Okay, so I'm gonna take *someone's* approach and just not bother reading all the replies here. (You know I love you...)

But I'm kinda torn on this one. On one hand, we shouldn't tolerate outright trashing. I mean, seriously, what's the point? To show how clever and cruel we can be? Shouldn't that kind of energy be going into our scripts?? Plus, how will we ever learn from our mistakes (which, I believe, is the whole idea of this forum) if instead of constructive feedback, we get bashed into our corners before we've had a chance to fix the problem?

Still, that said, if we're serious about doing this, then we've got to have a tough skin and the bashing can help to develop that.

How about a nice medium? Your script is utter crap and you're a moron...but this is what you can do to fix it

And on a side note, thanks huge for the "read" of my feature, Jeff. No, really, you rock!! :p

Quoted from bert If you are looking in my direction with that comment, I assure you that was not my intent, and I find it unfortunate that detour was taken. In fairness, I can also see how you might think that -- but there are legions "guilty" of this at various times and we all know it. I kind of think that time may have arrived, and the tally is pretty clear -- provided that people really meant what they voted. I hope so. The main thing I take away from the conversation is this:  Every new script from a new unknown author should be treated as a potential new member.  Please do not take a total dump on them. Helio always springs to mind during these conversations.  Generally acknowledged as a fine storyteller, though his English is a bit wonky.  How would he be received on the boards today? I think I will be taking these forward -- in an attempt to make the board more professional and just a little more welcoming in general: *  For unknown authors, if you cannot say something instructive or encouraging, say nothing.  It will have to be case-by-case, but I (and the other mods) will be judging a little more critically going forward, and if the post comes up missing you'll probably know why. *  For unknown authors, one totally negative review is enough.  Until the author shows up, do not pile on -- or at the very least, your post should bring something new to the table. *  These rules do not apply to known members who post a turd; gloves remain off, as we assume they can take it and would want to know. *  If it is an author who posts numerous scripts and never shows his face on the boards, again, one post alerting others to this fact is enough. Always remember that Shorts with no activity sink off the boards pretty fast; ask yourself "Are my comments really important enough to bump this awful script to the very top of the heap -- or is it better if it just gets slowly flushed away?" Any additional thoughts or some disagreement with this?

I agree 100% with this.  

Don

I vote zero tolerance. We could have a really bright but also very green twelve year old on here. Do we want to dash his dreams because we're having a bad day?

Unfortunately as humans, we can be sometimes prone to slips in judgement. Boards are dangerous that way because we don't exercise the same kind of cautions we would out there in the physical reality.

Also, I like to try and find good in every script and usually I can. Totally trashing scripts is unnecessary, serves no purpose and is classless.

I do add a little here though...

We could for fun, (those of us who don't mind) submit our scripts into a Bash and Trash Thread and ask for people to have a blast.   That's different.

Sandra

Quoted from irish eyes Listen... If the Irish and English learn to put aside 800 years of hatred, im talking pilaging,raping ,murder, stealing land and murder and thats just from the english...(did I say murder twice) and get along through SS(Im looking at you ARTY and COOP)

Hey, what did I do? Oh yeah, all of the above...oops

I don't see how trashing someone is productive...unless the writer is a dick.  

This entire thread and discussion is rather baffling to me, still...and based on a few posts, I don't see much difference in what's being said or how it's being said.  I mean, seriously, one post started out saying something to the effect, "Damn, I want to bash this because it's terrible, but I can't anymore."  If I had posted that, not only would it be deleted, but I'd probably be banned.

The other odd thing here is the fact that "only if the author is a dick" choice has received 8 votes, only 2 behind the top choices.  Is this supposed to be serious, or another joke?

But then again, the whole philosophy of treating a potential new member differently than a current or old member, is also pretty strange.  basically, the idea is to have multiple takes on a script, based on who wrote it.

But then again, I guess that's not that strange after all, and really is how things work here and in the world.  There are those who can do no wrong and there are others who can do no right.  Attach Blake Snyder's name to something and the room will grow silent in awe.   Throw out a quote on Eli Roth, and people will run for the hills.

And please note how I decided to use Pro writers as opposed to SS writers, as I didn't want to open up the flood gates again.

Quoted from Dreamscale This entire thread and discussion is rather baffling to me, still...and based on a few posts, I don't see much difference in what's being said or how it's being said.  I mean, seriously, one post started out saying something to the effect, "Damn, I want to bash this because it's terrible, but I can't anymore."

Yeah, I saw that.  Then he left genuinely useful feedback -- and he was soundly chastised by a few other members.  I wasn't sure what to do, so I just left it all.

This is all a work in progress and we just do the best we can, you know?

Do you think we should do absolutely nothing in response to a perceived problem?

That is also a solution, sure, but probably not the best solution.

Quoted from Dreamscale The other odd thing here is the fact that "only if the author is a dick" choice has received 8 votes, only 2 behind the top choices.  Is this supposed to be serious, or another joke?

Yeah, that was a joke.  A joke that ended up getting several votes -- so there you go.

Quoted from Dreamscale ...the whole philosophy of treating a potential new member differently than a current or old member, is also pretty strange.

But those are the scripts that tend to get ripped the worst, so we are just going to watch those a little closer.

It is probably not perfect, but I do contend that the conversation was useful.

For me, anyway.

Bert, I do feel your pain...I honestly do.

There are no easy answers in life or in this situation...and there most likely never will be.

