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You're welcome! I'm curious if I may ask, what script was that?
Hey Cam,
It was in My Work in Progress, Box 467. You and Eldave properly sorted me out on my absolute dog's breakfast of a first ever script. Still grateful to this day.
And yeh, you're going to get pelters every now and then, but you don't need it on this sort of challenge, and you certainly don't need the majority of examples I've set above.
Where? Take a look at my "little list" above and point to someone else dropping an expletive or going at this the way you have been for this or the last few OWC's.
Cam, I don't need to point out other peeps words or comments. Believe it or not, I read every single post on these OWC threads and there are numerous comments that peeps could get upset over. Are they dropping "F Bombs"? No, not often, but there are a ton of comments that are very negative and in some cases written in a humorous manner, like I sometimes do. In fact one SSer that you actually pointed out as being someone you appreciate, Cam D, writes some very funny reviews, that could be taken the same way you're taking mine.
Now don't get me wrong, because I appreciate Cam D's reviews, as I appreciate anyone who spends some time and refrains from the usual, Very well written, no mistakes that I can see, Great job, etc. etc, etc.
Quoted from Cameron
You're killing it mate, absolutely sapping the fun out of what is supposed to be an enjoyable challenge. It's like Buzz Killington on steroids.
I'm truly sorry you feel that way. I really am. I think most will disagree with you, though, and my bet is that most get a little kick out of my feedback.
Quoted from Cameron
Folk don't go into this expecting to be battered over the head with a stick in the shape of a Dreamscale review, or maybe they've got that used to it they do. If you've got the smarts to help people move forward with their work, do it in the correct way, like everyone else does. Don't go around abusing everyone's work and thinking that you've done a good job, as trust me, folk just ignore it.
Seriously, sort it out.Cam
Different strokes, bro. If you really think these 1 or 2 line "reviews" that most leave, help peeps in any way, more power to you, but for me, they do nothing.
Everyone has some typos here and there, some mistakes, whatever, but the bottom line is that most peeps don't realize they're making a mistake, because they don't know any better. If no one points those things out, they continue to make the same mistake over and over and over, not even knowing it's a mistake in the first place.
The first rule, the very first rule for this OWC is "Please do not give a score inside the actual script review". I know someone has already pointed this out. I just assumed Jeff was above the rules.
So I went back through the discussion boards for all my scripts here. The interesting thing is, of the seven scripts I have, Jeff has offered his guidance and brilliant teachings on only the three I've entered as OWCs.
I'll re-post them here in order that others can gain insight, knowledge and education that Jeff was so kind, so generous, to take up his deeply valuable time to offer to
Pounding Sand . . .
Quoted from Dreamscale
Oh boy... Misspelling the title? Misspellings all over the place. Very poor. I'm out. Grade - F
Monsanto Man . . .
Quoted from Dreamscale
Kirk this, Kirk that..over and over. ARGH!!! Writing is not good. All sorts of mistakes...everywhere. Story is beyond whacky and going ev ery direction possible. Dialogue is extremely poor...like pisser quality poor. Huh? Why are all these peeps showing up at whoever's house this is? Is the house in TX? WTF? I'm lost...and I'm out.
Oh, the third one is in this OWC. Don't want to out myself so I won't comment on it. Sadly I didn't get my third "I'm out" on it. "I'm out" means so much to me coming from Jeff.
Now, in my signature, I don't offer links to these three OWC works because I don't think much of them myself. Well, actually I liked Monsanto man but it does need fixing.
The other thing I love about Jeff is the opportunity to learn structure, character development, formatting and so much more from reading Jeff's body of work.
Thanks anyway, but I was kinda wanting this thing to die down. I made my point, Jeff made his and I read one of his last reviews and he seems to have calmed down and gave a good one.
Guess we just move on and get on with having a laugh, or cry, whatever takes your fancy!
Cam
P.S. Pounding Sand was dark, liked it though. Give it a tidy and get it up on the regular threads.
On a side note, I finished all the stories. There were some good ones and some not so good ones. Here's a list of my favs:
Microcosm Play Dead Lost Aporcrypha
The Last days of Demons
A toast to Armageddon The 5th Horseman
That's a pretty wide range of stories. Some Sci-Fi, horror, comedy, pretty crazy stuff (I'm looking at you the 5th Horseman)
There were a few others that were just under that level, IMO, so, great job all.
For those wondering, no, I didn't include my story up there, so, I didn't write any of those.
What were some of your favs?
Okay, I will add one tiny bit to the fight here. Screenwriting is not for the feint of heart. I just saw a slogan and it is sooo true. It said:
Trying to be a writer of any kind and never getting negative or harsh feedback is like trying to be a boxer that never gets hit hard.
