Freedom of Screenwriting (Save the dog!)

I am an amateur screen writer.  Very much amateur.  I think not even grade 4 on 1 to 10 scale point.  To improve my skills, I must keep on writing.  Not easy as it sounds. Something is restricting me.  I found out what it is.  Unaligned rules and laws of screen writing.
  Save the dog is a complete freestyle writing..that's what I call it.  I have noticed that I write more if I ignore the rules and just write like a maniac.  Once I stop and wonder if my scene really followed the rules, I lose concentration.  Really annoying.
  Who really says what is right and what is wrong?  Even the producer has no set of rules he will follow when he sees the magical script he wants.  If he likes it and thinks it's marketable, who cares if I used "We" in the script as camera angle.  He will buy it regardless of your writing style.
   People say...oh you can't do this..you can't do that...they can say whatever they want...at the end...your script will be completely rewritten after purchased...no matter how much you listened to those people and how much you perfected on it.
   So, why waste your time listen to someone criticizing your work and he has never wrote a produced script.  Maybe, he will become a good critic one day but not a writer.
   Don't get me wrong.  There are some brilliant ideas and help from people who knows what they are talking about, but you must ignore the rest.
   It's a good idea to just write and ignore everything...i mean everything....and rewrite later with better editing methods.   Your ideas are way too much valuable to waste and should not be blocked by some rules.
    Take minimal opinions from anyone, put maximum load and save the dog!  Good luck!

Hey coldbug. There's a couple of things you're missing here:

1. You can always write what you want. nobody's stopping you.

2. I always go for writing off the top of my head - initially, and then find some structure afterwards, but it's each to his own.

3. You might not be read by a producer, but a reader.

4. You're correct ... your script will be re-written. But if the re-writer's going to be paid, will it be you?

Quoted from coldbug

It's a good idea to just write and ignore everything...

it's not.

Hey coldbug,

I think you're looking at it from the wrong angle... this may sound as cliche as any writing tip, but don't look at them as RULES but more as guidelines... there is a reason why some things work and others don't... in the case of the "we" thing, it's redundant to say it (hey, I've done this too in the past) but I have to agree its a waste of space writing "we see..." just write what we see. Anyway I'm sure this "rule" is not what's really preventing you from writing a good story, but I think it important to note; who are you writing for? Other people or just for your self?... as for me, I want people to read my stories, and I don't want them to get all caught up with poor grammar, poor spelling, poor formatting... chances are the majority of regular people you give a script to won't even know the "rules" of script writing... but regardless, I personally don't want anyone to get thrown from the story... and you know what?, there are no hard-fast rules in screenwriting, only people who have been doing it with success and for long enough that they've passed on what seems to work best on the whole, and hey make additional cash selling books. I've never read "Save the Cat" so don't quite catch the "Save the Dog" reference but I take it you seem to be the underdog. It seems you are getting too caught up with what others on here will nag on you for that you can't concentrate on the story (i could very well be wrong of course)... but if that's the case then yeah man, forget all the rules just lay it out there. I think someone phrased this as a "vomit" draft... oh it'll be messy, but I still think before you have guest over for dinner, it's a good idea to clean up that mess, with the tools that are best for the job... I hope you continue to write and for Pete's sake enjoy doing it! And that's just my thought on your thought.

Best,
Kev

No one can make you write to the industry format.  Design your own rules and do what's most comfortable for you...  But don't complain when people don't read your scripts or when the only comments they leave are, "your formatting is off."

There's a reason why there are rules to formatting.  It makes it easier to read the script if you know where the dialogue, the action, the transition, etc.  are located.  And easier reading is faster reading.

There's always someone on the board who insists on writing things his/her own way.  They generally don't stay too long because they don't get the reads that they thought they'd get.

Good luck with it.

Phil

Heck with the dog, save the cat.

I'm not a "Save the Cat" fan by any means. I think you can write a good story without worrying about the rules. But if you're a new writer, chances are you'll run into a lot of problems, and using things like Save the Cat can help you identify and solve issues you would normally miss.

Having trouble making your protagonist likable? Maybe you should throw in a Save the Cat moment. Is your second act boring? Think about rising action and the midpoint. Don't worry about them when you're writing-- write however the hell you want. But if you can't fix a problem, the rules might actually help.

