Quoted Text Variety reports that on Thursday night the Writers Guild of America's (WGA) negotiating committee announced its unanimous strike recommendation. The decision also is sure to cause ripple effects within the Directors Guild and the Screen Actors Guild as they negotiate their contracts within coming months. A final decision on striking could come as early as today via meetings of the WGA West board and the WGA East Council. Leaders stressed throughout Thursday's meeting that they could not specify how soon a strike will start. Attendees were instructed that they should go to work today and wait for a call or email from strike captains. But, the trade adds, it's a foregone conclusion that the WGA panels will OK a strike and the consensus is that they'll probably select Monday as the starting day. There's still a chance of re-launching the negotiations with the Alliance of Motion Picture & Television Producers over the weekend. But that scenario's doubtful, given the vitriolic rhetoric that's dominated in recent days. AMPTP president Nick Counter, who has blasted the WGA as being strike-happy and unprofessional, issued a statement saying it was expecting the strike recommendation. "By the WGA leadership's actions at the bargaining table, we are not surprised by tonight's recommendation," Counter said. "We are ready to meet and are prepared to close this contract this weekend. Hopes for a settlement cratered Wednesday night -- a few hours before the WGA contract expired -- amid bitter recriminations from both sides. The meltdown occurred when companies insisted that the WGA drop its demand to increase DVD residuals, including Internet downloads. Writers currently receive less than a nickel for each disc sold but studios and networks contend that DVD revenues are critical for film and TV projects to break even amid sharply rising costs.

I think it's completely degrading to the Writers Guild and makes me wonder if it's a bunch of teenagers running everything. Writers shouldn't get any more than a nickel from DVD sales. Depending on who they are, they've probably received a lot of money from theater profit. And if there was no theater profit, their paycheck is bigger than the average American yearly income.

If I was connected with the WGA in any way as a writer I'd be completely embarrassed.

-Chris

Why shouldn't writers get paid for products derrived from their script? Why ticket sales but not DVDs? Authors get paid for audio books and e-books too, don't they?

Why should the proverbial 'studio suits', who for all intents and purposes didn't have anything to do with the artistic process, get all the money? 'cause it's my understanding, that's where the money will be taken from?

I don't know if you know this or not, but a lot of films today are from writers who were hired to write the script, not spec script writers. And a lot of the time, the director is there along with the writer and two or three other people developing the story. So it isn't a single person writing a script most of the time.


So the average Hollywood screenwriter spends a couple of weeks writing a 100 to 120 page script based on a story that was derived from himself along with three other story people. But apart from the director, he gets the biggest pay check and for some reason he gets a decent Theater Box Office percentage. And he even gets a small amount of money for each disc that is sold, which is in the millions most of the time.

All that for doing even less work than all of you spec writers, since he was only a third or fourth of the story development process.

Now a novel is usually written by one person. And they're usually not hired to write it, and even if they are, they still come up with the story on their own. So unlike Hollywood screenwriting, it's not a story department coming up with something that they'll then give to one man to bang out into a script that will then go on to be revised by four or five other screenwriters.

-Chris

Quoted from Elmer So the average Hollywood screenwriter spends a couple of weeks writing a 100 to 120 page script based on a story that was derived from himself along with three other story people. But apart from the director, he gets the biggest pay check and for some reason he gets a decent Theater Box Office percentage. And he even gets a small amount of money for each disc that is sold, which is in the millions most of the time.

A couple weeks?  Be serious.  Very few people write 100 to 120 pages in a few weeks.  

The writer doesn't get the biggest paycheck next to the director, unless of course you mean after the actors and producers have been paid.  Someone I had a discussion with last week informed me that "I Am Legend" is a 100 million dollar budget movie.  The money left over after Will Smith was paid?  20 million.

The writer probably got about 150k.

Quoted from Shelton A couple weeks?  Be serious.  Very few people write 100 to 120 pages in a few weeks.   The writer doesn't get the biggest paycheck next to the director, unless of course you mean after the actors and producers have been paid.  Someone I had a discussion with last week informed me that "I Am Legend" is a 100 million dollar budget movie.  The money left over after Will Smith was paid?  20 million. The writer probably got about 150k.

That's only Gross pay as well sadly.  After considering taxes, the writer's probably looking at between 65k to 70k.  This whole strike is nonsense from both sides, the writers should already know by now we don't get paid much, so why exactly are they gonna start whining about it now?  This is why producers are pushing as hard as they can to get movies out, because once the writers' guild goes on strike, we will be looking at quite a few re-runs...

I remember Robert McKee saying that every now and then the WGA goes on strike to remind the studios that if they don't write, then nothing happens. I for one don't mind if Hollywood produces fewer films for awhile; I reckon the market is flooded with garbage anyway. When I was a kid, a good film could play at the cinemas for up to six months, but these days they’re gone in a matter of weeks to make way for the next wave of shit to come out of Hollywood.

  

Hollywood has enough purchased/optioned scripts that a strike won't affect it for a while.  The television industry, OTOH, doesn't stockpile scripts.


Phil

Quoted from dogglebe The television industry, OTOH, doesn't stockpile scripts.

We can all look forward to more "Reality Shows..."

Here's an idea :

PIZZA! Ride along "Cops" style as stoner Cody Moley delivers the 'za to the eager customers in his own trademark style...."Like, here's like, your za, man..."

yippee.

Quoted from Kamran Nikhad That's only Gross pay as well sadly.  After considering taxes, the writer's probably looking at between 65k to 70k.

Ok...so 65k for one film. So all a writer has to do is write two to three scripts a year. boo hoo.

And Mike, writers DO write drafts that quickly for most films. They probably get a month before they have to turn in their first draft depending on the type of film it is. If it's Pirates of the Caribbean, that's a different story. But the average film, a draft is completed very quickly and then redrafted a million times by the original writer and other uncredited writers. I'm not saying the final draft gets completed in four weeks. I'm just saying a starting draft from the credited writer does.

-Chris

Quoted from Elmer Ok...so 65k for one film. So all a writer has to do is write two to three scripts a year. boo hoo.

They busiest screenwriters in Hollywood have about one movie produced a year. All the work that goes into writing a GOOD script, research and all, I don't consider it a minor feat to churn out 2-3 a year.

Nobody's saying the screenwriter's situation is inhumane. They're saying it's UNFAIR.

I don't get what your problem is, I really don't. Do you think it's shameful to ask for a fair piece of the pie or are you simply offended that so much money goes into making a movie?

