Hi there,
     One of the biggest issues that I face in screenwriting is something that I think a lot of people new to the ways of screenwriting face.

How much is too much for description.  I'm asking more then I'm telling.  

I've learned that the only time you really talk about the surroundings are when something is different.

So, if I say:

INT.  BOB'S HOUSE - KITCHEN - NIGHT
Bob walks into his kitchen which is a standard 3 piece of a stove, fridge, table with 3 chairs.

That's considered too much info, right?  But, if I was to say:

INT. BOB'S HOUSE - KITCHEN - NIGHT
Bob walks into his kitchen and looks at his broken fridge then stares at his huge table with ten chairs.

That's okay b/c it's unusual, is that correct?

Incidentally, how would you describe people dressed in armor, say during the medieval times?
Would Fighters dressed in standard Chain Mail armor be okay?  Or is that too much?  Or do you need to clarify b/c they could be dressed in Chain, Half-Plate, Plate, or Full-Plate armor?

And say a mage wears all magical items on their person.  Would you give a run down like:
And X stands attention, ready for battle in his bracers, cloak, shin pads, and focus crown, all of which are magical.  

Is what I wrote above too much?  What do you guys do when you want to describe something along those lines?

What is your general rule for how deep you take it?

Same with buildings.  Is it okay to say a street with many run down buildings, but, one in particular seems worse then the others?  

Or the nicest house on a run down street, but, not good enough to be confused with a nice house.

I guess I'm looking for specific how do you deal with description issues.  

Lastly, any fantasy or sci-fi geeks out there?  How would you deal with how a wormhole or parallel dimension door looks like?  Or Hpyerspace?  Or Warp space?  

Thanks

Mods, if this is in the wrong spot, feel free to move it.

Thanks again in advance,
You guys are awesome.
Dan

Just show what you see, it's as simple as that. Whatever that image in your mind shows, relay it to us in as few words as possible without leaving anything out. Obviously though, there are some descriptions that go without saying.

A wood for example will have lots of trees.. if it didn't it wouldn't be a wood.

Quoted Text And X stands attention, ready for battle in his bracers, cloak, shin pads, and focus crown, all of which are magical.

X, in magical bracers, cloak, shin pads and focus crown, stands ready for battle.

How's it going, Dan?

My 2c worth - don't detail things in scenes that are unnecessary. For example we don't need to know there's a Simpson Washing Machine Model XYZ unless it's crucial for the scene - if that machine comes to life, then maybe.

I remember watching Internal Affairs - and there was a scene with a mansion - all white walls, plush white carpet, white leather couches etc. Soon as I saw it I said to myself oh-o, and sure enough a blood bath of a scene occurred shortly afterwards. Red looks great on white. It was a crime thriller so I don't get any prizes for picking it but the whole scene was set up like that with a visual purpose in mind.

Also, take a bathroom for example - it's just a bathroom, however it's generally important that what you describe matches the character and the story. For example a down on his luck character is unlikely to live in a McMansion unless the story is about him losing his fortune.

Ever see horror movies where the guys and gals on a road-trip stop off at a greasy spoon and visit the rest rooms and there's flies buzzing about, rusty water coming from the taps, unnamed horrors in the bottom of the s-bend and graffiti on the walls - that's all there for a reason - to set the scene, forewarn of the horror to come etc.  From here I also know things are only going to get worse for the characters too.

INT.  BOB'S HOUSE - KITCHEN - NIGHT
Bob walks into his kitchen which is a standard 3 piece of a stove, fridge, table with 3 chairs.

Yes, this is too much, you're right. It's a standard setup of a kitchen and we pretty much know what they look like. At the top of the scene however if your character is a rich banker, stockbroker, or drug kingpin you might detail how luxurious the place is - perhaps say it has a commanding view of the NYC skyline - or the person's wardrobe is the size of a small apartment, get what I mean.

You also don't want to detail things and make things hard for the director. Don't describe walls as being pink, for example, unless there's a darned good reason for it unless the character has a preoccupation/obsession with pink and that's part of the story, then we don't need that. Likewise you won't say of a character - he's 6ft 8inches, blue eyes, wearing a gingham shirt but you might say he's built like a brick shithouse.

The important thing to remember is the 'details' must match the overall scene and character and fit in with the story you're telling.

Re your last question: I don't know much about armour but I'd say at the top of the scene it might be useful in depicting a particular historical period, or a world of your own creation. Once you've done that though you wouldn't need to repeat it. If the opposing army wore different threads however and were at a distinct disadvantage because of it then yes, that would go in.

