Okay, this one's for Dan C. who made mention in another thread:

Libby, sometimes, the good guy dies (you know what I mean) He should have added a wink but no matter, it was implied. ;D

It did make me think however...

So, here a few of my favs where the good guy dies.

Leon
Heat
Braveheart

The 'why' is the key though. Why do we accept/even revel sometimes, in the hero's demise.

What are the elements that make a story/movie a success and a joy to watch when ultimately our hero dies? Obviously sacrifice is one thing, but what else?

the good guy does not die in Heat.


Hero dies... i dont know if youd call these great ones... but these are examples.

Quarantine
Alien 3
300
blair witch
the departed
Glory


as far as the why it makes them successful? sometimes it doesnt... it depends... sometimes its about a blaze of glory... sometimes its no-win/no-way-out... sometimes it's just badass if the bad guy wins.


it just depends on what the story calls for.
in this era of Superhero movies...people generally only want happy endings... they want everything tied up with a nice pretty bow on top... they want the hero riding off into the sunset....


pfftt

Quoted from Penoyer79 the good guy does not die in Heat.

That's your opinion.  ;D

It's all a bit fuzzy with the good and the bad characters in The Departed too. Love that film.

Psycho?

Marion Crane. The whole movie up until the shower scene was set with her as the protagonist. Then BAM! Stabbed.

That's the thing, Libby. You can't say Hero and Protagonist together, as if they're the same thing.

Both Dawn of the Deads ('78 depends on the ending).
The Thing ('82).
The Matrix Revolutions.
Children of Men.
Saving Private Ryan.
The Devil's Rejects (same result if you were rooting for William Forsythe or the Fireflys).
The Prestige (Hugh Jackman was the protagonist, but he certainly wasn't the hero. Great movie).
Cloverfield (assumed).
Cool Hand Luke.
The Shining (see: The Prestige).
American Beauty.
Donnie Darko.
Reservoir Dogs (unless you consider Mr. Pink the protagonist).

Good point, Sean, perhaps I should have just said 'main character' and you're right, they're not one and the same.

The main point I was trying to get at and I should have voiced it with much more clarity than I did is when do these movie deaths work and when do they not - in the examples you might give.

In Braveheart for example William Wallace sacrifices his life - to free Scotland from English rule. Pretty straight forward plot and we buy his devotion to the cause.

Some deaths in movies however don't make sense at all. I don't think a character should be killed off for the sake of a stunning horror visual or for shock value alone (which is what I was going to elaborate on to Dan) and I don't think a death should be thrown in just to avoid another boring Hollywood happy ending etc.

So, I suppose examples of where it worked and where it didn't work is more to the point of what I was interested in.

Simply put, did the end justify the means.

I think, for the most part, they kill them off for about five reasons. To show (from their point of view) that good doesn't conquer evil, that a savior (to become a savior) has to die, to show that the bad guys aren't actually the bad guys (typical of crime movies), because the obstacles are too strong or because of, as you said, shock value.

Libby, I agree your 2nd question is a far better topic to discuss. There's too many films out there that will kill off a protagonist when the theme doesn't warrant it.

Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon and Birdman have similar endings, where both protagonists' most likely outcomes were suicide, but favored thematic revelation after the act was implied. Those moments are way more memorable to me than just killing someone off.

Here are some of the top of my head:

The Killer and Hard Boiled
Gladiator
The Wicker Man
American Beauty
Falling Down
Twelve Monkeys
V For Vendetta
Cool Hand Luke
Easy Rider
Jacob's Ladder (I guess)
Million Dollar Baby
Terminator 2
Get Carter
Fallen
Arlington Road

The Sound of Music.

Shawn.....><

All good examples.

Tarantino does this well. Or at least he did in his early days. Before he carried with himself. I never do that. I think reading my recent posts will prove I always stick to the point, never the plank, and I always know where my trousers are. Even when I'm no longer wearing them.

Resevoir Dogs killed both protagonists. Quite rightly in its case.

Pulp Fiction killed Vic. And then had its cake and ate it by dipping back in time and have him walk out of the restaurant. A conceit few films manage to pull off. He did well there.

