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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Discussion of...     General Chat  ›  Screenwriting Rant #1 Moderators: bert
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Robert Timsah
Posted: December 3rd, 2020, 3:21am Report to Moderator
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Story Is Structure

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I ranted about screenwriting. Gotta have a release in the time of dragons covid.

https://robert-timsah.com/screenwriting-rant-1/


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Matthew Taylor
Posted: December 3rd, 2020, 5:30am Report to Moderator
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That read like it was very therapeutic  lol


Feature

42.2

Two steps to writing a good screenplay:
1) Write a bad one
2) Fix it
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AnthonyCawood
Posted: December 3rd, 2020, 5:37am Report to Moderator
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That was an interesting rant and made me chuckle in a couple of places.

I think an important part of the problem, that as screenwriter's we sometimes skip over, is that we judge what we watch as being bad.

Emphasis on the WATCH bit.

We then hold what we WRITE to the standard of what we WATCHED.

We almost never read the original script that the film/tv show is based on, because they're often not available.

So we are seeing an end product, after 100s of people have been involved in it, who knows what all that has done to the writer's original vision, the dialogue they slaved over, the deftly plotted narrative etc.

And this isn't restricted to Hollywood, my script for a short called Tattooji bears almost no relation to the version filmed by the indie outfit that made it... if you only WATCHED the short you might question my writing skills.

So, I advise to keep writing your best, hope that you find a way in (it does happen) and then keep your fingers crossed that 10 years down the line newer members of SS are not saying "I can write better than Robert Timsah" purely on the basis of a film they've just WATCHED.

Of course, many of your other points are perfectly valid too, but Hollywood is there to make money not art, if they see their current model as making money for them (and it does) then why would they change?


Anthony Cawood - Award winning screenwriter
Available Short screenplays - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/short-scripts
Available Feature screenplays - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/feature-film-scripts/
Screenwriting articles - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/articles
IMDB Link - http://www.imdb.com/name/nm6495672/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1
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JEStaats
Posted: December 3rd, 2020, 7:36am Report to Moderator
Old Timer


No sh*t, there I was....

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Hmmm...the next OWC?!
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Robert Timsah
Posted: December 3rd, 2020, 1:53pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from AnthonyCawood
That was an interesting rant and made me chuckle in a couple of places.

I think an important part of the problem, that as screenwriter's we sometimes skip over, is that we judge what we watch as being bad.

Emphasis on the WATCH bit.

We then hold what we WRITE to the standard of what we WATCHED.

We almost never read the original script that the film/tv show is based on, because they're often not available.

So we are seeing an end product, after 100s of people have been involved in it, who knows what all that has done to the writer's original vision, the dialogue they slaved over, the deftly plotted narrative etc.

And this isn't restricted to Hollywood, my script for a short called Tattooji bears almost no relation to the version filmed by the indie outfit that made it... if you only WATCHED the short you might question my writing skills.

So, I advise to keep writing your best, hope that you find a way in (it does happen) and then keep your fingers crossed that 10 years down the line newer members of SS are not saying "I can write better than Robert Timsah" purely on the basis of a film they've just WATCHED.

Of course, many of your other points are perfectly valid too, but Hollywood is there to make money not art, if they see their current model as making money for them (and it does) then why would they change?


Congrats on your success thus far.

You seem like a wise, intelligent and fair minded person.

I'm not.

I'm more akin to those Japanese soldiers still in the jungle fighting WW2.


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Robert Timsah
Posted: December 3rd, 2020, 2:03pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Matthew Taylor
That read like it was very therapeutic  lol


nah, i'm still pissed  


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AnthonyCawood
Posted: December 3rd, 2020, 2:28pm Report to Moderator
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lol


Anthony Cawood - Award winning screenwriter
Available Short screenplays - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/short-scripts
Available Feature screenplays - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/feature-film-scripts/
Screenwriting articles - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/articles
IMDB Link - http://www.imdb.com/name/nm6495672/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1
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eldave1
Posted: December 3rd, 2020, 4:40pm Report to Moderator
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That really spoke to me. mate.

I never listened to a professional singer and thought - well, fuck - I could do better than that.

I never watched a Boxer and thought. well. fuck - I could do that.

I never ate a meal cooked by a Master Chef and thought - fuck, I could do that.

I have watched thousands of films and countless amount of times I thought, fuck - I could do better than that. I think that is why this field brings so many hobbyist and wannabes into it - because they are looking at "professional" products that they could also create. Of all the arts and sciences. my belief is that screenwriting and movie making have the less effective filters in ensuring that quality makes it it to the top.

Rant on



My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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PKCardinal
Posted: December 3rd, 2020, 5:07pm Report to Moderator
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Yep!

We all have stories of the horrid happenings once others get involved. I have one project I refuse to even show to anyone else. Like it doesn't even exist. It's just cringe-worthy. The script is great, if I do say so myself. Finished high in a big(ish) contest.

