I had two Agenst request a copy of "The Beginning of The End and The End." The first one wanted a copy of my Save The Cat Beat Sheet before viewing. I don't friggin have one so that was a dead end (thankfully). The second one wanted a copy of the script.  Shortly after sending it I receive this response.
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I read the first 20 pages, David. (Always looking for that GREAT one).

A smart counselor would not awaken her  6 year old niece even is she was scared of a CLATTER. (Don't think any baby sitter would)

I was also waiting for the "conflict"

In this over-crowded market you've gotta hit us with a thump in the first 5 pages. and OH,  she goes to bed with the dude - Aren't we at least privy to a good scene of (perhaps) reluctant - or at least a creative sexual episode.? (Which will allow character exposure?)

PASS FOR US.
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I kindly replied thanks for taking a look. But in my mind I'm like what the fuck??? First a beat sheet request and then these notes.

- The fact that she awoke the kid was supposed to be a comedic moment. An adult looking to a six year old for safety. How did he not get that? Of course it is not rational behavior. That was the fucking point of the scene.

- The fact that she slept with the "dude" despite her inclinations otherwise was "the conflict."

- Really - I need to write a sex scene - like that has anything to do with her character???

And then I had a beer and thought what the fuck am I doing??? I'm 61 years old sending a scripts to folks probably in their 20s looking for the next Seth Rogan vehicle. Makes one want to wad everything up, set in a trash bin and light it on fire and just enjoy retirement.

Sorry for the venting. Just needed a place to let it go.

Dave, people will say all kinds of crap about a script cause you haven't written it the way they would have written it.
But then they don't write/can't write peanuts themselves and they don't have any ideas of their own to begin with either. It's easy to pick at someone else's opus.

It's the nature of the game unfortunately that you'll scratch your head at outlandish and cockeyed feedback.

This is feedback from Agents?

My short: Scooter - A person contacted me because they loved it! But, could they change the female coming of age character to a male, not have an actual scooter in the script, and could the ages and amount of characters be changed. Huh?   Yeah, um I  could write that and I'm flexible with changes but what part of the script did you actually love?

Quoted from LC Dave, people will say all kinds of crap about a script cause you haven't written it the way they would have written it. But then they don't write/can't write peanuts themselves and they don't have any ideas of their own to begin with either. It's easy to pick at someone else's opus. It's the nature of the game unfortunately that you'll scratch your head at outlandish and cockeyed feedback. This is feedback from Agents? My short: Scooter - A person contacted me because they loved it! But, could they change the female coming of age character to a male, not have an actual scooter in the script, and could the ages and amount of characters be changed. Huh?   Yeah, um I  could write that and I'm flexible with changes but what part of the script did you actually love?

That's precious.

I had one producer a while back ask if I could out a dog in the story. I asked why? - His response - "well, people like dogs."  Guess they don't like cats.

Thanks for the shout out - have had another beer and now remember that I started this hobby to have fun. Going to keep that in mind.

That moment when you realise the person you're speaking to is an utter idiot...

Worse, that moment when you realise you're talking to an utter idiot and they're the type of people you need to go through to make it.

This dawned on me some time ago, which is why I'm concentrating more on novel writing as soon as I'm finished with the rewrites of this script. Seems producers don't want to make my stories... even when they do, what they really want is for me to write theirs. So, I've written enough feature specs now. Although I do have one more I want to write, a light romantic drama.

This script I'm rewriting is nothing like the original spec... despite that original spec being loved. The characters, plot, and story have changed. All that remains are the character names and only because it was easier than changing them. They will be changed upon final draft though too.

Wow, what a dumbass.

You are one hell of a writer, Dave. His loss, it just needs to land in the right hands.

It will happen!

Dave, have you ever considered trying to attach a director first?

It would be great to land an agent - however none of us are going to land with a big agency until we've had some success. And I had a boutique agent for about 5 years, and looking back, she probably did more harm than good.  She certainly didn't do anything that I couldn't, and didn't do for myself.

And keep in mind agents only get 10% - so they still expect you to do some hustling. 90% of the hustling, to be exact.

Thanks all for the feedback. Will try to consolidate.

From Dustin:

Quoted Text Worse, that moment when you realise you're talking to an utter idiot and they're the type of people you need to go through to make it.

Yep!!!!!! It's like being sick and going to the Doctor only to be greeted by a car mechanic. No - worse - a car mechanic intern.  No worse - someone who never has driven a car.  

Granted. my interactions with folks in the industry have been limited, but they have been universally disappointing. I think part of the problem is that I already had a career (unrelated to writing) and, in general, the superiors and decision makers that one dealt with were not universally dumber then the people who worked for them.

Ironically, the best folks I have dealt with are students and newbies interested in shorts. They are more energetic, more respectful of the material and more in love with the art.

From AJR

Quoted Text Dave, have you ever considered trying to attach a director first? It would be great to land an agent - however none of us are going to land with a big agency until we've had some success. And I had a boutique agent for about 5 years, and looking back, she probably did more harm than good.  She certainly didn't do anything that I couldn't, and didn't do for myself.

