Can we all just get along? Let's be happy.

Jeff, none of my business, but PMs should always be kept private, even if a friendship turns sour. Confidence is still confidence, and something sent privately should remain private. I'm not taking sides, just saying PMs should be off limits. Agreed?

AHEM!

Not a fan of what you guys are doing to my little thread, here.

Just saying...

Totally agreed, Kev.  You hopefully saw that Phil was the one who brought up something about a private PM I sent him years ago.

Why didn't you post this to Phil?

It's exactly what I'm talking about and it's getting out of hand.

looks like this discussion is getting a little out of hand. it's an interesting topic nevertheless.

as someone who isn't completely new nor a veteran of the boards, i appreciate the balance that each member brings to SS. while some are harsh, that's okay. they act as though they're a hollywood producer and that's something that all screenwriters are going to have to deal with. i wouldnt call them a d ick because they're bringing an essential viewpoint to the boards. grammar, spelling, format, etc are all things that need to be perfect if you're hoping to write professionally. luckily, not all of the mods/veterans act this way. you have other "seniors" are much more gentler, kind, and provide an entirely new viewpoint of a script. often times, i receive more critiques about my story from these people (rather than format), and that's just as helpful.

so the key here is balance. but you should also be honest. if you want to tell michael bay that his films smell worse than a contraceptive sponge in roseanne barr's snatch...go for it. but understand that you should say the same thing to his face, as you would behind a computer. i try to do the same in my reviews. if i wouldnt say it in person, that i won't write it.

granted, i've been guilty of trashing a few scripts and it's probably something we should all try to work on. often times it's difficult to determine if someone's just plain stupid or ignorant (until their first post). yet it's easy to tell when someone has put little thought into their script and posted it on the boards, fifteen minutes after writing. if you don't proof read your scripts and it's riddled with basic spelling mistakes, then you deserve to be ragged on a bit.

Quoted from ericdickson As much as I hate Michael Bay, I wouldn't walk up to him and say "I hated Transformers 4.  It was a real piece of sh*t.  I really really hated it.  Just my two cents.  Food for thought.  Take my suggestions with the grain of salt and good luck with your next movie." Bay would tell you to go screw.  Then you would walk off and tell your friends what a rude and unreasonable jerk he was, go to Imdb and spend the rest of the night trashing him with other site members.

Changing the subject a bit...

A couple of years back, I went to a special tasting of all the Sam Adams' beer.  Everyone that the Boston Brewing Company produced was there.  After drinking dangerous amounts of the Utopias (story for another day), I sampled the Sam Adams Scotch Ale.  I didn't like it.

Jim Koch, the president of the Boston Brewing Company was there.  And I told him that his scotch ale was not a good one.  I spent a few minutes explaining (in great detail) why it wasn't a good example of a scotch ale.  Did he change his recipe after our discussion?  Of course not; don't be stupid.  But he did listen to me and he asked me questions and this humble little homebrewer had the full attention of one of the biggest names on the American craftbrewing scene.

If I just said his scotch ale sucked, that would've been the end of the discussion.  And he'd never listen to me again if I ever caught his ear.

Irish diplomacy is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that he looks forward to the trip.  Some people need to learn this.


Phil

Quoted from bert AHEM! Not a fan of what you guys are doing to my little thread, here. Just saying...

Sorry bert.  

But I put a lot of time and energy into trying to get new people to come to the boards only to have them driven away by massively bad treatment.   If you're wondering why I stopped doing it - that's the reason.  

I happen to care about the Simply Script boards and the people here - especially the ones that are too meek to defend themselves.  I don't want to see people bullied - and if I have to bully a bully to stop that - then I will.

This is the scenario I'd like for you to consider - it may seem a bit extreme but it could easily happen and has happened to other sites.  Say a young, emotionally unstable, screenwriter posts to this site - and say his script is terrible.   Say that he gets piled on and some people say very insulting things.  Say that he decides to kill himself over the comments.   Say he leaves a note saying that it was this feedback that spurred him on and the site ends up in the center of a controversy about cyber-bullying.   How would you feel then if you were involved in the pile-up?  

You've pointed out one of the points I'm trying to make.

When you tackle a read and do an exchange with another writer, you're aggreeing to read their entire script and do a helpful review.  You might not wanna read more than 15 pages, or think it's crap, but you do it anyway.  You suck it up, forget your pride for an hour or so and you do it.  If you're not willing to do that, or you aren't sure you can do that, then don't agree to do it.

No matter where your heart is, or if you have the best of intentions, nobody wants to hear that you stopped reading their script by page 15.  You stick it out and offer some positive feedback on what did work.  I bet every script on this site has at least a few good things worth mentioning.  Dialogue, character, set-up, etc.

You don't just mention what didn't work and leave the author hanging.  When you do this, the writer's first instinct is to lash back or simply get frustrated and give up with their project.    

It's not my business what's going on between Phil and Jeff, but I've been on the receiving end of this situation a few times myself.  As some of us have.

I do think that a refusal to finish someone's script and focusing on the negative and forgetting the positive (not mentioning anything at all positive) will leave that person feeling angry and frustrated.  Nothing good will come of it and you will end up in an endless argument.    

I've been guilty of tackling too many exchanges at once and forgetting to review some scripts and burning the other authors.  A couple have lashed out at me over the years, but it was my own fault.  If I agreed to do an exchange, I should've made it a priority to read their scripts in their entirety.  Whether I wanted to or not.

And if I hated the script after page 2 or 3, I would read it anyways because that's what I agreed to do.  For the most part, I haven't been crazy about a lot of scripts, but they all had something that made me smile, laugh or made me think.  