Quoted Text And Mike, writers DO write drafts that quickly for most films. They probably get a month before they have to turn in their first draft depending on the type of film it is. If it's Pirates of the Caribbean, that's a different story. But the average film, a draft is completed very quickly and then redrafted a million times by the original writer and other uncredited writers. I'm not saying the final draft gets completed in four weeks. I'm just saying a starting draft from the credited writer does. -Chris

But then what's your point?

Chris - I'm completely in awe of your opinion here on this matter. WOW. Of course you are entitled to it, but I find it rather absurd, to be honest, that you feel the way that you do about the entitlement that writers have to sales derived from their contributions to the final product.

Why shouldn't they also benefit from the sales, whether they be DVD orientated or otherwise? I am completely stumped as to where you are coming from, even though you have explained already. I just don't understand you.

Also, writing 2-3 scripts a year, I believe, is a mammoth task, given that quality is the main issue involved. So what if a writer churns out 10+ scripts?! That could well explain why there's so  much crap released! I think it's beside the point whether selling one script is higher than any annual wage. That's the industry and that's the pay. Different industry jobs have different budgets and salary scales to work with. It has nothing to do with what the average person earns, nor should the fact that being able to profit more on something you've helped to create be a negative thing.

Good luck with your career, and I mean that sincerely, but if those are your views of writers, then it seems to me that in some respect, you are trying to sell yourself short with your opinions or shooting yourself in the foot. I don't know if that makes any sense, but I hope you get what I'm trying to say!

EDIT - I am basically saying, that if it were you in this actual position, would you still be demanding no profits?! I highly doubt it.

I wouldn't be going on strike about it if I was in the position. And get real, quality isn't always the main issue involved and it's not a mammoth task to write three scripts a year if you were at that level. And especially since crap is mostly what comes out, which means it's not like they struggle over a script for years like Lord of the Rings or something.

I don't think it's wrong for them to get profits. But to stall an industry for even more profits after all they get is ridiculous.

-Chris

Quoted from Elmer And get real, quality isn't always the main issue involved and it's not a mammoth task to write three scripts a year if you were at that level. And especially since crap is mostly what comes out, which means it's not like they struggle over a script for years like Lord of the Rings or something.

Me, get real....? Oh please don't insult me - I am not an idiot! I just can't agree with your opinions - so we'll agree to disagree. Yes, quality isn't always the objective of any studio, or producer, or director, or writer, or actor, or any freaking person in the business, but the point is, it should be!

You wouldn't go on strike about it if you were in their position? Good for you. I hope you are never in a position which makes you feel that you are being treated unjustly, so that you can't ever complain about it!

It's not ridiculous, at all, to want to voice your opinion. It's ridiculous to not to, if you feel unfairly treated.

Quoted from Elmer I wouldn't be going on strike about it if I was in the position. And get real, quality isn't always the main issue involved and it's not a mammoth task to write three scripts a year if you were at that level. And especially since crap is mostly what comes out, which means it's not like they struggle over a script for years like Lord of the Rings or something. I don't think it's wrong for them to get profits. But to stall an industry for even more profits after all they get is ridiculous. -Chris

Well we are paid for our talent, not how many hours we clock in. If a writer is so good that he or she can churn out 2-3 really GOOD scripts a year, then they deserve to be paid accordingly.

A skilled plastic surgeon can get well over $20,000 for a couple of hours work. Just because something doesn't take very long time to accomplish, relatively speaking, it doesn't mean it's not hard or not worth paying big bucks for. People pay for talent.

It's not like a writer spends 6 weeks on his blockbuster sequel and then sips margaritas in the Bahamas the rest of the time. We write CONSTANTLY. And part of the job description is that there are no guarantees whether or not a script will be picked up or produced.

Quoted from Andy Petrou Me, get real....? Oh please don't insult me - I am not an idiot! I just can't agree with your opinions - so we'll agree to disagree. Yes, quality isn't always the objective of any studio, or producer, or director, or writer, or actor, or any freaking person in the business, but the point is, it should be! You wouldn't go on strike about it if you were in their position? Good for you. I hope you are never in a position which makes you feel that you are being treated unjustly, so that you can't ever complain about it! It's not ridiculous, at all, to want to voice your opinion. It's ridiculous to not to, if you feel unfairly treated.

haha. I don't know these little debates have to feel like everyone's offended because we're sharing opinions. My opinion could and may change about this...these were just my first thoughts about this whole deal. Humans today have an inability to discuss issues without everyone getting on edge.

hah. You'll probably be offended by what I'm saying right now.

Anyway, I shared my opinion and so far nothing y'all have said has managed to change it. Probably won't either. And plus, it's harder to explain an opinion on a computer. If we were face to face it would be much easier.

-Chris

As much as you are entitled to your opinion, I find that you don't fully understand the situation.

You seem to think that they're a bunch of money grubbing blood hounds.  Writers are people too, they have taxes and a mortgage to pay.  Since they're not paid on bi-monthly basis like 90% of the poplulation, the rely on their residual cheques they receive in the mail to pay for those.  And sometimes writers can go years without having something produced, what happens then?  They'll probably have to get a day job to pay the bills, which means less time to write, which makes it harder to get something produced.

I also feel that the writer deserves to be payed more.  It doesn't matter if they're not the only mind in the process, imagine if the producers were forced to start writing the scripts.  They've made it in this life as screenwriters because they have a requried talent.  I think they should be payed according to that talent.  Will Smith probably makes more money sitting on the shitter in his trailer than a writer makes for putting months of effort into forming the story.

And don't think that writers are the only ones thinking about this.  I'm sure their will be talks around the director's guild and the actors' guild, not to mention teamsters and all that other jazz.

For the time being, you're only going to notice the effects of the strike when it comes to TV shows.  There's so many movies currently in prodcution that we probably won't notice it until the beginning of '09.

I think you have to imagine yourself in there situation.  If you ever become a proffessional writer(I don't know why you would want to, you seem to be against everything they're for) and fully understand how much work is needed, you'll want to paid more too.

I like to think of it like working in a restaurant.  The servers get paid more than the cooks, yet they're just showing off the cook's work.  Now what happens when the people who make the salads feels like they should be paid more because they make awesome salads?  If you don't give them a raise they're going to leave and that's going to suck because you're gonna have to either have the guy who makes pastas make the salads or hire some guy who's never made a salad before.  The salads are obviously not going to be as good as before and the servers are going to look bad because they have to serve they crappy salads.  