Are there some comments that aren't helpful, yep, and I might be part of that too. Sometimes scripts invoke such a passionate negative response that you write the first thing you can think of. Most of the time, it isn't good or constructive.
BUT, and this is what I take away from Jeff's and other's comments, when someone says "I'm out on page 2" that, to me, tells me that I failed to keep his attention. That's on me. Not him.
Remember one thing folks and the people that have sold scripts will back this:
The gatekeepers look for any reason to do what Jeff did. For any reason at all, they can toss aside a script and never go back to it. And the difference is that you never find out why. At least Jeff says why he's out.
I've read stories from former gatekeepers who have said if there is a typo on page one, that's an automatic toss. For a typo. Someone asked why? They responded with it isn't the fact that it's a typo, but, it's the fact that if a writer was sloppy enough to not catch a typo, then what other more serious mistakes have they missed?
I've read that most scripts get tossed because they aren't production quality and worthy of a consider. They aren't strong enough.
If screenwriting was easy, wouldn't everyone be doing it (even though it seems like everyone is some times)?
So, whether or not Jeff is wrong isn't for me to say. What I am saying is that scripts are tossed for the reasons Jeff gives. It's up to you what you do with that info.
I'm interested in reading animation, horror, sci fy, suspense, fantasy, and anything that is good. I enjoy writing the same. Looking to team with anyone!
i won't even pretend like i give great insight here, and i can be a dick from time to time (or it at least reads that way) with "notes" but it's tough to give in depth reviews when you have to read 20-30 shorts. I'll be honest, I probably have the wrong attitude when it comes to shorts. I always just think of mine as writing exercises, so while I appreciate in depth notes, and will probably re-write eventually, I'm just keeping my knife sharp. that's what i like about these OWCs.
that being said, someone telling me my story stinks doesn't bother me one bit, it's the hardcore "by the book" crap that annoys me. liking my idea and execution is subjective, pointing out every little rule you read in a book once is annoying. we've all read the same damn books, and we've probably all look at pro scripts... in my case I've read a friggin ton of em.
that type of stuff reeks of a paranoid amateur. I'm not a rebel or anything, (just a few examples I've gotten shit for in the past that come to mind) i use little asides in my writing here and there, i use "we" sometimes. I use adverbs, i use MEANWHILE AND CONTINUOUS, these are all harmless things that the "by the book paranoid amatuer" would tell you are wrong. the rest of the script could be sound, but they'll act like those things will prevent you from ever getting in the door. the thing preventing you from getting in the door is the fact it's almost impossible to get in the damn door even if your cousin works at WMA or something. I HIGGGGHHHLLY doubt these "we's" are keeping you out of the Hollywood system, and have been told by numerous people who are in said door that it's all bullshit. story sells. Go look at pro scrips, blacklist scripts, contest winners... you're probably gonna find a "we" in an action line from time to time. ... to be fair, I've gone overboard with jokey asides that people have claimed "slow the read" and that's not a bad note.
I mean really, just picture an executive 15 pages into a great script. He's licking his chops, this could be the next big Oscar bait hit for the studio... but alas, there is a "we" in an action line. "We see a man in a black coat blah blah." He immediately tosses the script in the trash. Tough break, he really thought he had a good one there. ... think how ridiculous that is.
I mean, if i give an in depth review and see some of those examples, i'll point them out with the kicker "just be aware that others might tell you this is unorthodox" or something, but I don't take away from an actual script unless it's completely egregious. i tend to think most people who enter a contest like this have a handle on basic structure.
real quick on dreamscale, not to pile on, (i get a kick out of this to be honest) it's ridiculous when he spots a typo and then acts like the person is the biggest moron on earth for it. stuff like that kinda makes any real note seem like a joke. you have one week to write a script. most people have work, families, etc. i worked on mine for 3 straight nights, there's a good chance soemone might accidentally use an 's on a word that should just have a S.
I'd list my "work" here, but I don't know how to hyperlink.
"Career" Highlights -2, count em, 2 credits on my IMDB page. -One time a fairly prominent producer e-mailed me back. -I have made more than $1000 with my writing! -I've won 2 mugs... and a thong. (polaroids of me in thong available for $10 through PM)
"The gatekeepers look for any reason to do what Jeff did. For any reason at all, they can toss aside a script and never go back to it. And the difference is that you never find out why."
This isn't my experience, my experience is that most gatekeepers are actually looking for scripts to produce and want to read good stories. Because of this they'll give a typo or two a pass for a few pages and see how the writer handles story, characters and dialogue.
Sure if the first page has a typo on every line, bad grammar, poor formatting etc they might not give it more than a couple of pages... but in the main they'll let the story dictate when they bail.