Btw, this description that you wrote (below) is pretty darn good, witty too.

the nicest house on a run down street, but, not good enough to be confused with a nice house.

Hope this helps clarify.

Yo, Dan.  You raise an age old great question here.

How much is too much or too little...because overwriting and underwriting (no, not the kind of Insurance Underwriting that I do every day) are both problems.

Libby gives good advice here, but the reality is there are no absolute rights and wrongs.

I always advise peeps to set their scene right off the bat, each and every time.  That means you have to use visual writing to create an image in your readers' minds.  How detailed or undetailed is up to each person and what works and what doesn't work is up to each reader.

If something is going to come into play, it needs to be addressed.  If something isn't remotely important to the story, it doesn't, but that doesn't mean it's a mistake to include some kind of description of the interior or exterior of a building/house/whatever, because you do want your readers to be able to picture this place, and like Libby said, there are obvious ways this is done when you watch a finished movie, so just understand that it was most likely written this way as well...and for a specific reason.

It's a learning process that few ever really get right, but the more your read and write, the better the odds of coming up with what will work for you and your writing.  

You already got some good comments. I would add don't repeat information that is already in your scene heading. e.g.,

Quoted Text INT. BOB'S HOUSE - KITCHEN - NIGHT Bob walks into his kitchen and looks at his broken fridge then stares at his huge table with ten chairs.

All you really need is:

INT. BOB'S HOUSE - KITCHEN - NIGHT
Bob enters - looks at his broken fridge then stares at his huge table with ten chairs.

And unless somehow the fridge and chairs are important story elements, you could simply say "Bob enters - scans the room."

Dan, the question of how much description to use in a scene is one I come back to time and again.  It depends to a certain degree on the genre -- Sci-Fi and Fantasy require a little more in terms of ‘world building’ as you’re introducing the reader to the unfamiliar.  It can be tempting to go overboard; when really, what seems like an important detail to you makes little difference to the person reading.

The important thing is to keep the story moving forward.  Avoid weighting the reader down with blocks of detail.

For your question on the armour etc. think about blending description into the action/story.  Draw attention to a detail or two that stand out or tell us something about character i.e:

SIR BROOKES, 30s, rides tall in the saddle, the sun blazing off his polished armour.

SIR BROOKES, 30s, slouches in the saddle, his chain-mail rusted and ill-fitting.

Or something along those lines to give you an idea.  Be careful that description doesn’t start to read like a shopping list.  It’s easy to get carried away and could get repetitive wading through each characters style of dress/weaponry.


As to your other example:

INT. BOB'S HOUSE - KITCHEN - NIGHT

Bob walks into his kitchen and looks at his broken fridge then stares at his huge table with ten chairs.

-- Could be:

INT. BOB’S HOUSE - KITCHEN - NIGHT

Bob enters and takes a seat at the big table. He looks at the row of empty chairs, a sadness in his eyes.

Blending the description draws the reader’s attention to Bob’s character/mood -- it’s more functional and moves the story on.

Hope this helps.  As others have already mentioned, read scripts -- find one in a genre close to your own and see what worked for them.

Steve.

Hey Dan,

I totally agree with LC here. Don't mention stove, fridge or table with 3 chairs at all if they aren't necessary for the story. You could as well just say 'Bob enters the kitchen' then.

Almost finished your script, will get you my feedback at the weekend.

Only use description if it adds to the story is my rule. The broken fridge for example could be a way of SHOWING bob is living in poverty, down on his luck, lazy, or a terrible repair man. (that'd be funny. A repair man who lives in a house of broken items)

Or if something in the setting will be important later then make sure to add it in your description. If a child is going to fall down a set of stairs you better make sure the reader knows there is a set of stairs nearby.

When I write, if my scenes take place in a location that's nothing out of the ordinary I just skip scene descriptions altogether. I try to describe them in the slugline. For example instead of just a BAR I'll write DINGY BAR or a LUXURY HOUSE to give the reader an idea without over doing it.

Well, let’s see…

A tree falls in the forest. If no one is around to hear it, does it still make a sound?

OR—

A TREE, tall from years of growth. It’s bark is a testament to an ageless defiance to time. Branches hang like the forest guardian, covering that is seeks to protect while it’s leaves fan out to create life giving shade to the nubile seedlings fighting to gain ground and become as majestic as it.

It Falls as though dead. Dead from God’s blow above in the form of angry lightning. It crashes…crashes to the ground as the forest inhabitants look on in terror. But wait, there are no inhabitants.