Everyone in this life feels like they should be paid according to their talent.  What makes a writer any different?

I don't know why I wrote this, I'm not that good of a debater and you don't look like you're gonna change your opinion anytime soon.  Nobody wins...

...but you gotta admit, that restaurant analogy was pretty good.

Quoted from Elmer haha. I don't know these little debates have to feel like everyone's offended because we're sharing opinions. My opinion could and may change about this...these were just my first thoughts about this whole deal. Humans today have an inability to discuss issues without everyone getting on edge. hah. You'll probably be offended by what I'm saying right now. Anyway, I shared my opinion and so far nothing y'all have said has managed to change it. Probably won't either. And plus, it's harder to explain an opinion on a computer. If we were face to face it would be much easier. -Chris

This has nothing to do with being offended by your opinion, but moreso your delivery of it. Telling anyone to "get real" ... now that's just plain rude. If you want people to hear you out, then mind how you voice your opinion. If you spoke to me like that face to face, you'd be staring at my awesome dramatic exit out the door. That's what I was trying to make you understand before!

Chris, you seem to think I am offended. I think your tact is off and yet you think I'm making a big deal about the PC brigade. No. How you say something can totally affect the outcome of what it is you have to say. Also, it affects my decision as to whether or not to even stick around to hear what else you might have to say!

Evidently, you may or may not have even thought your own arguement through, in which case I'll leave you be. Nor do I care to try and change your opinion, let me make that perfectly clear. I've said all I have to say.

Enjoy your debate!

Quoted from Andy Petrou Telling anyone to "get real" ... now that's just plain rude.

Tell that to Mike Shelton.

heh. I voiced my opinion. You voiced yours. I'm gonna go get something to eat.

-Chris

I don't have to tell that to Mike. That's the difference.

Quoted from Elmer Anyway, I shared my opinion and so far nothing y'all have said has managed to change it. Probably won't either. And plus, it's harder to explain an opinion on a computer. If we were face to face it would be much easier.

If you feel this way, then you are not an effective (aka: good) writer.  On boards like this, you can take your time to express your opinion.  Think things through before hitting the 'send' button.  Make changes if you have and so on.  When discussing things face-to-face, you don't always have time think think things through and you don't always get a do-over.

Writers are treated like dirt in the industry.  They're only one rung up from craft services and they're not paid that much for what they do.  If they can get a few extra bucks, then more power to them.


Phil

Quoted from Elmer Ok...so 65k for one film. So all a writer has to do is write two to three scripts a year. boo hoo. And Mike, writers DO write drafts that quickly for most films. They probably get a month before they have to turn in their first draft depending on the type of film it is. If it's Pirates of the Caribbean, that's a different story. But the average film, a draft is completed very quickly and then redrafted a million times by the original writer and other uncredited writers. I'm not saying the final draft gets completed in four weeks. I'm just saying a starting draft from the credited writer does. -Chris

Did you even bother to read the rest of my post or what?  In case it was missed, I also said:

This whole strike is nonsense from both sides, the writers should already know by now we don't get paid much, so why exactly are they gonna start whining about it now?  This is why producers are pushing as hard as they can to get movies out, because once the writers' guild goes on strike, we will be looking at quite a few re-runs...

My point was that screenwriters knew from the get go that they get paid for the writing, not ticket commissions OR DVD sales, so why would they bother to change that now?  I mean also take into account that producers are spending more and more publicizing their films, to the point where they're either barely above the point of margain or that they break even all together, think they want to spend more on the screenwriters?  I for one don't think they do.

Would I MYSELF strike?  Absolutely not, do I see why the WGA is striking?  Absolutely.  This is just a really neutral issue in my book.

The original post in this thread can be chalked up to one thing...


Chris is a filmmaker, not a writer.

Hey,

Admittedly, I'm pretty ignorant on the workings of the business (I'll go ahead and assume that you all are more knowledgeable then I, if you are it'd be great if you filled in my blanks) but still I can't resit cramming my opinions into the dialog:

Don't know how much 4 cents is relative to what directors or actors get but it sounds reasonable. If it is the case that the share writers and others get are hugely disproportionate they should probably get more.

I also agree that they should definitely get residuals for material distributed through the internet.

That said, I'm against Unions and striking in general. I think that in general Unions just inflate the costs of services or products while lowering the quality of said services and products.

Fact of the matter is that there are a lot of people willing to do what WGA members do and I'm willing to bet that there are a fair number of that pool could do a comparable job (some of the people on this board for instance), so I guess what I'm asking is if what they're producing is really worth what they're asking for.

If they have exhausted every other option, then I guess they have to do what they have to do, and if they can make out with some more cash more power to them.

Quoted from shelton The original post in this thread can be chalked up to one thing... Chris is a filmmaker, not a writer.

Why do you say that? He might just be a writer with a low self-esteem and sense of worth. Or maybe everyone else is arrogant and narcissistic. On the radio I heard a "industry insider" say that writers were the most full of themselves out of every group in the industry.

sheepwalker

ps

I'd also like to say that even though some people aren't being super tactful in presenting  their opinions I also think people, in general, are too sensitive and should lighten up. Not everything is an attack.          

Just one question....

When a writer sells his/her script, don't they agree to the terms at that time? If they don't like the contract, no one's forcing them to sign...

Having said that, I just want to add that I do think writers are underappreciated. IMHO, without the writers, there would be no film to film.

Quoted from Soap Hands Why do you say that?

Because the projects he has spoken of working on as a Director or DP far exceed the ones he's worked on as a writer.

To answer your question about the relevance of 4 cents against what directors and actors get, it's probably closer to a quarter, if not more.

Quoted from Pia When a writer sells his/her script, don't they agree to the terms at that time? If they don't like the contract, no one's forcing them to sign...

True, but if you have a starting point of 1.2% (What is was in the 80's) versus the current rate of .3%, you're that much ahead of the game and don't have to fight and negotiate as much for more.

Quoted from Soap Hands On the radio I heard a "industry insider" say that writers were the most full of themselves out of every group in the industry.

That insider has never met a production assistant, has he?


Phil

Quoted from Kamran Nikhad That's only Gross pay as well sadly.  After considering taxes, the writer's probably looking at between 65k to 70k.  This whole strike is nonsense from both sides, the writers should already know by now we don't get paid much, so why exactly are they gonna start whining about it now?  This is why producers are pushing as hard as they can to get movies out, because once the writers' guild goes on strike, we will be looking at quite a few re-runs...

