonder there's so many murders.
Seedy places like that breed psychos
by the bushel. Someone should really
go up to Carnival Row and cart the
lot of 'em off to the clink.

PHILOSTRATE
I have plenty of suits.

You do Philo, yes you do!

Here notice the BEATIFUL TYPO

They kiss deeply as she awkwardly fumbles with the his shirt.

That kind of thing happens when you're there!

So far, this is a complete surprise for me. I didn't know what I was going to be reading.

I'm very pleased and satisfied with it.

Bottom's questioning about male faeries is very curious and curiouser. I loved it.

Sandra

Quoted from bert

The writer is not a member of these forums, to my knowledge.

I would love to meet the writer of this. I've only started, but I can feel it and imagine it coming to life.

Sandra

In response to Bert's question, I wasn't into it from the very first page. As I said earlier, it seems to me that the writer is trying to do too much, trying to be too hip, and in doing, is overwriting, yet leaving me wanting more (if that makes any sense).

I just didn't get much out of the first 10 pages visuallly, and based on this wild, new world we're in, I should have.

Also, I'm just not interested in reading about a killing of a faerie. No interest in reading about it or seeing it.

Hope that helps and makes sense.

Quoted from Dreamscale

I think it does, Jeff. The question of "why" we're interested in something or not, in its reverse is fundamental in changing circumstances.

I absolutely love cooking, but I absolutely hate sewing. But I have enjoyed the work of crochet. WTF is that all about?

I used to love running marathons and now I'm chained to my computer, like a slave, but enjoying myself in a way I can't explain. I love music, but damned if I don't need 48 hours in a day so that I can sit down and strum or tickle the keys.

I love to write about sex and don't get me started. And humor. And I love life!

I'm a completely hopeless case!

Don't feel bad about not liking this. You like what you like when you like it.

The important thing is that we are here and alive and we care. Damn but I think of Simply as a real and physical place. How cool is that?!

Sandra

Quoted from Dreamscale

I'd think you would relish a faerie killing.

This is a classic example of some accepting what is written where others do not.

I started reading and didn't put it down. I showed it to my daughter, and she did the same.

I still remember this story and it's been a couple of weeks since I read it.

It's been mentioned that this has all been done before, well, sure it has. Hasn't everything? This is the same, but different.

I went along for the ride and enjoyed every minute of it. If there is any weakness for me, it's the ending. How do you end a story like this? It would be like snuffing out this world, and that is tough to do to a world so richly created. But that's what we have nukes for.

Quoted from bert

Well, thanks, Pia.

It is nice to see some of you guys sticking it out. I was worried this might just be the shortest Script Club ever haha.

And here I was worried that everybody would be gushing without anything negative to say.

Doesn't look like that will be a problem.

Could I direct a quick question to some of you that simply cannot stomach this script?

Do you recall at what point -- exactly, if you can -- that you decided, "I can not read any further into this script!" -- and you set it down.

That might also be an interesting discussion point to examine later -- as it seems there are several people still reading.

Hard to say. I was like Jeff and was struggling from the very beginning.

Got to page 20 and had to put it down the first time. Then managed to make it to page 40 or so on the next sitting, by which point I felt I was sinking deeper and deeper into a mire with it.

It started to pick up in pace after that, but I didn't care about anything or anyone in the script, so although it got slightly more readable I never felt engaged by it at all.

It was an interesting combination of elements, but non of them were particularly interesting. It felt very middle of the road. Philostate is too boring to be a fantasy character, but not dark or layered enough for a noir character. The world was fantastical in appearance, but was peopled by very human characters.

It also felt like a very young script. It reminded me of fan fiction, like the writer had got his favourite films and books in front of him and just put them all together.

I might try and read it again with a fresh pair of eyes in a few weeks. I think expectation can play a huge role in how you perceive a work of art. I was expecting "genius" and then came across what seemed like a very ordinary story told in an interesting, but somewhat derivative world.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films

Philostrate is...not dark or layered enough for a noir character.

While I do not agree with you on every point, Dec, I am totally on board with you here.

To me, it is the biggest weakness in a script that I otherwise like quite a bit -- it is where some of the comparisons to Blade Runner (mentioned earlier) completely break down.

Where Deckard had so much going on under the surface -- so many conflicts -- Philostrate pretty much plays the generic hero throughout.

There is a lot that could be done with this character the script fails to explore.

But then we are moving into "R" and away from "PG-13".

Is it possible this was a deliberate decision?

Quoted from bert

There's quite a lot of gore in the script as it stands, so I wouldn't say it was a deliberate decision. I just think the writer is better at working with visuals, rather than characters. He was just out of Uni when he wrote this, living in LA. I think it shows heavily in his writing. I just don't feel he's ever experienced that Noiry despair.

Neil Jordan is capable of bringing out more of the darkness. In some ways his attachment to this script is fitting. His output has been mixed to say the least. Some great films, some disasters.

This film looks a major risk to me, which is quite fun in a way. I'm surprised that New Line/Warner are willing to take a risk with something like this that has no ready made fanbase. It's good to see that New Line are still capable of treading a slightly off beat path. Dark City was a great film, better than the Matrix in some ways. Maybe they can repeat the magic.

Well, I just want to say that this one just keeps getting better for me.

I feel that I connect with Philostrate. The job he does, he's betwixt-between what he wants to do and the societal structures he must uphold in his position. He wasn't even able to experienced love on an open level, but had to sneak around because it was generally considered unacceptable behavior.

A note on technique:

page 14 bottom

clever use of V.O.
as Dame speaks about Guinever Cartier (to perform for the Faerie Right's Lobby) this transports us magically into the next scene.

Kind of like a verbal premonition of what's to come.

Page 17

I note that the writer chose not to capitalize or use any kind of emphatic mark here:

A signature reveals it to be Tourmaline's

Also, (need to go back and check the page) there are stars down the right side of the page in one particular scene. Does anyone know what there intended purpose is?

Note here on

Page 21

Alcandre plucks a red fruit from Rupert's skin. The cat
MEWS harshly, leaps from his arms and darts into the shadows.
Alcandre turns the red fruit over in his fingers and grins.

That there's a level at which there is a connection of sympathetic feeling in the nervous system of the cat.

It's expressed by the pain resulting from the picking of the cherry.

I'm relating this to levels of awareness. For instance, when we cut our hair, or our nails, we don't experience it as pain. We think of hair and nails as pretty much dead things, yet they're not.

I found the twining aspect interesting also from the perspective that it feels like it goes against what is morally correct. I am reminded about a cat-dog creature (this is a real science story) that was created. I was using that idea in a story that is still in the cooker. Well, it didn't live. And why? I think I know the answer.

Here:
ALCANDRE
Well, there are old wives' tales.
Mostly hogwash. The Selkies say
faerie blood can be a potent
aphrodisiac. Some Eastern legends
say it's a cure for werewolfism.
And there are some Elvish gypsies
who still believe it could be somehow
treated or diluted into a psychotropic
drug that promotes visions. Hogwash.

Information dump. But it's OK. It depends upon how it's handled.

I think this is a splendidly painted story with more than just some words clunked down on the page. I feel that a lot of care and attention went into every bit of it and I don't agree with Jeff, that the writer is trying to be too hip.

My personal feelings are that it's not about being hip, but just about being.

OK, that's it for now.

Sandra

Interesting how we all can see things so differently Sandra.

I personally could have got over the slow read if the main character Philostrate had been more likable. I didn't like him at all. I didn't connect with him and I thought a lot of his actions were stupid even.

I didn't really like the main character all that much but what saved this for me was the character of Vignette because I did like her and I did care about her. So once she started to be a major player I kind of got into it.

What really turned me off with this script was sort of the same thing dec said. I'm a big fan of Prachett and this tried to be like Prachett but it was completely missing the wit.

Quoted from Grandma Bear

I am learning that the things I thought I didn't like, I actually love. I don't understand either. :)

Sandra

I have given up on it now - it just became a slog, and the script completely failed to hold my attention. I am afraid I couldn't really tell when I lost interest - before the half way point anyway, as my mind began to wander and my eyes slid over the pages, which passed without me really taking anything on them in properly.

The script had some great vivid descriptions and there is no denying the cinematic quality of the imagery - but I came to realise that more effort and imagination went into creating the setting than the story!

Still stand by my belief that Burton would make a good Director for this - and Johnny Depp can reprise his Abeline character from "From Hell", which is what this story reminded me of!

Edit: Just a thought actually - maybe the writer would be better Directing as he obviously has a very visual eye - collaborating with someone with strong plotting skills might be an advantage to both

I am currently approaching the middle of this script.

I note on page 30 the element of concealment and suspense towards the characters, but not the audience, where we are watching Philostrate see his love, Tourmaline, having been butchered. It creates tension.