Not this day and the tree passes into the hands of eternity without so much as a witness, the question is whispered into the mist…

Was it’s passing even heard?

;D


Shawn…..><

So first time jitters keep popping up along with a million and one questions that I cannot find answers for.

So when is Detail, too much detail?

The art of screen/script writing is completely different to novel/creative writing. Some tell me Detail is important, others tell me that too much detail is wrong. So what's the deal? I'm used to writing with detail, finely tuned scenes in my writing that give the reader the ability to envision it in their mind as they read. But this isn't acceptable in scripts.

Mr. Dragon: the thread Pia listed is valuable is well is just Googling the subject. I would add this.

- Always ask yourself three questions. (1) Is the detail necessary for some plot element in the story? (2) Is the detail already in the scene heading (3) Can the reader actually see the detail - if not, nuke it. An example of applying these guidelines:

INT. KITCHEN - DAY

Dragon sits at a oval, cherry wood, kitchen table given to him by his children on his birthday.

If the fact that the table is oval, made of cherry wood is not relevant to some plot point then neither are the details. you can just write:

Dragon sits at a table.

Now - if Dragon were going to stare at his reflection on the table - then a detail like it was glossy or polished would be relevant.

You won't need to add the detail that it is in the kitchen because the location is already in the scene heading and you can't write that it was given to him by his children because their is no way to see or hear that if it is in your description. You'll have to handle that through dialogue.

There are always exceptions - I have read instances where all of the above guidelines were violated and it was just fine for some reason. But if you are just starting out at this - practice adherence to brevity and then expand from there when you think it is stylistically important.

Lastly - you can always post some brief samples of your stuff here and I am sure you will get folks to weigh in with specific recommendations.

Write what it is important we see. A bar for example, goes without much description, everyone knows what a bar looks like, or can imagine one, so tell us what's different about the bar instead (but only if it is important to the story).

If it doesn't advance the story you don't need it. Remember that if your script is ever picked up there are good chances the director will change just about everything you write. The clothes, hairstyles, furniture you write in that don't matter. Screenwriting is about economy. Getting the most out of every word you write. Writing with the fewest words possible to convey your story clearly.

Don't forget that atmosphere is important to a story too, so don't strip out too much. Finding the correct balance here is the bane of many a screenwriter.

Nobody can tell you "for sure" because every reader's tolerance is different.

Read scripts, both good and bad.  It's the only way to learn, and your own voice in the "scripted" form must evolve over time.

After a while, you'll know "too much" when you see it.  In your own work and in that of others.

Too much for me would be like...

Quoted Text INT. KITCHEN - DAY A coffee pot on the stove, a cat near the door, and some newspapers on the table.  A spoon teeters on the edge of a tabletop.

Pointless bullshit which we don't need to know.

Another example:

Quoted Text INT. KITCHEN - DAY Mike scratches his nose.  He walks to the door, reaches out for the handle, turns the handle, opens the door

You know what I mean, people trying to choreograph every single movement of a particular character.

You could've just put Mike scratches his nose.  He opens the door.

If you're trying to create suspense tho, write it like that:

Mike reaches for the door.  His hand trembles as it wraps around the handle.

You write it depending on what image you want to create.  If there's no impending doom involved and you don't need to build up the suspense of a particular action, why over-do it? Just put Mike opens the door.

I like that the spoon teeters on the tabletop. I think that makes for an excellent visual. That's what we're building here. The teetering spoon could be the perfect talisman of what's to come.

Quoted from DustinBowcot I like that the spoon teeters on the tabletop. I think that makes for an excellent visual. That's what we're building here. The teetering spoon could be the perfect talisman of what's to come.

I just made that up on the spot, lol.

Yeah, it's okay, but what I'm saying is, don't put unnecessary detail in unless you're trying to create an atmosphere sort of thing.

We don't need to know the exact size of the room, how far apart the dishwasher and the cooker are ect.

LOL.

I think people really had some great answers here.

I'm learning this too.  I think all screenwriters do.  

I think if you can film it, and it should be there, then it should be there.  I will cite a few ex.

Someone said something about a table made from Cherry wood.
Do we NEED to know what the table is made from?  Does it play any role?  You don't need to describe everything either.

You don't need to say "Bob walks into the bathroom, takes off his Pj's, takes a pee, starts the shower, then hops in."

You could skip all of that unless say, it's a murder scene and then, you'd rewrite that to be tension filled.

So, ask yourself these questions:
1.  Is it important to the story in any way?  even if the table gets smashed, do we need to know it's made from cherry wood?

