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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Discussion of...     General Chat  ›  What a Journey We Face Moderators: bert
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Demento
Posted: December 11th, 2017, 5:21pm Report to Moderator
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Most of these people don't know what they are talking about but are very confident in pretending that they actually do. If you start talking to them about the nuances of your writing, story, film history or filmmaking in general, they won't know what to reply. They mostly parrot things they've heard, things they think makes them sound like they know what they are talking about.

About a year and a half ago, I decided to write a more commercial script. An anthology-like thriller with an 80s vibe. But I made sure to mention that it was similar to the movie Source Code, because I know that was one spec script that was very much loved and talked about in years past.

Anyway, I sent out a query emails to a lot of agencies and production companies. I got like 3-4 replies with requests for the script and submission forms. I submitted. Then I researched the people I was communicating with via facebook, linkedin etc. These were like 22-23 years old, fresh out of college, graduating in stuff like communication, journalism, marketing. They had photos of them getting drunk at parties on their social media accounts. Didn't seem like the most mature people in the world. These were assistants or interns given the job to read scripts and pass along cliffs or decide which scripts should be further reviewed. I knew a girl that worked for a big LA production company reading scripts. She was 22. At least she was fresh out of film school.

So, sometimes your fate gets decided on by people who know far less than you. That's life.

Another funny story is, I once submitted a script to a well-known producer. Who passed it along to his assistant, who contacted me to tell me that he was reviewing the script. Later on, he emailed me with -  It's a pass. When I asked if he could tell me why he didn't like it, he told me that the ending was too predictable and he didn't like how the story unfolded. But, what he explained was nothing like my script. What had happened was, he read some of the script and was so arrogant that he thought he knew how the story would unfold, so he told he didn't like that. When, in fact, the story actually went into a totally different direction then what he guessed. So, I got rejected on account of something I didn't even write but what someone thought I was going to write
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eldave1
Posted: December 12th, 2017, 5:57pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Demento
Most of these people don't know what they are talking about but are very confident in pretending that they actually do. If you start talking to them about the nuances of your writing, story, film history or filmmaking in general, they won't know what to reply. They mostly parrot things they've heard, things they think makes them sound like they know what they are talking about.

About a year and a half ago, I decided to write a more commercial script. An anthology-like thriller with an 80s vibe. But I made sure to mention that it was similar to the movie Source Code, because I know that was one spec script that was very much loved and talked about in years past.

Anyway, I sent out a query emails to a lot of agencies and production companies. I got like 3-4 replies with requests for the script and submission forms. I submitted. Then I researched the people I was communicating with via facebook, linkedin etc. These were like 22-23 years old, fresh out of college, graduating in stuff like communication, journalism, marketing. They had photos of them getting drunk at parties on their social media accounts. Didn't seem like the most mature people in the world. These were assistants or interns given the job to read scripts and pass along cliffs or decide which scripts should be further reviewed. I knew a girl that worked for a big LA production company reading scripts. She was 22. At least she was fresh out of film school.

So, sometimes your fate gets decided on by people who know far less than you. That's life.

Another funny story is, I once submitted a script to a well-known producer. Who passed it along to his assistant, who contacted me to tell me that he was reviewing the script. Later on, he emailed me with -  It's a pass. When I asked if he could tell me why he didn't like it, he told me that the ending was too predictable and he didn't like how the story unfolded. But, what he explained was nothing like my script. What had happened was, he read some of the script and was so arrogant that he thought he knew how the story would unfold, so he told he didn't like that. When, in fact, the story actually went into a totally different direction then what he guessed. So, I got rejected on account of something I didn't even write but what someone thought I was going to write


Great story - emblematic of the problem. The quality and experience of the Gatekeepers is certainly an issue.


My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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eldave1
Posted: December 12th, 2017, 6:02pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from DustinBowcot
All of those reasons are not reasons to pass on a script. All of those reasons are easy fixes that can be rectified with a brief rewrite. How does this agent know what the director and producer will want from the script? It's his job to offer it to them, it's then their job to tell the writer how they believe it should be written.

And I'm sure Dave would be willing to make those changes was he being paid to do so... or maybe even if he was likely to be paid to do so... Not that I'm suggesting this is about money.

Wtf is an agent doing giving advice on a script they aren't going to invest any time in themselves?