We know on page 36 where the fingers of blame will point. We learn that the money, being thrown down, was a significant action, although it wasn't realized at the time it was represented.

I see that this script is woven perfectly, each piece that within it exists for a reason and to me, nothing is extraneous.

I have to go out, but I will continue more later.

Sandra

I agree with Sandra that the script is woven perfectly. The money is a great example of something that didn't seem important at the time but for me, how they tie everything up in the end is the highlight, it shows how well thought out the script really was.

The more I think about it, the more I love everything about this script. I can honestly say this is the most perfect script I've ever read (alothough I haven't read a lot). The descriptive writing, the visuals, the world he creates, the mystery and the characters. Yes, even Philostrate.

I liked his back story, his reasons for doing what he has to do (seeking redemption) and the conclusion of it all. I thought his character was handled very well, although I'm in the minority on this so far.

The script keeps getting interesting, maybe it's just me. The writer indeed created a very rich world.

Quoted from Aaron

The script keeps getting interesting, maybe it's just me. The writer indeed created a very rich world.

He created a rich world in context and dotted all his i's and crossed his t's from my perspective.

I feel like a lot of thought and work went into this. If I could write this well, I would be happy at having achieved a level of quality work that I would feel is very presentable.

Sandra

Are we done with this one or are some people still reading?

Since so many people clearly didn't like it, but some thought it great, we should be able to have a good discussion about this script...no?

This is an unbelievably slow Script Club! Damn! I'm glad I'm not in on this one.

But yet, I can't seem to stay completely out...can I?

Sorry...

Quoted from Grandma Bear

Are we done with this one or are some people still reading?

It is hard for me to tell, Pia.

It seems most of the posts say they are some fraction of the way through, or up to some specific page -- so I get the impression that many are still reading.

So I hate to discuss spoilers -- but at the same time, maybe we should move on and let the rest play catch-up.

I guess I will just warn those still reading that they should hurry up.

Quoted from Dreamscale

But yet, I can't seem to stay completely out...can I?

Yes -- the day that Jeff runs out of comments, I suppose we might as well pull the plug and shutter the doors.

Jeff,

Your contributions on this thread make me laugh every time 'cos you literally say over and over that you don't like it, and you won't be getting involved!! ;)

Ahead of my travels, I am stretched for time, so will try and get a read done in the next day or so, if possible.

Andrew

I'm just here for the comic relief. I'm like one of those "lurkers" who read all the posts, but never say anything themsleves...only I just can't keep my mouth closed.

I haven't said that I don't like it lately, have I? I was just saying that I'm glad I'm not in this Script Club cause it's going so slowly, with so few comments.

I'd like to say I'll stay out now, but we all know that's probably not true.

I'll throw out something every now adn tehn to keep you guys entertained...

And Jeff, since you are here, let me perhaps jump-start a small conversation that should not invovle spoilers.

Do you just despise this particular script, or this genre altogether?

Do you feel this script -- or the film that might come of it -- is not financially viable?

Somebody had mentioned this script in Tim Burton's hands. Elsewhere, it was said that Guillermo del Toro was attached at some early stage -- an even better fit, perhaps -- but nothing ever came of it.

A shame, in my opinion -- but perhaps not everybody's?

Anybody can respond to this early question, of course.

Guillermo del Toro would be perfect for this but I liked the idea of Tim Burton directing with Johnny Depp in the lead role. In my opinion, that's the only way this will get made, they need one BIG name actor and director. As good a script as I think this is, I think it would be very hard to market without a star in the lead role.

It's not exactly a Lord of the Rings style trilogy, just a stand alone movie that would cost a sh*tload to make. If you were an investor, would you invest the millions they need to get this made? It's a big risk. I'm one of this scripts biggest fans and I would have doubts if I was in the investors shoes. That's why I think it's going to be a long shot for this to be produced. Without a star...Impossible.

Carrying on...

On page 51, pay attention

PHILOSTRATE
Where did you get these photos?

QUILL
I know a loose girl in the police
darkroom.

PHILOSTRATE
No... There's no evidence markers.
This is before the police arrive.

QUILL
Before they call the police, they
call me. I'm their voice. They
find a body and I'm their first call.
I snap my pics, and I'm gone before
the murder bell tolls. I don't like
being a vulture, but I do like being
a newshawk. So, that's how it goes...

There is an obvious discrepancy here between the
event happening, and the time "when" the police
arrive on the scene.

The question is:

Who determines: When the news is to be released?

It is not the police themselves, but it is Quill.
He is more important than the police; therefore
he is called first, before any iota of notification
and the bell that tolls murder thus "the bell" is
the news itself.

What makes this important information is we
recognize the importance of Quill.

On page 54,

PHILOSTRATE
If I find that you had anything to
do with Unseelie Jack - well - there’s
a ball of hot lead just aching to
give your brain a kiss.

KASMIR
In that case, my friend, having
partaken of the fruit of this “drug
factory,” with such rhapsody... you
should remember to save the last
bullet for yourself.

The dialogue is perfect because we see inside
of it the truth and heart of the matter. Our
wonderful Philostrate, is indeed guilty of
that which he condemns. This is a burden
we all must carry. You can't get anymore
real than that. Fiction? Not.

Here on page 55,

MAYOR
Faeries. Disease-carrying vermin,
the lot of them. The only reason I
tolerate this infestation is because
even vermin are part of the ecosystem
of a city. It's true.
(a venomous chuckle)
That and they sure do know how to
please a man.
(looks down)
No no no. Keep at it, pet...
(closes his eyes)
I'm not finished with you.
A moment of cool ecstasy. He rolls his eyes and exhales.

MAYOR (CONT'D)
That's it. That a girl. Be a dear
for me and swallow the goods, will
you? This upholstery's worth more
than your annual salary.

It would appear that this is a denial of His holiness.
Au contraire, mes amis. Ze beautiful moment from one
side of a precious coin. Tales.

Note that on page 57

Roan chooses not to go back to The Quarter

She believes that she will avoid danger by
staying atop the Museum. It's very clear
that there is nothing she can do to
avert the problems. Even fluttering
her wings to give lift, causes her to
come smashing down into the lobby of
the museum. And on top of her, falls the
dragon.

** I'm out of time. I'll return to this later.

Sandra El.

Quoted from Grandma Bear

I'm still reading and am finding more in it than I could have imagined.

But I have to do some other work right now. More later.

Sandra El.

If THEY can afford Van Helsing with Hugh Jackman and Kate Beckinsdale, this can definitely be made. Even a realistically dark animation (Pixar stay away from this one!) would be perferable to not doing this.

Gary

Bert, I did not despise the script, and I definitely don’t despise the genre.  I love LOTR, both in written and movie versions.  I read the novels when I was very young and loved them ever since.  I am not a fan of Harry Potter, but the genre itself is fine with me.

Since I didn’t read the entire thing, I don’t really know about the cost of it, but based on what others have said about this grand visual “new” world, I’d bet it would be expensive to say the least.  Without a built in audience, it would be a big risk, and one that shouldn’t be taken, IMO.  I think it comes down to who the target audience is.  Is this an R rated adult fantasy epic?  Or is it a PG 13 young adult flick?  If it’s the latter, I see a problem in the title alone.  Having “killing” in the title doesn’t sound like a good idea for a PG 13 kids flick.

For me, the issue, right off the bat had to do with this “killing” of a character we know nothing about, and really don’t even “see”.  If the script is all about the “detective work" to figure it out, I don’t see kids or young adults being too thrilled about it.  Seems too slow and dull, but again, I didn’t get past page 10, so I really can’t make that statement.

I am not a Tim Burton fan at all. Only flick of his I liked was “Sleepy Hollow”.  Del Toro is a very visual guy as well, and I’d say I like his work much better.  Didn’t like the Hellboy movies, but loved Blade 2, as well as Pan’s Labyrinth.  Also feel that Neil Jordan, like others have said, is hit and miss.  But, all these guys are big budget, big money people.  As Brian said, this will need a big A lister to make it have a chance, and that’s the big risk here, IMO.

I'm 20 pages in but will finish it today. I'm liking it so far. I haven't read any of the Potter books or seen the films, and haven't seen any other fantasy ones this might be influenced by. I have seen LOTR (i am still disappointed by the way the CGI dominates the third film - hopefully someone in the future will re-do it as it is meant to be in the third book) and read the books at least 50 times.

I don't mind if you guys start discussing it. I already found out by accident that Philo's missus gets butchered!! shame...their sex scene early on were pretty cool.

Good to hear you, Jeff. Place aint the same without ya, man! Go dem Niners!!!

Quoted from Dreamscale

For me, the issue, right off the bat had to do with this “killing” of a character we know nothing about, and really don’t even “see”.

