So, time for another lazy Saturday afternoon Moderator Question, requesting your thoughtful consideration and input.

First off, nobody will question that Don puts up some crappy scripts from time to time.

We all know it -- but it is Don's choice -- and we put up with it as part of the boards.

Let us emphasize that for a moment -- Don's choice.  It is how he wants to run things around here.

Now, sometimes one of these horrible scripts will take off with comment after comment about how horrible the script is -- every new poster trying to one-up the poster before him with clever adjectives for outright horribleness that may or may not incorporate diarrhea, or dog poop, or calling into question the author's age, grade level, or and/or sexual preferences.

*  Sure, sometimes it is fun and interesting to read those threads.
*  Many times the author never even shows up -- no harm, no foul.
*  Sometimes the author does show up -- angry or accepting or thankful or hurt or some combination of these.
*  And maybe, sometimes, the author sees it, but never comments and never returns.

Now, sometimes the scripts ARE an utter waste of time and space -- whether that needs to be verbalized or not -- but I emphasize once more:

Point one:  It is Don's choice to post them.
And another point:  I am starting to think that sometimes reviews of this sort reflect negatively on our house here -- and I will sometimes see conversations to this effect on other forums.

So the question put forth is this:  Is it time to stop tolerating the outright trashing of scripts?  How much is too much?

Hmmm, I wonder "who" this is regarding...

In that person's defense, let's be clear that many have and continue to do this, in 1 way or another.  Yes, sometimes, diarrhea, dog poop, age and sexual preference comes into play, but hopefully it's done in a comedic way, or at least meant to be comedic.

Then again, as Best points out, many of these scripts that get "trashed" completely and honestly deserve the thrashing they receive.  Is it a problem to say that a script is extremely poorly written and thought out?  Is it a problem to say I personally hated this script?

You know, all joking aside, the funny thing is that none of his is ever a problem until someone decides to make an issue of it, by jumping in and calling names and causing a ruckus.  Is that any better or more tolerable than the potential issue being raised here?

Bert,

I agree wholeheartedly with you bringing this up as a topic for discussion.  I've refrained from commenting on the thread which (obviously) prompted this one.  But since the issue has been raised...

In creating and maintaining Simplyscripts, Don has done the writing community an absolutely wonderful service.  He's created a forum where writers can meet others of like minds - share work, discuss tips and solicit (hopefully) constructive criticism.  This is of immeasurable benefit, a great thing.

The key word here is *constructive*.  Now, I'm not saying that there isn't room for considerable disagreement.  And there should be.  People should feel free to disagree on SS - that's part of what makes this place special.  You get so many different opinions and views.  We don't have to like each other, or think highly of each other's work, if it's not warranted.  

BUT.  In my opinion - these opinions SHOULD be respectfully worded.  They can be straightforward and honest.  But no personal attacks, no comparing scripts to dog poop, no insults or criticisms that are meant simply to hurt and not to help.  

**Excuse me, folks - but we're all writers here.   If a person really thinks a script is abysmal, it's quite simple to say so in a NICE way.  If you can't come up with words that don't hurt unnecessarily to express your thoughts...then, well, you're not much of a writer, are you?***

When malicious posts are allowed to continue, the negative effects are threefold.

1) It says a HELL of a alot about the person posting them.

2) It scares off newbie writers that probably just need a bit of encouragement, and tips from those of us who are more experienced.

3) It DRAGS DOWN THE REPUTATION OF SIMPLYSCRIPTS - makes this board look like an unprofessional mess, both to potential new members, AND TO INDUSTRY PROFESSIONALS WHO MAY BE VIEWING THE BOARDS.

I personally believe that malicious posts should not be tolerated on Simplyscripts.  And if a member cannot conduct themselves in a respectful manner to other writers, they should be permanently banned for the good of the rest of the community (as opposed to just firespotting, and deleting posts on a case-by-case basis.  That takes up too much of a moderator's time, if the infringer has continually proven themselves incapable of professional behavior.)

Bert,

Good question.

It is clearly difficult if a script is posted which is  poor, ok really poor, ok really c**p. Should we be annoyed? after all we weren't asked to read it and it's not our site. Most of the time the log line, or even title page gives you the clue.

If I read a poor script I feel indifferent, rather than angry. If I feel an emotion beyond this I need to ask why "I" feel that way, as it is about me, rather than the script.

Personally, I think the responses can be too harsh and as you have pointed out "can" lead to a frenzy of "let's beat" the author. Not something I like and lets think for a second, does this make SS a better place? Not so, IMO.

As part of a solution, I think reviewers should try and discrimate between newbies (given more slack, more guidance, suggestions etc, whatever) and those who have been around before(less slack). Then we should try and spot the "I've posted many times but never reviewed" posters(perhaps less slack). I am comfortable at reacting differently to the different types and if we need feedback from moderators to know the difference, maybe this could be supplied.

So, I will vote in the middle and hope SS can keep a level head, otherwise it is will be off putting to those who are keen, but need to learn and maybe made a mistake first time around. I know I did and I am glad I didn't run away, but it was a close run thing.

I'm guessing you have been down this road before.

cheers

RD

Quoted Text First off, nobody will question that Don puts up some crappy scripts from time to time.

Thanks, Don! I appreciate it!

I don't think a rule is in order. It would be difficult to know where to draw that line. Sometimes the best way of encouraging or discouraging behavior is through group reaction. If enough people vocalize their disapproval of the tone of a review, it tends to moderate things over time. Not perfectly. And a writer has to harden himself to a degree when posting work.

I was not trying to question a person's age. My point was that we don't know where a writer is their development, so why crush him? Why discourage someone who is trying? I have not read the script, so I will amend my comment in that thread.

Yeah, there's a handful of people you make it a point to trash peoples scripts, just for the sake of doing it.  And you know who you are...?

I'm always for people being 100% honest, sometimes brutally so, but no one and I mean no one should be in the business of crushing people's dreams and aspirations.  This should not be tolerated.  Feedback is best if the reviewer point out flaws and weaknesses and offer ideas and inspiration for improvement too.  Well it should work this way.   After all we are all here to learn, improve, and help each other out.  I believe this is one of the very foundations of SimplyScripts.  I'm sure the last thing anyone here wants to do is scare new writers off.  Not too mention, most of the time you have no idea who's on the otherside of that keyboard.

Just my thoughts... going back to ghosting...

Ghostie

Having submitted my first script on here a short while ago and reading the feedback posts, I thought I'd give you my thoughts on the issue from a newbie's perspective.

I knew that the script I submitted was relatively poor in comparison to some that are on here. This was my first so wasn't expecting fireworks. I wanted to gauge what I was doing right/wrong and what were possible strengths and weaknesses in the way I wrote.  Yes, there were major flaws/errors in what I did, but I took the feedback on the chin. There were a lot of extremely valid points made which I will be taking on board. I didn't go out and celebrate like I'd won the lottery as some were a bit harsh. I must just say that is in no way having a pop at anyone who commented!