I've never known an agent to pass on a script. They tend to pass on writers. Or rather, the present incarnation of a writer.

Seems this agent has taken on the job of a reader and passed on the first 10.


Couldn't agree more. What I expected to hear is that (a) we specialize more in genre XX based on our connections, or (b) we only take clients on who have done XYZ. Something like that. Oh well, moving on.


My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: December 13th, 2017, 7:02am Report to Moderator
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Dave, this post is coming from a position of love and respect, and is for everyone on the thread, including myself. This is a really interesting thread, and I could honestly write for hours about the topics it deals with. I'm just posting it because I see so many people, in so many fields, making the same mistakes.

Writing is a tough gig.

You have to have the confidence to stand up for your script, and also know when to step aside and listen to advice. And it's difficult, if not impossible, to know when to stand your ground and when to concede.

I've seen a large number of people in the creative industries essentially waste their entire careers because they refuse to do what the professionals tell them to and refuse to conform to obvious professional/commercial needs. A very good friend of mine made money from a song he made; An upbeat, catchy hip hop beat with a simple, catchy tune, and minimal lyrics. It got used on multiple adverts, TV shows, and computer games. It brought him in about £350,000 and residuals are still trickling in.

He's blown it all now, and is depressed because no-one is buying his later stuff that he considers musically superior. But it's not, it's just more technical. It's too serious, too monotonous to be commercial like his hit record was, but if you tell him that he absolutely refuses to listen. He's an artist, and as he goes deeper into his art, he's getting more and more serious, and less and less commercial and more and more depressed because he's going in the opposite direction to what's needed....IF his goal is to sell something.

And that is what happens with most of the few people with the talent to succeed. They make deeply un-commercial stuff, then wonder why they can't make money. And nothing, nothing will shift them from their stance.

The long and short of screenwriting/filmmaking is this: 95% of people are outright not good enough. They don't have the talent, and they don't even realise they don't have the talent so they can't fix it.

Amongst the other 5% (the people on this thread) 99.9% of people don't write the things the industry makes, or don't network, market themselves or their products enough, or waste time on spurious things with spurious people. It's possible to spend an entire life time in the pseudo industry that surrounds filmmaking, music etc and not actually in the Industry.

The tiny fraction of people with the talent, who write the right things for the audience demographic and network professionally will make it to some level. In my opinion.


It's a writer's responsibility to conform to professional standards, not the Industry's responsibility to conform to amateur writer's standards.

Are they stupid for not loving our stuff, or are we stupid for not sending them the type of film they make?


It's worth bearing in mind that this feedback that has come from the Agent's readers is real, genuine feedback.

It's industry feedback. Everything else up to the point where people are considering giving you millions to make a film, or whether they are judging whether they can make money on it, isn't real. Not the websites, not the paid consultants, not festival feedback. Only the money.


The Readers are doing you a favour. They're telling you that, from their professional perspective, the script is suffering from:

1. Inconsistent characterisation.
2. A lack of conflict.
3. Non-standard structure.


They're telling you specifically how to improve, or at least adapt, if you want to sell a script to the Industry...or at least to them. It's an insight into the real world.

By deciding that they're just stupid,  that you're right and they're wrong, all you are doing is taking yourself out of the game.

This is the world of Star Wars, Marvel Films, the Golden Age of TV, video games , Virtual reality, Youtube...a billion things competing for your time. Whatever you're writing has to stand out from all of that and demand people's attention.

If it's not absolutely leaping off the page...what are you doing sending it to anyone in the Industry? That's the reality.

You, yourself realise this in your opening salvo:

They are looking for a Seth Rogan style vehicle.


The Hollywood version of this script would be called the Sexorcist...a name that stands out from the crowd.

It would largely mirror the Synder structure. It would be about George (Seth Rogan) who is a Sexorcist and whose profession would be a cover for his own broken heart and inability to find a soul mate. It would naturally progress through more and more outlandish scenarios and obstacles until he manages to convince one of his clients who he has fallen in love with, and isn't initially interested in him, to be with him. Or something along those lines.

It would be a relatively simple story, and all the art would be in finding original situations and making them funny.

The outlandish moments would become the trailer.

The marketing department would know exactly how to market it, and whom to market it to.

That is how the Industry largely works.

