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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    One Week Challenge    October 2012 One Week Challenge  ›  The Tool of Morality - 10/12 OWC
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  Author    The Tool of Morality - 10/12 OWC  (currently 7046 views)
DanBall
Posted: November 5th, 2012, 2:21pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale
Dan, hopefully you know that i personally have no problem with giving poor reviews or negative feedback, as I do it quite frequently.


Well, I thought yours was a little rough too, but I saw elsewhere that you acknowledged you were rough and apologized for it or somewhat regretted it. That was cool. I had no beef with that. You were trying hard to read everything quickly and it wore you out. I get that. Thanks for admitting that and acknowledging that there are better standards to giving unfavorable reviews.


Quoted Text
But, I don't like when I see someone doing it, based on poor feedback they received from the same writer, which seems to be the case here, at least in part.


Well, you're entitled to that perspective, but after the lambasting I received from Ray, I didn't feel like it was appropriate to sugarcoat my thoughts or be less than brutally honest, since that kind of restraint wasn't shown to me. If respect is to be mutual around here, then I'm simply rising to the occasion. But I've said my piece and I'm ready to restore that mutual respect back to a good, decent level of understanding. Ray took a shot at me, I volleyed back, we're even. Now, I'm ready to put that behind us. But if I continue to get feedback of a similar nature, I'll return it. There's no excuse for it.


Quoted Text
You didn't go into much detail on your script thread in answering any questions posed or mistakes you made...You really should do that, as you'll probably get some feedback to your words that could help you going forward.


I didn't think anybody really cared since they didn't seem interested in seeing it fixed up. Figured I would fix it on my own in private and possibly present it again later. But if you're interested, I'll reconsider that.


"I remember a time of chaos. Ruined dreams. This wasted land. But most of all, I remember The Road Warrior. The man we called 'Max'."

THE PINBALL WARRIOR (scifi, WIP, ~30 pg.)
A STAND AGAINST EVIL (short, 9 pg.)
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RayW
Posted: November 5th, 2012, 2:34pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from DanBall
The juxtaposition that's at the core of this story is certainly a noble effort, but it's heavy-handed and painfully obvious.


Yeah.
All people always like subtle.
My entry was crafted just for you.

On top of that, the concept didn't really work as a film.
Right.
It would worked better as a cheese doodle.

You hit the reader over the head with both dialogue and violence...which constitutes all nine pages.

What?!
I couldn't hear you over my crunching.
What?!

I get that you were short on ideas, but it seems kind of amateurish to use so much dialogue even when you're desperate.
'Scuse me. Lemme turn the volume down, first http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgnqkY6Fba4 so I can hear what you're saying more bettererer.

Granted, you broke that rule as part of the design, but the actual content of that dialogue was weak...so it still didn't work.
Rule?
There was a rule?
And I broke it?
D@mnation.
I was trying to destroy it.
Yeah. The dialog was weak. Holds no heavy handed interest.

The whole time, it felt like Regina and Joe were the same character.
I don't even know how to address the discrepancy between how both of us read the story.
Sorry.

Nothing distinguished their personalities except for the character headers.
Okay. See above.
Wait. Are you NOW arguing their difference was toooo subtle for you to notice?

I've read Wikipedia articles on morality that were more dynamic!
Did you get your wikipedia Masters or PhD framed?
I did.

Another problem I had was with Joe's seeming apathy to his handiwork.
Yeah. I'm pretty sure that's an identifying characteristic of a sociopath.

If he was so sexually-invested in those killings, how was he able to carry on such a thoughtful, coherent conversation?
See above reference to wiki PhD.
I've specialized in mental health issues.
The irony, eh?! HA!

Getting his jollies on would've left him a bit more distracted, wouldn't it?
Nope.
I can eat beaver while carrying on a civil conversation.



I know he's psychotic, but that's a stretch.
Then my heavy handedness was toooo subtle for your keen mind.
He's a sociopath, not a psychopath.

Since the characters never once acknowledged what they were doing, it's like you transcribed a long-lost episode of "Fun with Real Audio."
Don't know about the source you cited but I can fold clothes while talking, drive while talking, h3ll, I can even eat while talking.


It's no big deal to not take particular note of what you're doing while you're having a conversation.