For new submitters, these things can be a bit daunting, and I can well imagine people with a skin less thick than mine would pack up and not bother coming back. Having said that, I think people should be able to comment freely on what they read, but maybe offer constructive points to the writer to at least get some basics right.

I don't think there's ever an instance to be a total dickface in a review unless the author was being a dickface first.  And if the author shows up after a few insulting reviews, then I think that author has a right to be a dickface in return.  

That said, while I don't agree with "totally trashing scripts", there's a lot of worse things people can do/say in the real world about your work that doesn't include comparing it to dog crap.  I think it's a waste of fucking time when one right after the other chimes in on a bad script where the author isn't even around so they can pitch in their 2 cents - that, I think, is more annoying than someone comparing the script to dog crap.  Once one person starts sounding off then it starts a chain reaction of trolling and superdickery.  That shouldn't be tolerated.  

But I guess to do that you need to go to the source, in which case perhaps cutting down on "totally trashing scripts" could be a good thing.  It's unnecessary and I think more people may just see you as a prick rather than trying to help, in which case you're just wasting everyone's time.

"This script sucks worse than dog shit and the writer is obviously a dumbass.  But I hope this helps."  I mean come on.  That's just trolling.

Crikey! Didn't see the thread that has prompted this.

Maybe all the bickering - that is largely the product of testosterone with no place to go (hint: get out and away from your computer more) - is best off ringfenced here in this one thread.

In all seriousness, though, I can't stand reading some arsehole blurting on with their 'this is sh*t' nonsense. If you don't like a script, you don't need  to voice your displeasure with words that ultimately work as validation of your own perceived superiority.

Surely the rule of thumb is simply: if we were in the real world at a Simply Scripts bar and you read a script with that person in front of you, would you use the words you do from your keyboard? No. Didn't think so.

The most amusing thing is that I've called these nonsense peddlers out before and seen them come back with their dummy spat out, warbling at the audacity to decry their genius reading of a work.

For me, it's also worth observing that the better writers tend to veer clear of the script bashing. When I look at the consistently most helpful, thoughtful and knowledgeable readers, I can never recall them acting like a child calling a script [enter the silly term here].

My singular contribution added, I'm now off to see The Grey.

P.S. Spot on, Ghostie.

Case by case,

If a script is awful, I don't think we need to say it in a nice way. I think we should refrain from insults and especially personal attacks. "Diarrhea" and "dog poop" aren't ideal vocabulary, for example. But if a script sucks, the writer needs to know it sucks and more importantly, they need to know why it sucks and whenever possible, we should offer possible solutions to the problem. If we stay honest, objective and detailed in our responses, I don't think we need concern ourselves with how the writer might take it because whether they like it or not, we are being constructive.

Frankly, a writer needs to learn to take criticism, especially harsh criticism. Otherwise, they should quit. No one says you have to agree with every review. If someone makes a personal attack or rather a personal remark that's not merited, I think the writer has the right to respond accordingly. Otherwise... quit. Seriously.

At the same time, the board has a problem with gravitating toward bad scripts, especially stuff like The Cabin, Cannibal, Damn You, Bruce and 3 Nazis in a Foxhole. I think we should encourage personal responsibility when it comes to this stuff. Members need to consider if they want new writers to come in and see The Cabin as the hottest thread on the boards. Personally, I don't. But I don't think any new rules should be instituted.

On the other hand, there's cases where the writer might have a narcissistic complex and feed off negative feedback, going so far as posting a ton of bro douchebag YouTube videos that have nothing to do with scripts on the site. Obviously, you guys know what I'm talking about. This is when I think things get especially counterproductive and a mod might consider stepping in.

And for fuck's sake, don't post if you're on a bender! I see this less and less nowadays but it's definitely been a factor in past flame wars.

Nevertheless... Case by case with just a tip in the direction of Screw 'em. No holds barred.

In answer to Berts question.  Yes!

Well half the time it's really quite tricky to tell if someone is new or not - if they post on the boards then it becomes clear.

If it's so important to be gentle to newbies, then have a 'New to Script-writing' section where people can post in the knowledge that feedback will be tailored.

People learn loads from other people's feedback - and people take a lot of time out to read scripts and feedback.

I'm not too sure I've so much sympathy for those who post simply as a copyright/ repository/ chance to get aired, and give nothing back.

Quoted from Ledbetter In answer to Berts question.  Yes!

Finally, a voice of reason!  Well put, brother LedHead.

James, I'm with you as well, but I do have a soft spot in my heart for The Cabin and of course, the granddaddy's granddady, "Chris Halverson's Cannibal".

Many of you others seriuosly need to relax and not take everything so damn seriously.

BEGIN RANT:

If any of you honestly think that I go out of my way to purposely trash scripts and writers on a normal basis, without trying or wanting to help, you're simply delusional.  I know for a fact that many SS'ers will stand up for me and make it clear that I have helped them on numerous occasions and gone way above and beyond, on my own personal time, for no other reason than to help.

END RANT.

Quoted from James McClung ...I think the writer has the right to respond

Yeah - if they are around.

Quoted from James McClung At the same time, the board has a problem with gravitating toward bad scripts

This is the more pertinent issue. Don't know how you solve it though.

Can someone explain to me the difference between the "case by case" category and the "Sometimes maybe if the author is a dick" category?

James

Quoted from jwent6688 Can someone explain to me the difference between the "case by case" category and the "Sometimes maybe if the author is a dick" category? James

Case by Case means sometimes maybe if the reviewer is a dick.

Quoted from mcornetto Case by Case means sometimes maybe if the reviewer is a dick.

I disagree. The writer can be a sweetheart but if their script's garbage, it needs to be pointed out to them. It's not enough just to say it needs work. This has been the case before.

Schadenfreude i/ˈʃɑːdənfrɔɪdə/ (German: [ˈʃaːdənˌfʁɔʏdə]) is pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others.[1]

I'll admit, when I read a shitty script, it makes me feel better about my own. I try not to jump on the band wagon anymore once the author has taken some licks. I like to be first to the party for a good bashing.

When I read a freshly posted script and get ready to torpedo it, only to find someone else beat me to the point... "Sunnava!"

Yes... Schadenfreude...

James

I will vouch for Jeff helping people out extensively, including new members. I know of many examples.

I don't condone attacking a script just for the sake of it. Being honest about its flaws, yes. Where is the line? Who can say. Best not to bother moderators with having to police this kind of thing.

Positive:
it helps the person develop thick skin against criticism.
they're being honest.
the review often gives you several ideas on what to improve on.
if they like something, they'll let you know.

Negative:
crushes people's spirits.
certain scripts get more attention.

That's what I came up with. It's people's form of expression. Granted it could be tamed, but why? People are giving their time to read something of yours for free. they should have the right to review it anyway they like.