That's how easy it is...but NO-ONE DOES IT. This is why the Agent asked for a Save the Cat beat sheet..because invariably, invariably the scripts amateurs send out are not structured properly for professional needs.

You already know what they are looking for, but you don't want to write it. They make donuts and you want to sell them shoes.

Selling a script through an Agent to one of the 6 major studios is very rare, and the scripts usually have very strong genre, are standard structure and have high concept premises which stand out from the crowd with big, obvious conflicts.

They don't really make lo-fi stuff, unless they're chasing Oscars with a star cast and it's a very timely topic.

Those are the two things to sell: Big genre flicks, or Oscar vehicles. There's little point in wasting your time trying to get their attention if you're not writing these things.

That being said:

There are different avenues into the film Industry.

You have to know what your goal is, what kind of writer you are and then you have to tailor your approach depending.

There are Directors, and companies that make more lo-fi stuff, and you have to creatively target those that do, and probably get to know them personally. Someone like Alexander Payne is probably not a bad fit for someone like this story, though I think he'd try and introduce a bit more dark humour.

Or you have to start further down the list and find smaller independents with similar sensibilities, make the film to an exceptional level, create a buzz and sell it. If it is commercially successful, then you're on your way to becoming a more proven brand and investors are more likely to invest.

Peace and love.

(On a side note I can continue with specific feedback on your script if you're interested, either here or no its own thread. My sensibilities are more in line with the pro readers, so it might be pointless, but it's up to you).

Rick
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Stumpzian
Posted: December 13th, 2017, 8:04am Report to Moderator
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Rick -- Excellent post.



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Heretic
Posted: December 13th, 2017, 8:43am Report to Moderator
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I agree with Stumpzian, Rick -- vital words. (I also wanted to second your point, up above, that readers are better at sensing problems with beats/structure than they are at describing exactly what is causing that problem. A very important distinction that we need to learn to make to get the most out of feedback.)

I thought this would be a great idea for a 7WC, actually -- the Hollywood Sellout Challenge. The only parameter would be to write the most sellable, crowd-pleasing, big-budget genre flick you could. Really, we should all have one sitting around.
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MarkRenshaw
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This is why I write as a hobby, if it was my full time job I'd go nuts!

The only part of this I enjoy is the writing. Producing and promoting, trying to take it to the next level and one day maybe be a money earner for me, that part I dislike immensely.

I can see Dave's frustration. The industry is always critizised for not being original enough so you would think they would welcome something different. But I also agree with Rick's points.  They know original stuff from unknown writers rarely sell. They only have so many slots to fill and it's their job if they don't produce the goods, so they go for safe bets all the way. That means familiar stories which conform to well established structures.



For more of my scripts, stories, produced movies and the ocassional blog, check out my new website. CLICK
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eldave1
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Quoted from Scar Tissue Films
Dave, this post is coming from a position of love and respect, and is for everyone on the thread, including myself. This is a really interesting thread, and I could honestly write for hours about the topics it deals with. I'm just posting it because I see so many people, in so many fields, making the same mistakes.


Rick - a thought provoking post for sure on a topic that impacts many writers. Thanks for weighing in as always. Some of what you say I agree with. Some not.


Quoted Text
Writing is a tough gig.


Yep - And getting tougher by the day I suspect.


Quoted Text
You have to have the confidence to stand up for your script, and also know when to step aside and listen to advice. And it's difficult, if not impossible, to know when to stand your ground and when to concede.


Concur. Add to that the complexity of market based advice versus artistic based advice and it makes the filter process for a writer even more difficult and complex.  Where we disagree (I think) is that you do not concur with “my confidence” in defending my script as is. You believe that I should step aside and that I should react to the Agent’s feedback. I don’t. Long winded way of saying that one man’s confidence is another man’s failure to react to criticism.


Quoted Text
I've seen a large number of people in the creative industries essentially waste their entire careers because they refuse to do what the professionals tell them to and refuse to conform to obvious professional/commercial needs.


True. However, count me in as one who is going to refuse to conform to commercial needs (more on that later).


Quoted Text
The long and short of screenwriting/filmmaking is this: 95% of people are outright not good enough. They don't have the talent, and they don't even realise they don't have the talent so they can't fix it.


Not sure about the numbers, but your premise is solid.


Quoted Text
The tiny fraction of people with the talent, who write the right things for the audience demographic and network professionally will make it to some level. In my opinion.