It's strange that you went for such a niche audience with this contest.
Yes. Mighty strange.
What the world needs more of in shorts is providing more content to serve all four quadrants.


Coupled with the fact that it's wall-to-wall dialogue and you left out the supernatural requirement...it's like you didn't want to win.
Angels were either toooo heavy handed subtle or a part of your normal and natural world.
Sorry. My bad.

It also sounds like you didn't even care, either.
Play poker much?
It's all about the "WIN RIGHT NOW!"
You'd like it.

I'm not sure what you'd do to fix it.
Then I shall seek informed professional guidance elsewhere.

I suppose there are ways you could cut down on the dialogue and allow the action to mingle with it more, but that's more cogitating than I care to field at the moment.
Yes. More cogitating on the offensive heavy handed action is what I seek!
Maybe you are the right man for the job after all!

Honestly, I'm surprised this wasn't better, considering the pompous way you ripped into my Room 3.
Could you be more specific?
That was the one that had no hurricane in it while the cast of twenty ran about the motel shrubbery in the night, correct?

I get that it was a bad script with more than a few problems, but considering the flaws yours had...why was that any reason to be so harsh on a fellow author's work?
If my house was on fire I cannot possibly stick my head out my window and yell to you "HEY, DAN! YOUR HOUSE IS ALSO ON FIRE!" Right?

If anything, I thought that would make you more gracious, considering your own shortcomings.
I want dentists giving dental advice, lawyers giving law advice, brick layers giving masonry advice.
From whom shall I seek writing advice, then? Hmm... ?

I believe other writers are exactly from whom I want my advice, good or bad.

I figure most of us here have a mutual respect for each other.
I respect you.
I may not respect your writing any more than I respect your dental work, knowledge of the law, or masonry skilz.

What you said about my work blatantly crossed that line.
What line, where?

I sent you a PM about it, but you've yet to respond to it, so I'm calling you out publicly.
If you wanna do this publicly, so be it.
I advise against it though.

FWIW, typically I don't wrestle with pigs in the mud, though.
No one can tell who wins and the pig seems to enjoy it too much.

If I've misunderstood something about your approach, I apologize, but I doubt I have--it's pretty rough.
Nah. I'm pretty sure you got my heavy handed subtleties pretty much nailed.
(Shhh. Don't tell no one: I like it rough!!! It's a seeecret.)

I know others are appreciative of the time and effort you put into their analyses and I would be too...had you finished it.
You ever look at some of those "InkTip production companies wants" requests?
Think that all the reading producers and directors always provide any feedback whatsoever to all of those that send submissions?
Sometimes, like when you don't have hurricanes in your low budget refuge-from-a-hurricane screenplay with a cast of dozens talking in the bushes, the producer/director doesn't ever email you back.
Know why?

Not only did you jump ship halfway, but you also used it as a backhanded insult along with your other barbs.
You're being too subtle.
I don't understand what you're saying.
I need more heavy handedness from you.
You mean the "Pickle, chicken, 3, abacus, Zeus!!! Whatever." was a barb?

And nothing was ever said that others hadn't said in more respectful, friendly manners.
I have no idea what that means, but I'm sure you're correct.
Well, done, sir.

So no, I'm not appreciative.
Okay.

I think I would've been more understanding had you avoided my script altogether.
Well, sh!t, bro!
Had I known that was your submission to the anonymous contest I would have!
Cheers! We'd both be happy!

You had a lot of work to do and you probably knew reviewing Room 3 wasn't going to benefit either of us.
Yes. I probaly would have known what was in your screenplay before reading it had my crystal ball not been on the fritz that afternoon.
And my dog ate my ClifNotes.

Yet you couldn't pass up the opportunity to flaunt your whatever.
HEY, NOW!
Now YOU'VE crossed the line, buddy!
I happen to be quite proud of my... whatever.
It sparkles in the sunlight. Wanna see it again?!
http://image.blingee.com/images16/content/output/000/000/000/56b/429935238_697353.gif

There's no need to explain your actions, but I would hope you'd use some discretion in the future.
Oh, thank God.
In abundance, I promise. Liberally.

Writers shouldn't have to take crap from other writers; the rest of the world serves up enough of that on its own.
I can't think of anyone else I'd rather take cr@p from.

In the immortal words of Rodney Dangerfield, "Relax, will ya?"
Way ahead of ya, 'mater.
I'll wait for you to ketchup.