Jeff and Phil give good feedback as they trash your script. Jeff gives longer feedback which I am amazed he can do. lol. And lucky for me, I was already trashed so I developed a thick skin. .

My thoughts, Gabe

Quoted from jwent6688 When I read a freshly posted script and get ready to torpedo it, only to find someone else beat me to the point... "Sunnava!" Yes... Schadenfreude...James

Now, that my friend, is some funny shit.  Hopefully enough has been said.  If anyone's feeling are still hurting, go read "Chris Halverson's Cannibal".  There's no way you won't feel better.

Quoted from Forgive I'm not too sure I've so much sympathy for those who post simply as a copyright/ repository/ chance to get aired, and give nothing back.

I believe Don started this website because he loves scripts and wanted it to be a site for screenplays. Produced and non produced.  I doubt the forum was the main idea behind it.

Anyway. I remember a kid named UsaKing. His scripts got trashed a lot. I thought that was sad because as messed up as they were, I actually saw some talent there. He will never be main stream, but neither will John Waters.  

Quoted from leitskev I don't condone attacking a script just for the sake of it. Being honest about its flaws, yes. Where is the line? Who can say. Best not to bother moderators with having to police this kind of thing.

This is a good point. How are we supposed to go about enforcing "zero tolerance?" At what point does a harsh review become trashing? Can one sarcastic remark too many put it over the edge?

Zero tolerance is zero tolerance. If there's any measures to be taken against this sorta thing, I don't zero tolerance is the way. How often do scripts get ruthlessly trashed anyway and more importantly, how many people are actually in on it when they are trashed? Quite few, I'd say. Even Damn You, Bruce! started to get good reviews after a certain point.

A few last thoughts.

1) it's not just Jeff, although i better deal with this now. I almost left SS because of a dreamscale once over. I asked Don to remove my script from the OWC, apologised for getting involved and suggested I withdraw from SS. He refused, bless him, and I'm still here. I simply felt inadequate.

I was fresh to it all, still am, but the brutal onslaught to a newbie was overpowering, when you don't really know what it is all about.

But lets be honest others have done the same. Who is the writer, what do they know, what could they offer? Are rarely asked.

Actually, not so long ago, i was  going to start a thread called, "Who's lost it this week?", as it happens to a lot of readers. Every now and then someone out of the blue, maybe not a usual suspect,  has a go at a script. Which leads me to a few suggestions;

Rule 1 : if someone has beaten up a script, don't follow suit. All you have to say is I agree, maybe then look for more positive suggestions.

Rule 2: try not to repeat the same thing. Ok a bit like (1) but we can all have seen those who choose to repeat the same arguments. Let try and avoid that.

Rule 3 : try and see who the writer is, if you really want to let fly.

Rule 4. : think of another rule as I'm running out of them!!!

I love this site and before anyone thinks different, the best feedback and most detailed advice I have ever received was from Jeff, after the following OWC. Life is not always black and white but maybe we can separate honest, from cruel.

We all know the difference and it up to us to apply this.

I'm going to bed and will let you lot fight all night long whilst I snore.

Ps saw Crouching dragon hidden tiger tonight.. Haven't see it for a while. Gosh i Love that film. Isn't that the kind of thing we should discuss??

Quoted from James McClung ...stuff like The Cabin, Cannibal, Damn You, Bruce and 3 Nazis in a Foxhole.

This is where the "case-by-case" comes from.

"The Cabin" might have been the first, but it is a periodic problem -- and today's skirmish, which is actually quite minor by comparison to some in the past -- just got me to wondering about the consensus thinking on the boards.

Quoted from Janet It DRAGS DOWN THE REPUTATION OF SIMPLYSCRIPTS - makes this board look like an unprofessional mess, both to potential new members, AND TO INDUSTRY PROFESSIONALS WHO MAY BE VIEWING THE BOARDS.

I also think this is more of an issue today than it has been in the past.  Hardly a week goes by these days that we don't hear about something good happening for somebody.

So maybe a small paradigm shift is in order.  Just a tweak.

Quoted from jwent6688 Can someone explain to me the difference between the "case by case" category and the "Sometimes maybe if the author is a dick" category?

A subtle distinction.  I was primarily talking about you  

Quoted from leitskev Where is the line? Who can say.

Some may not believe it, but I do take deleting posts kind of seriously, and often feel kind of uncomfortable acting as a censor.

That is why I ask general stuff from time to time.  It helps to know how people on the boards feel about a topic like this.

Can it not be said that one mans criticism is another mans attack?

I've seen scathing reviews be met with appreciation and honest sincerity and I have seen people who dig ever so slightly at a writer’s fragile ego and he/she explodes.

What exactly is trashing defined as?

Case in point-

I reviewed a script and was short and not so sweet. In fact, I was a bit of a$$hole. I don’t think I was over the top but Don disagreed and pulled my post and called me on it via a PM.

I, at first thought he was dead wrong and I still think he was being a little hard on me, but bottom line is...

It's his site and the definition of harsh falls under his definitions, not mine.

I reposted a comprehensive in depth detailed critique of his script and posted it instead.

The result,

The writer never showed up for either review.

BUT it did teach me that I should be mindful of how harsh I should be and that the eye in the sky IS watching.

Shawn.....><  



_______________________________________________

I think there’s a difference between harsh reviews and ones that are just cruel. You can be harsh without being mean. Honesty is often used as a shield when the true goal is cruelty. People who claim their cruel (not harsh, cruel) criticisms are just being honest are in many ways the least honest people of all. They’re just being mean. Honesty is just their excuse for it.

Secondly, there’s no reason to get upset if a writer doesn’t come around. Readers need to get over any sense of entitlement. What members get out of this community is entirely up to them.

Yes, you need to be able to take criticism. But it’s generally not true that you’ll be ripped to shreds in this industry. If your writing isn’t good enough, you’ll just be ignored.

Contrary to what some would have you think, the feedback you get in the industry (if you’re lucky enough to get some) is actually quite positive. The people in Hollywood that I’ve met have been for the most part really nice. Very busy but polite. They don’t just trash you the way a lot of inexperienced people might think. My experiences have been surprisingly positive.

And people in Hollywood generally appreciate a good attitude. They really do. Attitude is important. It’s one of the most important assets you can possess.

Most of these arrogant know-it-alls have written very little. Most have never worked on a production and have no idea how movies are really made. Their ideology is more pet peeve based than from any practical experience. They have poor attitudes and negative views of the industry in general. They hurl insults in the guise of help and hide behind the banner of honesty when they’re called out. If that’s the help you’re looking for, it’s all yours.

So, yeah, a horse may be lead to water, but if the cowboy is planning to drown him, he’s not really doing the horse any favors.


Breanne

Quoted from Dreamscale Maybe it's about time for another sabbatical?

Maybe it's time for you to grow up!

Quoted from Dreamscale I will return to my constructive ways and leave out all references to diarrhea, dog poop (by any name imaginable), and other bodily excrement.

