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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Discussion of...     General Chat  ›  The importance of the writer Moderators: bert
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Grandma Bear
Posted: July 8th, 2012, 9:52pm Report to Moderator
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I just wrapped the shoot of Bert's Them That's Dead. What made me want to shoot this script was the story itself. I loved it! We've all heard that you have to start with a great script! I believe in that and I think TTD is a great script. Now, everyone from crew to actors loved the script! That's great. Makes it easier to get people to want to be involved....however, I did discover a very disturbing thing during shooting. I caught my actors complaining about editors and whatever altering their perfomramances and whatever. I took their scripts away and asked them what the name of the writer was for TTD....I was dismayed to find out that no one knew. As I writer, I found this to be very disturbing, but it explains why so few writers are household names to even avid movie goers. Do writers deserve better attention? I think so. What do you think?  


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ghost and_ghostie gal
Posted: July 8th, 2012, 10:23pm Report to Moderator
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Pia,

Congrats on the wrap up of TTD.  Yeah, I believe writers should get more attention, but unless you're a big name... it's no secret most writers, like in "Hollywood" get shit on all the time.

I'm talking at the bottom of the todem pole. I dunno, maybe things will change one day.

Ghost


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ABennettWriter
Posted: July 8th, 2012, 10:39pm Report to Moderator
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There's an attitude of "everyone can be a writer", which we all know isn't true. How many stores are there where a director, or worse producer, tries to rewrite the script?

Writers are important but it is a collaborative medium. I don't think any trade is more impudent than the other.. Without a writer, there's no script. Without a director, there's no movie. Without an editor, it's just hours of raw footage. Without actors, there's nothing at all.

We have to give credit to where's credit due.
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kev
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I agree in that writers are really underappreciated, especially by the average movie-goer. I remember even as a kid before getting into screenwriting, having this idea that the director was always the one who had written the script as well. For some reason I think that people don't really absorb the idea that the writer wrote the dialogue and the entire story, it's weird. Unless you're Aaron Sorkin, as a screenwriter your name is pretty obsolete to the average movie-goer, it's sad but I'm not sure what it would take to get the importance of the writer more blatant.


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ABennettWriter
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The problem, IMO, odd that films aren't billed as such. It's always "the directors film", even when the directo wrote the piece as well.

The only names that come to mind as writers and directors are Tarantino, Cameron and Ephron, if only slightly.
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: July 9th, 2012, 3:32am Report to Moderator
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When I shot the extended version of End of the Tour the actors were talking about you...so some actors take notice of who wrote the script. Just saying.


The big problem writers have is that it's always the story that gets blamed when people don't like a film.

Sometimes acting may be criticised, but in a major film it's hardly ever things like sound, cinematography, editing etc it's usually the story that they find: boring, senseless, shallow, inconsistent etc

Writers take the blame for that, essentially...as the script (even in its final form) is seen as their responsibility. That can be unfair, but it seems to be the way it is.

A case in point was my ex who used to often say after watching a film: "I liked it...apart from the story". It became a sort of running joke.

My love for film has dwindled recently because I've seen just too many films that do not reach a level of basic competence in the story telling department. Rudimentary things like consistent characters or plots making sense seem to be missing from too many films these days.

I don't know who is to blame...execs for picking bad scripts, or greenlighting projects before a script is written, editing choices etc. But the view of the public is that it's the scriptwriter.

From what I understand the big Producers are wary of writers and see them as tantamount to thieves..this is the impression David Mamet gives in his book Bambi vs Godzilla. They are seen as people who delay everything and who never deliver the goods anyway....they hire writer after writer and still everyone says the script was poor...to them these people are stealing a living.

The way around it would be to write scripts that only you can write and become known for having a certain inimitable skill or style.
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Grandma Bear
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Quoted from Scar Tissue Films
When I shot the extended version of End of the Tour the actors were talking about you...so some actors take notice of who wrote the script. Just saying.

Really? I'm blushing!

I was really surprised at this. Once, when I referred to the writer, one of them said "what, you didn't write this?". And that was with them sitting there with a copy of the script in their hands. The cover page with Robert Newcomer as writer clearly in view.