Not sure how I could attach a Director - i.e., how to get to them. I know they are on IMDB but the contact is typically through an Agency.

You may be absolutely correct on Agents in general. I am experimenting in the outreach area at this time. I have decided to put down the writing pen (keyboard) for a few months and instead focus on outreach and am kind of doing it in all directions - everything from query letters to submitting to Amateur Friday.   I am finding that this part of "the hobby" is zero fun and very unrewarding - but thought it was time to get my toes wet.

From Warren

Quoted Text Wow, what a dumbass. You are one hell of a writer, Dave. His loss, it just needs to land in the right hands. It will happen!

Thanks, mate. Appreciate that.

If the exact same script, word for word, were written by [fill in name of established writer with credits], those same agents would be fawning all over your script.

Quoted from Bogey If the exact same script, word for word, were written by [fill in name of established writer with credits], those same agents would be fawning all over your script.

Thanks, dude - appreciate it.

Dave, this is by far the most aggravating business you can imagine. All people think about when they they hear movie business is what they see, the stars whether it's the actors or directors. Truth is, that you only see and hear about the cream of the crop. The 1%. That 1% exist in every arena. Business, sports, arts whatever. Everyone wants to belong in that 1% group. I'm not saying none of us can get there, but it is highly unlikely. Most of us have to put up with playing in the indie arena, again, wether that is in the movie business, horse business, car racing or whatever.

Like you, I started out doing this as a hobby. I knew early on I would never make it big in this business. Still, like so many others, I got sucked into, or should I say seduced by the idea of having my scripts made into films. I've had a bunch of films made now, including five features. To be honest with you, I'm no happier or richer from it. If anything, I found it to be extremely frustrating rollercoaster ride. The last five years, I've spent all my time writing stuff that producers told me that they wanted. No more! I'm tired of it. I reminded myself that this is a hobby! I'm not trying to make a career out of it. I'm going back to writing what I like. Stuff that can be a little out there at times. I know you don't like my stuff.. However, there are people out there that do like that side of me. Maybe not a lot of them, but they honestly like that kind of stuff. IMO, I think my scripts are better when I write what makes me happy than when I try to please others. Low budget thrillers... From now on, I write whatever the hell I want. If a director likes it, fine. If not, that's fine too. Maybe you should do the same. Stick to your guns. Write what makes you happy. Eventually, someone will read it that likes exactly the same thing as you.

Quoted from Grandma Bear Dave, this is by far the most aggravating business you can imagine. All people think about when they they hear movie business is what they see, the stars whether it's the actors or directors. Truth is, that you only see and hear about the cream of the crop. The 1%. That 1% exist in every arena. Business, sports, arts whatever. Everyone wants to belong in that 1% group. I'm not saying none of us can get there, but it is highly unlikely. Most of us have to put up with playing in the indie arena, again, wether that is in the movie business, horse business, car racing or whatever. Like you, I started out doing this as a hobby. I knew early on I would never make it big in this business. Still, like so many others, I got sucked into, or should I say seduced by the idea of having my scripts made into films. I've had a bunch of films made now, including five features. To be honest with you, I'm no happier or richer from it. If anything, I found it to be extremely frustrating rollercoaster ride. The last five years, I've spent all my time writing stuff that producers told me that they wanted. No more! I'm tired of it. I reminded myself that this is a hobby! I'm not trying to make a career out of it. I'm going back to writing what I like. Stuff that can be a little out there at times. I know you don't like my stuff.. However, there are people out there that do like that side of me. Maybe not a lot of them, but they honestly like that kind of stuff. IMO, I think my scripts are better when I write what makes me happy than when I try to please others. Low budget thrillers... From now on, I write whatever the hell I want. If a director likes it, fine. If not, that's fine too. Maybe you should do the same. Stick to your guns. Write what makes you happy. Eventually, someone will read it that likes exactly the same thing as you.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. And yes - I am going back to fun

Retarded feedback is always the most annoying.

I think we've probably all suffered it, at one time or another.

That being said: Everyone has their own opinions on films and stories. One person's masterpiece is the next person's snoozefest. If he felt her reluctance to sleep with the guy wasn't developed enough, he felt it wasn't developed enough...it's just the way it is.

The only thing you can do is specifically target filmmakers who make the kind of stuff you write, personally. One way or another. Or Produce/Direct them yourself....and try not to lose your home.

Truthfully, very few scripts are good enough to warrant the millions of pounds worth of investment, and the untold amount of time needed to make a film.

You know...even a lot of the professional novelists and screenwriters don't often write stories that are that good, to be honest. I'd say a lot of my favourite novels were one time deals..someone nailed one story, but never got to that level again...maybe not even close.

I personally think writing a great script is extremely difficult..harder than writing a great novel imo. I've been around professional TV and film in a small way for about 10 years. I've worked in a small way on some big blockbuster stuff, and worked with a lot of actors and directors who have made it to some level. The vast majority of directors looking for stuff don't even bother looking for scripts due to the rarity of finding one suitable/good enough and will more often look at short stories, novellas or novels for material.

I think you can see from the stuff Hollywood creates...more often than not it's based on pre-existing material..whether that's comics, novels, fairy tales, or old films.