Then you can mention the problem areas that kept you from being more involved in the script.  When you're done with the script, I know you will find at least ONE THING positive to say.  When you attempt to be positive, the author won't take personal offense and be more receptive to tackling the problem areas in their script.

I actually don't think it's wrong to stop reading a script halfway through. If it were a producer reading the script, he/she would do the same.

I'm not going to labor through the script, pointing out every error, if the reader isn't going to return to the boards. unfortunately that happens...a lot. maybe there should be a new guideline where the poster has to be a registered member before posting his/her script? just an idea.

a healthy medium is to to write a little bit and tell the author that if he/she returns, then the reader will go into a much more in depth review. i see it happen often and i think that's the way to go.

Quoted from Dreamscale The scripts in question - the ones that were "trashed" most likely were written, conceived, and posted within hours.  It's obvious little thought and most likely no editing or proofreading took place. And this is the big issue - for me, at least.  It's a waste of everyone's time, especially when the majority of these writers never once post any replies to their feedback and don't post feedback for anyone else either.

Exactly.  It is a waste of everyone's time.  The easiest way to avoid that script wasting even more people's time is not to comment on it.  A negative review bumps a thread the same way a positive one does.

If the script is a waste of one's time to read, why in the heck would one waste more time by writing a review of it?

Quoted from albinopenguin looks like this discussion is getting a little out of hand. it's an interesting topic nevertheless. as someone who isn't completely new nor a veteran of the boards, i appreciate the balance that each member brings to SS. while some are harsh, that's okay. they act as though they're a hollywood producer and that's something that all screenwriters are going to have to deal with. i wouldnt call them a d ick because they're bringing an essential viewpoint to the boards. grammar, spelling, format, etc are all things that need to be perfect if you're hoping to write professionally. luckily, not all of the mods/veterans act this way. you have other "seniors" are much more gentler, kind, and provide an entirely new viewpoint of a script. often times, i receive more critiques about my story from these people (rather than format), and that's just as helpful. so the key here is balance. but you should also be honest. if you want to tell michael bay that his films smell worse than a contraceptive sponge in roseanne barr's snatch...go for it. but understand that you should say the same thing to his face, as you would behind a computer. i try to do the same in my reviews. if i wouldnt say it in person, that i won't write it. granted, i've been guilty of trashing a few scripts and it's probably something we should all try to work on. often times it's difficult to determine if someone's just plain stupid or ignorant (until their first post). yet it's easy to tell when someone has put little thought into their script and posted it on the boards, fifteen minutes after writing. if you don't proof read your scripts and it's riddled with basic spelling mistakes, then you deserve to be ragged on a bit.

Come on.  You're still missing my point.  NOBODY deserves to get ragged on, regardless of the quality.  You don't rag on anybody, or cut hateful one-liners at their expense because you hate their script.  You have to watch what you say to people or you're inviting them to lash out at you.  And when they lash out at you, you have no right to get angry about it.  You invited trouble.  It's that simple.

Quoted from ericdickson No matter where your heart is, or if you have the best of intentions, nobody wants to hear that you stopped reading their script by page 15.  You stick it out and offer some positive feedback on what did work.  I bet every script on this site has at least a few good things worth mentioning.  Dialogue, character, set-up, etc.

I'm going to disagree with you on this Jack.  I'm under no obligation to read a script from start to finish (a big reason why I don't do script exchanges).  If you submit a bad script to a director/producer/agent/whatever, do you think they'll finish it if it's not good?

When I stop after the first twenty pages, I explain why.  Maybe it's poor characterization, or dialog and just a terrible story.  Why read the rest of it?  It's not going to get better.  And since no one, here, gets paid to read the scripts, I did that twenty page read and review as a favor.

The following is a review of someone's script I didn't finish:

Quoted from Phil [Author's name], when you asked me to look at this script, I told you I wasn't fond of slasher films; you told me it wasn't one.  And lo and behold, five people are brutally murdered by some lunatic in the first 3.5 pages.  This was a big turn off for me. I got up to page 35 before I stopped reading.  After the initial massacre, we have another 30+ pages of dragged out, artificial and tiresome dialog by a handful of characters whose names I can't even remember.  What is the point of all that? You have to trim a lot of fat from this script.  And fix your upper margin; that's just cheating the page count and the reader.

The first script I ever read here was so bad that I nearly left the boards.  I chose not to review it as I didn't know what to say.  Saying, "This script stinks like a dog rolling in shit," would've been extremely misappropriate.


Phil

And yes...

I've been guilty of ragging on this one really bad, bad script.  It was that bad.  But I realized that it was wrong to do that and am sorry I did it.

Quoted from Jack Come on.  You're still missing my point.  NOBODY deserves to get ragged on, regardless of the quality.  You don't rag on anybody, or cut hateful one-liners at their expense because you hate their script.  You have to watch what you say to people or you're inviting them to lash out at you.  And when they lash out at you, you have no right to get angry about it.  You invited trouble.  It's that simple.

But I don't get angry when they lash back. Instead, I prove my point.

If you want to tell everyone that their script is amazing, then go for it. But you're not helping them. I've read many scripts on the boards where literally NOTHING works. I'm not encouraging people to trash other people's scripts, but if they suck, you should tell them (in an appropriate way of course)

I have been reading the points from all you guys, good stuff, but I just want to pop back on here to re-emphasize what is the main issue here, from my point of view, and why I even brought this up in the first place.

The function of this board today is a little different than it was just a few years ago.

More traffic, more people, more scripts getting found.

The main point:  At the heart of all this, I am just trying to raise the "professionalism" of the boards a bit and make it a little more welcoming to newcomers.  Not to stifle people.

I think (hope) these are goals that everyone can (mostly) agree with.