Yes, I have to say your take on this is kind of wrong, Jeff.

It is a series of killings, in the same vein as Jack the Ripper.

Perhaps "Killings" would have made a better title?

At any rate, I was not really trying to introduce a discussion of a fantasy cast haha -- though most of the comments would make for inspired choices.

It was more about the commercial viability of this script -- skipping past plot points and characters for now, while so many are still reading.

I think this is a PG-13 story that wishes it were an R -- and it would be easy to make it so -- but its commercial appeal is then diminished -- as I think the biggest audience for this sort of film is young adults.

I would imagine this is a very difficult story to pitch.

Quoted from Sandra Elstree.

If I could write this well, I would be happy at having achieved a level of quality work that I would feel is very presentable.

Sandra

I agree. Why hasn't this been made yet or at least have a cast or SOMETHING?

OK, Bert, as I said, I didn't get past the first killing, and the title is decieving, since it only references 1 killing.

I'll bow out again...for awhiile...but I'll be lurking!

I would have to agree that the title is misleading but for a different reason. The title evoked for me a carnival-like atmosphere that was not present in the script. I expected bearded ladies and tattooed men and two headed snake (well I guess that was sort of there but)...

In retrospect, I probably would have liked this story more if it didn't have the human element in it. I think that's what dragged it down for me. If it were full of fanciful creatures with strange customs (like the silkie in the beginning) then it would have been a lot more interesting.

Fantastic worlds like the one portrayed in this script make it to the big screen very often. Thing is, it usually happens in the form of PG or PG-13 films that have a better chance of gaining back the big investment that these projects demand.

This seems to be the rule. Dark fantasy flicks like "Pans Labyrinth" seem to be the exception.

Not to mention most of these films are also usually based in preexisting intellectual properties (Harry Potter, Narnia, etc).

That's why I can't imagine the suits in Hollywood excited about gambling on a high budget, R-Rated, bloody, dark fantasy lacking any kind of pre-awareness from part of the audience.

Ironically, this dark tone, is what I liked the most about the script.

Unless some big name like Del Toro takes this project under his wing, I'm afraid this script will remain a writing sample for the author.

Woof, finally finished it... Read the first 20 pgs last week and was not looking forward to finising it.

It was mainly a tough read for me cuz it's loaded with brit jargon and heavy descriptions early. Then again, He painted one hell of a different world. This guy is a master at his use of the English language.

SPOILERS!!!!!

I never felt authentic motivation from the mayor to start this whole project. Especially to murder his wife in the process. With his wife and all the fairies gone, Where does this man plan on getting his fellatio from?

i loved Vignette as a character, had a hard time seeing why she would fall for Philo though. Other than him saving her life. He wasn't very likeable IMO. But he did play that hard ass type that reveals little or no emotion.i guess women can be attracted to that.

The ending seemed a little far-fetched. He did such a good job of keeping reality in check in an unreal world IMO. Would've thought the Haruspex could've dispatched of him far easier then taking him on a ride to the moon. Nice one-liner in there though.

It was a very intruiging script, unlike anything i've ever read before. I could only imagine what a budget for something like this to be done right would cost. This is like Star Wars IMO.

I do get a little tired of the politician being the bad guy. It's always the head honcho. And the lack of faith in humans, again, is brought forth here. How every other race in the Burge seem to have some peace and equality amongst themselves. Yet, some top dawg mayor feels they need to be destroyed.

Would've like a religuous background for the mayor. even a made up religion. That he was some type of fanatic. At least to separate him from the average person.

Also, I'll don't buy a scientist being the "I want to rule the world" type. As was Alcandre's case. maybe destoy the world??? Like the Uni-bomber.

This script did read fast after i got going. I did enjoy it. Characters were very fleshed out. Just thought i state the few qualms i had with it. Thanks for the recommend. He has a unique flare to his writing. Now i think i just learned a whole bunch of new words that aren't even in the dictionary??? I dunno..

I can't wait to talk specifics about this script. In general though I thought the storyline is fairly generic. IMHO, it's the world he created that has the most draw. The characters to me were not very intriguing, but I'm pretty dense, so... :)

Bert, this discussion might work better if you tell us what to discuss. Just a suggestion of course.

Either Bert tells us what to discuss or we start discussing him. 8)

If you read the first post I think bert kind of planned this as free for all. So be free everyone - talk about anything on the list in his first post.

Quoted from Mr.Z

Either Bert tells us what to discuss or we start discussing him. 8)

I did hear, on good authority, that he's a woman, despite his name. As I've mentioned previously, that would explain a lot. So is he or not?

Quoted from mcornetto

I feel that the human element is something that exists not only in form, but as a psychological manifestation that pervades the entire story. The question: What does it mean to be human? Is integral to the fabric of this piece as even the Faeries, with their lust, belong here. Kasmir belongs here, although he tempts Philostrate with the hallucinogen, Mabsynthe, and Philo succumbs, he belongs here.

The entirety of the human condition is being played upon this stage and if you take out the human element, you take out the meaning.

Regarding the title:

I agree with the title being changed. I would make strong recommendations to the writer on this. I have the name I would suggest. I just don't know it yet.

Sandra

Sandra is ducking the issue here. She may be completely correct in what she says about this script but, we need to know about 'the waters'. When you're ready SE...

Quoted from Grandma Bear

Bert, this discussion might work better if you tell us what to discuss. Just a suggestion of course.

I'll try, then.

Quoted from Z

Either Bert tells us what to discuss or we start discussing him.

And thus begins the most boring thread on the history of the boards.

Quoted from Cornetto

...bert kind of planned this as free for all

Not so much a free-for-all as not wanting to limit the discussion to my own tastes.

To toss something out, based upon previous posts, might be the character of Philostrate.

I did not see much growth there. He starts off accepting the faeries just fine (Tourmaline) and then ends up pretty much where he began, with Vignette.

I hate to keep returning to Blade Runner -- but there, Deckard grew over the course of the story -- and only came to accept the Replicants on their own terms over time.

How much better had Tourmaline been just another trick to Philostrate -- one of many in his past. He could have still been "framed" -- and then experienced similar growth over the course of the story through Vignette.

Had Philostrate been darker at the outset, I think the noir feel this author is obviously going for would have come through with more impact.

Maybe somebody agrees with this or thinks I am wrong?

Quoted from Sandra Elstree.

What does it mean to be human?

Some posts popped up while I was typing. Here again is a link to Blade Runner.

To me, this film could achieve that kind of feel so easily.

Quoted from rendevous

I did hear, on good authority, that he's a woman, despite his name. As I've mentioned previously, that would explain a lot. So is he or not?

Ha. Ask Z about that. I hear gender confusion is his "thing".

Quoted from bert

I'll try, then.

To toss something out, based upon previous posts, might be the character of Philostrate.

I did not see much growth there. He starts off accepting the faeries just fine (Tourmaline) and then ends up pretty much where he began, with Vignette.

I hate to keep returning to Blade Runner -- but there, Deckard grew over the course of the story -- and only came to accept the Replicants on their own terms over time.

How much better had Tourmaline been just another trick to Philostrate -- one of many in his past. He could have still been "framed" -- and then experienced similar growth over the course of the story through Vignette.

Had Philostrate been darker at the outset, I think the noir feel this author is obviously going for would have come through with more impact.

Maybe somebody agrees with this or thinks I am wrong?

I think because this story parallels life, one can't expect Philo's original condition to look dark. Rather, it's like a baby when it's born, looks and seems completely innocent; yet what is to be revealed comes later. Indeed, the darkness comes later.

Like a religious person who has some kind of false sense of themselves. Meaning well, but really covering up the real issues. I think the growth comes in the revelation of the darkness; not by starting out dark, although that is just the polar opposite of the same-- the reverse of the story. Where one would start with a very dark character and thus, we would ask ourselves: How? How did he become so?

It would be possible to change this and write this in reverse, but it's one and the same thing except that time runs from light to the revelation of darkness and back.

Sandra

Quoted from bert

How much better had Tourmaline been just another trick to Philostrate -- one of many in his past. He could have still been "framed" -- and then experienced similar growth over the course of the story through Vignette.

I didn't feel anything on Philo's part. But i felt for Tourmaline... She wanted him to take her away. I know that became a driving part of the story. If he would've... maybe she'd have lived. It was his driving guilt. But he didn't. I admired her adoration of him. She was a prostitute, but would have left everything for him. She never held her love back. He was a fool to ignore it IMO. That's what made it hard for me to like him. I still did nonetheless.

I did find it confusing when he got jealous waiting outside her door.... Then beats the man to a pulp. i really thought it was gonna be the two of them that gets through this story early on. Though, it did make it more painful when she was murdered. I also like Vignette very much.