You are about as constructive in your reviews as Hitler was in solving Germany's problems back in the forties.  You are nothing but a frustrated writer who lives with his parents and has nothing to show for in his life.  Rather than try to make everyone as miserable as you, do something to make your life better.

Jeff, you told a new guy that his script smelled worse than a dog rolling in shit.  How the living fuck is this even close to be constructive?  I can almost guarantee that Kamil will not show his face around here again because of you and your misery-sharing attitude.

You talk about about I crapped on other people's scripts?  Fine, pull out the comments from my last ten posts and I'll do the same for you.  That's not enough?  How about the last twenty?  The last fifty?  The truth is that shitting on people's scripts are all you do.  I can pull more crap out of the last ten or twenty reviews of yours than you can in the last five hundred of mine.  Why?  Because I want to help writers; you just want to put them down to make yourself feel better.

I'm putting the killfile back on your name.  I recommend that others do the same.  If anyone has any questions in how to do this, feel free to pm me.

This site is so much better when I can't read your immature hate-filled nonsense.


Phil

Hi Breanne - you've made some good points here, but some of them I don't figure.

Quoted from Breanne Mattson Readers need to get over any sense of entitlement. What members get out of this community is entirely up to them.

My input is someone else's output - and vice versa.

Quoted from Breanne Mattson Yes, you need to be able to take criticism. But it’s generally not true that you’ll be ripped to shreds in this industry.

Because if you're meeting people, then they often like your stuff.

Quoted from Breanne Mattson The people in Hollywood that I’ve met have been for the most part really nice. Very busy but polite. They don’t just trash you the way a lot of inexperienced people might think. My experiences have been surprisingly positive.

I've met production people, and actors - the actors in particular always think you're ace. Dodgy scripts aren't going to get you there though.

Quoted from Breanne Mattson Most of these arrogant know-it-alls have written very little. Most have never worked on a production and have no idea how movies are really made. Their ideology is more pet peeve based than from any practical experience. They have poor attitudes and negative views of the industry in general. They hurl insults in the guise of help and hide behind the banner of honesty when they’re called out.

Do you mean Dreamscale, here? I just think you're wandering somewhat.

Quoted from Breanne Mattson So, yeah, a horse may be lead to water, but if the cowboy is planning to drown him, he’s not really doing the horse any favors.

No. No, he's not. Erm. Thanks for that.

Quoted from Forgive My input is someone else's output - and vice versa.

That doesn’t make any sense. You can learn from reviewing whether the writer responds or not. Some writers may post a script just to hook up with filmmakers. You can review it if you want but getting upset when the writer doesn’t respond makes no sense. If it bothers you that much, you can just quit reviewing the scripts of people you don’t know or those you don’t think contribute. It’s that simple.

Quoted from Forgive Because if you're meeting people, then they often like your stuff.

Even those who pass on your material are generally nice about it.

Quoted from Forgive I've met production people, and actors - the actors in particular always think you're ace. Dodgy scripts aren't going to get you there though.

I’m talking about people you meet during the pitch and sell process. Those others come later.

Quoted from Forgive Do you mean Dreamscale, here? I just think you're wandering somewhat.

I mean arrogant know-it-alls in general. I’m not wandering at all. The thread is about trashing scripts. I made a point about the people most guilty of that.


Breanne

Quoted from Breanne Mattson I’m talking about people you meet during the pitch and sell process. Those others come later.

You may want to reword this in terms that Jeff can relate to.  He's not (and never will be) at the pitch and sell process.


Phil

You know, I support most every writer here including you Phil,

If all you are going to do is focus on Jeff and continue making demeaning remarks, you may as well remove your previous threads accusing him of making demeaning remarks.

The whole "I hate Jeff" thing is well understood and doesn’t need to be ground any further into the ground.

Or are you simply calling him out in hope of getting him banned?

Shawn.....><

There's a popular bandwagon on this site that's been an issue for some time, and it has to do with finding new and quicker ways of cutting someone's work to shreds.  

This is nothing more than a reflection of the writer's own insecurities and need to display their so called "superiority" over the other members.  It's the same three or four jokers that have been lurking and trolling around this site for years.

There's a way of letting a writer know the areas of their script that needs work, and then there's the point where you're only amusing yourself and desperately trying to amuse your peers.  It's a joke, and a tired joke at that.  

Some have the nerve to suggest that this is simply "constructive criticism" and then when you're called on your questionable behavior you try to argue about it with more or less the same ugly sarcasm.

If this post upsets you, then you know you're guilty.  STOP IT!  

  

Quoted from Ledbetter The whole "I hate Jeff" thing is well understood and doesn’t need to be ground any further into the ground.

You're absolutely right Shawn,  Jeff is the victim here.  He's never done anything to deserve that kind of treatment.  Has he?  

Doesn't work anymore Michael.

Troll elsewhere if you please...

Shawn.....><

Okay - I'm going to accept most of what you've written back to me, as you've got some valid points. Accepted.

But I'm not entirely taken with some of the below stuff.

Quoted from Breanne Mattson That doesn’t make any sense.

It does make sense. If I say x,y,z on your script, that's what you take from it. You can ditch it if you want, but it's still output that you are receiving. Else, you need to be more clear on this point.

Quoted from Breanne Mattson You can learn from reviewing whether the writer responds or not.

I completely agree - in fact I think you can learn more from reviewing than from being reviewed - but surely this is the point for absent people? If the writer does not review, then he does not learn, and then there is an imbalance, as only one party is reviewing. If both parties review, then there is learning on both sides, and a fair balance.

Quoted from Breanne Mattson Some writers may post a script just to hook up with filmmakers.

I don't really care for this - there are loads of websites that you can post on just to link up with people - anyone posting here should know that feedback is emphasized - if not, then they should take time out to figure the site first. Otherwise - what's wrong with circalit or the like?

Quoted from Breanne Mattson You can review it if you want but getting upset when the writer doesn’t respond makes no sense. If it bothers you that much, you can just quit reviewing the scripts of people you don’t know or those you don’t think contribute.

It doesn't upset me. Not in the least. To be honest (if you'd allow) I just think you're using emotive language here. Far from being upset, I simply think that people should make a contribution. There are other web-sites. Nobdy makes people post here, but it's a great site for immediate feedback.

This isn't the only site I'm on - like most people here - one of the main benefits - immediate feedback - whether people like it or not. They can post elsewhere if they don't need the immediacy, or if they just want the script to be available.