I don't know if it's my place to say this, but in my decade plus of looking for features to produce, I've only come across one script that I thought, on the page, as written, was good enough to be made into a film (it was). There's a larger number of almost there's...but not quites. But even that number is quite small.

BTW, Dave...did they specifically ask for a Save the Cat beat sheet...or just a beat sheet?

You'll almost always get asked for a beat sheet.

Often, on the big gigs, you'll be asked to write several,so they can compare.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films BTW, Dave...did they specifically ask for a Save the Cat beat sheet...or just a beat sheet? You'll almost always get asked for a beat sheet. Often, on the big gigs, you'll be asked to write several,so they can compare.

They asked for my save the cat beat sheet

Fair enough. It's a pretty common one.

Did you reply to them explaining that it didn't follow that paradigm, and explain why...or did you just forget about it?

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films Fair enough. It's a pretty common one. Did you reply to them explaining that it didn't follow that paradigm, and explain why...or did you just forget about it?

The latter - they said pass

I think asking for a beat sheet is okay. There used to be an agent here on the site (remember Babz?) scouting for scripts and she always requested a beat sheet. Not sure if she wanted any specific one though.

But the second guy... I read the script and its obvious that a sex scene would not fit the tone and overall structure. Sounds loke a self-proclaimed agent who knows a fee people but nothing about scripts. Sex scene in there at the beginning. Pfft. The scene with her nephew is perfect!

Not much you can do with that, then, if you're not someone who likes to stick to "standard" structure. Each company has their own style, you just have to find one where your story fits.


By the way...I checked out the version of the script that's on here. I have to say: I agree with the guy about the waking up incident.

It's a minor problem of characterisation. The opening sets up a very insightful, analytical character who overthinks things. She even talks in VO, so we get to see her thought process.

She goes from that character, and someone who deals with other people's psychological issues as a job, to someone who is suddenly irrationally scared of a noise. It's a very sudden, jarring change that comes out of the blue. It's not like you've set up a reluctance to watch a horror, because she has some unusual fear. She's just doing her thing, then she's instantly scared without warning.

It needs a better set up, in my opinion. You've skipped a couple of necessary parts. The first is the decision to watch a horror movie. She's flicking the channels...there's a horror.

"I don't like horrors". "Get a grip, you're a grown woman, a psychologist for Christ's sake, all horror films are representations of subconscious fears". Cut to her hiding behind a pillow, turning it off, and running away. Then she's in bed, still scared listening to things.

She tries to psychoanalyse herself again..."It's just an irrational fear, there's no-one out there trying to kill me" and convince herself she's just hearing things or whatever, then she hears it again...races out of bed and wakes the child.

Just my opinion, but these little subtle beats make all the difference to the gag.

Readers and audiences are very adept at picking up on slight problems in beats, they're just not always that expert at describing exactly what it is that's causing the feeling.

Quoted from eldave1 Not sure how I could attach a Director - i.e., how to get to them. I know they are on IMDB but the contact is typically through an Agency. You may be absolutely correct on Agents in general. I am experimenting in the outreach area at this time. I have decided to put down the writing pen (keyboard) for a few months and instead focus on outreach and am kind of doing it in all directions - everything from query letters to submitting to Amateur Friday.   I am finding that this part of "the hobby" is zero fun and very unrewarding - but thought it was time to get my toes wet.

Depending on the agent or manager, some will get to back to you, and some might even be interested. Figure out approximately how much it would cost to shoot your film, and then scales your requests accordingly. If you're below $1MM you can cast a wider net, and those lesser known but talented directors will be more inclined to get back to you.

A good query letter is essential, and is a one-sheet or pitch sheet. Get everything unique about your project onto one page.

And then, yes, be prepared for a barrage of no's and an even bigger deafening silence. You've now entered the marketing side of the business, and sales is a numbers game. Could take 3 months or 10 years, no one can say. But the ones that quit are the ones who don't get their project made.  

AJR

Honestly, I also agree with him about the sex scene.

You've set up that she's absolutely off men, but she's decided to go through with this idea of a sexorcism (very good stuff, btw)...but then we don't see her doing it.

There's such a lot of comedic potential in that scene..and such a lot of originality. Him being the victim of some seemingly crazed woman intent on using him only for sexorcise, her not knowing what the hell she's doing and making it up as she goes along and all the crazy things she could say. Gold. It's an odd omission, for me.

Dare I say it? I also have a little sympathy with the conflict issue! You've set up a very deep and profound sense of a woman so broken hearted that she's sworn off all men completely..but then one random idea from a friend (which probably also goes against her character as a counsellor), and a conscious thought she's not had sex for a while leads her to completely undo all that and jump in bed with a guy.

Just the idea of her physical need for sex leads her to completely resolve the conflict you established just prior to the meeting with the guy in the bar.

What's happening here is something I see in a lot of pre-pro stuff, and it happens to my own work as well. A certain premise is established, then the story goes off somewhere else. The story, or theme don't flow organically from one thing to the next. The idea you established up front was the difficulty of finding two soul mates. The natural action stemming from that would be someone dating a LOT of people and being dissatisfied with them all.