Quoted from bert

Ha. Ask Z about that. I hear gender confusion is his "thing".

Someone is going to have to explain this comment to me.

Quoted from jwent6688

This is a very interesting post for me because in the game of Thief, where I've begun immersing myself into the character of Jeana-Marie, this is what I feel:

Jeana-Marie

I want Gabriel to come and physically strip me. In every sense. I want him to come and take me away from all of this. But I keep hesitating and I don't know why. I don't understand any of this and I feel bad because I'm hurting him.

**

Ok so what's it mean to cross threads? I think I'll think up a word for that, consider it and place it in The Urban Dictionary online.

Sandra

Just finished it in about 3 hours, while doing my work at the same time.  Because it was SO cool I couldn't stop reading it.  I LOVED it!

Beautiful imagery, full of grit and grime, bricks and cobblestones and gas and steam and life.  I could see the whole world sprawling on the screen.  Just the kind of place I love in the movies.

Wonderful characters created with all the failings, longings, loving, and hatred of real critters, and the way they all shared those same traits even if they weren't humans came off as real too.  Bigotry, just as we have always, and will always have, unfortunately, shown so well between fantasy races brought to life and humans was so perfectly done.

It doesn't matter to me one iota that the storyline for this didn't even pretend to try and waiver from the well-worn paths of pretty much every mega-movie ever made.  Once I saw that beautiful city peopled by all those awesome characters there on the screen, I'd be sucked right in for the ride.  What a great script.

I sure hope this gets produced, with a budget big enough to do it right!

Thanks for choosing this script, Bert.  It's awesome!

Quoted from bert

I appreciate the people that warn here of spoilers because I'm at page 60. Don't worry though if you don't use the big dirty spoilers word. I won't hold it against you.

Sandra

Quoted from steven8

Wow and Wow times ten and again!!!! This is how I feel. I'm still reading, but I just want to thank Bert for this gem.

I'm in complete ignorance when it comes to the movie world and to have this just opened to me is beyond any words that I can express.

I need to make lots of money so that I can pay Bert back. Seriously, I feel like I owe.

Sandra

Quoted from bert

I did not see much growth there. He starts off accepting the faeries just fine (Tourmaline) and then ends up pretty much where he began, with Vignette.

This is key. With all those characters that had a discriminatory attitude towards faries... why not make the protagonist one of them?

Through his investigation, aside from cracking the case, he could also have learnt the real nature of these creatures, start to respect them, and even to love one of them. This would have added a whole new dimension to Philostrate.

Kind of the "I. Robot" approach, in which the detective in charge of investigating the first murder commited by a robot was a robot-hating technophobic guy.

Quoted Text

Ha. Ask Z about that. I hear gender confusion is his "thing".

Speaking of gender confusion, I got new pics in my inbox fron an anonymous source. Bert looked pretty much as a guy, but he was dressed as a fairy. Draw your own conclusions. :o

I think that's also why this didn't work for me at all besides the reading which was a chore for me. I didn't like the main character. I felt absolutely nothing for him. I couldn't care less if he got caught, killed or whatever. I think Z's suggestion would have added to his character in a positive way, but the way he's written now leaves me cold, but I'm a cold Swede so what do I know.

Here's my take on Philo:

Readers have could claimed that Philo reacts to news from others instead of detective work but isn’t that detecting? Flute was more the Sherlock Holmes type. I saw Philo and Flute as James Bond and M.

He could have shown more emotional attachment to his faery lover but that was the point. To further burden Philo with guilt.

A fight with another of Tourmaline's clients Philo showed he was angry at himself/the world.

Some more back story on Philo’s childhood and decision to become a detective would help. His lack of emotion or cool reaction to everything isn’t in line with his past in the faery world. With his history, Philo could be a bleeding heart or activist for the faery rights movement not law and order.

Also, he used to be a Mabsynthe addict but now he’s not. Just feel off the wagon for a night? Another drunk cop who wants to stay sober. He loathes himself.

If the Mayor could have a faery wife, why is it a stigma in Philo’s mind?

Both Tourmaline and Vignette completed Philo emotionally. At the end, Philo takes Vignette away like Tourmaline wanted to do.

****

Don't get me wrong, I gushed about this script when I first read it. Still love it. I've just had some time to think about it.

Gary

OK, I've finished the script and I see this as a movie most definitely and absolutely in every way. I feel it as a movie.

It has complete substance and unification that rises to the level of The Curious Case of Benjamin Button and The Time Traveller's Wife. It is the stuff of a Ray Bradbury and Charle's Dickens. It shows it's execution within and around its words.

I will revisit this again, but for now, a few notes:

page 66

FLUTE (CONT'D)
Damn. Where does this drain lead?
Interjection by Sandra
Well, my dear Flute, you see it's like this:
INT. BAR - CONTINUED

Cornetto takes the biggest flying leap you've ever seen- grabs the gun and points at

Bush:
Cornetto
I win!

But suddenly he FALLS THROUGH the floor.

To:

INT. TANK DECK- ENGINE ROOM 104
Lying in a heap of plasma, he watches, secretly, inquisitive:

** and it's called fallus phenomenus. Very strange.
With this here:

QUILL
Well, now, this is where it starts
looking bad. They're saying it was
Guinevere Cartier.

**I'm reminded of 911 and the "reason and blame" and where it was placed.

Here:

>ALCANDRE
I am the Twiner. The Almighty

Alchemist of Chaos.
This is the same one, Choronzon in Cielo.

Page 112

>But before she can finish her plea, a group of Faeries take
to the air.

They catch Philostrate.

Cradling his limp body, they descend back to the roof.

**As he descends, the faeries ascend. It is a meeting.

More later. I have to catch a Zeppelin. Maybe Led Zeppelin you know.

Sandra

Sandra comes back in through the door after leaving. So forgetful you know.

Sandra
Oops. Here you go.

Stairway to Heaven Lyrics.

There's a lady who's sure
All that glitters is gold
And shes buying a stairway to heaven.
When she gets there she knows
If the stores are all closed
With a word she can get what she came for.
Ooh, ooh, and shes buying a stairway to heaven.

There's a sign on the wall
But she wants to be sure
cause you know sometimes words have two meanings.
In a tree by the brook
There's a songbird who sings,
Sometimes all of our thoughts are misgiven.
Ooh, it makes me wonder,
Ooh, it makes me wonder.

There's a feeling I get
When I look to the west,
And my spirit is crying for leaving.
In my thoughts I have seen
Rings of smoke through the trees,
And the voices of those who standing looking.
Ooh, it makes me wonder,
Ooh, it really makes me wonder.

And its whispered that soon
If we all call the tune
Then the piper will lead us to reason.
And a new day will dawn
For those who stand long
And the forests will echo with laughter.

If there's a bustle in your hedgerow
Don't be alarmed now,
Its just a spring clean for the may queen.
Yes, there are two paths you can go by
But in the long run
There's still time to change the road youre on.
And it makes me wonder.

Your head is humming and it wont go
In case you don't know,
The pipers calling you to join him,
Dear lady, can you hear the wind blow,
And did you know
Your stairway lies on the whispering wind.

And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our soul.
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How evrything still turns to gold.
And if you listen very hard
The tune will come to you at last.
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll.

And she's buying a stairway to heaven.

Led Zeppilin

Sandra, Sandra Sandra...OK, it's too early in Canada to be drinking heavily at the moment (at least for most). So, based on these last 2 posts, I now have to assume Psychedelics or some really good weed are in play.

What in the world does this have to do with this thread?

But then again, what in the world does my post have to do with this thread, knowing I didn't even read the script?

Please send me some of whatever you've got, pronto! I am in great need. Thanks in advance!

Seriously Jeff,

I'm not drinking anything alcoholic at the present and I don't smoke pot. Maybe I should.

What I am drinking is Oasis Classic Tropical Passion poured into a Nestle Pure Life bottle and there's a reason; so let me tell you a little story.

I had headed out to drive into Olds because I was going to go and lend support to a lady there that needs help. As I was driving, I started to notice a slight shimmy in the wheels that I wasn't sure about. I thought to myself that maybe I was just noticing something I don't usually notice. I don't usually hear every bell and whiz that comes from my vehicle. I'm a car retard. That would be, I'm a cartard.

Anyways, I had to turn around and come back and I thought it was very strange how all my plans had collapsed just like that.

I'll ask my husband to check it out, Maybe it will just be chalked up to the same thing as "missing sock" or "can't see for looking" phenomena.

What does anything have to do with this thread?

"I know! I Know! Letters! Quill's Letters!!! ;)

Sandra El.

I've just noticed a connection between the name Kasmir with the song, entitled Kashmir by Led Zeppelin. The added "H" is interesting to me.