60 - 70k for words on a page and most of the time the film isn't any good... sounds better than working all year at a REAL job. Then again when you're working a REAL job at least you earn the money they pay you.

Quoted from Old Time Wesley 60 - 70k for words on a page and most of the time the film isn't any good... sounds better than working all year at a REAL job. Then again when you're working a REAL job at least you earn the money they pay you.

With REAL jobs, you don't have to pay agents and managers.

And then there's all the scotch.



Phil

Quoted from Old Time Wesley 60 - 70k for words on a page and most of the time the film isn't any good... sounds better than working all year at a REAL job. Then again when you're working a REAL job at least you earn the money they pay you.

That's my opinion right there...

I mean seriously...I don't care how unfair they think it is or if it's just how the industry works as far as money goes...if getting paid 60-70k for writing is the poorest Hollywood treats it's people, they're sure livin' the dream.

-Chris

Does the fault for the film not being any good fall upon the person who made 60-70k for writing it, or the person who got paid 3 mil to direct it?  Could be one or the other, could be both, could be neither.

When an actor is in search of that great story and role, what are they looking for?  A script.  Who creates that script?  The writer.  Who gets all the recognition when a film is tops at the box office?  The director and actors.  When the result is the opposite?  The writer.

And a new one to the mix...

What apparently doesn't qualify as a real job?

Writing.

Oh no, writers don't get shit on at all.

Quoted from Elmer I mean seriously...I don't care how unfair they think it is or if it's just how the industry works as far as money goes...if getting paid 60-70k for writing is the poorest Hollywood treats it's people, they're sure livin' the dream.

That's not that much if you're living in Hollywood or New York.  I know administrative assistants who make more than that and they get full medical and dental.  A scriptwriter (for the most part) has to pay for his benefits.

Also, consider this:  electricians, carpenters, and others get paid much more than this because they're union.  I've seen Teamsters at movie sets sit on their asses for most of the day because their jobs were to drive a truck in at the beginning of the day and drive it out at the end.  They're not required to do anything else.


Phil

60-70K is nothing for the financial risk you're taking. A lot of people forgo the financial security of a so-called REAL job to pursue a career in writing and most of them never see a dime. The ones who write stuff that is good enough to be produced should be rewarded for their courage as well as their talent.

Quoted from Takeshi 60-70K is nothing for the financial risk you're taking. A lot of people forgo the financial security of a so-called REAL job to pursue a career in writing and most of them never see a dime. The ones who write stuff that is good enough to be produced should be rewarded for their courage as well as their talent.

Exactly.

I think there's this insane notion that because 65k is "a lot of money" to you and me, you should just shut up and be thankful that you're talented enough to get paid that much.

But if a movie based on a script you wrote makes 100 million, is it really fair to assess that the writer's contribution only amounts to close to one percent, while the actors and director (who by the way clock in way fewer hours than the writer on a project) get 10-20 times that?

Quoted from dogglebe That insider has never met a production assistant, has he?

Now that you mention it, I think he said he was a production assistant.

sheepwalker

Quoted from Soap Hands Now that you mention it, I think he said he was a production assistant.

That's friggin' hysterical.  PA's are no more than glorified gophers who each think that the movie can't be made without them.  Here's a clue for all you PA's:  You're not indispensable.  If something happened to you during the shoot, the director would simply tell someone to get his coffee.

I worked craft service on a film and a PA was really pissed that there were only peanut M&Ms on the table.  He insisted on plain M&Ms because he was allergic to peanuts.  When I pointed out that the plain ones have peanut oil in them, he snapped back that he was allergic to peanuts, not peanut oil.


Phil

Some thoughts.

I do think writers should receive royalties for internet sales and dvd sales.  This just makes sense.

But there are more alternatives now.  I can buy complete series on dvd.  I can download European and Japanese tv shows. And I can watch plenty of independent films on youtube.

All this new strike means is that more television will move to Canada, and some shows I enjoy might get canceled.

tweak

Just a note, it's not just the writers guild that's going on strike. Studios are expecting an Actors Guild strike next June and possibly a directors guild strike.

-Chris

Russell Crowe was quoted as saying (to the effect) that screenwriters should get over themselves and get back to work.  That's pretty funny coming from a guy who makes over twenty million per movie.


Phil

For the record, the allergen in peanuts is in the fat, not in the oil. So you can eat peanut oil and not react.

(Come to think of it, that may be wrong. It may be in the fat, and not in the oil. I know it's not in both.)

My brother is allergic to peanut oil...

-Chris

Dudes -- this is so off topic.

The peanut allergen is a protein, and it would not be found in highly-refined oils.  That does not mean it would not be found in some oils.  It depends on the processing.


So enough with the peanuts.  No more peanuts.

If you check the label on Plain M&Ms, it includes peanuts.  This is so people allergric to peanuts don't get sick and sue the company.

Alright, no more peanuts now!


Phil

Quoted from AnotherWriter Only 57% of WGA writers are working (an increase from last year). Median earning for those that are working is $106,756.00 (also an increase from last year).  In other words, an estimated 28% of WGA writers (writers that have broken into Hollywood) earn $106K or more. Great movies like American Beauty and Shawkshank Redemption tank at the box office.  Most of the money is made from DVD sales -- where viewers discover it for the first time by good-word-of-mouth.  Writers should get financial credit for that. Box office hits that failed to impress audiences don't get repeat viewings on DVD.  Thus, little on the residual checks.  Sounds fair to me. But don't worry, the whole strike issue will be over real soon.

This makes sense with what I have read in the past.  A non-staff tv writer usually writes 3-4 scripts a year making $25-30k a script.  Now, given the cost of living in LA, that's not a lot of money.

tweak

Quoted from Elmer Writers shouldn't get any more than a nickel from DVD sales. Depending on who they are, they've probably received a lot of money from theater profit. And if there was no theater profit, their paycheck is bigger than the average American yearly income.

I wanted to address these points.

What's the difference between being paid for a theater showing and being paid when a DVD sells?  I don't understand.  You are paid by selling a product which you help to create.  In the case of films, that product includes a theater showing, a DVD release, a TV airing, and so on and so forth.  When people watch that movie, they are benefiting from your hard work.  The chair they are sitting in was built by someone who got paid to build it.  The pop they're drinking was bought from someone who was paid to vend it.  What's the difference?