And I'm always annoyed by "don't listen to this guy's review! He isn't a pro screenwriter!". Why even post a script in the first place, then? You don't have to the Oliver Stone to know a script is shit.

Will

Pretty sure living in a bubble, free from any outside perspective whatsoever, is the worst way to go about doing anything, let alone screenwriting.

Also, doing something in excess doesn't have merit in and of itself; usually, it's the opposite.

Finally, save the dog is pretty much the exact same mantra as save the cat. If you really wanted to go the other way, it'd be kill the cat.

Personally, I think you should just tell the story in your own way and not worry about screenwriting books.  Read some other scripts instead.

Each of us has a structure within us and that's what gives us our unique voice.   Develop that and if that doesn't work for the number of people you want it to work for then tweak your style using what you learn from books.   You should, however, develop your own voice first.

If you plan on marketing your scripts in Hollywood then my advice would change slightly to encourage you to follow Save the Cat above all else.  Any other market, it doesn't matter as much but in Hollywood it's of utmost importance.

No matter what, I do think your script should look like a script, so please follow the industry standard for your script's format.

Quoted from coldbug

So, why waste your time listen to someone criticizing your work and he has never wrote a produced script.

Actually, a number of us have been produced.  But if you're not going to listen to anyone, then why come here in the first place?

When VA was posting his poorly-written nonsense on the boards.  He wouldn't listen to anyone's comments unless they were positive.  His argument was that we didn't know screenwriting because we weren't produced by Speilberg or Tarantino.

You can have the best story in the world, but if you follow your own formatting techniques, you won't find too many people reading it.  Formatting guidelines evolved over the last century.  A newbie writer is not going to change that.

And referring to it as save the dog is just silly.  It means nothing.  There was someone here last year who, like you, preferred to do everything his own way.  He compared his way of screenwriting to making a hamburger.  After a while, he realized no one was going to read his scripts and he left.

Phil

Personally, I don't think that a screenwriting board is the place to tell people that what they've been doing for their entire screenwriting lives shouldn't be the way things are done because it doesn't suite the writers who can't accept formatting "rules". It's never going to go down well.

I've seen a few writers who have chimed in with some of the traditional arguments against formatting...

- It's a free world!
- Tarantino does it!
- You're not a pro, so sod off!
- You've never had anything produced!

All of these arguments are invalid when it comes down to the important matter at hand. If it doesn't smell, taste or look like a screenplay, then it's not a screenplay. Formatting a screenplay correctly is important. End of story. But, you can possible get away with not being a particularly good writer. Don't get formatting and writing confused. In a lot of respects they're completely different.

I'll give you a quick anecdote. Recently I landed a small time gig (not paid) with a film producer in America. Thinking that he was looking for stories more than correct formatting, I read one of the synopsis' I received. The idea was brilliant, so I asked for a completed screenplay. When I got the screenplay I realised it was a complete shambles. Unsure of what to do I sent it through to the producer, anyway. His response? "What is this bullshit?" He didn't even open the script, because he could see that the formatting was way off.

You say that you should be allowed to write the way you choose. As others have pointed out, no one's stopping you, so why the rant on the boards? What have you achieved?

I've been here just over a year and I've seen many screenwriting "rebels" come through who refuse to write according to the industry standard. It's never gotten anyone anywhere. Not having correct formatting is almost like writing a novel with no punctuation, no paragraphs and no sense of structure. People won't read it.

I'm sorry, Coldbug... You have every right to write the way you wish. No one's stopping you. Just like I have every right to write a novel with a lack of punctuation and poor sentence structure. However, to sit here and tell members of a screenwriting board that the way they do things shouldn't be the norm doesn't and won't make sense to the majority of us. It's the accepted way of doing things because it's easy on the eye. I was caught by some irony in your original statement which made me giggle:

Quoted from coldbug

Who really says what is right and what is wrong?

None of us do. But isn't that what this thread was started for? To tell us we're all wrong??

Dan

I'm confused... is coldbug talking about basic formatting (page margins, grammar, which things to capitalize) or "rules" of screenwriting like three-act structure and the inciting incident and midpoints?