Lyrics here-- a life vignette.

Oh let the sun beat down upon my face, stars to fill my dream
I am a traveler of both time and space, to be where I have been
To sit with elders of the gentle race, this world has seldom seen
They talk of days for which they sit and wait and all will be revealed

Talk and song from tongues of lilting grace, whose sounds caress my ear
But not a word I heard could I relate, the story was quite clear
Oh, oh.

Oh, I been flying... mama, there aint no denyin
Ive been flying, aint no denyin, no denyin

All I see turns to brown, as the sun burns the ground
And my eyes fill with sand, as I scan this wasted land
Trying to find, trying to find where Ive been.

Oh, pilot of the storm who leaves no trace, like thoughts inside a dream
Heed the path that led me to that place, yellow desert stream
My shangri-la beneath the summer moon, I will return again
Sure as the dust that floats high and true, when movin through kashmir.

Oh, father of the four winds, fill my sails, across the sea of years
With no provision but an open face, along the straits of fear
Ohh.

When Im on, when Im on my way, yeah
When I see, when I see the way, you stay-yeah

Ooh, yeah-yeah, ooh, yeah-yeah, when Im down...
Ooh, yeah-yeah, ooh, yeah-yeah, well Im down, so down
Ooh, my baby, oooh, my baby, let me take you there

Let me take you there. let me take you there

Led Zeppelin

** These are truly beautiful words!!!!

Sandra

...and Script Club has now turned into Led Zeppelin song lyrics.

Classic!

I'm kind of wondering where she's going with that as well.

While the board is unlikely to have many Zepp fans more enthusiastic than I -- "No Quarter" is the song that come to mind for me, actually -- it would be nice if we could try to spin things back on topic, Sandra.

Thanks.

Quoted from bert

OK, I won't tell you about my research on Kasmir, who is, in fact a character in this script, and Kashmir , who holds similarity with same and similar name, and I won't go into all that at all. Nope. Closed shut, tight and sealed. Pliny! Pliny the younger I believe that said: ;D

For my part I deem those blessed to whom, by favour of the gods, it has been granted either to do what is worth writing of, or to write what is worth reading; above measure blessed those on whom both gifts have been conferred. In the latter number will be my uncle, by virtue of his own and of your compositions.

But I will say that I have found connections.

Sandra

Quoted from Sandra Elstree.

What I am drinking is Oasis Classic Tropical Passion poured into a Nestle Pure Life bottle

Goin to pick up a case right now. Gotta be good.

Here, here, James! Funny. I think I might as well. Who needs alcoholic stuff or weed, if this Oasis Tropical Passion works the way it appears to.

Okay...back to discussing character. I've said my piece about Philostrate.

Vignette to me was more likable. Still didn't win me over, but she was okay.

Bottom, Flute and the Mayor, although not lovable did at least show some personality to me which made them more interesting as did Kasmir.

Quoted from Grandma Bear

This is completely crazy!!! How ca it be? You don't care for him? I care for him, but I care for you? This is nuts? I am completely confused.!

I love Pia!!!! Seriously-- What's up with it? Filial love. Husbandly love? Fatherly love.? Sisterly love?.... What is this love???

My love to you; though I can't discern.

Sandra

what can I say Sandra... we just don't like the same guys. I do love Led Zeppelin hough... ;D

Whole lotta love is my tune, but I'm weird...

Quoted from Grandma Bear

what can I say Sandra... we just don't like the same guys. I do love Led Zeppelin hough... ;D

Whole lotta love is my tune, but I'm weird...

So we both let it be. ;) Love. We're...

Quoted from grademan

Thank you, Gary. I think you've brought forth some enlightening comments here.

Regarding Philo's character and the way I envisioned him: Firstly, I feel things more than I see them. (I once walked right into a please be seated sign in a Denny's. I was 16 - I fell on top of it, landing on my hands and knees. ;D I also had a habit of walking into telephone poles - then again maybe they weren't poles but light posts) ...

But really, I felt Philo as being a philosopher and a theologian playing a cop/detective.

>INSPECTOR RYCROFT PHILOSTRATE leans against the wall next to
the map. He has a hard face, but kind eyes. He wears a
long coat and black bowler hat, and smokes a pipe.

He has been painted as a distinguished sort and his face is hard, but he has kind eyes. What does that mean? It means that he has become hardened to this place and it must be so in order that he do his job. If he were only a bleeding heart working as Dame, then he would be unable to work in his capacity.

I throw out the question? Why do you think Philo chose his particular career path?

I notice that Philo is painted as a commuter, both in the beginning and in the end. Although, in the beginning, he's on an underground train. And in the end, he's flying in a Zeppelin.

Sandra

What happened to Script Club? Did it just die withmout a wimper, or did it get transfered somewhere else?

Quoted from Dreamscale

What happened to Script Club? Did it just die withmout a wimper, or did it get transfered somewhere else?

I don't believe it's dead at all, Bert. It's just a matter of us all trying to work within the limits of time.

I for one, will be revisiting this one. I treasure it like I treasure other masterful works that I have read.

Sandra

It might help if the "host" of this one help drive the discussion forward.

We're lost without you bert. :)

It's been over a week with out a single post! What happened?

I'm still reading it so will get a review up soon.

Sandra, 'Kashmir is one of my fave Zep songs! They have so many. 'Ten Years Gone' is proabaly my pick. i would love to see some of their songs put as a soundtrack to The Lord of the Rings films - some of their lyrics are from the books.

Ooops, sorry bert...

Quoted from stevie

I can feel the connections in life through language and music and when I see them, it makes me excited. Sometimes, too excited and I fly off.

Sandra

Well, this script appears to be quite Marmite-like.

The world they inhabit is clearly anchored in the intolerance of our own. Bottom - surely named so 'cos of his stupidity - represents those amongst us who still see differences between us as means of rationalising why certain types can be deemed superior. Philostrate is the hypocrite who is unaware of the chasm between his noble intentions and his actual self. The exchange between them early on referencing "selkie-speak" was a subtle means of developing these characters.

This is a wordy script, and will delight and disappoint accordingly. The fairly harrowing opening with the death was written very well. I think the author is guilty of overwriting certain sequences, but this is a script that demands attention. As soon as people start to skim read the thing, the magic is lost. You cannot hope to become engaged in this world, unless you are yourself at the mercy of it. It's a pretty intricate world that is being developed, and you need the mindset to immerse yourself. Now, that could be down to problem with the writer, or it could just be that attention spans are not long enough - not for me to decide.

Jeff, I know you talked about "passive verbiage". Btw, I am not pick(ing) ;) on you here, but you are very hot on this, so I feel like - in good spirit - putting forth my views. The majority of produced scripts - and the writing here on 'Carnival' showcases that quality, IMO - are riddled with 'ings'. To me, it really doesn't matter. To be fair, the main issue is how well the thing reads, and if it can paint a story for you. I recall the early days of being here at SS, and seeing this 'ing' thing recurring, and then reading 'American Beauty', suffice to say, I long stopped caring about words carrying 'ing'.

The best script I have read in a while is 'Conspiracy of Fools'. The read prompted me to watch 'Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room', and that script carried many of the things that many here consider below the required benchmark of suitable scriptwriting - the unfilmables, the tense, etc. Sheldon Turner, the writer, painted many a picture, and his pending resume is a testament to just getting on with it.

Anyway, back to the script, I am 12 pages in and in need of watching 'Wall Street', so will finish this off later. That in itself is evidence, I guess, that this hasn't grabbed me to finish in one sitting, but then fantasy-type stories will never be my bag per se.

But there we go.

Andrew

Quoted from Andrew

Thanks Andrew for getting on board and studying this. Your explanation of surrendering to it and going into the words is what I completely understand.

People won't get it if they have not developed an internal world. Much the same way some people in our world have no use for computers, people who don't understand internality will not understand the sublimity within the script.

I don't want to cheapen anything by exposing it, but then too, if I don't to some degree, then where is the value in that?

In the end though, people have to and will come to their own conclusions and this is necessary at any given stage.

I look forward to your comments and thanks to Jeff for resurrecting this though we are all at a loss for time, but who cares, we're above time after all.

Sandra

Andrew, as I always say (well, maybe not always, but quite frequently), "the rules" definetly do not apply to everyone. Pros break rules all the time.  They can.  It doesn't matter. It really doesn't even matter whether or not they write a good or great script, as evidenced by all the crap that we're constantly spoon fed.

It doesn't mean that it's right though.  It also doesn't mean that just because a script is penned by a consumate pro, that it's good...or even decent.