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

Simon

Quoted from Breanne Mattson I think there’s a difference between harsh reviews and ones that are just cruel. You can be harsh without being mean. Honesty is often used as a shield when the true goal is cruelty. People who claim their cruel (not harsh, cruel) criticisms are just being honest are in many ways the least honest people of all. They’re just being mean. Honesty is just their excuse for it. Secondly, there’s no reason to get upset if a writer doesn’t come around. Readers need to get over any sense of entitlement. What members get out of this community is entirely up to them. Yes, you need to be able to take criticism. But it’s generally not true that you’ll be ripped to shreds in this industry. If your writing isn’t good enough, you’ll just be ignored. Contrary to what some would have you think, the feedback you get in the industry (if you’re lucky enough to get some) is actually quite positive. The people in Hollywood that I’ve met have been for the most part really nice. Very busy but polite. They don’t just trash you the way a lot of inexperienced people might think. My experiences have been surprisingly positive. And people in Hollywood generally appreciate a good attitude. They really do. Attitude is important. It’s one of the most important assets you can possess. Most of these arrogant know-it-alls have written very little. Most have never worked on a production and have no idea how movies are really made. Their ideology is more pet peeve based than from any practical experience. They have poor attitudes and negative views of the industry in general. They hurl insults in the guise of help and hide behind the banner of honesty when they’re called out. If that’s the help you’re looking for, it’s all yours. So, yeah, a horse may be lead to water, but if the cowboy is planning to drown him, he’s not really doing the horse any favors. Breanne

SS needs a like button.

Quoted from dogglebe You may want to reword this in terms that Jeff can relate to.  He's not (and never will be) at the pitch and sell process. Phil

Meeeeeow!

It's Saturday night. Lets all go have a few beers!!!  

I’m voting case by case,

I honestly like the honest feedback some people give but can understand why some newbie’s like me would find it difficult to take or find it offensive. You never like to hear your work sucks especially if you worked long and hard on it but sometimes you need that brutality to help you develop.

I think all the different opinions and attitudes on SS is what makes it different, if we were all robots saying and sounding exactly the same, it would be very boring and unproductive IMO

I’m not one for personal attacks but I don’t mind a bit of banter if it is light hearted and not mean spirited. I’m certainly not one for calling an author names for no good reason and as for people who leave scripts and don’t comment. I just try not to comment on their scripts now which suits me fine but I think it’s a shame because some of the scripts aren’t bad but why waste the time if they can’t even be bothered to even thank the person leaving feedback. It’s just politeness IMO, all it takes is a simple “thank you” for looking at my script. Just my thoughts anyway.

What has always amazed me as a newbie is how many replies the crappier scripts (not to be harsh) get over the better ones, and I’m even guilty of that myself. Guess it’s easier to be negative sometimes.          

Steve

P.S  R.I.P Whitney Houston, just found out she has died while writing this, she was only 48, damn shame!

Quoted from Grandma Bear It's Saturday night. Lets all go have a few beers!!!

Sunday morning here so having a few coffee's recovering from last night's beers

Not sure what the question is, but there's never a need for outright trashing a pre-pro's script.

I think you've got to adapt to whom you're talking to...if it's an experienced writer, or someone you know well theres's more leeway, but if they're relatively new you should encourage them or stay quiet.

Quoted from CoopBazinga I just try not to comment on their scripts now which suits me fine but I think it’s a shame because some of the scripts aren’t bad but why waste the time if they can’t even be bothered to even thank the person leaving feedback. It’s just politeness IMO, all it takes is a simple “thank you” for looking at my script. Just my thoughts anyway.

Many people may not realise there is a forum where people discuss their scripts or if they do they might not be familiar with responding on forums.   They aren't submitting them to the forum, they are submitting them to the web site.   There can be many reasons they don't respond that have nothing to do with politeness.

I, honestly, do not have any issue with harsh reviews.  However, I don't and will not ever tolerate insulting remarks about the author.  You don't know who these authors are and you don't have any "right" to make assumptions about their character.  You can tear their script apart as much as you like, hopefully constructively, but leave the author out of it.  

That includes remarks like this...

Quoted from Someone Please, work on your grammar and sentence structure.  If you're still in 2nd Grade, ask your teacher for some help after school.  There's just no excuse for this, IMO.

Quoted from Ledbetter If all you are going to do is focus on Jeff and continue making demeaning remarks, you may as well remove your previous threads accusing him of making demeaning remarks.

Apples and oranges, here.  Through my constructive criticism, I'm trying to get Jeff to stop posting hate-filled comments on everyone, especially the new guys, like Kamil.  Saying comments like I'd rather eat a homeless man's shit than finish reading your script. doesn't help anyone.

And I know he never used these words, exactly; it is his style of constructive criticism, though.

Quoted from Forgive Meeeeeow!

Snyder couldn't save this cat.



Phil

Your review reflects on you as much as the script.

Zero tolerance.

If the author's a dick then they don't deserve feedback, and the constructive approach is to ignore them and focus on scripts that are worthy of attention.

If you comment on a script, your primary intent should be to aid the script's writer in bettering their work.  Reviews which are clearly written with the intent of being "entertaining" do not accomplish this.  Reviews with excessive profanity or creative criticisms rarely accomplish this.

As Breanne rightly states above, reviews on Simply are offered in the spirit of generosity and selflessness.  I think it's generally pretty clear if a reviewer is keeping that in mind or not.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films I think you've got to adapt to whom you're talking to...if it's an experienced writer, or someone you know well theres's more leeway, but if they're relatively new you should encourage them or stay quiet.

I disagree. I've read a lot of noob scripts and I feel like many of them start out with certain habits and mentalities that need to be done away with right away. The sooner, the better.

And while I think that they're entitled to some leniency when it comes to format, some of them botch it so bad that it's as clear they barely did any research. More a symptom of carelessness than inexperience IMO.

Better to be selective what you let slide than allow writers to repeat their same mistakes in four or five future scripts just because they're finding their footing. Honestly, I'm finding more and more beginner writers feel the same way and are open to tougher feedback.

The idea is for everyone to stop posting these kinds of smart a** comments and to stop amusing yourself with one liners under the guise of being "constructive".  And that's been a problem on simplyscripts for years and drives a lot of people away.

It's not like Jeff dropped by and all of the freakin' sudden it's a problem.  This is an ongoing thing on the forums and its not fun, funny or constructive.  There's a crew of members here that rally around each other and encourage this script bashing crap, and if you have the nerve to disagree with these people you're told you're out of line and way off base.  How dare you question a veteran member.  Please.

It's ridiculous.  One of the previous posters said it right.  It's a lot easier to be negative than constructive.  Constructive means reading a script in its entirety and taking careful notes.  You can hate a script by page three, and that's okay, but don't spend an entire "review" cracking bad jokes like Rodney Dangerfield.

News flash.  This is discouraging to the writer!  But I think many of you know that it's discouraging and are just waiting for the backlash so you can argue and crack more f**kin jokes.

Weak.  I've been gone awhile but I see some things never change around here
  
  

Sorry guys, gals, and Phil...I was enjoying a lovely filet mignon dinner with my parents.  Yesterday was their 50th anniversary.  Very nice to be able to enjoy it with them.

Phil, I know you're trying to bait me into saying things that will most likely get me banned, so I'm sorry, but I can't play your childish games.  You and I both know you are a flat out lair and cheater and others on here know as well.

