Is it really that important?

Posted by: rock., May 18th, 2012, 5:34pm

Posted by: bert, May 18th, 2012, 5:52pm; Reply: 1

When people use words like, "absolutely never", they are seldom correct.

I would pretty much agree with "cut to", though, which really adds nothing but more black on your pages.

Not sure what they mean about flashbacks, either.

The best thing to do -- if possible -- is to check out a few of their scripts.

After that, you can guage how seriously you want to take their advice.

That is the yardstick I use, anyway.

Posted by: Forgive, May 18th, 2012, 6:17pm; Reply: 2

Quoted from bert

When people use words like, "absolutely never", they are seldom correct.

... and people get very excited about these things -- but as far as camera angles go - certainly on a spec script I'd do every thing I can to leave them out for two reasons:

1) Creatively there's normally a work-around.

2) The script represents what you see on screen - you don't see a camera, so why mention it? It just really takes you out of the story - if you are caught up in the story - let's say something romantic, and you write CAMERA PULLS IN - then you've suddenly got an image of some dirty-big camera-man when you previously had this cozy romantic image - it just doesn't play right.

When I'm reading a script, it plays in my mind as it would on screen. CUT TO's aren't needed.

Add to that, the director's vision may be totally different to yours - if you do a shooting script, you may well have discussed ideas with the director and have some idea of what they want, what they don't want, and what your creative input is ... you're not offering your work to the general market at this stage, so you've got more flexibility.

Before you hit that stage, I'd keep the script as 'clean' as possible - in some ways it's just etiquette - your script is for a very 'general' audience as a spec, so avoid stuff that may well turn people off unnecessarily.

That's my take on it.

Posted by: Ledbetter (Guest), May 18th, 2012, 7:29pm; Reply: 3

Someone once told me...

Writers write...

Directors direct...

Cameramen film...

Which one are you?

If you're all three, great, you can write whatever you want in a script but I understand it to be somewhat of a deterrent to your script if you add all the extra fluff.

A spec script should be about the story. If it gets picked up, people who get paid a hell of a lot more than us will figure out direction and camera angles.

Shawn.....><

Posted by: Baltis. (Guest), May 18th, 2012, 7:47pm; Reply: 4

I'd ask him a few questions in rebuttle...

1.  Can you show me how to properly format a flashback?  Anyone who ever tells you to not use them seldom knows how to format for one -- hence why they try to tell you not to use them.

2.  Are you reading Blake Snyder again?

If they answer with No and yes... continue to

3.  Can you leave me alone now?

Posted by: ghost and_ghostie gal, May 18th, 2012, 7:50pm; Reply: 5

As I have trumpeted a thousand times... advice is not a straight-up, one person one vote, democracy. Take the people who are giving it, and weight them according to relevance.

And in this case... whoever "they are" is clearly giving out inaccurate information. That's right, i said it... whoever you are... identify yourself.

Ghost

Posted by: Ledbetter (Guest), May 18th, 2012, 7:50pm; Reply: 6

Quoted from Baltis.

2. Are you reading Blake Snyder again?

Ha!

Balt-

You got a real hard on for that man, don't ya!

What he ever do to you. ;-)

Shawn.....><

Posted by: Ledbetter (Guest), May 18th, 2012, 7:57pm; Reply: 7

Quoted from ghost and_ghostie gal

That's right, i said it... whoever you are... identify yourself.

Ghost

Yehaa! Get a rope...

Ghostie's on a rampage.

I'm in! let's get this fu&$er!!!

Shawn.....><

Posted by: bert, May 18th, 2012, 8:21pm; Reply: 8

Haha...you guys need to settle down. Although I am detecting a whiff of Friday night liquors.

I am 80% sure I know who it is anyway.

I will drop it in a PM to Led in case it is ever revealed -- though I thouroughly discourage Rock from ever doing doing so....

PMs are just that -- personal.

Posted by: Grandma Bear, May 18th, 2012, 8:24pm; Reply: 9

I love Friday night brawls! ;D

Posted by: Ledbetter (Guest), May 18th, 2012, 8:55pm; Reply: 10

Quoted from bert

Haha...you guys need to settle down. Although I am detecting a whiff of Friday night liquors.

No booze for me. Been in the dentist chair all afternoon.

It's a PAINKILLER Friday for this guy, rederning me far softer than normal.

Be gentle.

Shawn.....><

Posted by: leitskev, May 18th, 2012, 10:25pm; Reply: 11

I think I can guess who sent that message. I won't, don't worry Bert. But it looks like the language of a member who's been active lately, a new member I think.

Posted by: Ledbetter (Guest), May 18th, 2012, 10:35pm; Reply: 12

You're good Kev...