I think your main point here is in the latter half of the statement - they don't need any more money from DVDs because they make a lot of money initially.  Fair enough.  Let's look at that.

I doubt the possibility of finding accurate estimates of what professional writers are paid, so I instead wanted to focus on the fact that a writer's "paycheck is bigger than the average American yearly income."

Joe Ezterhas
Alex Kurtzman
Robert Towne
Shane Black

Now these guys are some of the most successful writers of all time.  But they are NOT writing 2 to 3 movie scripts a year.    They are averaging one a year at the MOST; much less for the ones who have had a full career.

So $65,000 a year, sure.  Still more than the average American.  Don't forget the agent, though...there's 10% off the top.  $58,500.  Not so bad a year, right?  What about two years?  What about three?  People have already discussed the financial risk, so I won't go over it again, but there is a reason that one-time work pays so much more.  Not only that, but Hollywood winds change, and writers just aren't in style anymore.  What happens then?

Look at Joe Ezterhas' page, for instance.  Looks like 17 movies in 28 years (he sold his first script when he was 34...who knows what he did until then).  So that's $1,105,000 total profits if we assume $65,000 per script (I know Mr. Ezterhas in particular was paid significantly more for some of his work, but for the sake of argument).  That's $39,464 per year for the 28 years (so far) that he's worked as a writer.  Still not too shabby.  Minus the agent, $35,517 per year.

Average US income

I dunno.  Doesn't look like our friend is raking in the extreme high-level cash to me.  Looks like he's just a few grand above the median, actually.  But he's got no pension, no job security, and no dental plan.

There's more!  "Legendary, prolific screenwriter Joe Eszterhas has had 17 screenplays produced, and as of 2006, has at least 25 unproduced scripts and treatments collecting dust on Hollywood shelves."  (That's from the IMDb trivia page for Ezterhas)  Ouch.  That's a lot of work that more than likely will never make him a cent.  And he's an enormously successful screenwriter.  I wonder what other Hollywood writer's closets look like...

I bet a lot of wanna be writers find the salaries depressing. More than once have I heard people talking about hoping to sell that 1M script. I guess that would be like winning the lottery...

Quoted from Takeshi I When I was a kid, a good film could play at the cinemas for up to six months, but these days they’re gone in a matter of weeks to make way for the next wave of shit to come out of Hollywood.

Hahaha.  I don't think you get to use that phrase, untill you're like, at least 40.

Heretic,

I don't remember the exact numbers, but I believe Ezterhas makes fairly good money. I'm a fan of his and some of his screenplays has paid him a few M's. He also writes books and stuff. Sure if you divide that by how many scripts he's written, the average might be low, but he's still a millionaire so unless he spends absolutely nothing and has an amazing financial planner helping him, I'd say he's doing alright. He is by far one of the few that makes more than average however.


PS. No wonder writers are heavy drinkers and tend to be bi-polar.  

Quoted from tomson I bet a lot of wanna be writers find the salaries depressing. More than once have I heard people talking about hoping to sell that 1M script. I guess that would be like winning the lottery...

Oh, jeez. Folks here think they're going to write one script and make a million?

Quoted from tweak Oh, jeez. Folks here think they're going to write one script and make a million?

I didn't say here at SS, but definitely that's what a lot of people say in a joking way, but hoping at the same time. That is usually the case when people read success stories. They get their hopes and imagination and dreams going.  Doesn't matter if they are 10yo dreaming about being the next amazing quarteback, moviestar, scientist or whatever. People have big dreams and hopes and I think that's good. Not many countries on this planet where it can actually come true...

Quoted from tomson Heretic, I don't remember the exact numbers, but I believe Ezterhas makes fairly good money.

Ezterhas makes ridiculous amounts of money.  Over two million each for at least three of his scripts, I'm pretty sure.  But I'm not talking about him.

What I'm saying is, look how relatively little money you would make as a screenwriter with the seemingly impressive $65,000/script assumption, EVEN IF you were as prolific as Ezterhas.

Quoted from Heretic Ezterhas makes ridiculous amounts of money.  Over two million each for at least three of his scripts, I'm pretty sure.  But I'm not talking about him. What I'm saying is, look how relatively little money you would make as a screenwriter with the seemingly impressive $65,000/script assumption, EVEN IF you were as prolific as Ezterhas.

I think the $65k a script is not a reasonable assumption.  I still stand behind the $25-30k a script, and that's being generous.  Now, I am talking about tv scripts, not movies.

I wouldn't move to LA to make $65k a year.  The cost of living there is just too high.

tweak

Not only is the money not real great, but the pressure to always come up with new and interesting ideas. Even worse if you're a comedy writer. Having to always be funny sounds very depressing to me.

Btw, I do believe they said on the news that the average WGA makes about 200K/year.

Quoted from Shelton Does the fault for the film not being any good fall upon the person who made 60-70k for writing it, or the person who got paid 3 mil to direct it?  Could be one or the other, could be both, could be neither. When an actor is in search of that great story and role, what are they looking for?  A script.  Who creates that script?  The writer.  Who gets all the recognition when a film is tops at the box office?  The director and actors.  When the result is the opposite?  The writer. And a new one to the mix... What apparently doesn't qualify as a real job? Writing. Oh no, writers don't get shit on at all.

BINGO Bud.  We don't get much credit at all, which is fine, the screenplay by in the credits, and the check for the time and effort put in a screenplay is more then enough for me, but don't demean us and say we're a bunch of lazy sacks who have the easiest job in all of Hollywood compared to a quote unquote "real" job.

Honestly that's a load of bulls***.  How is screenwriting NOT a real job to some people?  We spend a MORE then fair amount of time writing and rewriting as we try to make our dollar.  We meet with producers to meet their standard of liking, and do our damn best to make sure we blow them away with our screenplays.  Not to mention how competitive a profession it is.  Unlike a "real" job, you have to worry about making sure your stuff is original, and more importantly likable.  I've worked at WaMu's teller counter for six months, and as a personal account manager for 2 years.  Was it a pain?  Yeah sometimes, but I honestly think Screenwriting is a hard profession as well for a number of reasons, most of which we all already know.  It's a REAL job, end of discussion, and anyone who says it's easy and that it's not a real job, is full of s***.

But again, I am not for or against this strike.  I want it to end because people may start looking more down on screenwriters then they already do, but on the other hand, I feel the WGA on this one.  I just can't support the decision of striking, under ANY circumstances.