2.  Can it be filmed?  These are called asides.  Some hate them.  A few can enhance a scene.  Saying "Bob wonders if he's the next to die" can't be filmed.  How do you show that?  You could say "Bob stands in the mirror, stares deep and long, wondering if he's next."  That lets the director and writer know the motivation.

As Bert said, it's variable.  But, those 2 rules are vital.

Remember, prose can be 500 pages.  NO ONE can write a 500 page script.  So, each word counts b/c it takes away from another word later on.  You only have 120 pages (average).  that isn't a lot sometimes.

Dan

Quoted from DanC Someone said something about a table made from Cherry wood. Do we NEED to know what the table is made from?  Does it play any role?

I think cherry wood is fine. It tells me something about the owner of the desk.

I was just comparing two drafts of 1989 BATMAN.  This is the intro of the first and fifth drafts.  They mainly say the same thing, but it's interesting to see just how much they cut between drafts.

1st draft:

EXT. CITYSCAPE - NIGHT

     The place is Gotham City. The time, 1987 -- once removed.

     The city of Tomorrow: stark angles, creeping shadows,
     dense, crowded, airless, a random tangle of steel and
     concrete, self-generating, almost subterranean in its
     aspect... as if hell had erupted through the sidewalks and
     kept on growing. A dangling fat moon shines overhead, ready
     to burst.

     EXT. CATHEDRAL - NIGHT

     Amid the chrome and glass sits a dark and ornate Gothic
     anomaly: old City Cathedral, once grand, now abandoned --
     long since boarded up and scheduled for demolition.

     On the rooftop far above us, STONE GARGOYLES gaze down from
     their shadowy, windswept perches, keeping monstrous watch
     over the distant streets below, sightless guardians of the
     Gotham night.

     One of them is moving.

     EXT. GOTHAM SQUARE - NIGHT

     The pulsing heart of downtown Gotham, a neon nightmare of
     big-city corruption, almost surreal in its oppressiveness.
     Hookers wave to drug dealers. Street hustlers slap high-
     fives with three-card monte dealers. They all seem to know
     each other... with one conspicuous exception:

     A TOURIST FAMILY, Mom, Dad, and little Jimmy, staring
     straight  ahead as they march in perfect lockstep down the
     main drag. They've just come out of a bit show two blocks
     over; the respectable theatre crowd has thinned out, and
     now -- Playbills in hand -- they find themselves adrift in
     the predatory traffic of Gotham's meanest street.


Now, the 5th draft:

EXT. CITYSCAPE - NIGHT

        Gotham City.  The City of Tomorrow:  stark angles,
        creeping shadows, dense, crowded, as if hell had erupted
        through the sidewalks.  A dangling fat moon shines
        overhead.

        EXT. GOTHAM SQUARE - NIGHT

        PUSHERS wave to HOOKERS.  STREET HUSTLERS slap high-fives
        with three-card monte dealers.  They all seem to know
        each other... with one conspicuous exception:

        A TOURIST FAMILY, MOM, DAD, AND LITTLE JIMMY, march
        warily down the main drag.  Just out of a show.  But the
        respectable theatre crowd has thinned out, and now --
        Playbills in hand -- they're on Gotham's meanest street.

Quoted from eldave1 Mr. Dragon: the thread Pia listed is valuable is well is just Googling the subject. I would add this. - Always ask yourself three questions. (1) Is the detail necessary for some plot element in the story? (2) Is the detail already in the scene heading (3) Can the reader actually see the detail - if not, nuke it. An example of applying these guidelines: INT. KITCHEN - DAY Dragon sits at a oval, cherry wood, kitchen table given to him by his children on his birthday. If the fact that the table is oval, made of cherry wood is not relevant to some plot point then neither are the details. you can just write: Dragon sits at a table. Now - if Dragon were going to stare at his reflection on the table - then a detail like it was glossy or polished would be relevant. You won't need to add the detail that it is in the kitchen because the location is already in the scene heading and you can't write that it was given to him by his children because their is no way to see or hear that if it is in your description. You'll have to handle that through dialogue. There are always exceptions - I have read instances where all of the above guidelines were violated and it was just fine for some reason. But if you are just starting out at this - practice adherence to brevity and then expand from there when you think it is stylistically important. Lastly - you can always post some brief samples of your stuff here and I am sure you will get folks to weigh in with specific recommendations.

Exactly. Unless you need the detail later on or need it for tone, don't write it. Transformers has a lot of detail that is used later on and some for fun, like the BEEOTCH air freshener in Bumble Bee, and the "to punish and enslave" writing on the police mustang.