My favourite is the Matrix. Surely one of the best deaths and resurrections yet commited to film. Neo dies and yet gets up and manages to ruin his antagonist. With style too. I remember watching this sequence for the first time. It's still one of the best film endings I've ever seen. Enough said.

R

Johnny I agree with you agreeing.  :D Seems I confused myself in the process of mulling things over.

Good point about Birdman, I'm glad they chose the route they did... even if I did find it exhausting to watch.

I remember watching Alien for the first time and being blown away by the all the characters dropping off the peg one by one - the harsh realism was a little hard to take but a cinematic revelation of sorts too - I was used to happy endings. Thank God they elected to save Ripley and the cat.

I think there's still something to be said for leaving an audience satisfied and some cinematic deaths of late do have a 'jump the shark' aspect to them imh. (Drive - Ryan Gosling) - huh? When it comes down to it, movies are not real life.  

Open Water pissed me off enormously too - I was invested in those characters all the way through, them clinging on to one another for hours, days, sea-sickness etc. etc. Still, who cares about satisfying your audience when the film cost $130,000 to make and went on to gross $55 million worldwide, right? I must have been the only one who hated that ending. :) But speaking of sharks which film did you enjoy most, Open Water, or Jaws? Robert Shaw might have become lunch but Roy Sheider's character survived - yippee, and he's forced to confront his fear of the water.

Demento, yep, some great examples. So, did you buy all of those unfortunate demises? When I watched Million Dollar Baby, I wanted to throw something at the screen. I can however buy that storyline more so than some others.

The ending of American Beauty always works for me.

Quoted from Ledbetter The Sound of Music.

Oh, I gotta laugh!

I thought they escaped...

Quoted from oJOHNNYoNUTSo Birdman... where both protagonists' most likely outcomes were suicide, but favored thematic revelation after the act was implied.

He didn't die... Didn't you notice that whole thing where she looked down and was confused? That is actually one of the issues with it is that it basically proved that the superpowers weren't just in his head. He absolutely should have died, but it should have happened in the theatre and neglected the final sequence.

Quoted from Mr. Blonde He didn't die... Didn't you notice that whole thing where she looked down and was confused? That is actually one of the issues with it is that it basically proved that the superpowers weren't just in his head. He absolutely should have died, but it should have happened in the theatre and neglected the final sequence.

Sure, I guess the way I worded that was unclear. The outcome could've been death but instead it wasn't... at least in visual context.

Quoted from oJOHNNYoNUTSo Sure, I guess the way I worded that was unclear. The outcome could've been death but instead it wasn't... at least in visual context.

That's the same with Captain Von Trapp...

Dead Man's Shoes
In Bruges (maybe)
Blue Ruin

Off the top of my head

To Live and Die in L.A.
Gran Torino
The Professional

Hey I didn't know this post was made for me.  Thanks Libby :)

Okay, here's the deal guys.  I'm writing a screenplay where the hero doesn't quite achieve what he was looking for at the end.  

Libby wanted him to survive, but, I ixnayed that idea.  He must not live.

There are quite a few movies where the protag or hero doesn't survive till the end.  

I would have added the Omen as well.

That said, here is what Libby didn't tell you guys.

But, I will also add, she ads a great point, does it justify the means?  IMO, the answer is yes.  

I'm writing a horror story.  There are quite a few horror stories that don't have good outcomes.  Sometimes, it's justified, other times it isn't.  Japanese horror often has 0 survivors.

My story reads like it is gonna be okay for our hero and main protag.  Until it doesn't.  I think that's good shock value.  Especially in a horror story.

Oh, Libby, I hated the ending of Open Water.  I just sat there drained.  I thought they were gonna save the woman.  I really did.  But, I did find that very realistic.  The odds of anyone finding them were next to 0.  

I thought the Perfect Storm was in the same ilk.  No one lives.  That movie annoyed me more b/c the entire movie takes place on a ship and all of that is merely supposition.  

As opposed to Open water that is much more about what would happen if 2 people got stranded in the ocean for a long period of time.  I believe that would happen in Open Water.