Also, in regards to my 65-70k remark.  I never said that was bad, I apologize if that came off otherwise, but I am saying 65% taxes come with screenwriting, when you have an agent, normally in any REAL job you look at 40%.  But what needs to be cleared is that it isn't always a big check they offer you.  Suppose you get one for 100k.  You are then looking at 35k, which just doesn't seem worth it unless you do it because you want truly want to write screenplays.  And when you're just starting out, you're lucky if you get one screenplay produced since normally your first couple of screenplays won't be made unless they're REALLY damn good.  35k isn't much, and for a year, that's utter crap.  So don't think pay is always good when you're new, because pay is garbage.  That 65k Net pay is only when you're screenplay is REALLY good.

I'll add my two cents and say I'm glad for the strike. Screenwriters are grossly mistreated in the industry and for how much a film and others on the film make, they get next to nothing.

Without the writer there WOULD BE NO MOVIES or TV. All we'd have is documentaries and reality tv. And not even, cause even those are scripted to some degree. Yet Hollywood pisses on them like they errand boys. It's not that a screenwriter can't make a good living, they should be making alot more.

200K is nothing compared to the millions that producers and directors make. It's a gross inbalance that needs to change. I do feel and support the WGA on this.

Quoted from Higgonaitor Hahaha.  I don't think you get to use that phrase, untill you're like, at least 40.

No. I haven't hit the big Four-O, yet.

I'm surprised these guys have waited so long to go on strike. Writers in the studio system are treated like garbage and have been for a long, long time. Seriously, they're at the bottom of the food chain. The only (non-director) writers I know of who seem to make any good money are David Koepp and William Goldman and to be fair, Koepp's adapted one or two of his own works. Maybe there's others out there but none I'm aware of at the moment.

Let's face it alot of these genre films that Hollywood is churning out have been widdled down to a science.

My impression is that producers and other studio bosses basically use these movies as a template.  From there they think all they need to do is just hire any old writer or writers to more or less fill in the blanks.  You know - rearrange the order of certain events, change around the names, maybe toss in a plot twist here or there and then voila - you have a screenplay.  Easy as pie.

This is just my impression from where I stand as an outsider but I'm sure I'm not too far off the mark.

"PS. No wonder writers are heavy drinkers and tend to be bi-polar. "
Pia

Are'u talking about my person, dear?

The best thing of this strike is that lot of scripts that did haven't no chance to come alive will appear now.

An piece of advice to the writers: write a great book then the pros will pay you rivers of money in order to get the rights.

Okay, okay It was just a thought, fellas, but I'm with the writers!

"We're fighters! We're fighters! Not beggar-writers! "

Below is a link to the list of WGA companies.

Those of you with scripts in development or thinking of sending out queries, may want to look through it to see if/how the strike affects you.

http://www.wga.org/subpage_member.aspx?id=2537


EDIT:  An additional list from the WGAe website

http://www.wgaeast.org/index.php/articles/article/c146/

It's a tragedy that things have to come down to a stand down of this sort. But hopefully, everthing becomes settled down and that the writers win. In the meantime, it's a good time to work on one's script.

Gabe

Yeah, I'm doing a doc so the strike doesn't effect me in that sense. However, I'm also developing a reality series (flame me, I know) that I'm hoping to sell. The strike would effect me there, but I'm only at the beginning stages so not really,.

Now is a great time to write scripts fun.  Just write whatever you want and try not to over think it.  Break the rules and have a great time.  Just don't try to sell.  We have to respect these writers on strike.

tweak

Keep in mind that Hollywod has enough movie scripts to keep itself busy for a long long time.


Phil

As a long term writer, I respect the industry and a lot of you older members on this site may remember me!! Some for a big problem I faced not so long ago with a twisted member who no longer comes here!! But I have to say I have no backing for these striking writers, I mean they get paid enough as is!! And new talent, Hollywood always say they need new blood and talent, all us here on SS are IT!! we are that talent and new blood, so where is our chance? We have to make it on our own like any other writer, so these striking writers have to do this alone... And lets face it to the bone and truth!! How many of us would rock our boat if we sold scripts? or wrote for a tv show? I think just as postal strikes the writers should be thankful they are even in a position to GO ON STRIKE!! as all of us could only hope we had the chance to sell a script for a mere $5 let alone 1 mil...

Although I do have a certain degree of support for the writers, but not a great deal as they get paid a lot as is!! And this sort of action TO ME kind of rubs it in my face!! I hope other writers here feel the same, I mean they are getting paid, and we could only wish to sell a script!!! I mean this is MOP, I am not saying all of you should feel the same, but we all have our own view on things!! to me this rubs my face in the dirt, how they can complain about their pay and yet any of us here on SS wouldn't mind what these guys/girls are being paid... It's more than what we are being paid now for our regular jobs and from script sales Right?

Quoted from Combichrist ...I mean they get paid enough as is!!

You said this a couple times in your post, and I feel the need to graciously disagree with you.

Right now, the WGA minimum for a script with a budget over 5 million dollars is approximately $103,000.  Take that, and cut it in half immediately due to taxes and other misc expenses.

$51,500.

If a writer sells one script a year, he will effectively make $51,500.  Not horrible money by any means, but nothing off the charts that would cause anyone to be jealous, and certainly not enough to say that someone "gets paid enough as it is".

The cost of a script budgeted under 5 mil is even less, about $53,000 before taxes.

Rewrites and Polishes, where most writers earn the bulk of their living?  You guessed it.  Even less than spec.

Quoted from Combichrist It's more than what we are being paid now for our regular jobs and from script sales Right?

Not necessarily.  See above.

If you take out the rare writer that gets those lucrative deals for millions of dollars, a screenwriter's tax bracket isn't that much different than the regular blue collar worker.  

I agree with you shelton, but my Opinion is... How can these writers complain when they are in the industry and being paid? I mean everyone on here has the same talent they do!! Only difference is we are don't have the chance they have... Either way you slice the cake they are still getting paid fair amounts for a script... The re-writes well, I am afraid after you sold your work thats it. Your no longer involved unless it's agreed you are whereas you may be paid more or not!! Point being after you sell a script it's no longer your choice what the said script ends up being!! After several re-writes... unless the production comapny keep you on!! therefor you shall be paid more... This is my point, but only my opinion... LOL... If I sold a script a year for what $51,000 I know I'd be happy... Not only for the money but because it also progresses my career that little bit more. So with these writer on strike over pay I find very stupid, I mean ask anyone here...I Am sure they shall agree with either one of us... But I know the point your making... Still, it is a lot of cash and if a writer is not used more than once a year then he cannot blame his pay but his agent or his skill... these are the two main things that'll earn you year round cash... And they have the audacity to complain about it? IMO this is how I feel, I am not saying I am right mate LOL... This is just how I feel LOL...