To me, the writer is the most important person because without us, there is no story for the director to shoot or the actors to act in. We need more respect dammit!!!!  


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Mr. Blonde
Posted: July 9th, 2012, 8:33am Report to Moderator
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Overall, writers deserve respect, but as I'm always reminded, movies are a visual medium. People care about what they can see. You can't see people's words (literally) on screen. You see actors, props, make-up, big pointless CGI explosions and all of it is the director's vision... unless it's a production by committee.

The thing I've figured out is there are three ways to be actually renowned as a screenwriter.

1. Write small dramas that rely on a good script over anything else.
2. Be better at characters than Joel and Ethan Coen, be better at story than Paul Thomas Anderson or be better at dialogue than David Mamet.
3. Do what they all have learned to do and direct your own screenplays.


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Dreamscale
Posted: July 9th, 2012, 12:07pm Report to Moderator
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Interesting question and subject, actually.

You know I see alot of movies...I mean alot of frickin' movies.  I always watch the opening credits closely to see if I recognize literally any of the team, especially the writer, director. and producers.

The writer receives (usually) the 2nd last credit, right before the director.  That should tell everyone something - the writer is extremely important and is receiving 2nd billing basically, the Director, 1st.

You can watch a movie and say whatever you like about the 'writing", but let's understand that what we're actually seeing on film has nothing to do with exactly what was written on paper.  Hopefully, the final product does the script justice, in terms of plot, story, characters, dialogue, and maybe most importantly, tone.  But the actual writing...formatting, grammar, punctuation, structure...definitely long removed and unimportant in the actual filming, obviously.

No one's ever gong to convince me that it's not a game of luck, who you know, or just being prepared and being in the right place at the right time, in terms of being a successful screenwriter.

Why do I continually say and believe this?

Because I see so many movies that are absolutely void o any writing talent, yet these A-Holes continue to get paid the big bucks writing more and more crappy movies.

My latest biggest hated writer is some punk named Eric Heisserer.  Who is he and where did he come from?  I don't know, but I do know that he';s written 3 of the worst scripts to 3 movies that should have all been awesome - A Nightmare on Elm Street (2010 remake), Final Destination 5 (2011), and The Thing (2011 remake/prequel/trash).

How did he get any of these gigs?  He sure didn't submit Specs on them.  No one that I'm aware of liked the movies or the scripts. And although one can easily argue that Elm Street was a financial success, it was a critical disaster.  Same can be said for FD5, but as a story, it was abysmal.  And The Thing?  Damn - disaster both financially and critically.  And now, he's in post production with Hours, based on Hurricane Katrina with a solid cast and probably a nice budget.

How does this happen?  Why does this happen?  Hollywood - Please stop employing Mr. Heisserer, as he sucks as a writer.
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Mr. Blonde
Posted: July 9th, 2012, 12:25pm Report to Moderator
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I remember his name popping up all the time when I was perusing IMDb in 2009/2010. I know "Nightmare" was Wesley Strick's first (he's not that much more talented) but before that, he didn't have a produced credit that I recall. Either he wrote something that nobody wanted but everyone liked or... as Kevin Smith said a while back, "Is the writer of this script somebody's fuckin' cousin?"

It's like Skip Woods. He sucks as a writer. That said, he wrote and directed a very small crime movie, his first script, which the people who have seen it are said to have enjoyed. I still can't comprehend how he went from a tiny crime movie to "Swordfish" and has managed to get progressively worse but I know why they're getting worse. He's cashing paychecks. He's established in action movies that are written for the budgets they receive and he takes his friendly portion and walks away to continue pumping out another unit every six months or so.

EDIT: I forgot. I enjoyed Final Destination 5. Maybe it was because I was stuck with the disgusting taste of THE Final Destination still in my mouth but on a pure entertainment level, I tolerated well enough.


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Dreamscale
Posted: July 9th, 2012, 12:42pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Mr. Blonde
EDIT: I forgot. I enjoyed Final Destination 5. Maybe it was because I was stuck with the disgusting taste of THE Final Destination still in my mouth but on a pure entertainment level, I tolerated well enough.