The rules that I adhere to and stress to others are rules that make sense.  Things that make a script look and read better.  Passive verbiage is something that should be avoided when possible.  Asides and unfilmables are things that should be avoided pretty much all the time, because tehy serve absolutely no purpose, other than in literary terms, as in the read.  If something doesn't transfer to film, inclduing it in a script that only has so much available space is a waste of space.

There are obviously examples of passive verbiage that works, and there's even examples of unfilmables that add to the script, but it's few and far between, IMO.  Both are examples of amateur writing, and for those of us who don't, and won't get many opportunities, why would we want to jeopardize oursleves with things that could be a turnoff?

The cool thing is that we can all wrte our scripts exactly the way we want to.

Quoted from Dreamscale

I feel the need to clarify what some people call "passive verbiage".

In my understanding, you are all using the wrong term.

Passive verbiage is when you put the subject at the end of the sentence as in these two comparisons.

Jake hit the ball.

If

Jake hit the ball

Then this is not passive because "Jake" is the subject of the sentence.

However:

If

The ball is hit by Jake

Then

The ball has switched position.

You can often identify this with the use of "by" although there may be other examples as well. I am going very basic here.

When you guys often speak of "passive verbiage"

What you are actually referring to is the use of present participles.

But you have to remember the context because present participles are sometimes gerunds and that is like a noun and another ball game.

The basic idea is:

When you write for instance:

Jane is running to the exit.

Don't write it in present participle form but:

Write:

Jane runs to the exit.

Another however though....

If you want the reader to feel the continuity of the action, I believe you are better off writing the present participle form.

As:

She's sitting.

Over

She sits.

The reason being is:

If I want to lengthen and illuminate the idea of the continuity, the span of time, the waiting...

Then I believe personally that sitting works better.

I hope this helps and if any grammarians are out there to contribute, then please do so and help us out.

Sandra

Just to clarify, Sandra, I didn't offer my own views on what "passive verbiage" is, but rather raise Jeff's usage.

A grammar discussion would probably be best suited elsewhere, and it certainly wasn't my intention to turn this into a debate on anything but the script. I just used this thread 'cos Jeff had referenced "passive verbiage" earlier in the comments.

Andrew

passive verbiage, passive smerbiage.

Funny, cause I started using that term awhile back and I thought that it wasn't really accurate for what we were talking about.  BUT, passive verbiage has taken on the meaning, for me at least, as using passive verbs.

I agree with Sandra in her example, and I have alway thought that there are a few passive verbs that work better..at times...and based on what is trying to be conveyed.

"Sitting" and "running" are 2 tough ones, cause depending on what the writer is really trying to get across, eitehr could be the right choice.  BUT, as I said, it's few and far between, and passive verbs normally do not work better, read better, or sound better.

Scripts are meant to convery action. Passive verbs normally do not do this.  Thus, I say don't write passively.

Sorry, but at least Script Club is back to life!

Quoted from Dreamscale

at least Script Club is back to life!

Amen to that!

Now, where is that wily fox, Mr. Newcomer.

Andrew

Quoted from Dreamscale

I agree that it's good to see scriptclub back to life.

What we need to define is the de facto word that most of us know means "present participle when the "other" will suffice nice ;D" ...

By this I mean, we're talking about verb tense and not the construction or placement of the subject in a sentence.

We want to try and write in simple past, present or future tense.

The reason I've included say for instance, future and past is because we may want to include asides such as this:

John cooks supper alone, as he cooked supper alone last night and a hundred nights before. And tomorrow too, he will cook supper alone again.

In the previous, you will see all simple tenses. And:

All have value as the 2nd and 3rd constructions in the tense amplify the fact that John is very alone.

Now even if it were:

is cooking, has cooked and will be cooking

It might still survive on the simple merit of the construction which amplifies his character, but it's a little more difficult to get through perhaps.

At this point, it's a creative choice and decision.

I will end this now and it can be moved to a grammar thread.

Sandra

Yes, Sandra, my love, but your example, "John cooks supper alone, as he cooked supper alone last night and a hundred nights before. And tomorrow too, he will cook supper alone again.", is a classic example of that damn unfilmable again. No one would get that in a filmed version, unless you went with a flashback, and sicne you didn't sp[ecify a flashaback, it's an unfilmable and it's a waste.

Aren't I an ass? Yes, I am. But I'm a consistent ass. And my ass is my ass. Not a jack ass, but just my ass and the as that I am.

How's that, SE?

Quoted from Dreamscale

Asides and unfilmables are things that should be avoided pretty much all the time, because tehy serve absolutely no purpose, other than in literary terms, as in the read.

I am going to call Jeff on this one.

Scripts are meant to be read.  This script, to me, is an example of a script as literature.  One of the reasons I am so fond of it.

If you can enhance the experience of the reader, and make the reading more pleasurable, I see that as a good thing.  Readers, be they casual or pro, like to be entertained.

As Andrew adroitly points out, that is not for everyone.

But then, you cannot please everyone.

When done well, the judicious use of unfilmable aspects can contribute to the tone, and fill in many blanks that a robotic recounting of events sometimes fails to capture.

Now, this can be done poorly, and it can be done too frequently, and all too often, it can be done inappropriately.  All of these detract, very true.

But in the hands of a talented author -- who understands what he is doing -- for a specific effect -- they can also be quite rewarding.

Dismissing the technique out of hand and stating flatly that it is never to be used is removing a tool from your toolbox.

Over time, after reading many scripts -- both good and bad -- I have come to the conclusion that this is incorrect, and it is bad advice.

Quoted from bert

Scripts are meant to be read.  This script, to me, is an example of a script as literature.

If you can enhance the experience of the reader, and make the reading more pleasurable, I see that as a good thing.  Readers, be they casual or pro, like to be entertained.

When done well, the judicious use of unfilmable aspects can contribute to the tone, and fill in many blanks that a robotic recounting of events sometimes fails to capture.

Now, this can be done poorly, and it can be done too frequently, and all too often, it can be done inappropriately.  All of these detract, very true.

But in the hands of a talented author -- who understands what he is doing -- for a specific effect -- they can also be quite rewarding.

Dismissing the technique out of hand and stating flatly that it is never to be used is removing a tool from your toolbox.

Over time, after reading many scripts -- both good and bad -- I have come to the conclusion that this is incorrect, and it is bad advice.

Very, very well put.

Did you hear that? Did you? Yeah, you, there in the front, the one picking your nose.

Bert, I do not disagree with you on this...BUT...I don't completely agree either.

My comments are not based on this script, or this writer.  My comments are completely based on reviewing and trying to help writers in general.  You are definitely correct...sometimes, done correctly, appropriately, whatever, anything can work well.  But usually, that's not the case.  And usually, they are a complete waste of space and come off poorly.

Obviously, I am not in the right here, commenting on this thread, but I had to respond to Andrew's post.  My bad.

I'll throw this out, and it probably won't work for for anyone who who is not American (and I don't mean anything against our non American friends out there, especially, Andrew).

Look at College football players who are trying to go Pro.  All the people in the know are grading them on how they do things...how they do things correctly.  It doesn't matter how many games they win, how many Championships they win, or how many yards they pile up.  They look at how they do their stuff compared to how the greats have done their stuff.

I was watching Inside NFL tonight on Showtime.  They were talking about Jay Cutler, for instance, and how he doesn't "properly" throw the ball.  Same with Tom Brady, actually.  Bottom line is that you don't "teach" young QB's to throw the ball incorrectly.  You teach them to throw the ball in a classic sense.  Many times, very talented guy, learn their own style, and they make it work for them.  Talent rises...always,,,but let's understand that there's a way to go about things, and from the bottom up, we all need to learn and understand why we write the way we write.

There will always be exceptions, and that's cool and fine.  But there's a reason why things are the way they are, and they make sense if you really analyze it and think about it.

Again, do what you want...write how you feel.  Chances are, if you know what you're doing, and you write a great story, it will work.  But why constantly try to buck the system?  If you honestly believe there's a reason not to do something, I applaud you.  Do it your way.  But otherwsise, do it the "right way".  It makes sense, at least to me, and I can go on for hours and hours on why that is...at another time, in another thread.

Hope this makes sense to you guys.

Quoted from bert

Dismissing the technique out of hand and stating flatly that it is never to be used is removing a tool from your toolbox.

Over time, after reading many scripts -- both good and bad -- I have come to the conclusion that this is incorrect, and it is bad advice.

Here, here.

In my time as a frequenter of these boards there has been plenty of "advice" handed out on how scripts should be written. Some of this advice has been solid (there are off course some good writers here) but some of the advice I have been given has been downright detrimental to my writing. This has been the biggest, no unfilmables is clearly the biggest misconception in screenwriting and I am constantly amazed that this "rule" is still alive and gasping for breath on this forum.