The thing(s) that really bug me, though, is the inconsistencies and flat out lying that is flying around.

There was a time when I would purposely be as nice as possible to writers I hadn't seen before.  When I'd spend 30 minutes going over the very basics of writing, again and again, and again, usually never hearing a word back.

Believe it or not, I still engage new writers and members as much as I can, while preaching the Quid Pro Quo mentality SS requires and lives by.

Every once in a while I lose it and say things I obviously shouldn't, in a way that sends some A-Holes through the roof.  And I apologize for that, and I actually mean it.

The way this is playing out, it's making me leery of posting any feedback to anyone, in fear my words will be attacked or misconstrued to the ;point of it being another "trashing" of a poor script.

The whole thing just really has me pissed off and left wondering what the fuck is going on and why.

The only thing that sends me through the roof angry is when someone forces in their two cents and then they get upset when you dare to disagree on certain points.  Instead of having a discussion, you're forced into agreeing with this person or you're a blind idiot who doesn't know his craft.

Then these members rally their little team together to gang up on you and tell you how wrong you are because you dared to disagree with a veteran member of SS.  

"Well so and so's been here awhile and you should listen to them".  

Oh really?  What if I think they're wrong?  And what if I think their work sucks?  

I don't outright dismiss criticism and I've always rewritten projects here based on the suggestions of reviewers, but I have the right to disagree with some of those criticisms.  

Comments like "I can't get past page 2" aren't gonna fly with me, nor should they be acceptable to anyone else.  The script might be crap, but you don't tell someone their script is crap.  You tell them about a useful book on format, give them some pointers on proper structure, or how to set margins.

If your intention is to be helpful, then read the entire script and take careful notes, or at least point them in the right direction by suggesting books on the subject.  Offer suggestions for change, as many folks here have done for me and it's been invaluable.  But when the feedback is entirely angry and dismissive, I typically tell that person to go screw.  There's no need for that.  

If you act pompous and dismissive of someone's work they're not gonna return with a "Gee, golly, you're so right about everything you said.  This script is a real piece of sh*t.  I'm so glad you stopped by to share your expertise".  The writer will most likely tell you to go screw yourself.  And I won't blame them.    

It's become a contest to see who can have the last word.  Everyone should quit trying to be so clever.      

I used to mention format, but I don't anymore because it seems you're allowed to write anyway you want these days. So I skip that unless it's totally wrong, like wrong font, margins and such.

Blackout was my first picked up feature and I had for the first time ever used BOLD slugs...being a little superstitious, you can bet I will always use that now!  

As far as harsh critique goes, I have learned not to comment at all on a script I didn't like unless I was asked to read it. No one seemed to appreciate when I didn't have much but praise to give.  

There's a big difference between 'trashing a script' and 'trashing the author'. If a script has no merit whatsoever, as in, EVERYTHING sucks, yes, the writer needs to know that, BUT the writer needs to know WHY. If the writer is new, as in no posts and a script that hints at a first effort, then comments should be addressed accordingly.

Nobody, likes negative feedback. Writers need to seperate themselves from their script. For a newbie, that's also something that needs to be learned. Now, if the comments are directed at the writer, well, that's a different story. I don't think there is any call for that.

Quoted from Eoin Writers need to separate themselves from their script. For a newbie, that's also something that needs to be learned. Now, if the comments are directed at the writer, well, that's a different story. I don't think there is any call for that.

I understand you and I agree; however, so many writers put their lifeblood into scripts that (even with the common logic their brain tells them) still, they are often too sensitive because they truly can't detach from the words or perhaps it's the intent behind the words that's the killer.

On this note I want to share part of an interview with Jack Lemmon where he discusses his inability to detach himself from the role he played.



Sandra

I think you guys are missing the point her again.

The scripts in question - the ones that were "trashed" most likely were written, conceived, and posted within hours.  It's obvious little thought and most likely no editing or proofreading took place.

And this is the big issue - for me, at least.  It's a waste of everyone's time, especially when the majority of these writers never once post any replies to their feedback and don't post feedback for anyone else either.

I thin these are the only circumstances I'm aware of when I've trashed a script without following that up with advice and help.

Quoted from Dreamscale The scripts in question - the ones that were "trashed" most likely were written, conceived, and posted within hours.  It's obvious little thought and most likely no editing or proofreading took place.

You have absolutely, positively no way of knowing any of this.

Your assumptions might be entirely wrong -- which makes them even more cruel, in a way.  That is the point you are missing.

And it is generally just the "faceless" new guys that get such disrespectful treatment.

Nobody tells Phil his script is like a dog rolling in diarrhea -- even if it is!  None of us would dream of speaking (or posting) to another regular member like that.


And it is not just about you, Jeff.  Nearly everyone is guilty of this at one time or another, and we are making an attempt to change it.

Quoted from bert And it is not just about you, Jeff.  Nearly everyone is guilty of this at one time or another, and we are making an attempt to change it.

I hope that's true, Bert, as I feel like I've been singled out here repeatedly, even right now with you quoting one of my "trashing" comments.

I'll do my best to adhere to these implementations, most likely by avoiding feedback in general, but I will say this again and leave it at that.

If a script sucks, and I mean downright sucks, it should be fair game to what it deserves...and it doesn't deserve much respect, IMO.

Same goes for anything, be it a movie, a book, a product, a restaurant, an outfit, you name it.

Kid gloves are fine in many situations, but definitely not all.