Quoted from Combichrist I agree with you shelton, but my Opinion is... How can these writers complain when they are in the industry and being paid? I mean everyone on here has the same talent they do!! Only difference is we are don't have the chance they have...

I don't think that's true. Not even close. There are very few writers here who right now have the chops to compete with Hollywood A-writers. If any.

51,000 sounds like a lot of money, but if what you wrote is making millions and millions in DVD and online sales, you deserve a piece of the pie.

You're basically saying: how can they complain when they are working, and thousands upon thousands of screenwriters are not. Well the reason why these writers are working, for the most part, is that they have extraordinary talent. They shouldn't be punished for being better than the rest.

I'm starting to wonder if there isn't a correlation between intellect and position regarding this issue.

How difficult is it to understand that four cents, per DVD, isn't a "fair amount"?

Seth

Quoted from Seth I'm starting to wonder if there isn't a correlation between intellect and position regarding this issue. How difficult is it to understand that four cents, per DVD, isn't a "fair amount"? Seth

I'm inclined to agree.

It's like unemployed people saying people with jobs should never complain no matter how  unfairly they're treated 'cause at least they have a job.

Quoted from Combichrist If I sold a script a year for what $51,000 I know I'd be happy...

You would if you still lived at home and your parents took care of your expenses.  $51K is not a lot of money otherwise.  Look at it this way:

Salary:  $51,000.
Taxes <20,000>     and that's being conservative.
Rent  <12,000>        and that's being conservative.
Insurance <4,000>

And that leaves you less than 15K a year for things like food, utilities, clothes, a car, and a social life, etc.

Not very much.  You may need a second job to be a successful writer in Hollywood.


Phil

Yeah I guess. I see it all differently now actually!! I agree then, it is not that much. As soon as all these things are taken care off you really are left with not a lot!!

This might not be in fashion but what I want as a reward for writing that 'great' story, is to watch my mothers face in the theater while she is experiencing my story. I want to see that glow from her face from when I was a kid and jumped out of the hallway in my 'Captain Sticky' costume that I made. I recited to her where Captain Sticky came from and... The joy was boundless. I want to see her tear as she watches my lifelong dream come true on screen for everyone to see. It's not the money, it's not the fame. It is the dream of seeing,feeling and witnessing a creation unfold into something meaningful and wonderous.

With that said, I feel writers are entitled to their just rewards, and if they have to strike to get them, then let them, maybe it will open some doors for us dreamers.

--Kotton

Quoted from Seth I'm starting to wonder if there isn't a correlation between intellect and position regarding this issue.

While you may be right I would hope that the level of discourse here might be above calling people who disagree with us stupid.

After reading what I have here and from other sources it does seem to be the case that 4 cents is unfair, however I'm still, in general, against striking. It effects more then just people in the entertainment industry, there are a lot of other people that are being effected around LA and I'm sure other places that won't be able to get their kids what they want for Christmas or make mortgage payments.

That said, like I said before, if the producers left the writers with no other choice then the writers have to do what the writers have to do.

sheepwalker

Quoted from Kotton This might not be in fashion but what I want as a reward for writing that 'great' story, is to watch my mothers face in the theater while she is experiencing my story. I want to see that glow from her face from when I was a kid and jumped out of the hallway in my 'Captain Sticky' costume that I made. I recited to her where Captain Sticky came from and... The joy was boundless. I want to see her tear as she watches my lifelong dream come true on screen for everyone to see. It's not the money, it's not the fame. It is the dream of seeing,feeling and witnessing a creation unfold into something meaningful and wonderous. With that said, I feel writers are entitled to their just rewards, and if they have to strike to get them, then let them, maybe it will open some doors for us dreamers. --Kotton

Unfortunately you can't pay your mortgage with "boundless joy". If screenwriting is your carreer and not just a hobby you can't afford to be in it just for the tears on your mothers face. Unless they're deemed a viable currency.

Screenwriters have families to provide for as well.

As a WGA member living in Los Angeles here is a summary of life:

The poverty line is $25,000
The average rent for a one bedroom apartment is $1200.00
The average price for a one bedroom condo:$400,000
A two-bedroom house: $1,000,000
Sales tax is 8.25%
A gallon of gas this morning - $3.56

Someone mentioned this up thread so here is the actual run of what a Guild minimum feature will probably get you:

$103,000 is the starting price.  You get an increment of that up front.  I'm being generous and saying you get half up front so it's $51,500.

Agent/legal fees - 10% so you’re at $46,350
State and Federal lands you at $23,175

And then the project folds and you end up getting a penalty fee of about $1000.00.

So, for nine months of work, phone calls and meetings you get $24,175.

Keep in mind the poverty line is $25,000.

I'm on strike for the future of my union, for my health insurance and my pension.  Right now, it's sadly not about the writing which I love but about the business of writing which always plays like black comedy.  

The speculation around town is that the media companies want to systematically  squeeze out all the unions and to make all internet production non-union (like reality tv) so we can go back to the glory days of Hollywood -- of people working 20 hour days without overtime or health insurance.  

Great post, Tierney.

But don't some writers sell feature length scripts for a small fortune?

Quoted from Takeshi Great post, Tierney. But don't some writers sell feature length scripts for a small fortune?

I was reading somewhere a few days ago, maybe John August's blog, where the upper echelon of writers only makes up about 15% of the WGA.

You're right, Chris, in that there are huge sales for screenplays in Hollywood but there’s also this weird inflated idea of what a screenplay is worth because the big sales are the only ones that make the news.  My guess is that there are only about ten writers working today who get paid more than $750,000 for a feature.  Ten writers with the best managers and agents and lawyers in the world hustling for the seven or so big sales that happen a year.

The one that’s being referenced a lot these days is the Paul Haggis’ Bond script at $4,000,000.  I don’t know the particulars of that deal but a lot of that $$$ has to be a future earning points deal and not a flat out buy.  