I don't agree here. Yes, I believe that talented people do make it. I am a big fan of Sorkin, Tarintino, the Coen brothers and others and obviously they have talent. But I have read too many scripts that I love that did not make it and seen way too many movies that I've hated that did make it to believe that talent is the deciding factor. So, at least in my opinion, both people with talent and without talent will make it and the level of talent, at least in my experience, is not the deciding factor that it should be.


Quoted Text
It's a writer's responsibility to conform to professional standards, not the Industry's responsibility to conform to amateur writer's standards.

Are they stupid for not loving our stuff, or are we stupid for not sending them the type of film they make?


It is a commercial vs. artistic paradigm - more on this later.  I may be in the stupid camp and willingly so.


Quoted Text
It's worth bearing in mind that this feedback that has come from the Agent's readers is real, genuine feedback.


No doubt it is genuine. The issue for me is (a) is it valid and (b) does it enhance the story. No doubt that it is geared toward commercialization.


Quoted Text
It's industry feedback. Everything else up to the point where people are considering giving you millions to make a film, or whether they are judging whether they can make money on it, isn't real. Not the websites, not the paid consultants, not festival feedback. Only the money.
The Readers are doing you a favour. They're telling you that, from their professional perspective, the script is suffering from:
1. Inconsistent characterisation.
2. A lack of conflict.
3. Non-standard structure.
They're telling you specifically how to improve, or at least adapt, if you want to sell a script to the Industry...or at least to them. It's an insight into the real world.
By deciding that they're just stupid,  that you're right and they're wrong, all you are doing is taking yourself out of the game.


That’s my “confidence” showing. While I believe that they are all genuine comments in terms of this agent, I do not believe they are valid criticisms.


Quoted Text
This is the world of Star Wars, Marvel Films, the Golden Age of TV, video games , Virtual reality, Youtube...a billion things competing for your time. Whatever you're writing has to stand out from all of that and demand people's attention.
If it's not absolutely leaping off the page...what are you doing sending it to anyone in the Industry? That's the reality.
You, yourself realise this in your opening salvo:
They are looking for a Seth Rogan style vehicle.


I am not writing that story and have no desire to.


Quoted Text
The Hollywood version of this script would be called the Sexorcist...a name that stands out from the crowd.

It would largely mirror the Synder structure. It would be about George (Seth Rogan) who is a Sexorcist and whose profession would be a cover for his own broken heart and inability to find a soul mate. It would naturally progress through more and more outlandish scenarios and obstacles until he manages to convince one of his clients who he has fallen in love with, and isn't initially interested in him, to be with him. Or something along those lines.

It would be a relatively simple story, and all the art would be in finding original situations and making them funny.  

The outlandish moments would become the trailer.

Not the story I am going to write so I guess I’m screwed in terms of having it made.  


Quoted Text
That's how easy it is...but NO-ONE DOES IT. This is why the Agent asked for a Save the Cat beat sheet..because invariably, invariably the scripts amateurs send out are not structured properly for professional needs.



Quoted Text
You’ll find as many folks who hate the formulaic structure of Save The Cat as those who rely on it and your paradigm is a false one.  i.e., The absence of a Save The Cat structure does not mean the absence of structure. It does for this agent. I believe the agent is wrong. And is Dustin elaborated earlier, it's not as though I am getting this feedback from Robert McKee - it is more than likely from a 23 year old intern who is guarding the gates. The notes have everything to do with what it takes to move the script from pile one to smaller pile two and little to do wit the quality of the script.



Quoted Text
You already know what they are looking for, but you don't want to write it. They make donuts and you want to sell them shoes.

No, I know what these two want.  It’s not like I have not received other feedback on this thing which is 180 degrees from the critique from these two. As an example, one wants a sex scene. Another doesn’t want them to have sex at all as they feel it ruins the tension. One thinks Emily is too strong. One thinks she is too weak. Etc. etc.

Now– my general take.

1.     I probably should not whine about agent reactions. Not going to do so anymore.

2.     I am settled with not selling a screenplay. This process (thread) has got me back to the beginning – the why I started this. I want to write stories that I enjoy and whether or not they sell is irrelevant. I am not going to pursue a career as a screenwriter. I am going to enjoy my hobby of screenwriting. If you are 100% correct on the things I need to do to sell a feature, then I am not going to sell a feature because I do not want to do those things. That is the point where joy morphs into tedious work and I have already spent 35 years at tedious work. So, I’m going to default to joy.