Is she trying to meet a new soul mate, or actually forget the soul mate? They're two different stories, and you abandoned the one you initially set up...the former...for the latter.

This is what he's picking up on. You've introduced a primary conflict and need: To find the second soulmate..but then not had any scenes dealing with it in the first twenty.

Then you've introduced a new conflict..a physical need for sex, and resolved it immediately.

Sorry, brother, just trying to help. The difference between a pass, and the next big hit can be very small.

It's a good script, btw. I wouldn't bother typing this if I thought it wasn't. It's very witty.

Quoted from ajr Depending on the agent or manager, some will get to back to you, and some might even be interested. Figure out approximately how much it would cost to shoot your film, and then scales your requests accordingly. If you're below $1MM you can cast a wider net, and those lesser known but talented directors will be more inclined to get back to you. A good query letter is essential, and is a one-sheet or pitch sheet. Get everything unique about your project onto one page. And then, yes, be prepared for a barrage of no's and an even bigger deafening silence. You've now entered the marketing side of the business, and sales is a numbers game. Could take 3 months or 10 years, no one can say. But the ones that quit are the ones who don't get their project made.   AJR

Thanks AJR - I had already pretty much assembled all of the packaging - Query Letter, One Page Pitch, Synopsis, etc. Appreciate the feedback.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films Honestly, I also agree with him about the sex scene. You've set up that she's absolutely off men, but she's decided to go through with this idea of a sexorcism (very good stuff, btw)...but then we don't see her doing it. There's such a lot of comedic potential in that scene..and such a lot of originality. Him being the victim of some seemingly crazed woman intent on using him only for sexorcise, her not knowing what the hell she's doing and making it up as she goes along and all the crazy things she could say. Gold. It's an odd omission, for me. Dare I say it? I also have a little sympathy with the conflict issue! You've set up a very deep and profound sense of a woman so broken hearted that she's sworn off all men completely..but then one random idea from a friend (which probably also goes against her character as a counsellor), and a conscious thought she's not had sex for a while leads her to completely undo all that and jump in bed with a guy. Just the idea of her physical need for sex leads her to completely resolve the conflict you established just prior to the meeting with the guy in the bar. What's happening here is something I see in a lot of pre-pro stuff, and it happens to my own work as well. A certain premise is established, then the story goes off somewhere else. The story, or theme don't flow organically from one thing to the next. The idea you established up front was the difficulty of finding two soul mates. The natural action stemming from that would be someone dating a LOT of people and being dissatisfied with them all. Is she trying to meet a new soul mate, or actually forget the soul mate? They're two different stories, and you abandoned the one you initially set up...the former...for the latter. This is what he's picking up on. You've introduced a primary conflict and need: To find the second soulmate..but then not had any scenes dealing with it in the first twenty. Then you've introduced a new conflict..a physical need for sex, and resolved it immediately. Sorry, brother, just trying to help. The difference between a pass, and the next big hit can be very small.

No problem, mate. I do appreciate the feedback - just don't agree with it all other than I like the idea of Emily clutching a pillow as she's watching - that's good for the tone. Doesn't really serve any purpose here to go into the nits of the why I disagree. But as always - I do appreciate all eyes on my work and thank you for that.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films It's a good script, btw. I wouldn't bother typing this if I thought it wasn't. It's very witty.

Thanks, mate.

I skimmed to the end: I notice that you've successfully managed to meld the two stories I mentioned together. Well done.

My revised opinion is that you need to state in the opening VO about her trying to Forget a Soul mate...not just find one.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films I skimmed to the end: I notice that you've successfully managed to meld the two stories I mentioned together. Well done. My revised opinion is that you need to state in the opening VO about her trying to Forget a Soul mate...not just find one.

Thanks again for the feedback. In terms of this note, Emily is not trying to forget her soulmate. Her view is that people are really only entitled to one, and she found hers and was content with that. That is the classical what are hero think she needs isn't really what she needs. George is the one that makes her rethink that along with how energetic she felt being engaged with someone again. In the original script there was a little bit more voice over that dealt with that. It's pretty well covered in her opening conversation with her sister Lauren so I trimmed it back from the voice over in the opening. I'll take another look at it. Thanks again

All of those reasons are not reasons to pass on a script. All of those reasons are easy fixes that can be rectified with a brief rewrite. How does this agent know what the director and producer will want from the script? It's his job to offer it to them, it's then their job to tell the writer how they believe it should be written.

And I'm sure Dave would be willing to make those changes was he being paid to do so... or maybe even if he was likely to be paid to do so... Not that I'm suggesting this is about money.

Wtf is an agent doing giving advice on a script they aren't going to invest any time in themselves?

I've never known an agent to pass on a script. They tend to pass on writers. Or rather, the present incarnation of a writer.

Seems this agent has taken on the job of a reader and passed on the first 10.

Dave,

I have absolutely zero experience with any of this so feel free to disregard this advice if you wish. Take the beat sheet note as something that someone may ask for in the future and create one just in case. Disregard the other notes about changing your script if you do not believe they will make it better. Dust yourself off and keep writing. You're a great writer. Keep doing what you're doing. Keep writing and success will inevitably find its way to you.