Quoted from crookedowl

It seems like he's talking about both...

I thought he was talking about both.

Hey cold,

Not sure I agree with most of what you have written, but you've stated not to listen to criticism so I'm not going into detail.

On the format and look of a screenplay you need to look at it like a job interview, you would'nt turn up to a job you want looking like a bag of shit, a screenplay is the same, the way it looks is your first impression and it shows you have done some research into the field.

Michael

Of all the stupid threads I've seen, this may be the stupidity climax. Cold, did your feet freeze when your heater let out or your brain too?

Write what you want, bro. You came here to stir up a discussion and are nowhere to be found. Haven't read anything by you, but if you want to tell a good story... There's lots to be learned by the books you ridicule.

Jamestown

To me, the only thing a screenwriter should be reading are screenplays and maybe professional critiques of those screenplays.  Start reading "the books" when you have run out of screenplays to read.  I can always tell when someone only reads "the books."  They are the one who have read 90 books on screenwriting and 3 actual scripts.

As far as formatting goes, I would have to agree with the majority here, but not sure if for the same reasons they are stating.   With so many other "rules" that I'd argue can/should be broken, I'm not sure why formatting would be one of them.  JMHO.  I mean formatting as in how the elements are spaced  on the page.

I agree with your statement of write how you want, that's what the vomit draft is for.  But if you chose not to follow the formatting guidelines when it comes to your first draft (or whatever draft you plan on having read by others) than it is kind of like going to the Governor's Ball dressed in boxers and a wife-beater.

Quoted from jwent6688

Of all the stupid threads I've seen, this may be the stupidity climax.

I've started plenty of stupid threads. It's usually a case of too much coffee.

Caffeine is a wicked taskmaster.

But yeah, this thread is a waste of space.

Save the cat... I contributed to mr snyders empire post- humous. I hated that this book taught producers/ agents to look at page 5 and 25 before reading the first ten. That is all I ever ask. If my first ten pages turn you off, read no further.

Aside from that, there is something called kill the cat that many writers forget. If the audience hates your antagonist with a passion, they will get satisfaction during their downfall. I often times rely more on this than trying to get my readers on board with my hero.

James

Maybe we should stop posting on this thread until we hear from Coldbug? And, if he doesn't, maybe the mods should lock the thread.

Phil

I am here now.  wow..so many replies for my outraged post.
First, I would like to clear up that I was not referring to this site at all.  I was talking about in general.
Second, I posted it because I was frustrated for not being able to write even a page in more than three weeks.
I didn't mean to put it in a way like screw you all..i will do whatever i want.  Sorry if I have got on your nerves.
I will get back on my feet (yes..I still have them lol) and write again.  Hope I get my mojo back, because I feel like a loser sometimes.

It's time to redeem myself here.  I am from Burma and came to USA at age 18.  English is my SL and here I am chosing to write screenplays as a hobby.  Very challenging it had been with grammar.  I have an A.A in Liberal Arts and one day will finish the bachelor.
I am a guy who went to Wal Mart and asked where I could find a hooker.  I meant the coat hanger because that's what the translation into English in my head at that moment.  So, screenwriting is something I should not have chosen to dream of.  I am a stubborn spoiled child now being released into the wild so sometimes I do get disappointed for not acheiving something I want.
ok..please forgive me for the rant and can I go back to basics 101

a few weeks ago, it was snowing and I had an idea.  To change the opening of my script.  Instead of..

FADE IN:

Strong fortified structure bathed in snow.

I was thinking what if I can let the camera follow the snow flake falling...so i did

FADE IN:

A single snow flake falls in the sky and we follow as it heads toward the ceiling of a strong fortified structure.

then I was thinking..wait I can't do that.  I am not supposed to write about camera directions..but then I was thinking...wait..isn't this what screenwriting is all about?
I want to write what I want to see on the screen.  That is why I like to write screenplays.  If I can't do that, where is the fun?

Can I write like that?  I only want to do it at the opening and won't do it alot.  Would it bother the readers?

Quoted from coldbug

Can I write like that? I only want to do it at the opening and won't do it alot. Would it bother the readers?

The answer is always the same.

It will bother some readers, and not others.