Yeah, part 4 was indeed horrific.  Part 3 also was not good, but for me, it was more than tolerable.  I loved the original and thought part 2 was amazing, if for no other reason, the amazing visuals on the opening and a number of other death sequences.

BTW - I actually enjoyed Swordfish!  HaHa...seriously.

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Mr. Blonde
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Quoted from Dreamscale
Yeah, part 4 was indeed horrific.  Part 3 also was not good, but for me, it was more than tolerable.  I loved the original and thought part 2 was amazing, if for no other reason, the amazing visuals on the opening and a number of other death sequences.

BTW - I actually enjoyed Swordfish!  HaHa...seriously.


I liked part 3 for a couple of the dialogue sequences and one character. The rest was pretty bad and I could go on and on about how the roller coaster crash would not have happened since Frankie's camcorder started the whole thing and he got off the ride. It's always irritating to see.

I prefer the original to 2 but the opening ten-twelve minutes were extremely good.

Don't worry. I enjoy Swordfish, too. I got bored one day and decided to memorize the opening sequence. Same thing with Snake Eyes. Bad movie written by a bad writer and directed by a bad director (maybe hack/thief is a more appropriate term) but I enjoy it and quote it way too often.


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Dreamscale
Posted: July 9th, 2012, 1:01pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Mr. Blonde
Same thing with Snake Eyes. Bad movie written by a bad writer and directed by a bad director (maybe hack/thief is a more appropriate term) but I enjoy it and quote it way too often.





I watched Snake Eyes again a couple weeks ago on Netflix.  Saw it at the theater back in 98, and remember liking it but thinking it was pretty stupid as well.  When I watched it again, I was shocked how stupid it was...but still enjoyed it for what it was.

It was written by DePalma and Koepp - are you saying you think these 2 are bad writers?  Lots of great credits among them...some downright classics, even.
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Mr. Blonde
Posted: July 9th, 2012, 1:20pm Report to Moderator
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I'm saying Koepp is a bad writer (DePalma got Story By) and DePalma is a hack who has no talent of his own, beyond copying Hitchcock a little too often.

Sure, they have classics. Oddly enough, they're at their best when they work together. That said, Koepp did Stir of Echoes which was pretty good and The Trigger Effect which I like despite it being miserably slow and poorly written. And, Koepp should NEVER work with Spielberg again. In my opinion, they're 0-4 when working together. Of course, we like to call those "paycheck movies". Especially The Lost World: Jurassic Park.

And, we've officially de-railed this thread. Sorry, everyone.


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Electric Dreamer
Posted: July 9th, 2012, 2:23pm Report to Moderator
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The writer has all the power until the script is sold.
Once it's sold, folks here tend to look at the writer as a hired hand.

If you want them to remember you... have a producer clause in your contract!

Regards,
E.D.


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Forgive
Posted: July 9th, 2012, 7:09pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Electric Dreamer
The writer has all the power until the script is sold.

... and then the movie starts to be made -- and that's one of the problems. Your job's then finished while the 'real fun' goes on - people who make movies want to be filming, acting, lighting etc. As the writer, you're long forgotten at this stage, and people see the production of the film as the 'meat' of the process.

Sure, writers deserve more, but writers have been around since the beginning of film, and if they were going to get a good deal, it would have happened by now.

There is only one way to write yourself to success - and by 'success' I mean multi-million (billion) pound success - and that is to diverge into either producing or directing. Spielberg, Lucas, and Cameron all diverged into directing - (they must have diverged as they wrote scripts first, then directed them, so are therefore primarily writers who undertook the easier task of directing).

So a successful screenwriter in order to become a household name (if that's want you want) has to use his/her success (in screenwriting) as leverage into other areas.

Or else you can just sink into poverty as the unrecognized genius that you are.

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Grandma Bear
Posted: July 9th, 2012, 7:19pm Report to Moderator
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Although I agree with most of you, my point was that not even the actors could name the writer. I wasn't thinking a writer necessarily had to be famous, just recognized. At least by the people who are involved with the film.