All the best,
Marty

Most of these people don't know what they are talking about but are very confident in pretending that they actually do. If you start talking to them about the nuances of your writing, story, film history or filmmaking in general, they won't know what to reply. They mostly parrot things they've heard, things they think makes them sound like they know what they are talking about.

About a year and a half ago, I decided to write a more commercial script. An anthology-like thriller with an 80s vibe. But I made sure to mention that it was similar to the movie Source Code, because I know that was one spec script that was very much loved and talked about in years past.

Anyway, I sent out a query emails to a lot of agencies and production companies. I got like 3-4 replies with requests for the script and submission forms. I submitted. Then I researched the people I was communicating with via facebook, linkedin etc. These were like 22-23 years old, fresh out of college, graduating in stuff like communication, journalism, marketing. They had photos of them getting drunk at parties on their social media accounts. Didn't seem like the most mature people in the world. These were assistants or interns given the job to read scripts and pass along cliffs or decide which scripts should be further reviewed. I knew a girl that worked for a big LA production company reading scripts. She was 22. At least she was fresh out of film school.

So, sometimes your fate gets decided on by people who know far less than you. That's life.

Another funny story is, I once submitted a script to a well-known producer. Who passed it along to his assistant, who contacted me to tell me that he was reviewing the script. Later on, he emailed me with -  It's a pass. When I asked if he could tell me why he didn't like it, he told me that the ending was too predictable and he didn't like how the story unfolded. But, what he explained was nothing like my script. What had happened was, he read some of the script and was so arrogant that he thought he knew how the story would unfold, so he told he didn't like that. When, in fact, the story actually went into a totally different direction then what he guessed. So, I got rejected on account of something I didn't even write but what someone thought I was going to write

Quoted from Demento Most of these people don't know what they are talking about but are very confident in pretending that they actually do. If you start talking to them about the nuances of your writing, story, film history or filmmaking in general, they won't know what to reply. They mostly parrot things they've heard, things they think makes them sound like they know what they are talking about. About a year and a half ago, I decided to write a more commercial script. An anthology-like thriller with an 80s vibe. But I made sure to mention that it was similar to the movie Source Code, because I know that was one spec script that was very much loved and talked about in years past. Anyway, I sent out a query emails to a lot of agencies and production companies. I got like 3-4 replies with requests for the script and submission forms. I submitted. Then I researched the people I was communicating with via facebook, linkedin etc. These were like 22-23 years old, fresh out of college, graduating in stuff like communication, journalism, marketing. They had photos of them getting drunk at parties on their social media accounts. Didn't seem like the most mature people in the world. These were assistants or interns given the job to read scripts and pass along cliffs or decide which scripts should be further reviewed. I knew a girl that worked for a big LA production company reading scripts. She was 22. At least she was fresh out of film school. So, sometimes your fate gets decided on by people who know far less than you. That's life. Another funny story is, I once submitted a script to a well-known producer. Who passed it along to his assistant, who contacted me to tell me that he was reviewing the script. Later on, he emailed me with -  It's a pass. When I asked if he could tell me why he didn't like it, he told me that the ending was too predictable and he didn't like how the story unfolded. But, what he explained was nothing like my script. What had happened was, he read some of the script and was so arrogant that he thought he knew how the story would unfold, so he told he didn't like that. When, in fact, the story actually went into a totally different direction then what he guessed. So, I got rejected on account of something I didn't even write but what someone thought I was going to write

Great story - emblematic of the problem. The quality and experience of the Gatekeepers is certainly an issue.

Quoted from DustinBowcot All of those reasons are not reasons to pass on a script. All of those reasons are easy fixes that can be rectified with a brief rewrite. How does this agent know what the director and producer will want from the script? It's his job to offer it to them, it's then their job to tell the writer how they believe it should be written. And I'm sure Dave would be willing to make those changes was he being paid to do so... or maybe even if he was likely to be paid to do so... Not that I'm suggesting this is about money. Wtf is an agent doing giving advice on a script they aren't going to invest any time in themselves? I've never known an agent to pass on a script. They tend to pass on writers. Or rather, the present incarnation of a writer. Seems this agent has taken on the job of a reader and passed on the first 10.

Couldn't agree more. What I expected to hear is that (a) we specialize more in genre XX based on our connections, or (b) we only take clients on who have done XYZ. Something like that. Oh well, moving on.

Dave, this post is coming from a position of love and respect, and is for everyone on the thread, including myself. This is a really interesting thread, and I could honestly write for hours about the topics it deals with. I'm just posting it because I see so many people, in so many fields, making the same mistakes.

Writing is a tough gig.

You have to have the confidence to stand up for your script, and also know when to step aside and listen to advice. And it's difficult, if not impossible, to know when to stand your ground and when to concede.

I've seen a large number of people in the creative industries essentially waste their entire careers because they refuse to do what the professionals tell them to and refuse to conform to obvious professional/commercial needs. A very good friend of mine made money from a song he made; An upbeat, catchy hip hop beat with a simple, catchy tune, and minimal lyrics. It got used on multiple adverts, TV shows, and computer games. It brought him in about £350,000 and residuals are still trickling in.