Shawn.....><

Posted by: rock., May 18th, 2012, 11:29pm; Reply: 13

That was actually sent to me by a member on Zoetrope. Just fyi.. :)

Posted by: Sandra Elstree., May 18th, 2012, 11:42pm; Reply: 14

Quoted from Ledbetter

Thanks for the <arrow" of astute direction, Shawn!!

Recently, I had some good advice re: Real Counterfeit Witches of the 21st century. It was:

Pick up a camera and try shooting the scenes.

I say it's good advice not because I want to do that, but because I need to "think" more in the terms of a camera man/woman. This kind of advice is really important, but some people might not understand how it is meant to be taken. I get that.

Before I digress too much as always, I want to say that I would rather share worlds with others and not try and "be" them. (Pick up a camera and become the CAMERA PERSON) In other words, I don't want to re-invent myself or others. It's like this: Would I like to turn Einstein into Lennon? Lennon into Van gogh? The band Queen into Nickelbakck? The Beatles into Crowded House? Etc...

Ultimately, you, The Writer, need to determine your role, be it solely writer, or a combination of any of the above mentioned roles in the post (as above) or any other numerous possibilities that could be conceived by way of immeasurable counting, virtual, physical, or otherwise.

However:

I do hold sincerely to Ledbetter's words.

I think one must determine their primary forte.

This does not mean that they must give up other avenues of interest; rather, it just means they have decided, for themselves, that one curvature appeals to themselves more than others. In other words: They have identified a "part" or "parts" of their strength/s.

Should we all be so lucky? If we are, then let us ponder that.

Sandra

Posted by: jagan@spundana.org, May 19th, 2012, 12:04am; Reply: 15

Quoted from rock.

I got a message from someone who was in the process of reviewing my script, and it said:

"There are some things you should immediately fix in your script then update your posting. It will make reading your script much easier for reviewers.
Delete any and all camera directions.
JR: He or she is not completely inaccurate here. CAM angles are definitely for shooting script. But, if you know your craft and can write directly a "Shooting script" then no issue at all, but the director might feel "Oh this is pretty condescending to me and my craft". (Possibly).

They do not go in a spec script ever...
JR: That is also not completely inaccurate. He / she might be helping you here with these completely unimportant things in our opinion, but ask a reader, it might make them sleep or toss a great script due to the initial pages written poorly.

, and they also needlessly waste script space.
JR; Probably, they do. There's no harm in being precise and concise in writing scripts.

Delete all the CUT TO, DISSOLVE TO.
JR: This I disagree, CUT TO"s and Dissolve TOs: are great elements for the one who writes the original story.

Absolutely never put those in a script.
JR: That part is not true, if you have many of those then your title might change to CUT TO: or DISSOLVES TO:.

Also, limit your FLASHBACKS to one. They are used rarely in scripts, and only if absolutely necessary."
JR: That's a good advice. Too many flashbacks bother the readers and film makers who want to make your movie. Why bog them down? Anyway, the movie scenes are not all FILMED in the order you write. There is something called Script break down and the Line Producer does all that before the shooting draft goes through several drafts, pages are omitted, scenes are omitted and colors change, when the final green pages come in, the shooting script looks quite different than what you wrote as a Spec. So, not a bad advice at all.

Yeah, sure, I know that they're not necessary in spec scripts especially since the director would decide those, but is it really that big a violation that this person makes it seem?  Does it really make it that much more difficult to read if there is a transition written in?
JR: Do, whatever your intuition asks you to.

I also found it especially strange that he said to limit flashbacks
JR: That is a good advice, I trust it too.

and that they are rarely used.  Flashbacks are done in films all the time, especially depending on what type of film it is.
(JR: There's something called editing and post production)

I'm just curious, because a lot of people makes it seem like a huge no-no if you write things like that into your script, but to me it seems very minor.
JR: It depends on who is giving these advice too, if it is coming from an experienced film maker who has been on sets for long hours? Then take it. Otherwise, make your film and then tell him / her "You are full of it!"

To me, it's just like me indulging my creative visions.  If a director wants to film it and add his own camera directions, then that's fine with me, but until that actually happens, what's wrong with doing it for now?
JR: Then, you can direct it too. Direction is like "The Cuisine is to be finally made into a COOKED form of delicacies, from a Recipe". If you can make that transition, then fear not, write what you wish to. If you want the directors to take care of that, that's what they are paid to do, and why not?

Just to clarify, I don't flood my scripts with camera directions, I only rarely use them if I envision a scene a particular way, but I don't do that often.
JR: Avoid CAM angles to the maximum, yes. It is better without them in your SPEC script for sure. Use them 'sparingly'.

I just wanted ask this because this guy made it seem like it's a really bad thing to do, and one should absolutely never do this and that... it just seems so restrictive, why can't people just write the way they want?  I don't get it.
JR: It is often called "A method to the madness" in the biz and there's nothing wrong and setting aside our "Writers' ego" away if the FILM is getting made, isn't it? That should be the goal!