I'm planning to rent the Hippodrome theater for a mini showing of TTD at some point. Hopefully in October and I bet you all people involved will know Bert's name by then!!  


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Pale Yellow
Posted: July 9th, 2012, 7:32pm Report to Moderator
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Wow! I'll be there to see it! I can't wait Pia!

It does suck that they din't even know his name HOLDING the script in their hands. *sad*
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Grandma Bear
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You'll be welcome too, Dena! Even if it's just 10 minutes...we'll have an open bar!  
  Bert might come too!


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Forgive
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Um ... yeah - bit of a soap box moment there. I get what you mean, and I've stepped down down ... hope the film all goes well.  
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Dreamscale
Posted: July 9th, 2012, 8:18pm Report to Moderator
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Premiere at the Hippo?  Chance to meet Pia and Dena  for the first time//Bert, by chance?

I'm fucking there!!  Serious and for reals.
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Grandma Bear
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Me, Dena and Bert or the open bar????  


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Dreamscale
Posted: July 9th, 2012, 9:10pm Report to Moderator
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All fucking 3!!!!!!

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Grandma Bear
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Four?........


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Dreamscale
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Yes, menage squared.
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DarrenJamesSeeley
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Quoted from Dreamscale


You can watch a movie and say whatever you like about the 'writing", but let's understand that what we're actually seeing on film has nothing to do with exactly what was written on paper.  Hopefully, the final product does the script justice, in terms of plot, story, characters, dialogue, and maybe most importantly, tone.  But the actual writing...formatting, grammar, punctuation, structure...definitely long removed and unimportant in the actual filming, obviously.


Alrrrrright....where's the real Jeff, what have you done with him  


Quoted from Dreamscale

My latest biggest hated writer is some punk named Eric Heisserer.  Who is he and where did he come from?  I don't know, but I do know that he';s written 3 of the worst scripts to 3 movies that should have all been awesome - A Nightmare on Elm Street (2010 remake), Final Destination 5 (2011), and The Thing (2011 remake/prequel/trash).

How did he get any of these gigs?  He sure didn't submit Specs on them.  


Well...that's more like it. Anyway, I don't really know, but I'll take a stab in the dark. Perhaps at one point in time  Heisserer had a horror/suspense spec. A spec which made rounds, got optioned/bought but never made. On the strength of that work, he then at some point became punked out ...I mean... a writer for hire. He got assignments, and was PAID to write whatever bright producers/studio executives/direcor told him to. He did his job. And he gets the blame for those....whatever they were. But he did his job, and now moving on to more better things.

However, for all I know his draft of Elm Street was well written. The execution of it may be another matter. There were other writers involved, as previously mentioned (and Wesley Strick among them) and y'know what? I thought for the most part FD5 was clever and one scene was brilliant (the friend turns into a foe, decides to kill the others so he might escape death) but the bad acting couldn't save it. I also think the FD films have run thier course. Unless they pay someone to be the bitc... I mean the the new writer that gets paid.

The Thing prequel wasn't badly written at all. (It wasn't great either - and can't hold a candle to the 82 film)


"I know you want to work for Mo Fuzz. And Mo Fuzz wants you to. But first, I'm going to need to you do something for me... on spec." - Mo Fuzz, Tapeheads, 1988
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George Willson
Posted: July 10th, 2012, 7:57am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Grandma Bear
You'll be welcome too, Dena! Even if it's just 10 minutes...we'll have an open bar!  
  Bert might come too!


I very much doubt I'd be able to come, but I'll be sure to plaster myself all over every scene so you'll be sure to think of me. I'll be there in spirit and sound.


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Electric Dreamer
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Quoted from Grandma Bear
You'll be welcome too, Dena! Even if it's just 10 minutes...we'll have an open bar!  
  Bert might come too!


With the right alcohol choices... ten minutes is all you need at an open bar.
Sounds like a hoot... and right around my dad's birthday.
He's down in FTL. So that could be a double dip threat.

Regards,
E.D.