He's blown it all now, and is depressed because no-one is buying his later stuff that he considers musically superior. But it's not, it's just more technical. It's too serious, too monotonous to be commercial like his hit record was, but if you tell him that he absolutely refuses to listen. He's an artist, and as he goes deeper into his art, he's getting more and more serious, and less and less commercial and more and more depressed because he's going in the opposite direction to what's needed....IF his goal is to sell something.

And that is what happens with most of the few people with the talent to succeed. They make deeply un-commercial stuff, then wonder why they can't make money. And nothing, nothing will shift them from their stance.

The long and short of screenwriting/filmmaking is this: 95% of people are outright not good enough. They don't have the talent, and they don't even realise they don't have the talent so they can't fix it.

Amongst the other 5% (the people on this thread) 99.9% of people don't write the things the industry makes, or don't network, market themselves or their products enough, or waste time on spurious things with spurious people. It's possible to spend an entire life time in the pseudo industry that surrounds filmmaking, music etc and not actually in the Industry.

The tiny fraction of people with the talent, who write the right things for the audience demographic and network professionally will make it to some level. In my opinion.


It's a writer's responsibility to conform to professional standards, not the Industry's responsibility to conform to amateur writer's standards.

Are they stupid for not loving our stuff, or are we stupid for not sending them the type of film they make?


It's worth bearing in mind that this feedback that has come from the Agent's readers is real, genuine feedback.

It's industry feedback. Everything else up to the point where people are considering giving you millions to make a film, or whether they are judging whether they can make money on it, isn't real. Not the websites, not the paid consultants, not festival feedback. Only the money.


The Readers are doing you a favour. They're telling you that, from their professional perspective, the script is suffering from:

1. Inconsistent characterisation.
2. A lack of conflict.
3. Non-standard structure.


They're telling you specifically how to improve, or at least adapt, if you want to sell a script to the Industry...or at least to them. It's an insight into the real world.

By deciding that they're just stupid,  that you're right and they're wrong, all you are doing is taking yourself out of the game.

This is the world of Star Wars, Marvel Films, the Golden Age of TV, video games , Virtual reality, Youtube...a billion things competing for your time. Whatever you're writing has to stand out from all of that and demand people's attention.

If it's not absolutely leaping off the page...what are you doing sending it to anyone in the Industry? That's the reality.

You, yourself realise this in your opening salvo:

They are looking for a Seth Rogan style vehicle.


The Hollywood version of this script would be called the Sexorcist...a name that stands out from the crowd.

It would largely mirror the Synder structure. It would be about George (Seth Rogan) who is a Sexorcist and whose profession would be a cover for his own broken heart and inability to find a soul mate. It would naturally progress through more and more outlandish scenarios and obstacles until he manages to convince one of his clients who he has fallen in love with, and isn't initially interested in him, to be with him. Or something along those lines.

It would be a relatively simple story, and all the art would be in finding original situations and making them funny.

The outlandish moments would become the trailer.

The marketing department would know exactly how to market it, and whom to market it to.

That is how the Industry largely works.

That's how easy it is...but NO-ONE DOES IT. This is why the Agent asked for a Save the Cat beat sheet..because invariably, invariably the scripts amateurs send out are not structured properly for professional needs.

You already know what they are looking for, but you don't want to write it. They make donuts and you want to sell them shoes.

Selling a script through an Agent to one of the 6 major studios is very rare, and the scripts usually have very strong genre, are standard structure and have high concept premises which stand out from the crowd with big, obvious conflicts.

They don't really make lo-fi stuff, unless they're chasing Oscars with a star cast and it's a very timely topic.

Those are the two things to sell: Big genre flicks, or Oscar vehicles. There's little point in wasting your time trying to get their attention if you're not writing these things.

That being said:

There are different avenues into the film Industry.

You have to know what your goal is, what kind of writer you are and then you have to tailor your approach depending.

There are Directors, and companies that make more lo-fi stuff, and you have to creatively target those that do, and probably get to know them personally. Someone like Alexander Payne is probably not a bad fit for someone like this story, though I think he'd try and introduce a bit more dark humour.

Or you have to start further down the list and find smaller independents with similar sensibilities, make the film to an exceptional level, create a buzz and sell it. If it is commercially successful, then you're on your way to becoming a more proven brand and investors are more likely to invest.

Peace and love.

(On a side note I can continue with specific feedback on your script if you're interested, either here or no its own thread. My sensibilities are more in line with the pro readers, so it might be pointless, but it's up to you).

Rick

Rick -- Excellent post.

I agree with Stumpzian, Rick -- vital words. (I also wanted to second your point, up above, that readers are better at sensing problems with beats/structure than they are at describing exactly what is causing that problem. A very important distinction that we need to learn to make to get the most out of feedback.)

I thought this would be a great idea for a 7WC, actually -- the Hollywood Sellout Challenge. The only parameter would be to write the most sellable, crowd-pleasing, big-budget genre flick you could. Really, we should all have one sitting around.

This is why I write as a hobby, if it was my full time job I'd go nuts!