So I went back through the discussion boards for all my scripts here. The interesting thing is, of the seven scripts I have, Jeff has offered his guidance and brilliant teachings on only the three I've entered as OWCs.
This is classic - complaints about negative feedback coming from a guy who can't spell the title of his script correctly. Really? That's frickin' hilarious. Wes, did you know you spelled the title incorrectly? Would you have known if I hadn't pointed that little nugget of wisdom out to you?
The other thing I love about Jeff is the opportunity to learn structure, character development, formatting and so much more from reading Jeff's body of work.
Oh, wait. Where is your stuff Jeff?
Seems like you have plenty of time on your hands, there, Wes. Just look around and you'll see all sorts of scripts from me.
And when you find them, be a big man and jump in and try to bash them down. Would that make you feel better? Who knows, you may already have provided feedback...and maybe it was actually positive. Let me know, bro. This is quite interesting.
Where is Dustin indeed? I heard he left after an incident similar to what we could be lining up to here if we don't calm down...
On the formatting vs content debate:
Quoted Text
This isn't my experience, my experience is that most gatekeepers are actually looking for scripts to produce and want to read good stories
Yep, that's what I've heard. Take a look at some of the pro scripts on the net, some of them surprise at how ropey a read they are. My fave at the moment are Rian Johnson's (new Star Wars director/writer), some of the Brick script I read just didn't seem to work, and the visuals would have been torn apart if attempted in an OWC!
If you fancy a look by the way, he's gone and put an annotated Brick script, plus Bloom and Looper scripts on his website - http://www.rcjohnso.com/ what a nice chap...
I remember when I first joined Dustin was the king of harsh reviews and he would pull no punches when going over a script. He knocked me around a few times and oddly I was proud he took the time. He also didn't take shit when people crapped on his work I remember which was always a fun read. Still, he helped me with his comments and last I saw he took off to actually start making his own films. All About Janet that you sometimes see in the top right corner was his first film I think. Ballsy to go out there and follow your dream like that which kinda inspired me to do so myself. If you still lurk here D, I hope all is going well!
I think we all have a better idea of what those gatekeepers go through having been through this OWC. 30 some scripts is a LOT to go throw and I will admit I have done my fair bit of skimming of the first page doesn't hook me right away. What throws me out of a script? Typos, misspellings, improper form. Might not be fair, but it's true.
The way I try to approach this is to not give the reader ANY excuse except for a boring story to bail. (Granted you may find that funny considering the quality of some of my previous work, lol) It may not be fair to expect your work to be "perfect" but if you submit jank, you distract from your story which is the real disservice if you ask me.
Also keep in mind this is a one week challenge and therefore mistakes will abound because of the short time frame given. It's part of the challenge and the fact that so many here were able to create and submit so many scripts in such a short amount of time is pretty awesome. Hell, in my case it was a 2 day challenge because that's all the time I could find to knock it out, lol. Fun to do. But brutal.
I think one of the big difference between us commenting on each other's scripts and the gatekeepers is that we aren't looking to buy or produce these scripts.*
We're writers trying to help other writers, so it's a different perspective entirely... and that's not a bad thing.
. . . my bet is that most get a little kick out of my feedback.
Not really.
But I'll tell you what, I'll be happy to be a big man and do this for ya . . . No, I didn't know I'd spelled the title incorrectly. Yes, Great One, you were the one who pointed it out to me. So far it hasn't ruined my career. And it's made me paranoid as hell to a point where I triple spell check and proof read. You've done wonders for me.
But I'll tell you what, I'll be happy to be a big man and do this for ya . . . No, I didn't know I'd spelled the title incorrectly. Yes, Great One, you were the one who pointed it out to me. So far it hasn't ruined my career. And it's made me paranoid as hell to a point where I triple spell check and proof read. You've done wonders for me.
We don't have to like each other.
I'll try to be polite.
Wes, it doesn't take a "Great One" or much of anything to point out mistakes, but the problem is that way too few do...which is why peeps continually make mistakes - because they don't know they're making a mistake!
If I misspelled a title of a script, and someone or everyone baled on it because of that, I'd be very apologetic to everyone. I'd feel like a schmuck. I wouldn't blame anyone for not wanting to read a script that has the title misspelled.
Personally, I thank peeps show find mistakes in my work, because I don't like making mistakes. How could I blame someone for pointing out flaws? If I made the flaws? It's on me.
Problem is, most peeps hate finding out they fucked up. They hate being told they're wrong. Why" Who knows, human nature?
So, I've read or attempted to read at least 3 of your scripts, right? You haven't ever read a script of mine...or even attempted to. I'd say you owe me a few reads, no? I'd love to hear your feedback, brother.