The accounting is crazy and you only ever see a fraction of what you’re promised in features.  Four years ago a friend sold an action script to Sony for $620,000 and at the end of it saw $34,000 out of the agreement.  And he’s repped by CAA.

I've also heard that Hollywood accountants have an amazing way of playing with the numbers so that most movies look on paper like they lost money. Therefore, writers seldom seldom see any "points" from promised profits either.

Quoted from Tierney The accounting is crazy and you only ever see a fraction of what you’re promised in features.  Four years ago a friend sold an action script to Sony for $620,000 and at the end of it saw $34,000 out of the agreement.  And he’s repped by CAA.

Jesus, how pissed off would you be!  I haven't ventured into this discussion as I'm on the other side of the pond and...well no excuses really but thats truely shocking.  Writers rights on my banner!

Quoted from Tierney You're right, Chris, in that there are huge sales for screenplays in Hollywood but there’s also this weird inflated idea of what a screenplay is worth because the big sales are the only ones that make the news.  My guess is that there are only about ten writers working today who get paid more than $750,000 for a feature.  Ten writers with the best managers and agents and lawyers in the world hustling for the seven or so big sales that happen a year. The one that’s being referenced a lot these days is the Paul Haggis’ Bond script at $4,000,000.  I don’t know the particulars of that deal but a lot of that $$$ has to be a future earning points deal and not a flat out buy.   The accounting is crazy and you only ever see a fraction of what you’re promised in features.  Four years ago a friend sold an action script to Sony for $620,000 and at the end of it saw $34,000 out of the agreement.  And he’s repped by CAA.

I believe this can happen a lot.  Folks are provided with movies as investments to offset their gains.  Movies are expected to lose cash, so they provide great tax shelters.

If someone is offering up points, I'd assume those points would not materialize into cash, so points should not make or break a negotiation.  Isn't James Cameron having this problem with Titanic?  And he can afford lawyers to fight for him.

I remember hearing an interview on VH-1, where one band had hired lawyers to watch their initially hired lawyers.

tweak

Quoted from tomson I've also heard that Hollywood accountants have an amazing way of playing with the numbers so that most movies look on paper like they lost money. Therefore, writers seldom seldom see any "points" from promised profits either.

There's a difference between gross points and net points.  I forgot which is what but one of them is referred to as 'monkey points' because you're as stupid as a monkey to accept them.


Phil

They showed us your first video in FTV60C.  Honestly, now that I see this, I think this strike is a good idea for screenwriters.  It's not that big a raise, and it really can help support screenwriters who need the money.  On a side note, The Directors Guild and Actors Union's contracts end by I think January of 2008, so IF producers do not comply by the end of December, is there a chance Actors and Directors could go on strike as well?

Quoted from Kamran Nikhad They showed us your first video in FTV60C.  Honestly, now that I see this, I think this strike is a good idea for screenwriters.  It's not that big a raise, and it really can help support screenwriters who need the money.  On a side note, The Directors Guild and Actors Union's contracts end by I think January of 2008, so IF producers do not comply by the end of December, is there a chance Actors and Directors could go on strike as well?

There's a great chance the the DGA and the SAG will go on strike. Studios are expecting. Kind of embarrassing.

-Chris

Quoted from Soap Hands While you may be right I would hope that the level of discourse here might be above calling people who disagree with us stupid.

The boards would, without question, be better off if I kept my opinions to myself. That said, I'll not comment on union workers who would have absolutely nothing in terms of benefits or wages if they didn't, every twenty years or so, strike.

Seth

PS ... Do you think my B/f is cute?

Quoted from Elmer There's a great chance the the DGA and the SAG will go on strike. Studios are expecting. Kind of embarrassing. -Chris

The only people this is embarrassing for are the producers.  It shouldn't be for all of us because essentially, this strike will benefit us in the long run.

Now would be a good time to buy stock in Blockbuster.



Phil

Hey,

Quoted from Seth The boards would, without question, be better off if I kept my opinions to myself. That said, I'll not comment on union workers who would have absolutely nothing in terms of benefits or wages if they didn't, every twenty years or so, strike. Seth PS ... Do you think my B/f is cute?

Stop being stupid. Your opinions greatly contribute to the boards here.   That said, I think they would contribute even more if they were a tad less ad hominem.

I'd also like to add that, (and I'm sure everybody can agree on this) I hope we can get to a point where union workers don't feel that they have to strike every 20 years or so.

sheepwalker

PS

I'm glad you asked. I think he's gorgeous!

Sheepwalker,

You're absolutely correct. I just have a habit, from time to time, of allowing my frustration to show.

Seth

Quoted from Tierney As a WGA member living in Los Angeles here is a summary of life: The poverty line is $25,000 [...] The speculation around town is that the media companies want to systematically  squeeze out all the unions and to make all internet production non-union (like reality tv) so we can go back to the glory days of Hollywood -- of people working 20 hour days without overtime or health insurance.

That's about it...I work in both hollywood and the Bay Area and at the low end of the scale you barely make enough to keep yourself alive, never mind feed a family. A lot of people who work on straight to video stuff (to try and get that career foot in the door) only make a couple thousand per project.

And reality is that even with a good script what sells is the film is a famous actor, an increibly pretty girl, or some easy-to-market premise that can be simply represented on the front of the DVD box or a poster. So anything with a budget under a million is the filmic equivalent of junk food when it comes to revenue potential, unless you get famous later.

Those greedy writers...

On the looking up side the WGA and AMPTP are slated to resume negotiations on the Monday after Thanksgiving.

On the depressing side, Universal and Sony have started suspending actors.  At Universal the casts of The Office, 30 Rock, Bionic Woman and Battlestar Galactica have all received suspension letters.  These letters are sort of a way to hold the talent hostage meaning they are suspended without pay but they are still under contract with their shows and cannot look for work.  Agents of the cast of Battlestar believe that Uni has violated the SAG contract and that the actors are no longer contractually tied to the show and don't have to return. If you're interested in details  try Nikki Finke's blog at: http://www.deadlinehollywooddaily.com/gulp-force-majeure-letters-in-the-mail/

The WGA has come up with a way for you to annoy the studios if you're so inclined.  You can pay a buck and send unsharpened pencils as a sign of protest to the studios at: http://unitedhollywood.blogspot.com/

i can only hope the situation is resloved soon.... tv is about to take a turn for the worst. as if we dont have enough reality tv already.... (though i admit to being guilty of watching Survivor and Kid Nation...)