Bottom line... it is incredibly difficult for a large group of people to collectively make something good. The more people involved, the less chance it's gonna work.

Of course, when you find people who share your vision and can pull it off... you get something like Breaking Bad. (Assuming you're as talented as Vince Gilligan. Which, of course, we all are. Right?...    Right?...              Is anyone still there?)

As for the dog thing... I once killed a dog on page 3. First set of notes from a trusted friend and fellow screenwriter: "You can't kill a dog on page 3." It's not that he thought I shouldn't... it's that he thought I couldn't sell the script if I did.

Changed it to a wolf, because, apparently, killing wolves is okay.

(He later also saved the life of a young boy I had killed on page 74.)




PaulKWrites.com

60 Feet Under - Low budget, contained thriller/Feature
The Hand of God - Low budget, semi-contained thriller/Feature
Wait Till Next Year - Disney-style family sports comedy/Feature

Many shorts available for production: comedy, thriller, drama, light horror
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JEStaats
Posted: December 3rd, 2020, 6:19pm Report to Moderator
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No sh*t, there I was....

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My wife's favorite advice to me is "shoot the dog." And she's 100% right.
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spesh2k
Posted: December 3rd, 2020, 6:24pm Report to Moderator
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I feel your pain, man. Luckily (and maybe unluckily in terms of $$$), the two films I've had produced didn't have any studio interference -- they were films that were made independently and then got picked up for distribution. The scripts were evaluated by pros and were given script coverage, etc, and did have input from the filmmakers, but that's about it. The films didn't really stray too far from the scripts. And the films luckily turned out pretty good and got some good reviews -- 79% on Rotten Tomatoes isn't enough to put a little-known indie flick over the top, though.

But my first film, I saw a glimpse of that in the marketing once it was picked up -- we had a really, really cool yet provocative poster that I really believed spoke to our audience. But, because it was provocative, the distribution company thought it'd be too controversial and gave us a really shitty, watered down poster that really didn't have much to do with the movie. Looks almost like something they had an intern throw together in Photoshop. And I think it really affected box office numbers (it was only in limited theaters for like a week or two) and our performance on streaming. I've actually read reviews where they said they almost skipped over it because of the lame, generic poster -- not good, especially when the movie isn't well known. They were thinking "safe" for a broader audience but really alienated a lot of people who I think the film would've/could've truly appealed to.

RE: Most amateur writers are writing scripts for pure cinema rather than writing the shit that studios are putting out -- I kind of disagree about that, I see more amateurs trying to mirror whatever's "in", whether it's based on articles by people on the inside of the biz or whoever... and I think, a lot of the time, their writing suffers for it because it often doesn't allow for the writers to develop a voice and distinguish themselves from other amateur writers. Thus, the pool of unproduced, amateur writers just expands and expands and there's nothing that really separates them from each other. What a lot of amateur writers don't know is that many of these studio films aren't spec scripts, they're usually hired to write these films that some other people came up with concepts/ideas for. A lot of the time, they're hired to rewrite something that another writer was hired for... and so on and so on (going back to Anthony's point). It ends up too many cooks in the kitchen, too many people who aren't writers in the writer's (or writers' plural) ear, telling them to make something palatable for a broad audience rather than focusing on something original or provocative. Now, it isn't just studio films that are putting out bad films (they also put out some good stuff, too). There's a lot of indie films, such as mine, that have zero interference... which can hurt a film if nobody's speaking up and telling the writer/director that something fucking sucks (often times, the writer and director are the same person). Watched this horror flick the other day on Netflix that was produced, written by and directed by the same dude (don't wanna blow up anybody's spot and name names). And his wife was the star of the movie (they're frequent collaborators). They've done previous films that I liked (and probably got funding due to those previous films), but I watched this thinking "Didn't anybody tell them that this script fucking sucks?"

Point is, being a pro screenwriter and getting movies made is difficult no matter what... there's a million reasons why it's hard to get a script made into a film and, on top of that, there's a million reasons why a film that IS made doesn't find success or turns out to be a bad film. It's not just one reason, it's not JUST because "Hollywood isn't looking for anything original anymore", though I'm sure that's part of it in the sense that the movie business IS a business. Investors care about making money on their investment and they want a sure thing -- if the movie turns out great and gets awards, that's great! But goal number one is to, not only make your money back, but to get a return on your investment. Often times, quality and originality is compromised. Sometimes the shitty quality/lack of originality = no ROI because of the shitty quality. And most of the time (given how many more movies come out these days in comparison to how many used to come out), quality doesn't fucking matter. Good movies won't make their money back until years later for a number of reasons (poor marketing, not a very marketable concept, etc). It's a shit business and there just isn't a single reason as to why most writers will be unable to break through and change the landscape of cinema and the quality of the films that come out when there are a lot of writers who find success but that success doesn't translate into quality films. I guess you can say it's the machine we call Hollywood that is the reason, but there's A LOT of shitty, shitty indie films that come out too, without studio interference.