Trust your instincts about what works, 'cuz in the end, despite mountains of books and advice, your instincts are the only compass you've really got -- or need.

Good instincts are what separate the great from the not-so-great.

thanks Bert, and all.  I have posted and asked alot of questions in the past.  A lot of you helped me and gave me good comments.
I do like to keep getting ideas and opinions from you all.  Sorry I have gone on a rampage on here frustrated.

ok..the "We" thing.  I have been using it and obsessed with it and trying not to use it often.

"We (verb)" is ok if you don't overuse it. However, never use "We see" or "We hear" because those are always redundant.

I will add this as an aftertought.

If you read what you have written, then wonder, "Will a reader like this?", the answer is probably no.

It is by far the simplist -- and most difficult -- test of quality.

You should always be excited by what you have written -- and if you aren't, then who will be?

Quoted from bert

Trust your instincts about what works, 'cuz in the end, despite mountains of books and advice, your instincts are the only compass you've really got -- or need.

Good instincts are what separate the great from the not-so-great.

Not so sure that's the best advice.   Instincts can stink, especially for someone who is struggling with English let alone the craft of screenwriting.  Coldbug, you're best bet is to follow the advice of professionals who've already paved the way to successful screenwriting career.  For starters don't get fancy & flowery.

Strong fortified structure bathed in snow. (good)

A single snow flake falls in the sky and we follow as it heads toward the ceiling of a strong fortified structure.  (not so good)

LESS IS MORE.  Keep it simple and to the point.

Last but not least, In the words of Wayne Newton, "If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants".   (He's the dude that invented the Fig Newton bar.)   Hope this helps.

Quoted from coldbug

FADE IN:

A single snow flake falls in the sky and we follow as it heads toward the ceiling of a strong fortified structure.

then I was thinking..wait I can't do that. I am not supposed to write about camera directions.

Can I write like that? I only want to do it at the opening and won't do it alot. Would it bother the readers?

You can, without camera angles:

Quoted Text

FADE IN:

EXT.  CLOUDY SKY - NIGHT

A single snowflake falls.  It twists and turns, flips and flutters its way down.

In the distance below, a castle.

The snowflake glides down it's zig-zag path.  It swirls around a stone tower, barely missing several times... until it gently lands on the nose of a gargle.  An insult to the stone gardian.

You can hint at any camera angle by simply describing what you see in detail.

Phil

Or...

EXT. CLOUDY SKY - NIGHT

A snowflake falls and lands atop of a stone tower.

Quoted from M.Alexander

Coldbug, you're best bet is to follow the advice of professionals who've already paved the way to successful screenwriting career.  For starters don't get fancy & flowery.

Strong fortified structure bathed in snow. (good)

A single snow flake falls in the sky and we follow as it heads toward the ceiling of a strong fortified structure.  (not so good)

LESS IS MORE.  Keep it simple and to the point.

yea...it's more likely to make mistakes for doing fancy stuffs. I'll keep it simple and plain English.

Quoted from bert

If you read what you have written, then wonder, "Will a reader like this?"

I wonder this after every word I write :'( (I thought this was the emoticon for sweating)

Quoted from M.Alexander

Or...

EXT. CLOUDY SKY - NIGHT

A snowflake falls and lands atop of a stone tower.

Lacks poetry.

I think Coldbug wants to show the feather's journey.

The following is the opening sequence from Forrest Gump:

Quoted Text

EXT. A SAVANNAH STREET - DAY (1981)

               A feather floats through the air. The falling feather.

               A city, Savannah, is revealed in the background. The feather
               floats down toward the city below. The feather drops down
               toward the street below, as people walk past and cars drive
               by, and nearly lands on a man's shoulder.

               He walks across the street, causing the feather to be whisked
               back on its journey. The feather floats above a stopped car.
               The car drives off right as the feather floats down toward
               the street.

               The feather floats under a passing car, then is sent flying
               back up in the air. A MAN sits on a bus bench. The feather
               floats above the ground and finally lands on the man's
               mudsoaked shoe.

               The man reached down and picks up the feather. His name is
               FORREST GUMP. He looks at the feather oddly, moves aside a
               box of chocolates from an old suitcase, then opens the case.