The only part of this I enjoy is the writing. Producing and promoting, trying to take it to the next level and one day maybe be a money earner for me, that part I dislike immensely.

I can see Dave's frustration. The industry is always critizised for not being original enough so you would think they would welcome something different. But I also agree with Rick's points.  They know original stuff from unknown writers rarely sell. They only have so many slots to fill and it's their job if they don't produce the goods, so they go for safe bets all the way. That means familiar stories which conform to well established structures.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films Dave, this post is coming from a position of love and respect, and is for everyone on the thread, including myself. This is a really interesting thread, and I could honestly write for hours about the topics it deals with. I'm just posting it because I see so many people, in so many fields, making the same mistakes.

Rick - a thought provoking post for sure on a topic that impacts many writers. Thanks for weighing in as always. Some of what you say I agree with. Some not.

Quoted Text Writing is a tough gig.

Yep - And getting tougher by the day I suspect.

Quoted Text You have to have the confidence to stand up for your script, and also know when to step aside and listen to advice. And it's difficult, if not impossible, to know when to stand your ground and when to concede.

Concur. Add to that the complexity of market based advice versus artistic based advice and it makes the filter process for a writer even more difficult and complex.  Where we disagree (I think) is that you do not concur with “my confidence” in defending my script as is. You believe that I should step aside and that I should react to the Agent’s feedback. I don’t. Long winded way of saying that one man’s confidence is another man’s failure to react to criticism.

Quoted Text I've seen a large number of people in the creative industries essentially waste their entire careers because they refuse to do what the professionals tell them to and refuse to conform to obvious professional/commercial needs.

True. However, count me in as one who is going to refuse to conform to commercial needs (more on that later).

Quoted Text The long and short of screenwriting/filmmaking is this: 95% of people are outright not good enough. They don't have the talent, and they don't even realise they don't have the talent so they can't fix it.

Not sure about the numbers, but your premise is solid.

Quoted Text The tiny fraction of people with the talent, who write the right things for the audience demographic and network professionally will make it to some level. In my opinion.

I don't agree here. Yes, I believe that talented people do make it. I am a big fan of Sorkin, Tarintino, the Coen brothers and others and obviously they have talent. But I have read too many scripts that I love that did not make it and seen way too many movies that I've hated that did make it to believe that talent is the deciding factor. So, at least in my opinion, both people with talent and without talent will make it and the level of talent, at least in my experience, is not the deciding factor that it should be.

Quoted Text It's a writer's responsibility to conform to professional standards, not the Industry's responsibility to conform to amateur writer's standards. Are they stupid for not loving our stuff, or are we stupid for not sending them the type of film they make?

It is a commercial vs. artistic paradigm - more on this later.  I may be in the stupid camp and willingly so.

Quoted Text It's worth bearing in mind that this feedback that has come from the Agent's readers is real, genuine feedback.

No doubt it is genuine. The issue for me is (a) is it valid and (b) does it enhance the story. No doubt that it is geared toward commercialization.

Quoted Text It's industry feedback. Everything else up to the point where people are considering giving you millions to make a film, or whether they are judging whether they can make money on it, isn't real. Not the websites, not the paid consultants, not festival feedback. Only the money. The Readers are doing you a favour. They're telling you that, from their professional perspective, the script is suffering from: 1. Inconsistent characterisation. 2. A lack of conflict. 3. Non-standard structure. They're telling you specifically how to improve, or at least adapt, if you want to sell a script to the Industry...or at least to them. It's an insight into the real world. By deciding that they're just stupid,  that you're right and they're wrong, all you are doing is taking yourself out of the game.

That’s my “confidence” showing. While I believe that they are all genuine comments in terms of this agent, I do not believe they are valid criticisms.

Quoted Text This is the world of Star Wars, Marvel Films, the Golden Age of TV, video games , Virtual reality, Youtube...a billion things competing for your time. Whatever you're writing has to stand out from all of that and demand people's attention. If it's not absolutely leaping off the page...what are you doing sending it to anyone in the Industry? That's the reality. You, yourself realise this in your opening salvo: They are looking for a Seth Rogan style vehicle.

I am not writing that story and have no desire to.

Quoted Text The Hollywood version of this script would be called the Sexorcist...a name that stands out from the crowd. It would largely mirror the Synder structure. It would be about George (Seth Rogan) who is a Sexorcist and whose profession would be a cover for his own broken heart and inability to find a soul mate. It would naturally progress through more and more outlandish scenarios and obstacles until he manages to convince one of his clients who he has fallen in love with, and isn't initially interested in him, to be with him. Or something along those lines. It would be a relatively simple story, and all the art would be in finding original situations and making them funny.   The outlandish moments would become the trailer.

Not the story I am going to write so I guess I’m screwed in terms of having it made.  

Quoted Text That's how easy it is...but NO-ONE DOES IT. This is why the Agent asked for a Save the Cat beat sheet..because invariably, invariably the scripts amateurs send out are not structured properly for professional needs.