I read a script critique once about a writer who wrote in great lenght about a bar her character went into. Outside to inside. 4-wheel drive trucks with gunracks outside, men in plaid shirts, cowboy boots, and rodeo buckles inside. Lots of writing, several paragraphs worth, a couple pages. How was it solved? It was all reduced to a slug.

EXT. REDNECK BAR - DAY

That says it all. After that image was set the writing moved the story along. If you stop to describe everything, you stop the story (and your reader). Redneck bar may not invoke the same image but it should invoke an image (unless your reader doesn't know what a redneck is but write for the learned not the unlearned.) The art director takes it from there. If you can use a word that invokes tone, use it. Stereotype it. Flamboyant gay. Black ops. Crack whore. Socal beach. Techno dance club. Rain forest. DNA lab. Lab fit for Frankestien. Star Wars.

People who read your stuff watch movies so you have a large resevoir to draw word images from.

Words mean everything and less is more.

Quoted from DanC Hi there,      One of the biggest issues that I face in screenwriting is something that I think a lot of people new to the ways of screenwriting face. How much is too much for description.  I'm asking more then I'm telling.   I've learned that the only time you really talk about the surroundings are when something is different. So, if I say: INT.  BOB'S HOUSE - KITCHEN - NIGHT Bob walks into his kitchen which is a standard 3 piece of a stove, fridge, table with 3 chairs. That's considered too much info, right?  But, if I was to say: INT. BOB'S HOUSE - KITCHEN - NIGHT Bob walks into his kitchen and looks at his broken fridge then stares at his huge table with ten chairs. That's okay b/c it's unusual, is that correct? Incidentally, how would you describe people dressed in armor, say during the medieval times? Would Fighters dressed in standard Chain Mail armor be okay?  Or is that too much?  Or do you need to clarify b/c they could be dressed in Chain, Half-Plate, Plate, or Full-Plate armor? And say a mage wears all magical items on their person.  Would you give a run down like: And X stands attention, ready for battle in his bracers, cloak, shin pads, and focus crown, all of which are magical.   Is what I wrote above too much?  What do you guys do when you want to describe something along those lines? What is your general rule for how deep you take it? Same with buildings.  Is it okay to say a street with many run down buildings, but, one in particular seems worse then the others?   Or the nicest house on a run down street, but, not good enough to be confused with a nice house. I guess I'm looking for specific how do you deal with description issues.   Lastly, any fantasy or sci-fi geeks out there?  How would you deal with how a wormhole or parallel dimension door looks like?  Or Hpyerspace?  Or Warp space?   Thanks Mods, if this is in the wrong spot, feel free to move it. Thanks again in advance, You guys are awesome. Dan

If I were to describe a medieval knight, I would just say medieval knight, or what ever they are (case in point, the word "soldier" and the word "knight" invoke different images in my mind even when coupled with the word "medieval." I would not use "soldier" unless the time period warrants. North American Indians had warriors who fought blue coat soldiers. Rome had soldiers who fought barbarians, and of course there are soldiers on soldiers, army versus army, legions - way cool word - versus peasants. In the right scenario the word "legions" is better than the wrod "soldiers").

If one side had metal armor and the other leather armor, then I would write it because I can see it and think the leather armor dude hasn't got a chance against the metal armor dude. I would not worry about what type of metal because the word "medieval" invokes an image. It is however just as easy to write "plate mail" or "chain mail" as it is metal but I would write no further as those words create the image.

I don't know what a Mage is but if a Mage normally carries magic vessels, then just write Mage. Whoever reads your story will know this. However, knowing not all (who read) know what a Mage is I would write "...a MAGE (sorcerer/magician/whatever)..." That's it. I care about what is going on, what is said, what happens. Reveal what the Mage carries as the story progresses. The Mage throws a bolt of lightening, or the Mage cast a spell of sleep, the Mage pitches a potion of invisibility, etc. I don't need to know the vessel of the spell or charm. Not writing about something doesn't mean the required set piece is not there.

Quoted from cloroxmartini ... and think the leather armor dude hasn't got a chance against the metal armor dude.

Reminds me of the Battle of Agincourt... not that I was there, or anything. The French Armour was so heavy that despite their vastly superior numbers, the lighter armoured English longbowmen were able to defeat them.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt

Quoted from DustinBowcot Reminds me of the Battle of Agincourt... not that I was there, or anything. The French Armour was so heavy that despite their vastly superior numbers, the lighter armoured English longbowmen were able to defeat them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt

Lumbering knights in plate mail armor swarmed by the leather armored hoard like ants over a watermelon.