The issue with Perfect Storm is how would any of the info of the choices the captain or the crew make ever get back for it to be written down?  It isn't as bad as that whole season of Dallas (hey, it's a dream, don't worry fans, you only wasted a year of your lives, but, we're cool, right?), but, IMO, wasting my 2 hours on supposition is far worse then the protag not living.

I think that's a great topic, when is it worth it, and when isn't it worth it?

I hated the Perfect Storm far more then Open Water.  But, the ending of Open Water left me so drained that I didn't want to do anything for a few hours.  IMO, that's great writing.  I was emotionally vested in those 2 characters.  And the camera work didn't get me seasick.  

I thought it was a brilliant film b/c it SHOULD have been boring as hell, yet, it wasn't.  I was at the edge of my seat.

Also, given the fact that it was loosely based on a true story had me hoping they lived.

I enjoyed reading about this debate.  So, Libby, have you come to the dark side?  It's fun over here.  We hurt our main characters and protags.  I actually have 2 stories where they don't live...

Dan

The two great movies which came to my mind are both listed already: Terminator 2 and Twelve Monkeys, another one would be 'The Sixth Sense'.

Twelve Monkeys is a perfect example where this works out very well in my opinion, whereas in Terminator 2 I thought it was a bit forced in order to make the story end. Glad it didn't work :-)

Oh, don't misunderstand me, Dan. I'm not averse to the 'dark side' at all. I just finished watching The Departed yet again, and almost everybody ends up dead in the end, but it's a masterpiece of a movie, and a brilliant script. And, of course Game Of Thrones is a perfect example of never getting attached to any one character...

What I don't like personally, is if the character's death is done illogically, gratuitously, nonsensically, and/or for shock value alone, or just to follow the latest horror trope. Imh, it needs to work on a level that the movie wouldn't be anywhere near as effective or memorable without that character's death.

Braveheart
Titanic
The Sixth Sense
Gladiator

And numerous other examples wouldn't be half the movies they are or half as memorable without those main character's deaths.

When the death is a victory of sorts I think that's when it's most effective or even where it can change the course of events of a story/plot. Here's an example:

"LA Confidential." Curtis Hanson's retro-noir film about corruption in 1950s Hollywood has three heroes, each with a dark side. One of those heroes, Detective "Trashcan" Jack Vincennes, played by Kevin Spacey, is killed at the hands of the villainous crooked cop Dudley Smith, played by James Cromwell. His dying words, though, send Smith on the wrong track and alert the other heroes as to who the real bad guy is.

What I observed with your plot is that you set up the story along the lines of hero (the chosen one by God) who will save the day i.e., heroic sacrifice, and yet it appears it's all done in vain because this character's death ultimately just becomes one in a  sequence of deaths which ultimately ends not only with his demise but with his failure to change the course of evil triumphing. A well worn theme of good v evil but then, he dies, the end.

Now, I could be wrong. This could be the perfect fatalistic ending for your story. The only true way in knowing if it is the best most satisfying outcome, in my opinion, is if in fact your character's death elevates your script, and the only way to know this is to post it up, (or post it out) to get a general consensus.

With anything we write there are going to be disparate viewpoints, you only need post a short on these boards to know that. In the end you are the writer and this is your story but the ending left me feeling the story was incomplete, and the denouement, though potentially visually stunning, a bit of a let down.  

Carlito's way
Awakenings (he's almost dead in that one)
Never Let Me Go (she's going to die soon in this one)

Gladiator

This sounds like something that's right up my ally. I am constantly chipped by people who read my writing because I get them to love a character and then they die.

I am Legend.
Ladder 49.
The Matrix Revolutions.
The Green Mile.
Elysium.
Moulin Rouge.
V for Vendetta.
Man on Fire.
American Sniper.
It was more of a TV mini-series rather than a movie, but Joan of Arc.
Superman was also killed in "Doomsday".

Sometimes movies need to have a "Real" element to them, the tearjerkers that people adore. Pull them in make them love a character only to have them fail, like life.

Well, this isn't modern.  (Though that wasn't the criteria anyway.)  But:

Cyrano de Bergerac. And THAT is a great film.

Shane.