Sounds a lot better than:

Quoted Text

EXT. A SAVANNAH STREET - DAY (1981)

A feather falls on FORREST GUMP's shoe.

Phil

Absolutely.

But you gotta take into consideration that coldbug is still struggling with English. Keeping it simple makes less room for error.

Reading his posts in this thread, I don't think he's struggling too much.

Phil

Quoted from coldbug

FADE IN:

A single snow flake falls in the sky and we follow as it heads toward the ceiling of a strong fortified structure.

Can I write like that? I only want to do it at the opening and won't do it alot. Would it bother the readers?

People here have chimed in with good suggestions, but the problem is that they are offering suggestions for you to change it to how THEY would write it.

This is all well and good, but it's probably harder to steer yourself into a different style altogether instead of policing your own writing.  At least right off the bat.

A single snow flake falls toward the ceiling of a strong fortified structure.

Those are your words, just condensed.  In my opinion, it goes without saying that a falling snowflake is going to be in the sky, especially if it's headed toward the roof of a building.  I say roof because that probably fits better in an exterior location.

By writing "a single snowflake", you've placed emphasis on this one small thing so that the reader can envision it without getting into the "we aspect" and specifically calling out that we're supposed to follow it.

Same effect, less words, more white on the page.

Quoted from dogglebe

Reading his posts in this thread, I don't think he's struggling too much.

Phil

Maybe so. But it's still gotta be frustrating.

Quoted from coldbug

I am from Burma and came to USA at age 18. English is my SL and here I am chosing to write screenplays as a hobby. Very challenging it had been with grammar. I have an A.A in Liberal Arts and one day will finish the bachelor.
I am a guy who went to Wal Mart and asked where I could find a hooker. I meant the coat hanger because that's what the translation into English in my head at that moment. So, screenwriting is something I should not have chosen to dream of.

There's your script idea right there, coldbug.    Write what you know.

Title:  "Burma Boy".

Genre:  Comedy.

Logline:  After his parents are killed in a tsunami, a teenage Burmese boy moves to L.A. in search of the American dream.   What he discovers is a living nightmare.

INT. WALMART - DAY

HUNG, approaches a  female SALES CLERK.

                         CLERK
                Can I help you?

                         HUNG
                Yes, I would like to buy a hooker.

EXT.  WALMART - DAY

A COP leads out the doorin handcuffs.

                          HUNG
                  What do I do wrong, Mr. Constable!?

                           COP
                  You're under arrest for solicitation.

                           HUNG
                  I did not touch private parts!
                           (smiles)
                  By the way, I'm Hung!

                            COP
                  Shut up, pervert.

Cop opens the door of a police a car and slams Hung's head on the door jam
before he shoves him inside.

                            HUNG
                  Ow!

                            COP
                  Oops.  Watch your head.

(Here's the big twist at the end: Turns out Hung's parents weren't killed in the tsunami.  They just pretended to be dead to get rid of him)

Ha...ha.

Quoted from M.Alexander

Maybe so.  But it's still gotta be frustrating.

There's your script idea right there, coldbug.    Write what you know.

Title:  "Burma Boy".

Genre:  Comedy.

Logline:  After his parents are killed in a tsunami, a teenage Burmese boy moves to L.A. in search of the American dream.   What he discovers is a living nightmare.

INT. WALMART - DAY

HUNG, approaches a  female SALES CLERK.

                         CLERK
                Can I help you?

                         HUNG
                Yes, I would like to buy a hooker.

EXT.  WALMART - DAY

A COP leads Hung the door in handcuffs.

                          HUNG
                  What do I do wrong, Mr. Constable!?

                           COP
                  You're under arrest for solicitation.

                           HUNG
                  I did not touch private parts!

(Here's the big twist at the end: Turns out Mamar's parents weren't killed in the tsunami.  They just pretended to be dead to get rid of him)

Ha...ha.

I actually like it. That "hooker' thing is pure gold

Quoted from bjamin

I actually like it. That "hooker' thing is pure gold

Serious gold.

"Burma Boy" could be a cross between the two movies Joe Dirt and Bubble Boy.

Heck, if coldbug doesn't write it, I will. It's a no-brainer.

Quoted from M.Alexander

Haha, I have to say that I dig that idea! Funny kick in the teeth, too!

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