LATEST NEWS

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bert
Posted: July 10th, 2012, 2:17pm Report to Moderator
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What a charming thread I nearly missed during my somewhat-hiatus from the boards.

Part of my recent absence is related to a relocation back to my beloved south, and I would certainly do everything humanly possible to catch a big-screen premiere -- particularly given the possibilities of such a star-studded cast in attendance -- and an open bar.

I remember catching a performance of "Hair" at the Hippodrome back in the day.  A very nice venue as I recall.  Hopefully people will keep their clothes on this time around.

I have been peeking at your work elsewhere, Pia, and rest assured it looks even better than I had envisioned.  You are amazing.

And George, is there any chance that you count accordion-player among your many talents?  I have been thinking some accordion might serve the soundtrack well.  Maybe that is just me, though

As for the topic at hand, I am not the least bit surprised or upset.  Actors as a breed must be focused primarily on themselves and their own lines to do what they do.  No harm, no foul in my book.  But I do look forward to meeting them should the opportunity arise -- and anybody else who climbs out from under their rock to slurp down the abundant free Stella we are sure to find on-hand!

And when it's over, first round for the after-party is on me.


Hey, it's my tiny, little IMDb!
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Pale Yellow
Posted: July 10th, 2012, 2:29pm Report to Moderator
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OMG this is gonna so rule lol

Keep us posted on the date Pia!
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Dreamscale
Posted: July 10th, 2012, 2:35pm Report to Moderator
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I don't drink beer often, but when I do, I drink Stella.  Stay thirsty, my friends.
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George Willson
Posted: July 10th, 2012, 2:56pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from bert
And George, is there any chance that you count accordion-player among your many talents?  I have been thinking some accordion might serve the soundtrack well.  Maybe that is just me, though


Accordian? Hm. Well, I do play piano the majority of the time, and I know that's half of an accordian (the other half being chord buttons, I believe). It might not be too difficult to pick up. Not sure that would go along with the bagpipe/cow bell/kazoo motifs I had running around in my head though. Perhaps it could accompany the didgeridoo during the impromptu polka dance finale.



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Mr. Blonde
Posted: July 10th, 2012, 3:10pm Report to Moderator
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Man, George, if you're not playing either the triangle, harp or sitar, you just aren't pushing yourself enough to be a musical genius (that and it keeps the polka at bay).


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George Willson
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Quoted from Mr. Blonde
Man, George, if you're not playing either the triangle, harp or sitar, you just aren't pushing yourself enough to be a musical genius (that and it keeps the polka at bay).


There are some levels of genius too frightening to conquer.


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Grandma Bear
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Quoted from George Willson

I very much doubt I'd be able to come, but I'll be sure to plaster myself all over every scene so you'll be sure to think of me. I'll be there in spirit and sound.

I will introduce everyone involved. Promise!!  


Quoted from Electric Dreamer

Sounds like a hoot... and right around my dad's birthday.
He's down in FTL. So that could be a double dip threat.

Hey, maybe this will be our long talked about SS meet-up!  Where's Don!!!



Quoted from bert

Part of my recent absence is related to a relocation back to my beloved south, and I would certainly do everything humanly possible to catch a big-screen premiere -- particularly given the possibilities of such a star-studded cast in attendance -- and an open bar.

I remember catching a performance of "Hair" at the Hippodrome back in the day.  A very nice venue as I recall.  Hopefully people will keep their clothes on this time around.

I have been peeking at your work elsewhere, Pia, and rest assured it looks even better than I had envisioned.  You are amazing.


It would be awesome if you could come. Bring your wife and kid too!

I saw Hair there too. -85 I believe, or something like that.

You are too kind! There are still issues to be fixed and tweaked. There always is though, so I'm not too worried. Mostly the sound. The waves on the beach were VERY loud and that room at the fort had a very strong echo. Things like that.

Btw, even the Federal Park Rangers that were with us at the fort say they want to come!  

I'm hoping to have the film ready 2 weeks before Halloween. Don't know a specific date yet. One of my twins is getting married on the 27th in Virginia so it will be rather hectic times.



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Grandma Bear  -  July 10th, 2012, 5:43pm
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