Over the last few months while taking a break from this site I have read lots of scripts and I can say without any doubt in my mind that nobody gives a shit about 99% of the rules that I used to let guide my screenwriting. The cinemas are full of movies made from spec scripts by writers that more of less do what they want in order to get their story across and they are usually much better scripts for it.

Quoted from Murphy

I hate unfilmmables and always will do. In my opinion they add nothing to a script as by definition the mood created in the script cannot be transferred to the screen.

It guarantees that the script will be better than the film and introduces the possibility that important information gets lost. The simple fact of the medium is that everything has to be got across either visually or audibly. There is no way around that at all. Abstract thoughts belong in short stories, novels or poetry.

I agree with what David Mamet says in Bambi vs Godzilla. They have corrupted the quality of script writing by making promises that can't be fulfilled by filmmakers and have resulted in an idea that the scripts that read the best make the best films, which isn't necessarily the case.

For example in this script there is a line about the "mermaid" that she speaks in some frequencies that can't be heard by humans. It's an interesting idea and Sandra was really taken with it, the problem is you've got to make a sound that will ONLY exist within human frequencies. The actual film will be the opposite of what the author wrote.

The idea is good enough that it should be in the film (IE someone should say it in dialogue. The idea that a creature can talk almost subconsciously to someone is great, but it's completely lost from the final product as it is).

The closest you will get to the idea without re-working the script is by having a weird, unearthly sound similar to the one used in Harry Potter with the mermaids egg thing. It will just be a noise, all the cleverness of the writing will be gone without a re-write.

In an argument on the "Breaking the Rules" thread, Tierney once commented that these things helped actors by helping to define their roles. That seemed like an interesting idea. However once I started working with professional actors I realised that they literally draw lines through anything that directs them on the page, without even reading it.

Why? It narrows their creative ability. They will play it out numerous ways, sometimes completely subverting the meaning that the author intended to find the most interesting ways of performing the scene.

To help you se it from a filmmakers point of view:

An example I've used before was something like this:

"She looks like the girl who blew you out on prom night".

Some people would deny that this is unfilmmable as it raises an image of a certain type of woman. That's true. However the actual abstract thought is incapable of being translated to the screen.

Shoot the scene exactly as you picture it. Show it to an audience and link their brains up to a machine that allows you to see their thoughts. What do you get when the actress walks on stage? Thoughts like, "Oh look it's that girl from Melrose Place!" or "She's hot", whatever. Zero percent of people will get the abstract thought ""She looks like the girl who blew you out on prom night".

Zero percent.

Why?

She ISN'T the girl that blew you out on prom night. You might not even know what a prom is if you are not from America. She's an actress.

That lovely, witty bit of writing is gone from the film, no ifs, no buts.

All you are left with is something like "A subjectively attractive woman enters. She looks a bit of a tart".

By writing in that way you are instantly reducing the quality of the film. Or rather, you are introducing a substantive difference in quality between the reading and the viewing experience.

It's the main reason why so many unfunny comedy films come out. They are hilarious to read, but all of the comedy is in the descriptive writing, not in the dialogue or on screen.

Now, I'm not saying you shouldn't use them. But they are essentially there for only two reasons. One to clarify something to a reader/producer. IE making it really obvious what someone is thinking so they don't miss the subtext. Or two to make the script scream out what a clever and entertaining writer you are. Readers get bored and this kind of writing will help get you noticed. A lot of people can't separate the pleasure they receive from reading from the evaluation of how good the film will be that comes from it.

Dramatically speaking though they are worse than useless.

Personally though, I would advise that you use them. Anything that makes the script read better will help people think that your script is better. That will necessarily result in you having a higher percentage chance of making a sale. It's also now so common that not doing it make make your script look less inspired than its competitors.

As ever, there is a difference between what is technically or critically right and what the reality is.

I would just urge people to be aware of the dangers to the final product of using them. A film can only be seen and heard, any abstract thoughts have to come from one of those two senses. You cannot transmit specific abstract thoughts in the same way that you can with novel writing.

Anyway, I've said my piece. I don't want to derail the conversation. I just sometimes feel that people don't understand the concept from a filmmaking point of view and whatever your views on something I feel it's better to understand the reason why some people are so vehemently against it, so you can make conscious decisions on your writing.

In short, use it as additional seasoning to a script, don't make a habit of losing your best stuff in descriptive passages that can't be recreated.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films

I hate unfilmmables and always will do. In my opinion they add nothing to a script as by definition the mood created in the script cannot be transferred to the screen.

Dec, my friend,

To say that is to say that words transfer nothing to a person's greater reality as a whole. Ask yourself:

What does the letter "A" mean in and of itself? Or the number "1"? It would seem they are just abstract things and surely, no animal can do such things as add and subtract and read and play music.

So too, at certain levels, man evolves to the extent where he can derive meaning and film the apparent unfilmables.

Like air, we most certainly don't see it, but only its certain effects and feel affected by it; likewise, we experience a transference from word to existence in reality which thus entertains and involves all aspects of perception emotionally and otherwise and eventually beyond to those aspects currently hidden from us.

Sandra

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films

It guarantees that the script will be better than the film and introduces the possibility that important information gets lost. The simple fact of the medium is that everything has to be got across either visually or audibly. There is no way around that at all. Abstract thoughts belong in short stories, novels or poetry.

If that's the case, maybe it's time for a change?

As in someone who might have once said:

Children should be seen and not heard.

Maybe we should listen to that child eh? ;)

Or pay attention to the words inside of Killing on Carnival Row:

He holds it up to an oil lamp bolted to the wall to read the
beautifully calligraphed handwriting.

Sandra

Quoted from Sandra Elstree.

Dec, my friend,

To say that is to say that words transfer nothing to a person's greater reality as a whole. Ask yourself:

What does the letter "A" mean in and of itself? Or the number "1"? It would seem they are just abstract things and surely, no animal can do such things as add and subtract and read and play music.

So too, at certain levels, man evolves to the extent where he can derive meaning and film the apparent unfilmables.

Like air, we most certainly don't see it, but only its certain effects and feel affected by it; likewise, we experience a transference from word to existence in reality which thus entertains and involves all aspects of perception emotionally and otherwise and eventually beyond to those aspects currently hidden from us.

Sandra

No, it isn't.

This is the crucial thing. Words can express abstract thoughts. They can enter directly into your consciousness in the form that they are.

The mermaids voice in this instance will be created digitally on a computer. It will be created on a specific frequency (probably between 44 and 48HZ) and exhibited in that format through Dolby Digital or equivalent.. The film medium cannot physically translate those words into a concrete reality. It is impossible.

You can still get the abstract thought across by including it in the film in terms of dialogue. Philostate simply says to Bottom that the sound they create is beyond the perception of human ears and that some say that it can effect you.

Or you can visually show that the words effect the characters in some way beyond the sense of the word. You introduce a vignette and two voices appear, one the obviously subconcious voice that speaks to the soul and the other the "normal" voice and you have a strange transition to show what is happening. EG LOTR when Cate Blanchett talks to Frodo telepathicallty whilst addressing the whole crowd.

That's the unavoidable reality of the medium of film. It is visual and it is audible.

You can write anything you want, but unless it is translatable to the film medium, the chances are that it will be lost in the transition.

As it stands it's meaningless guff. Interesting in its own way, but an example of literary merit and not screen writing.

I appreciate that you wan't to break out of the confines of the medium, but that's what it is.

As with all mediums, the skill is in using their limitations and translating the abstract thought in your mind into that medium so that it can be understood and can survive the process. You can't take literary shortcuts with film. When writing prose you can leap in an instant to anywhere in the Universe, internally or externally. To do the same with film you have to respect it's limitations and work with them, not try and pretend that they don;t exist.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films

I hate unfilmmables and always will do. In my opinion they add nothing to a script as by definition the mood created in the script cannot be transferred to the screen.

At the end of your post it seems you address using "unfilmables" so you won't get left behind. Film is all about mood. Music. Cinematography. Acting. So how do you convey that in a spec without venturing into other taboo territory? How do you keep your descriptions to a minimum and your page count at 110, and still convey what you need to convey?

If you read the script, and get a mood from it, how do you convey that to the screen? Pick melancholy music over sanguine? Different color of paint on the set? Actor lines given with a sense of awe, or awe shit?

If you get to pitch the story, your energy better be there, in the proper mood, to convey what you want to convey.

It's bait on a hook.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films

You might not even know what a prom is if you are not from America.

If you're writing from a western, or American point of view, you're writing for a western or American audience. So while technically correct, the statement is still technical and serves only to support your unfilmable arguement.

I like Carnival Row for the world it created. Anything less might not have created that world in my mind. I can see that world in my mind, magic dust and all. People getting hung up on the technicalities is still getting hung up. I really like this story. It's the same, but different.