I'm mad at you, but it's nothing I can't get over.
I am truly blessed.

If you read this and you think I'm out of my mind, then that's your right.
'Preciate that, guv.
Mighty white of you.

But I hope this is just a good shakeup and we can have an honest, respectful and professional relationship from now on.
Consider me officially shook.
Agreed.
http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/01/11/1101_ag17_gallery__550x369.jpg




Revision History (1 edits)
RayW  -  November 5th, 2012, 3:04pm
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Dreamscale
Posted: November 5th, 2012, 2:40pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from DanBall
I didn't think anybody really cared since they didn't seem interested in seeing it fixed up. Figured I would fix it on my own in private and possibly present it again later. But if you're interested, I'll reconsider that.


Dan, I think you're missing the point here.

We all know that an OWC doesn't give much time for anything, especially fine tuning one's script.  But, most of the time, the writer will post a response to the feedback and address certain issues, as in what he/she was thinking, what was a downright mistake and why it was made, or thanks for catching various mistakes that the writer didn't even realize were mistakes.

For instance, you had a line in your script about a baby, and both Ray and I brought that up, saying, basically, "WTF?".

In Felipe's OWC, I (and I think another 1 or 2 peeps) mentioned that his main character was buttass nude the entire script.  Felipe responded that he forgot and mentioned why he forgot, which was totally cool and understandable.

No one likes getting negative feedback, but there are times (most times, actually) when negative feedback actually helps a whole Hell of alot more than glowing praise, when praise shouldn't be thrown out.

Everyone makes mistakes.  That's totally understandable.  The problem is that mistakes are simply that - something that wasn't supposed to be written the way it was.  The way you learn is when you find out things you didn't know or realize were actually mistakes.

Feedback is meant to help, not hurt.  Sometimes it doesn't come off that way, and I for one know damn well I could say things in a more positive way or be "softer" in my words.

Don't hate the reviewer unless what he or she says is complete horseshit, or downright incorrect.  We're all trying to learn and help at the same time.

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DanBall
Posted: November 5th, 2012, 2:50pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Jeff, I'm going to quote your response on the Room 3 thread and reply to it over there.


"I remember a time of chaos. Ruined dreams. This wasted land. But most of all, I remember The Road Warrior. The man we called 'Max'."

THE PINBALL WARRIOR (scifi, WIP, ~30 pg.)
A STAND AGAINST EVIL (short, 9 pg.)
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Grandma Bear
Posted: November 5th, 2012, 2:56pm Report to Moderator
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Reading this thread is pretty funny. I assume Dan is not aware of our frequent brawls at SS. This is almost like an argument at MP.  

FWIW, everyone has their own way of reviewing scripts. Some praise everything. Some praise nothing. When you post a script at SS for feedback. You will get all kinds. That's the beauty of it.  


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Dreamscale
Posted: November 5th, 2012, 3:01pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from DanBall
Hey Jeff, I'm going to quote your response on the Room 3 thread and reply to it over there.


OK...not to sure what this means exactly, but I'm game...

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DanBall
Posted: November 5th, 2012, 3:37pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale


OK...not to sure what this means exactly, but I'm game...



Boom.


"I remember a time of chaos. Ruined dreams. This wasted land. But most of all, I remember The Road Warrior. The man we called 'Max'."

THE PINBALL WARRIOR (scifi, WIP, ~30 pg.)
A STAND AGAINST EVIL (short, 9 pg.)
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DanBall
Posted: November 5th, 2012, 3:39pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Grandma Bear
Reading this thread is pretty funny. I assume Dan is not aware of our frequent brawls at SS. This is almost like an argument at MP.  


Not really, but it is a forum on the internet. Not exactly a strange concept.


Quoted Text
FWIW, everyone has their own way of reviewing scripts. Some praise everything. Some praise nothing. When you post a script at SS for feedback. You will get all kinds. That's the beauty of it.  


That might be the beauty of it, but is all of it healthy for the community?


"I remember a time of chaos. Ruined dreams. This wasted land. But most of all, I remember The Road Warrior. The man we called 'Max'."