Just my two cents.

-- Michael


THE SUICIDE THEORY (Amazon Prime, 79% Rotten Tomatoes) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2517300/?ref_=nm_knf_i1
RAGE (Coming Feb. 2021) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8874764/?ref_=nm_knf_i2

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Robert Timsah
Posted: December 3rd, 2020, 6:28pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from PKCardinal
Yep!

As for the dog thing... I once killed a dog on page 3. First set of notes from a trusted friend and fellow screenwriter: "You can't kill a dog on page 3." It's not that he thought I shouldn't... it's that he thought I couldn't sell the script if I did.



LOL, nice first hand account.

Steam roll that f'n dog as thin as a pancake in the opening scene.



(my dog is staring at me)


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Robert Timsah
Posted: December 3rd, 2020, 9:03pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from spesh2k
I feel your pain, man. Luckily (and maybe unluckily in terms of $$$), the two films I've had produced didn't have any studio interference -- they were films that were made independently and then got picked up for distribution. The scripts were evaluated by pros and were given script coverage, etc, and did have input from the filmmakers, but that's about it. The films didn't really stray too far from the scripts. And the films luckily turned out pretty good and got some good reviews -- 79% on Rotten Tomatoes isn't enough to put a little-known indie flick over the top, though.

.........  -- Michael


Thanks for your point of view and sharing your experience, which is far more than mine. I sometimes wonder if the reason American cinema has fallen apart is because our culture, in general, has fallen apart?

Turn on late night TV or Saturday Night Live and compare them to their yesteryear. It's like watching a cult of people pretending something is funny because they're all apart of the same cult - and nobody dares speak up or say anything. This mindset is pervading all aspects of American culture, news and entertainment. The growth and popularity of k-dramas and k-pop is directly tied to America's decline in these arenas in my view.

I'll rant about this later.  


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AnthonyCawood
Posted: December 3rd, 2020, 9:08pm Report to Moderator
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In Korea they argue that American influence has created K-Pop and is at the root of the decline of Korean culture.

Personally, i quite like Black Pink


Anthony Cawood - Award winning screenwriter
Available Short screenplays - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/short-scripts
Available Feature screenplays - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/feature-film-scripts/
Screenwriting articles - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/articles
IMDB Link - http://www.imdb.com/name/nm6495672/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1
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spesh2k
Posted: December 3rd, 2020, 10:22pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Robert Timsah


Thanks for your point of view and sharing your experience, which is far more than mine. I sometimes wonder if the reason American cinema has fallen apart is because our culture, in general, has fallen apart?

Turn on late night TV or Saturday Night Live and compare them to their yesteryear. It's like watching a cult of people pretending something is funny because they're all apart of the same cult - and nobody dares speak up or say anything. This mindset is pervading all aspects of American culture, news and entertainment. The growth and popularity of k-dramas and k-pop is directly tied to America's decline in these arenas in my view.

I'll rant about this later.  


I think we live in a society where people would rather applaud something than laugh at something. Not me, personally. But I especially see it with late night TV. I remember loving late night when I was a kid, sneaking up past my bedtime and watching Letterman and Conan during the 90s. Even after that, I thought Kimmel was funny when his late night show first started. And I loved Colbert Report (and the Daily Show). But everyone seems so, I dunno, phony right now. As far as SNL goes, I think it was always give or take with the comedy -- there were always sketches that sucked and always sketches that were great. I still see some funny SNL stuff here and there.

Not sure if American cinema has fallen... this is always questioned with different generations. I always watch old Siskel & Ebert episodes that date back to the mid 70s and they'd always have conversations about whether cinema is dead or not. It's just now, especially because of so many streaming platforms, there's almost an over-saturation of films and more of them are bad than good -- depending an what you look for. I love films like Freddy Got Fingered and The Room, they entertain me. I see entertainment value in bad films, especially in the horror genre. And, though I love the art of screenwriting and the art of filmmaking and pure cinema, its purpose 1st and foremost is to entertain. And people are entertained by different things -- when film studios invest in a film, they want to entertain a broad audience on the most part because they want to make money. It's always been that way. But, these days, especially due to technology and social media, people's attention spans are getting weaker and weaker. In fact, I recently wrote a book on video marketing and the average attention span of a human being is that of a goldfish these days. And with writing marketing videos, the goal is always to grab the audience within the first 6 seconds.

So, IMO, it's sort of just part of a cycle combined with the way society has changed due to more convenience made possible by technology and social media.

-- Michael


THE SUICIDE THEORY (Amazon Prime, 79% Rotten Tomatoes) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2517300/?ref_=nm_knf_i1
RAGE (Coming Feb. 2021) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8874764/?ref_=nm_knf_i2

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