What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. ~Ecclesiastes 1:9

"How to Create Remarkable Content When There's Nothing New Under the Sun
by James Chartrand

Being creative in a world where nothing is new is difficult. We all want to be the one to shake the earth and move mountains with our brilliant ideas and thundering blog posts, but it's tough.

It's all been said. Finding the angle is a challenge.

Sure, giving our work a personal voice helps to be original. It's much more fulfilling to read a post that carries personality and a sense of the writer's voice. After all, each of us is unique, with unique thoughts and perceptions that make us different from the next person.

Is your own voice enough, though?

When you're writing about common concepts that anyone can find in a textbook, you aren't being original. The textbook author probably wasn't original either. The concepts and theories we strive to put forward as different have been done repeatedly from every angle possible.

'Beating a dead horse' takes on new meaning with over 17 million blogs. "

Buddy cop stories.

Love stories.

Mysteries.

Now Zombie and Slasher flicks.

This comic says it all.

So in the end, getting the story across is what counts. Bert said it best. I think it worthwhile to overlook what is termed by some as bad grammar, format, all that kind of stuff, for the story. Then go back and edit the shit out of the bad grammar (er? or ar?) and format. Use words judiciously. Of course if you, the reader, is lost due to bad grammar and format, then we've just gone down a different if/then path. Like I said, it's bait. You have to bait the hook correctly, or ~~fish~~ sharks ~~aren't even going to~~ won't ~~pay attention~~ ~~bite~~ ~~attack~~ bite .

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films

No, it isn't.

This is the crucial thing. Words can express abstract thoughts. They can enter directly into your consciousness in the form that they are.

Exactly!!!! You are saying the exact thing that I am saying!!! And I wholeheartedly agree.

Sandra

Quoted from cloroxmartini

If you get to pitch the story, your energy better be there, in the proper mood, to convey what you want to convey.

What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. ~Ecclesiastes 1:9

[i]"How to Create Remarkable Content When Thereï¿½s Nothing New Under the Sun
by James Chartrand

Being creative in a world where nothing is new is difficult. We all want to be the one to shake the earth and move mountains with our brilliant ideas and thundering blog posts, but itï¿½s tough.

Itï¿½s all been said. Finding the angle is a challenge.

My dear Clorox, you have added again your wonderful voice and I'm thankful.

I'll add that not only must one bring their energy and human sacrifice to the pitch, if there ever be one, but to the work itself. That's something above just hammering away at the keys. There's a different hammering, drumming that's going on and that's the beat we need to listen to.

Thank you again. I loved the comic you presented here.

Sandra

Spinning things back to "Killing on Carnival Row" --

I spent about 15 minutes scrolling through it -- looking for an "essential" unfilmable -- so I could argue for its inclusion -- but I could not find one.

And I was sure I would. Easily. But no.

Some may find this script overwritten -- true enough -- but does it contain any unfilmable elements in its language?

Is there anyone who has an example?

Not from another script -- we all know what they look like -- I am talking about a specific example from this script -- the one we are talking about.

Quoted from bert

No, it's fine. As a matter of fact the thing I mentioned about the noise isn't even in there. ;D

When I read Sandra's earlier critique of it I seemed to remember it being part of the description of the sound, whilst it's actually part of the dialogue.

Minus points for me.

We're all good.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films

Minus points for me.

Haha -- no points are assigned here -- unless you count the demerits for Jeff just because we can -- and I in no way meant to imply the discussion was not good -- or useful.

Excellent points from both sides of the fence that eventually sort of end up in the middle.

My main point was that I so expected to find unfilmable elements in this script, and was quite surprised that I did not when I actually went hunting for them.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films

Which critique were you referring to? What number is the post?

Sandra

Dec, Great post. I do not disagree with you at all. I understand fully while the "rule" is there but like anything in life you tend not to get anywhere when you are the only one not breaking the rules. Someone you have to join 'em. But you more or less said that anyway. Cheers.

Bert, I can understand fully why you liked this script so much, it is written very well. I have only read the first 10 pages or so and the opening was superbly put together.

I held of reading the comments until I had read the start of this script and Terry Pratchett indeed was in my mind while reading, even in the very beginning when describing the city it reminded me if of a Discworld novel. I was not surprised to see others pick up on this too.

I liked Pratchett books when I was younger, not however for the fantasy but purely for the humour. I share something with Jeff here in that this is not really my cup of tea. But it is written so well and is probably worth reading so will see if I can read some more....

Quoted from Sandra Elstree.

Which critique were you referring to? What number is the post?

Sandra

Post 33 my dear.

You mentioned how much you liked it and I thought it was a line of description, but it was dialogue.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films

Post 33 my dear.

You mentioned how much you liked it and I thought it was a line of description, but it was dialogue.

I do love this script completely. I went back to the post you are referring to now. In this excerpt from it:

But I'm getting ahead. Let's go back to page 3

to the solid transition on page 3 with the use of the aerial view.

I can imagine us soaring along with the V.O. and coming down into a fade that becomes "the web" of which

The Philostrate speaks--

Here, we realize now, that we are looking at a
map in the underground train station

When the Philostrate proclaims,

And that's The Burgue for you, A-Z, we realize that this is where we really were all along.

There must be a name for these kinds of transitions, but I don't know what they are.

The writer, identifies the "source" and "location" of the voice over, relays it and then transports us magically back to it's source. (We mostly are unaware of these shifts unless we study it).

I think you are referring to what I have in bold above? This, being what you thought was not placed in dialogue, but is? Alright, I understand. You were concerned with it being an aside outside of dialogue. I tend to throw those around in my scripts rather brashly I'm afraid. You really would be very angry with me. ;D But it is important to realize it all within context and make calculations based upon many factors. One should weigh it all over carefully.

I tend to think of this script as not being just written so much as it is engraved, polished and painted.

Sandra

I don't really remember this script being filled with unfilmables. That wasn't my problem with it. I just found the reading itself to be a chore and I did not "love" the way it was written. Of course there's a possibility there's a language barrier with me there. However I do read a lot of books and if this had been a book, I would have put it down fairly quick. In other words, the writing here didn't work for me on any level. I am fascinated and amazed that some think it's amazing piece of writing.

The story itself was bland to me as well. Very average. The only thing to me that was different at all was the setting...

Perhaps we can move on to specifics to discuss? What about character and dialogue?

Quoted from Grandma Bear

The story itself was bland to me as well. Very average. The only thing to me that was different at all was the setting...

And setting is what made it for me. Like I said, the same, only different. I bought in to the world presented.

A Scotland Yard detective investigates a series of bizarre murders. Check, please.

Quoted from Grandma Bear

I felt the work from a different place. That kind of thing doesn't just happen; it takes time and you just never know when it's going to happen or not. You can be in a state of flubux for awhile.

Sandra

Quoted from Sandra Elstree.

Hi Sandra, just to clarify, it was actually the line of Dialogue from the "mermaid". (Moira, I think?).

She mentioned the sounds that humans couldn't hear. For some reason I remembered it as being a line of description about the quality of her voice, rather than an actual delivered line.

My bad, as you Americans would say.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films

You're a sweetheart and I'm not an American, but a universal citizen. Go figure eh? ...

Thank you so much Dec,

I love you guys all,

Sandra

Hi guys. Have just finished reading this script. I read some of the first comments when this thread started but didn't wade through the pages since.

First impressions - i liked it and thought it was welll written. It didin't take me long to get through it and there were no real draggy bits that I'd normally skip over.
I could picture the images and scenes in my head vividly whilst reading.

However I think this as a film would be risky. Much as there is a massive audience for the fantasy worlds it depicts, I feel watching it would be hard to follow. There is a lot of 'foreign' names and settings whcih can inhibit the cinmeatic experience.
It would be better to be released as a novel maybe and then the response could be gauged.
Also it has some violent and sex scenes that would give it definitely an 'M' rating if not an 'MA' depending on how much they showed. note - these are Aussie ratings i'm using; obviously the U.S has a different system.

No, overall this was nicely written. The writer has really done his outline on this. Each character, plot arc and setting has been crafted; it wouldn't surprise if we learned the author had written a very detailed account of it first.
There is a lot of deference paid to other works of the genre, although i don't a lot about some of the ones mentioned in earlier posts. The China Mievelle novel 'Perdido Street Station', with it's odd creatures gets a good nod to, IMHO anyway.

Sure, the actual story is cliched, and been done many times in Hollywood (the wrongfully accused trying to prove his innocence while trying to catch the real killer, etc, etc). But the writer creates this compelling world and, well, i really got into it.

Just for the hell of it, i'd give it 8/10.

Now i'm gonna re-read all the posts.

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