(ps - also, would it be considered 'taboo' or a big screenplay 'no-no' to include a note at the beginning of the script saying it would be shot in black and white, or something along those lines?)
JR: Good luck!

Posted by: avlan, May 23rd, 2012, 5:09am; Reply: 16

If you don't mind the director using other camera angles or shots then you suggest in your script, and if a film professional says 'cut them'... then cut them. Don't risk getting your script passed on because of formatting issues. :)

Posted by: ajr, May 23rd, 2012, 9:04am; Reply: 17

Limit your flashbacks to just one? That's like saying "only use bolognese sauce when you cook spaghetti." Um, why? PULP FICTION is one gigantic, interconnecting flashback, with characters flashing back individually as well (i.e., Willis and the watch).

Posted by: jagan@spundana.org, May 23rd, 2012, 9:18am; Reply: 18

Even I write stories that move around between two time lines most of the time, when I am dealing with the Protagonist actually being active in two separate worlds or realms. Even in those screenplays, I have been often told by senior producers that I should either remain within the confines of linearity or write at the very top of the screenplay, like a quotation, "This story is set between 1964 to 1984 in London and 2002 and 2003 in Los Angeles" and then forget about even saying "Flashback begins.... Flashback ends....." every time you move around.

Their contention is, it "Hurts their heads" while trying to read through the story and script that they want to make into a film and the constant moving about between two or more time lines, causes them to think "This is going to be a very complex, expensive and difficult movie to make" within a certain budget they might have in mind.

So, yes, avoiding too many Flashbacks in a SPEC script is a good advise, indeed.

Posted by: greg, May 23rd, 2012, 9:31am; Reply: 19

Why would you want to use CUT TO? They just take up space and add absolutely nothing. When the scene ends it's automatic that it cuts to the next scene unless otherwise noted by a transition.

Posted by: Electric Dreamer, May 23rd, 2012, 9:44am; Reply: 20

The only time I would use CUT TO: is if I was asked by a producer.
A list of pet peeves from whom I'm writing for is always a good thing.
In general, standard operating procedure is: no extra stuff on the page.

I don't know anyone that requests CUT TO or CONT'D's.
Don't let urban myth like "industry rules" get in the way of your story.
If your story is engaging, the rest can be fixed.

Regards,
E.D.

Posted by: rock., May 23rd, 2012, 12:52pm; Reply: 21

To be honest, the problem was more with the Dissolve To's rather than Cut To's. I agree, I wouldn't use cut to's between scenes, but because I was intentionally trying to write it with a certain 'old movie' style in which dissolves were used a lot more, I ended up writing a lot more of Dissolves in than I should've.

Posted by: jagan@spundana.org, May 23rd, 2012, 1:03pm; Reply: 22

It is okay, if it is a requirement for the Story, to even use "Dissolves into" or "Dissolves to:" between meaningful scenes.

Suppose you want to convey this:

LILLY, 14, precocious and is lost in an "Alice in Wonderland" kind of a place, forest, then she finds a door, which has no hinges nor walls, she pushes it open slowly, knowing nothing about what lies beyond it......

DISSOLVES TO:

Lilly is 24 and opens, walking in through a double door of a palace. She is received at the red carpet as she walks in gracefully.

So, for such a moving of the two locations and the age difference shown in the lead character you want to remain with, is completely okay and justified.

But yes, overdoing it is a bit of a bother.

Posted by: Grandma Bear, May 23rd, 2012, 1:14pm; Reply: 23

I never use CUT TO:s, but in my last feature Arterial Motives which is a found footage script, I used it to show abrupt cuts between footage. Not edited in other words. :)

Posted by: jagan@spundana.org, May 23rd, 2012, 1:20pm; Reply: 24

Screenplays can be written in many ways, if you read the following scripts (Available on this very site somewhere) you'd see and agree:

The Debt
Close Encounters of the 3rd Kind
Patch Adams
Wall-E (A must read for all non-animation writers).
Back to the Future, I.II, III
Hideaway
Avatar
The Verdict (David Mamet's classic)
Adaptation (Charlie Kaufman at his best)
Ghost
The Sixth Sense (Shyamalan's best)
All the President's Men (William Goldman)

And so on....

Posted by: greg, May 23rd, 2012, 4:48pm; Reply: 25

Quoted from jagan@spundana.org

Screenplays can be written in many ways, if you read the following scripts (Available on this very site somewhere) you'd see and agree:

That is very true, however it's a little different when you're already in the industry as opposed to trying to break in.

Posted by: jagan@spundana.org, May 23rd, 2012, 4:54pm; Reply: 26

True that. The emphasis is still very much on the Story than how a screenplay is written. In fact, I have even been given assignments like "Identifying a film within an already existing person's life story". Whether there is truly a film within or not? And I must confess that it is a tough ask. It is definitely not an easy job to identify a film in any other story that you come across.

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