Related to this whole discussion, I was just told about the following experiment that took place in the 80s - a gentleman named Chuck Ross retyped the script to Casablanca, and shopped it around to various agencies under the original name: Everybody Comes to Ricks.

Though considered one of the best scripts ever written, the results - and rejections - were quite interesting...

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/archive/permalink/casablanca_rejected/

HaHa...that's great!  Good job, Janet!  Excellent post!!!!!

You know, it's impossible to separate the quality of a film from the quality of a script.

Casablanca is considered one of the greatest scripts because it's one of the greatest films. Whether or not it's truly a great script or not is open to debate.

[Rick's note, try and find a post in the screenwriting class (I think) that's an interview with a screenwriter who talks about whether there's any such thing as a great script at all...I comented on it, and I know Sandra did..that's as much as I can remember..it's a brilliant post, full of useful and interesting info)]

Had a different Director and different actors delivered the same lines and same scenes in inferior ways, no-one would ever talk about it.

Pro example: Armoured. Every review slated the script....they said things like "They paid 1.5m for this...they shouldn't have bothered"...very hurtful. The script was very good. Textbook writing, but very good. IMHO, it was a career making script for a Director who just played it as it was to the fullest ability. The wrong Director got it (a good one, just wrong for the film) and made it worse. The script got the blame....no-one actually reads the script.

Amateur example: Mine and Pia's End of the Tour...won a few awards and was nominated and won awards for Best Screenplay...no-one ever read the screenplay (completely different level, I know, but it illustrates a point). No-one reads the script. If the stories poor, they blame the script...without having any clue as to whether they stuck to it or not.

I've read Casablanca. It's a middling script. (By which I mean the film could have gone either way...it was far from a sure fire "classic" in script form) It was the charisma of Bogart, the chemistry between him and another truly great actress Ingrid Bergmann the style of the shooting and every other thing besides that created the final masterpiece.

There's some stories that are so good, they are almost undestroyable. (One of those is Oedipus Rex...a story Aristotle considered almost perfect...no matter how medicore the presentation of it the story grips you). Other stories are brilliant in certain hands, and downright pitiful in others.

You'll have seen this yourselves when a good script on SS, hasn't been handled to its fullest potential when Produced, something that I've been guilty of as well.

I'll grant that a good movie - and a good script - are not synonymous.

Though in this instance, it's worth noting that Casablanca won the Oscar for best screenplay.  (And - to boot - was a "pro" script...and therefore by the logic should have risen automatically to the top of the slush pile on it's own merits...)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0034583/awards

Rick, my friend...you continue to walk down your own 1 way street, no matter which direction the traffic comes from.

When you love a movie, like Black Swan, for instance, you say and site the script over and over as the reason why it's so good.

When I or someone else shows an example of a horrid movie, directed by the writer, even, you say you can't blame the script.

It's just not fair having these discussions with you because you know how to debate and you continually choose not to agree with any other point or option, and make arguments up that are very difficult to challenge.

I'm at a loss on how to get through to you.

I remember the Script Club in which Armored was looked at.  I didn't participate, but really wish I did.  The movie was far from good, and just based on the premise, I can see why, yet you continually quote how great the script was. Do you have it available?  If so, E-mail it to me and I'll look at it, and probably trash it to high Hell.  

We also looked at The Strangers on a Script Club, and the script itself wasn't anything to write home about, yet it made a pretty decent flick, that was quite successful.

Bottom line is that anything can happen with a script, whether it's bad, OK, good, or great.  The point of this thread, though, is that very few Non Pro writers get a real chance for their scripts to have a chance at being a real movie.

I just don't see why you can't just come out and agree with that.

Quoted from wonkavite I'll grant that a good movie - and a good script - are not synonymous. Though in this instance, it's worth noting that Casablanca won the Oscar for best screenplay.  (And - to boot - was a "pro" script...and therefore by the logic should have risen automatically to the top of the slush pile on it's own merits...) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0034583/awards

I'm not sure if you got my point. What I'm saying is that people give awards for best screenplay to great films. Ie there's an assumption that because the film was great, the script was.

No-one reads the script.

You rarely get (if ever) a Best Screenplay handed out to a film that everyone thought was crap. But sometimes the script was great and the film was crap, and sometimes the film was great and the script was crap.

Casablanca is considered a great script becasue the film is a classic. If someone had done a hack job on the film, the script itself would have been slated.

Quoted from Dreamscale The point of this thread, though, is that very few Non Pro writers get a real chance for their scripts to have a chance at being a real movie.

Very few pros get that chance as well.  So what's the point?

Michael, Michael, Michael...

By definition of a "pro Writer", they've already had that chance, and that chance has become a reality...hasn't it?

A lot of those people who "make it" end up writing what other people tell them or rewriting what someone else has written. Not very many get to write what they want and get paid big dollars. Are you sure you want to "make it" if you have to move to Hollywood and write what other people tell you to? Just asking in case some people don't realize what working in Hollywood might actually mean.  