To think that you're seriously trying to say you haven't posted completely condescending and ill-will intended feedback, for no other reason than to egg someone on to a fight or just to put them down with something you alone thought was funny, is the actual funny part.

If you think you do or ever could provide half the constructive feedback that I do on a daily basis is also ludicrous.  One of the big reasons you don't like me is because I've correctly trashed some of your scripts and you just aren't used to seeing that, and were never able to get over it.

I always found it odd how you'd PM me in the past and try to get me to go after Screenrider or whoever else was bugging you on that day, and if you want to say that's BS, don't be too surprised if I pull out those PM's and show the forum the real you.

But, don't worry, I'm not that kind of person, whether you realize that or not.  But, you keep up your BS shit-talking about me and I will, just for clarity's sake.

Phil, go back and re-read my post about the throwing of stones while living in a glass piece of shit apartment, and ask yourself if you're really being true to yourself and what you're preaching here.  It's not about your last 10 or 20 posts, Phil, it's about reality, and you need to somehow find a way to get into it. Maybe Janet can help?  I don't know, but Screenrider and I are praying for you.

My 2 bobs worth:

I admit my old buddy Jeff was outta line for some comments (which he has apologized for). If he had not included the 'dogshit' and 'fucking pathetic' lines, then this thread wouldn't exist.

I thought we were gonna do something about people posting scripts but never replying to reviews? This is what causes half the problem!

I think if a new script is posted, and the writer doesn't acknowledge this by say, 2 days, then it's fair to say they aren't hanging around. Then the regs aren't wasting their reading time.

Or else, make it so an account is needed to post.

Cheers all
stevie

I'm sorry, but I'm quite upset with a number of people's comments that seem to be aimed at me, whether or not they mention my name, exactly.

'Jack", you appear to be aiming your comments at me, and I'm very surprised, since I was the only one that I can see who gave you very detailed, great feedback on your script, "Kirkwood", back in 2008.

I spent many hours with my detailed notes and feedback, and I highly doubt anything I said isn't something you agree with and most likely changed in later drafts.

This is just 1 example of so many in which I've gone above and beyond what any other SS'er offered, and all for the ridiculous price of 100% free.

I'd like to hear back from you on your thoughts on this, Jack...and if I took your words wrong here, my bad, but I doubt that's the case.

The two sides of this argument - first, Breanne is completely right in everything she says. No one in Hollywood has the time to trash anyone, and on top of that it would be bad business for them do to so. So no need to thicken up anyone's skin as long as they can take a few hundred "no's" for an answer.

The other side of the coin is that because of the hundreds of thousands whose chief impetus for writing a script was merely having an idea creep into his or her head, Hollywood now has very high walls and strong gates to keep most of us out.

Enjoying following this one from a distance, please continue...

Dreamscale,

No I wasn't talking about you or aiming at you.  But I'm just saying is all.  If we ever got into it, I don't recall the situation.  

In general...

But there are some folks that love none other than bashing other people's work as if it were a sport.  You have to admit that this is a problem on simplyscripts.

I've called people out on it before but was told to keep quiet because I haven't been around long enough.  BS.

Sorry if you felt you were targeted.  But you know what I'm talking about and so does everybody else, whether we can admit to it or not.  

HI


Mark

Jack, I can and do freely admit that I have done this on many occasions, but, IMO,, nothing I said was incorrect or unwarranted.  Sure, some things I've said were meant to come off humorously, but again, we see this from time to time and for the most part, it's quite funny.

If that's such a bad thing, I'm guilty and I plead no contest.  But, it's so obvious that many of the actual offenders now seem to forget that they too have done the exact thing, time and time again.

But, more importantly, this whole thing is obviously aimed at me, whether your intention was aimed at me or not.  In life, you have to take the good with the fucking ugly, and I'll stand tall and proud, knowing that I've gone above and beyond, time and time again for many, many writers and their scripts in here.  To attack me or try and discredit me is beyond uncool.

The funny thing is that, many have talked about the "pack influence" here, or anywhere for that matter, and now, it seems that it's uncool to stick up for me, based on a few "influential" SS'ers, who we all know damn well.

If you guys don't like what I have to say, so be it. If you think I don't know what I'm talking about and provide feedback, again, so be it.  You want to call me out on critique, bring it.  I'm prepared and ready, and Jack, if this doesn't apply to you, that's cool, as I didn't think you and I had a problem or beef.

As I said before, I wasn't talking about you.  

I'm adding my own experiences with certain people here and you are excluded.   It just so happens that you are a part of this discussion on the forum.

I just went back and re-read your Kirkwood review and your notes were awesome!  It was hard to take, but I didn't make a federal case out of it.  

And if you read my earlier posts on this forum I mentioned that we ALL need to be careful what we say to each other and lay off the one-liners that are meant to be hurtful, hateful and sometimes fueled by jealousy or the need to lash out to anyone who dares to call you out on your BS.
  
This has been a terrible problem here since I joined six years ago and it's usually the ones who've been here the longest that throw their weight around.

And Kirkwood is a piece of sh*t.  I re-read it a few days ago.    

Jack, as I PM'd to you, I apologize for assuming you were referring to me.  We're totally cool, as far as I'm concerned

I appreciate that you cleared this up, and BTW, as I said in my feedback to Kirkwood, it was far from "shit".  You're a good writer and Kirkwood showed so many positive writing qualities...and a Hell of alot of time and effort in terms of attention to detail and research.

Thanks, man.

Awesome! I'm still the only one to vote on the "Don't even care, not a problem"... I expectected better categories from you, Bert...

Aren't you like a mad scientist or something???

James

Off to bed, so I shall not retort... Til the morning time.

Case by case.

I think, sometimes, people can get carried away. A funny negative review can make it a must read, which in turn just feeds the frenzy. But enough is enough, you don't need twenty reviews of people trying to one up each other and just solidify how bad this script is. That is out of line. You said your piece, move on.

When I first joined here, I think it might have been in it's infancy, but there was a script called Axe Massacre which was destroyed by Balt and a few others. What was funny about that, was the writer was so adamant he was right and everyone else was wrong. He's probably gone on to be successful but at the time, what made that whole thing amusing was his refusal to see where he went wrong.

That kind of reaction, I think, warrants the ridicule he ended up with. People were trying to help him and he wanted none of it. . I gotta admit. I  find that type of script trashing amusing because he got some good solid advise and in turn, responded like a spoilt kid that never got what he wanted for Xmas.

On the other hand, bashing people's scripts for the sake of it is just... sad. But if we go along the lines of "I don't like it, I wont even comment on it"  - that brings this place to a standstill.

I do think this place needs to become a little more "accessible". It's name is being tarnished and I think we need to become a little more responsible for what we post.
It's all well and good having a community but a community unwilling to help others is just pointless.

The voices in my head told me to vote zero tolerance, but I will admit to taking a perverse pleasure in seeing a script and author get decimated. It's like dead baby jokes; completely wrong, but amusing.