3.     I continue to believe that the industry is filtered in a way that prevents cream from rising to the top and I am not talking about my work. There is far too much crap made for me to believe that the gatekeepers have a clue on what is artistically sound. They probably have a dead on ability to pin point what is commercially sound and if I am not going to succumb to that then I have to a be a bog boy and take the medicine. That is – I’m going to write. I’m not going to sell. That is a luxury I have as a retired old man. I do not recommend that approach to people who are trying to make a living selling scripts for many of the reasons you mentioned.


Quoted Text
(On a side note I can continue with specific feedback on your script if you're interested, either here or no its own thread. My sensibilities are more in line with the pro readers, so it might be pointless, but it's up to you).


My preference would be that you post those on the thread for the script as I don’t want this thread to be focused on my script as much as the general topic and would like to hear stories and lessons learned from others on theirs. I value your feedback (I don’t agree with what you have said so far regarding the script) but am always appreciative of comments. So even if you are in alignment with the agent’s criticisms that I have cited here – please, still post on the script thread. I know you thoughts are well intended and genuine and who knows, after a while I may be swayed.

Peace – out.



My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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eldave1
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Quoted from MarkRenshaw
This is why I write as a hobby, if it was my full time job I'd go nuts!

The only part of this I enjoy is the writing. Producing and promoting, trying to take it to the next level and one day maybe be a money earner for me, that part I dislike immensely.

I can see Dave's frustration. The industry is always critizised for not being original enough so you would think they would welcome something different. But I also agree with Rick's points.  They know original stuff from unknown writers rarely sell. They only have so many slots to fill and it's their job if they don't produce the goods, so they go for safe bets all the way. That means familiar stories which conform to well established structures.



We seem to be kindred spirits here. Thanks for weighing in.


My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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Bogey
Posted: December 13th, 2017, 5:23pm Report to Moderator
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Here's why I think Dave's take is justified:
The final two rounds of the Page Awards are judged by industry producers, agents, and managers, not Christmas help. Those folks don't just look at the contest results, they judge and affect those results. If a script is a finalist, it's exceptional. So I wouldn't assume that someone who requested the script from a list of finalists gave it the same careful read and analysis that one of the contest judges did in the later rounds, and I wouldn't assume that their feedback is spot on.
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Warren
Posted: December 13th, 2017, 5:25pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Scar Tissue Films


That's how easy it is...but NO-ONE DOES IT. This is why the Agent asked for a Save the Cat beat sheet..because invariably, invariably the scripts amateurs send out are not structured properly for professional needs.



Interested to know what big name features you have to your name considering it is that easy.

While your post is very well written and feels like it comes from a place of having an in-depth knowledge on how the industry works from personal experiences or stories from friends. How have you been able to put these ideas into place to further your writing career in the commercial market?

The percentages you mention seem like they were plucked out of thin air. 90% of stats are made up 80% of the time kind of thing. So I'm not sure how they are relevant at all.

Great answers, Dave. Just because one reader disliked it does not mean that it needs to change. I wholeheartedly agree with sticking to your guns, but like you I’m just a hobbyist and would never sacrifice my story for the sake of fitting into a box.




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DustinBowcot
Posted: December 13th, 2017, 5:57pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Bogey
Here's why I think Dave's take is justified:
The final two rounds of the Page Awards are judged by industry producers, agents, and managers, not Christmas help. Those folks don't just look at the contest results, they judge and affect those results. If a script is a finalist, it's exceptional. So I wouldn't assume that someone who requested the script from a list of finalists gave it the same careful read and analysis that one of the contest judges did in the later rounds, and I wouldn't assume that their feedback is spot on.


I was going to make this same point earlier.

Obviously this is a great script and I feel it's good enough for a producer to say yay or nay to making it. But they shouldn't refuse due to tiny little details that can be easily changed, they should refuse because they're not looking to make this type of film. To suggest that it's down to inconsequentialities is silly.

Drawing on my own experience again, the script originally optioned is a completely different story to the one that will eventually be produced. This is because lots of people come in with their opinions and we've got to try and please them all.

An opinion from somebody with no invested interest in the script is worthless. Completely worthless.
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