Quoted from Dreamscale Rick, my friend...you continue to walk down your own 1 way street, no matter which direction the traffic comes from. When you love a movie, like Black Swan, for instance, you say and site the script over and over as the reason why it's so good. When I or someone else shows an example of a horrid movie, directed by the writer, even, you say you can't blame the script. It's just not fair having these discussions with you because you know how to debate and you continually choose not to agree with any other point or option, and make arguments up that are very difficult to challenge. I'm at a loss on how to get through to you. I remember the Script Club in which Armored was looked at.  I didn't participate, but really wish I did.  The movie was far from good, and just based on the premise, I can see why, yet you continually quote how great the script was. Do you have it available?  If so, E-mail it to me and I'll look at it, and probably trash it to high Hell.   We also looked at The Strangers on a Script Club, and the script itself wasn't anything to write home about, yet it made a pretty decent flick, that was quite successful. Bottom line is that anything can happen with a script, whether it's bad, OK, good, or great.  The point of this thread, though, is that very few Non Pro writers get a real chance for their scripts to have a chance at being a real movie. I just don't see why you can't just come out and agree with that.

Jeff, you've not shown me one of those bad scripts. Each time you do what the reviewers of Armoured did and blame the script for the poor film. It's not necessarily the case. I'm absolutely sure that in some instances you ARE right...the script was crap as well, but neither you nor me have read them, so we can't make an objective opinion.

Shoot a film and you'll see how easy it is for literally everything to go wrong.

The Armored script should be linked on the script club page. Pia probably has it if not. I've no doubt you'll rip it to pieces, but you rip everything to pieces! There's nothing incredible about it, it's by the numbers, it's purely someone following the likes of Syd Field literally, but it works, because bizarrely, despite the popularity of these types of books...no-one actually follows them.

As for the point about the non pro people, I agree. But remember, Armored was a non-pro script. It sold for $1.5M.

I believe if people write their scripts as well as that guy did, and put them out there to the world, they'll get their shot. A script like that could even filter down to someone like me and become a success, IMO. They fucked it up, it happens. They hired an "arty noir" director for a gritty action flick. Sometimes oddball choices work, sometimes they don't.

There are better writers on here than that guy. No, that's not right. There are people who write in a superior way to that guy, but haven't quite put the whole package together.

I mean, I could literally point fingers and say where I think people are going wrong in comparison to the better pros. That's presumptuous to the point of abject arrogance, but from a critical point of view I feel I can see things quite clearly.

BTW, I never sited the reason Black Swan was so good was the script. The film is even better than the script IMO. Aronofsky took it to new levels. The script is very, very good though. (But it was written with the input of the Director...if you look at the histories of most succesful writers you'll find they had a mentor that helped them refine their style). The only reason I've commented on it so frequently was the script club, and then on Territory because I was comparing it for this "double standard" people were talking about.

I don't believe in this double standard. A script can be extremely descriptive but not over descriptive...if that particular story calls for it.

At the same time a story with less description on an objective scale can be "over" descriptive because the type of story doesn't warrant it.

That's my opinion. I don't have to change it because other people disagree.  

Black Swan was very descriptive, but it can't possibly be described as over descriptive when that description actually made it into the shots of the final film. That's an oxymoron. Clearly it was exactly descriptive enough for that particular type of story.

A less character driven and introspective piece would probably not need that level of description and it would be a fault if it was there.

From my point of view, when a script isn't quite good enough in the eyes of an individual (and it's always subjective), they will give a reason. If they are getting bored reading it, they might throw out that it's over descriptive, or that it's not tight enough..whatever. I think it's because the script isn't quite good enough in their eyes, not that there are double standards.

When a script is written to pro level, you don't notice the writing, you immediatley become engrossed in the story and you often find you can breeze through the whole script.

So my point is that I don't think most pre pros have earnt the right for the shot just yet, either because their scripts aren't quite there, or they just haven't got themselves in front of enough faces.

You've got to take your shot. You've got to forcibly show the world how good you are somehow. They are not going to come and find you, they have no need.

Quoted from Dreamscale Michael, Michael, Michael... By definition of a "pro Writer", they've already had that chance, and that chance has become a reality...hasn't it?

Most scripts that sell never get Produced. There's professional writers who have sold 12 scripts and never had a singular movie produced.

Studioes even buy things just to stop other people producing them. Sometimes for mega bucks.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films The Armored script should be linked on the script club page. Pia probably has it if not. I've no doubt you'll rip it to pieces, but you rip everything to pieces! There's nothing incredible about it, it's by the numbers, it's purely someone following the likes of Syd Field literally, but it works, because bizarrely, despite the popularity of these types of books...no-one actually follows them.

we could use that one for another Script Club...  

The writer was a regular member at Done Deal Pro and caused a lot of stir there. Sort of like if someone here at SS sold a script for "real" money and not just a few dollars.  It's very slow here if anyone feels up to another SC.  

We did a script club on it already!

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films We did a script club on it already!

It was just a test to see if you remembered.  

I'm up for it, Pia.

And, Rick, I want to thank you for your different tone here.  That's all I'm asking for and expecting.

You're right...everything is subjective and no one should be ale to "tell" others what is right and wrong...unless it's plain old wrong...

We all base our opinions on what we believe and hopefully, we believe whatever it is we believe, for a reason.  It's the same thing about following or breaking certain "rules".  Something either makes sense, or it doesn't.  Sometimes, something from left field will work, and others, it won't.

You guys know I'm quite passionate in what I say and "preach".  I do it because I honestly and whole heartedly believe that what I'm saying makes sense and is "right".   I'm sorry that causes friction and trouble in here. That's never my intent.

Who else is up for a new Script Club with this Armored script/movie?