Wow where did this thread come from?

It seems everyone has had their say and there have been some knives in backs too.  I get the feeling this thread has an alternative motive. Rather than being about script bashing it's more about the people who script bash?

Personally I feel sometimes the bashing can go too far. I have been on the end of some harsh critique but I have to admit that it has always been with good advice too.
If a review offers advice to improve it at least gives the writer something positive and they can't see it as positive then they should take off the blinkers. When we write a script we surely know not everyone will like it and so must accept we are going to receive some negative feedback.

I don't however like the bandwagon that people like to jump on.  Scoob mentioned it  and he's right.  Too many people read a bad review and then feel the need to simply write 'This sucks arse' and so on. I don't think is helpful in the slightest.  Some people here are getting a bad press but I think they do offer some good advice too.

If a script does suck and the writer doesn't even appear on the boards then why not just leave the script alone and leave no feedback?

I think this thread might run and run.....

Quoted from alffy If a script does suck and the writer doesn't even appear on the boards then why not just leave the script alone and leave no feedback?

My money is on the writer has been scared off due to the harsh reviews his script has received.  This is the opposite of what this board is about.

Now that the votes are in (so to speak), will there be a policy change on the boards?


Phil

My opinion is if someone likes my story, Great! If they dont, well thats cool to. Art is very subjective.

I really dont get into grammar "correcting" since the definition of "right grammar" isnt something that even the most educated grammarian's can agree on now, or for the past two thousand years. Just try and spell things right! (something I need to work on.)

Also I found it funny how things are changing as far as the Structure of a Screenplay goes. Things that where thought of as serious violations just a few years ago are now becoming more common. Its weird.

My advise is JUST WRITE!

Quoted from alffy It seems everyone has had their say and there have been some knives in backs too.  I get the feeling this thread has an alternative motive. Rather than being about script bashing it's more about the people who script bash?

I`m gonna jump on your bandwagon and say you`re totally right. Everyone seems more concerned about bashing each other and clearing each other`s names, rather than the topic itself.

My own opinion is that newbies need guidance, alot of their scripts include format issues, grammar, CAPS, underlining and spelling mistakes let alone the actual story itself. They need pointed in the right direction and I don`t care if they don`t return feedback, I just avoid the ones who tell me I have to read their scripts and don`t participate at all.

If it`s an experienced writer and their script is total garbage, ill let them know, but an experienced writer shouldn`t have the issues a newbie has and so the review is more spent on the story.

Just avoid really nasty comments please, I know a lot of it is in jest, but some people don`t have strong backs or a sense of humor.  

Mark

Mark

Quoted from alffy I get the feeling this thread has an alternative motive.

If you are looking in my direction with that comment, I assure you that was not my intent, and I find it unfortunate that detour was taken.

In fairness, I can also see how you might think that -- but there are legions "guilty" of this at various times and we all know it.

Quoted from Phil Now that the votes are in (so to speak), will there be a policy change on the boards?

I kind of think that time may have arrived, and the tally is pretty clear -- provided that people really meant what they voted. I hope so.

The main thing I take away from the conversation is this:  Every new script from a new unknown author should be treated as a potential new member.  Please do not take a total dump on them.

Helio always springs to mind during these conversations.  Generally acknowledged as a fine storyteller, though his English is a bit wonky.  How would he be received on the boards today?

I think I will be taking these forward -- in an attempt to make the board more professional and just a little more welcoming in general:

*  For unknown authors, if you cannot say something instructive or encouraging, say nothing.  It will have to be case-by-case, but I (and the other mods) will be judging a little more critically going forward, and if the post comes up missing you'll probably know why.
*  For unknown authors, one totally negative review is enough.  Until the author shows up, do not pile on -- or at the very least, your post should bring something new to the table.
*  These rules do not apply to known members who post a turd; gloves remain off, as we assume they can take it and would want to know.
*  If it is an author who posts numerous scripts and never shows his face on the boards, again, one post alerting others to this fact is enough.

Always remember that Shorts with no activity sink off the boards pretty fast; ask yourself "Are my comments really important enough to bump this awful script to the very top of the heap -- or is it better if it just gets slowly flushed away?"

Any additional thoughts or some disagreement with this?

Quoted from bert Any additional thoughts or some disagreement with this?

Sounds reasonable. I'm not a member of Movie Poet, but people act as though it's so much more civilized there. Is that true? If so, why do you think that is?

I'd guess it's because most of the scripts are written by participating board members. You have to sign up to post a script or a review... I think. Here, alot of scripts just get dumped anonymously. Something to think about for Don, although, I'm sure he won't change his policies...

Everyone seems a bit more constructive when they know who they're talking to...

James

James, I have never posted on MP, except a few reviews. I hung out there for a few weeks reading, though. Boring. The arguments can be a drag here, but they also are a sign of life. That's what's best about SS. There is life here. It's also much more useful when it comes to feedback. I'm not knocking MP, just saying it's more interesting here.

Quoted from jwent6688 Sounds reasonable. I'm not a member of Movie Poet, but people act as though it's so much more civilized there. Is that true? If so, why do you think that is?

it is more civilized. Chris would never let any "trashing" of a script or person go on there. It is also a lot smaller than SS and revolves mostly around the monthly contests.

Long ago I would have said that it might be more unruly here because we have so many "kids" here, but we don't anymore. Which to me is sad. I love seeing young people grow up and mature and do amazing things like making their own films.

Quoted from Grandma Bear Long ago I would have said that it might be more unruly here because we have so many "kids" here, but we don't anymore. Which to me is sad. I love seeing young people grow up and mature and do amazing things like making their own films.

Do you think that, maybe, some of these kids were scared off?

If Little Tommy Newguy posts his first script, here, and the first reviews of it add up to, "I've rather eat a steaming turd than read this script again.  Stop wasting our time!" how long do you think Tommy will stay here?


Phil

Quoted from dogglebe Do you think that, maybe, some of these kids were scared off?

Yes, Phil.  I personally know for a fact that you have scared off numerous people, kids and adults alike over the years.

It'll be good to see your softer, more sensitive side going forward.

Quoted from dogglebe My money is on the writer has been scared off due to the harsh reviews his script has received.  This is the opposite of what this board is about.

I only meant that maybe we should not bother bashing/reviewing scripts by writers that submit lots of scripts but show up on the boards.

Quoted from bert If you are looking in my direction with that comment, I assure you that was not my intent, and I find it unfortunate that detour was taken.

I wasn't looking in any direction. I hope I haven't caused offence?

I do wish everyone would try to get on as Simplyscripts is a great site and has helped many a struggling writer.

Quoted from bert *  These rules do not apply to known members who post a turd; gloves remain off, as we assume they can take it and would want to know.

Who is considered a known member? Is it by the amount of posts by that person?

Just wondered as I am new and don't want people taking off the gloves and bashing me...though I probably need it

How about we just don't bash the scripts?  I'm not talking negative reviews; I'm talking about comments that insult the writer.