THE PINBALL WARRIOR (scifi, WIP, ~30 pg.)
A STAND AGAINST EVIL (short, 9 pg.)
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ReneC
Posted: November 5th, 2012, 4:32pm Report to Moderator
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Dan, as with any set of notes, just take what you need from them and disregard the rest. If you get offended at what people say in their notes you aren't going to make it very far. Grow a thick skin and let it all slide off you. Believe me, the notes you'll get down the road will tear your heart apart if you let them.

Notes are subjective opinions. It's your job to interpret what's at the heart of the notes and address whatever really needs to be improved. They are rarely personal, rarely directed at the writer as a person, so don't take them personally. Just be appreciative of whatever notes you do get, particularly if they help in any way, and move on.


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DV44
Posted: November 5th, 2012, 4:55pm Report to Moderator
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My take on this is i don't think Dan has a problem with criticism on his script but just the way people are revieiwing his script in a demeaning way. It's one thing to say you don't like something but it's different when people take it to a higher level and start making fun of your wriitng at your expense. I believe that's how all this started.
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DanBall
Posted: November 5th, 2012, 5:06pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from DV44
My take on this is i don't think Dan has a problem with criticism on his script but just the way people are revieiwing his script in a demeaning way. It's one thing to say you don't like something but it's different when people take it to a higher level and start making fun of your wriitng at your expense. I believe that's how all this started.


Thanks, Face! I don't think you could've made it simpler. (I certainly didn't!)


"I remember a time of chaos. Ruined dreams. This wasted land. But most of all, I remember The Road Warrior. The man we called 'Max'."

THE PINBALL WARRIOR (scifi, WIP, ~30 pg.)
A STAND AGAINST EVIL (short, 9 pg.)
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DanBall
Posted: November 5th, 2012, 5:12pm Report to Moderator
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Here's the PM I sent Ray four days ago:


Quoted Text
Hi,

I wrote Room 3 and I was pretty insulted by your analysis. I feel like you went to extraordinary lengths to humiliate and disrespect this author, despite showing respect and decency to nearly everyone else you critiqued. I felt like it crossed a line and wanted you to know that. My hope is that we could discuss this and put a better face on the situation. Thanks!

Dan


Did you have a problem with this, Ray? I gave you several days to reply, but you didn't even acknowledge it, despite being active on other parts of the forum. At that point, was I supposed to just get over it or bend over and ask for more? I'm confused. I thought I gave you a prime opportunity to set this right in case I'd misinterpreted the critique or you were having a bad day when you wrote it, but you didn't seem interested in setting it right. As great and encouraging as this place can be, I didn't think it was right to let this incident go unmentioned and detract from the quality of the community.

I'm not some old experienced guy who's seen it all, but I've seen enough to know that there's rarely a good excuse for one person to insult another while critiquing their work. Most excuses are bad ones, given only to excuse poor, asinine behavior. The only reason the behavior's ever justified is because, occasionally, some of these clowns rise to ranks of prominence and they dish it out from on high too. Still doesn't make it right. Nice people rise up through the ranks too and never compromise their niceness. They probably reject people all day long. But those people probably feel a helluva lot better, despite the bad news. People here have a choice: do you build up your fellow writers despite their flaws or tear them down because they suck? Personally, I don't think the latter is healthy for any kind of creative community and I think it should be discouraged at all costs.


"I remember a time of chaos. Ruined dreams. This wasted land. But most of all, I remember The Road Warrior. The man we called 'Max'."

THE PINBALL WARRIOR (scifi, WIP, ~30 pg.)
A STAND AGAINST EVIL (short, 9 pg.)
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RayW
Posted: November 5th, 2012, 5:20pm Report to Moderator
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Move on, Dan.



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DanBall
Posted: November 5th, 2012, 5:23pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from RayW
Move on, Dan.



Quoted from RayW
I think this is the author: http://tinyurl.com/987w6nx


So you just want me to forget about this, then? Or do you have anything else to add?


"I remember a time of chaos. Ruined dreams. This wasted land. But most of all, I remember The Road Warrior. The man we called 'Max'."

THE PINBALL WARRIOR (scifi, WIP, ~30 pg.)
A STAND AGAINST EVIL (short, 9 pg.)
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RayW
Posted: November 5th, 2012, 5:26pm Report to Moderator
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Freedom

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Nope. Yep. Whatever works for you.
Pretty much done before I even started.

LOL! Pretty funny pic, right?
That's my goto guy for... these circumstances.



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