Quoted Text You’ll find as many folks who hate the formulaic structure of Save The Cat as those who rely on it and your paradigm is a false one.  i.e., The absence of a Save The Cat structure does not mean the absence of structure. It does for this agent. I believe the agent is wrong. And is Dustin elaborated earlier, it's not as though I am getting this feedback from Robert McKee - it is more than likely from a 23 year old intern who is guarding the gates. The notes have everything to do with what it takes to move the script from pile one to smaller pile two and little to do wit the quality of the script.

Quoted Text You already know what they are looking for, but you don't want to write it. They make donuts and you want to sell them shoes.

No, I know what these two want.  It’s not like I have not received other feedback on this thing which is 180 degrees from the critique from these two. As an example, one wants a sex scene. Another doesn’t want them to have sex at all as they feel it ruins the tension. One thinks Emily is too strong. One thinks she is too weak. Etc. etc.

Now– my general take.

1.     I probably should not whine about agent reactions. Not going to do so anymore.

2.     I am settled with not selling a screenplay. This process (thread) has got me back to the beginning – the why I started this. I want to write stories that I enjoy and whether or not they sell is irrelevant. I am not going to pursue a career as a screenwriter. I am going to enjoy my hobby of screenwriting. If you are 100% correct on the things I need to do to sell a feature, then I am not going to sell a feature because I do not want to do those things. That is the point where joy morphs into tedious work and I have already spent 35 years at tedious work. So, I’m going to default to joy.

3.     I continue to believe that the industry is filtered in a way that prevents cream from rising to the top and I am not talking about my work. There is far too much crap made for me to believe that the gatekeepers have a clue on what is artistically sound. They probably have a dead on ability to pin point what is commercially sound and if I am not going to succumb to that then I have to a be a bog boy and take the medicine. That is – I’m going to write. I’m not going to sell. That is a luxury I have as a retired old man. I do not recommend that approach to people who are trying to make a living selling scripts for many of the reasons you mentioned.

Quoted Text (On a side note I can continue with specific feedback on your script if you're interested, either here or no its own thread. My sensibilities are more in line with the pro readers, so it might be pointless, but it's up to you).

My preference would be that you post those on the thread for the script as I don’t want this thread to be focused on my script as much as the general topic and would like to hear stories and lessons learned from others on theirs. I value your feedback (I don’t agree with what you have said so far regarding the script) but am always appreciative of comments. So even if you are in alignment with the agent’s criticisms that I have cited here – please, still post on the script thread. I know you thoughts are well intended and genuine and who knows, after a while I may be swayed.

Peace – out.

Quoted from MarkRenshaw This is why I write as a hobby, if it was my full time job I'd go nuts! The only part of this I enjoy is the writing. Producing and promoting, trying to take it to the next level and one day maybe be a money earner for me, that part I dislike immensely. I can see Dave's frustration. The industry is always critizised for not being original enough so you would think they would welcome something different. But I also agree with Rick's points.  They know original stuff from unknown writers rarely sell. They only have so many slots to fill and it's their job if they don't produce the goods, so they go for safe bets all the way. That means familiar stories which conform to well established structures.

We seem to be kindred spirits here. Thanks for weighing in.

Here's why I think Dave's take is justified:
The final two rounds of the Page Awards are judged by industry producers, agents, and managers, not Christmas help. Those folks don't just look at the contest results, they judge and affect those results. If a script is a finalist, it's exceptional. So I wouldn't assume that someone who requested the script from a list of finalists gave it the same careful read and analysis that one of the contest judges did in the later rounds, and I wouldn't assume that their feedback is spot on.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films That's how easy it is...but NO-ONE DOES IT. This is why the Agent asked for a Save the Cat beat sheet..because invariably, invariably the scripts amateurs send out are not structured properly for professional needs.

Interested to know what big name features you have to your name considering it is that easy.

While your post is very well written and feels like it comes from a place of having an in-depth knowledge on how the industry works from personal experiences or stories from friends. How have you been able to put these ideas into place to further your writing career in the commercial market?

The percentages you mention seem like they were plucked out of thin air. 90% of stats are made up 80% of the time kind of thing. So I'm not sure how they are relevant at all.

Great answers, Dave. Just because one reader disliked it does not mean that it needs to change. I wholeheartedly agree with sticking to your guns, but like you I’m just a hobbyist and would never sacrifice my story for the sake of fitting into a box.

Quoted from Bogey Here's why I think Dave's take is justified: The final two rounds of the Page Awards are judged by industry producers, agents, and managers, not Christmas help. Those folks don't just look at the contest results, they judge and affect those results. If a script is a finalist, it's exceptional. So I wouldn't assume that someone who requested the script from a list of finalists gave it the same careful read and analysis that one of the contest judges did in the later rounds, and I wouldn't assume that their feedback is spot on.

I was going to make this same point earlier.

Obviously this is a great script and I feel it's good enough for a producer to say yay or nay to making it. But they shouldn't refuse due to tiny little details that can be easily changed, they should refuse because they're not looking to make this type of film. To suggest that it's down to inconsequentialities is silly.

Drawing on my own experience again, the script originally optioned is a completely different story to the one that will eventually be produced. This is because lots of people come in with their opinions and we've got to try and please them all.

An opinion from somebody with no invested interest in the script is worthless. Completely worthless.