Phil

Quoted from alffy I hope I haven't caused offence?

Nope, not at all.

Quoted from coop Who is considered a known member?

By definition, someone you know.  Someone earlier likened SS to a pub -- and surely the way you speak (or post) to a stranger should be different, and in theory, more respectful.

Quoted from kev I have never posted on MP, except a few reviews. Boring. The arguments can be a drag here, but they also are a sign of life. That's what's best about SS. There is life here.

I also want to be sensitive to this.  While it may be a bit harsh to write off MP as "boring", it is a different atmosphere, for sure.

You would have to be blind to maintain that occasional bashing is not amusing, but lets reserve that treatment for our "friends".  That is kind of what I'm saying.  

One thing I have notice here: whenever we go too long without an OWC, these arguments blow up. It's almost like the tension is relieved by the OWC. I'm not pining for one, I know they are a ton of work. It's just an observation. Again, most of this is all the sign of a healthy website. It's like a family: what would Thanksgiving be without an argument or two!

My idea to solve the problem would be quite simple. The first person to review a script from what appears to be a newbie/unknown simply writes something along the lines of...

'I didn't like this, if you want to know why respond and I shall tell you.'

Then we wait for the reply. Nobody else needs to add anything unless the author gets involved. We all save time not reading a script where our reviews will fall on deaf ears, you don't waste your own time writing a review and you don't waste the time of those of us who will inevitably read your reviews. Everybody wins, don't they?

The only way this could work is if everyone chose to stick to it though. To me it doesn't seem like it would be a hard rule to follow, but what do I know?!

Anyway, just my thoughts. I'm off to smoke a doob.

Peace out and that.

Arty.

Quoted from ArtyDoubleYou Anyway, just my thoughts. I'm off to smoke a doob.

I'll be right over.  

But, seriously, in regards to your post, no one knows if reviews fall on deaf ears or not.  It's very possible, and even likely that writers who don't respond to feedback, do actually read it.  Maybe they're too shy, too scared of Phil, or just not comfortable getting into a discussion on a subject they're relatively clueless on.

I've seen Simon actually taking your idea on recently, by stating that he has comments if the writer wants to engage.  I see nothing wrong with this, but I also don't see it doing much.  When a script receives either positive or negative feedback, it draws interest.  It's simply human nature to be drawn to either positive stuff, or negative stuff.  No way around it.

I for one will have no problem cutting back on the bashing, for amusement's sake.  I can and will offer critique and the writers can take it on board or decide it's not helpful to them.  Other SS'ers can do the same as they read my feedback.

But everyone needs to understand, it's a public forum, dealing with material that is heavily based on opinions and individual tastes.  There are obviously many technical issues on display as well, and it's here where hard facts and realities are what they are.

I agree with you that it does draw the interest. When I read the bashing posts I often open up the script just to see how bad it is, so I can see what not to do myself. It's a learning experience for me and I will often think (hope) 'at least my work is not that bad'.

I guess it wouldn't have to be just one reviewer posting and the rest waiting to see if the author responds. Others could also add the same sort of line, just cut out all the swearing and non technical points. Basically we try to encourage the newbies out from their shells to get involved. If they don't chip in, then they lose out. It can be an intimidating atmosphere around here at times, but most people, myself included, believe you need a thick skin for this industry. Criticism sucks, but if it's constructive then it's worth it, I'm sure everyone here will agree on that.

I like that you will cut back on the bashing because sometimes it's hard to tell whether it is a joke or if you are just a big meany. I'm sure if it was face to face it would be clear but to read it's hard to judge the tone some of the time.

Essentially I just want us all to get along. I know this probably isn't possible, but we all live in hope.

Arty.

ps Just rolled one for ya, if you're not here in ten minutes it's mine...

Listen... If the Irish and English learn to put aside 800 years of hatred, im talking pilaging,raping ,murder, stealing land and murder and thats just from the english...(did I say murder twice) and get along through SS(Im looking at you ARTY and COOP)

Then surely the rest of you can put your silly little bickering aside and join together hand to hand to become one against the mortal enemy..... The french!

Mark

Can we become one against the Germans instead? The French do good food at least. Plus ze Germans always beat us (the English) in the world cup. Stupid penalties.

I would also like to add, just for the record, I have never pillaged, raped, murdered, stole land or murdered. I speak for myself here, Steve now lives in Oz so who knows what he gets up to...

As far as I understand the Canadians are purportedly fair game, as they are less intelligent than normal Americans.

Just what I heard, that's all.

Quoted from Arty Plus ze Germans always beat us (the English) in the world cup. Stupid penalties.

That`s why I like them

I also figured there would be less French people on this site.

Mark

Quoted from leitskev One thing I have notice here: whenever we go too long without an OWC, these arguments blow up. It's almost like the tension is relieved by the OWC. I'm not pining for one, I know they are a ton of work. It's just an observation. Again, most of this is all the sign of a healthy website. It's like a family: what would Thanksgiving be without an argument or two!

You haven't been around long enough to see some of the doozy OWC arguments.  There's been some really heavy ones.  

Quoted from bert I think I will be taking these forward -- in an attempt to make the board more professional and just a little more welcoming in general: *  For unknown authors, if you cannot say something instructive or encouraging, say nothing.  It will have to be case-by-case, but I (and the other mods) will be judging a little more critically going forward, and if the post comes up missing you'll probably know why. *  For unknown authors, one totally negative review is enough.  Until the author shows up, do not pile on -- or at the very least, your post should bring something new to the table. *  These rules do not apply to known members who post a turd; gloves remain off, as we assume they can take it and would want to know. *  If it is an author who posts numerous scripts and never shows his face on the boards, again, one post alerting others to this fact is enough.

I'm more or less happy with the ruling but I'm still slightly uncomfortable with the idea of tailoring reviews to suit newer members in general as well as having rules enforcing such. I trust the mods' judgement but it remains to be seen how trashing will be differentiated from strictly negative reviews. As this poll plainly shows, the boards have never been good at reaching consensus and as someone suggested earlier, one man's review might be another's attack.

This coming from someone who doesn't think he trashes scripts.

Anyway, I totally welcome the latter three stipulations. I think they should at least help to smooth over some of the indignation over nonmember scripts, for one thing. And I suppose I welcome change in general. I stand by what I've said earlier in this thread but perhaps there's been a noticeable lack of civility around these parts for some time now.

For me...

If I see anything remotely resembling this... especially on a new members script...

Quoted from Someone Please, work on your grammar and sentence structure.  If you're still in 2nd Grade, ask your teacher for some help after school.  There's just no excuse for this, IMO.

it's getting deleted.

Quoted from Forgive As far as I understand the Canadians are purportedly fair game, as they are less intelligent than normal Americans. Just what I heard, that's all.

Hear, hear! Fucken Canadians...

James

Quoted from jwent6688 Hear, hear! Fucken Canadians... James

We're sorry...