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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    One Week Challenge    October 2013 One Week Challenge  ›  October 2013 OWC Scripts in one location
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  Author    October 2013 OWC Scripts in one location  (currently 42332 views)
LC
Posted: October 23rd, 2013, 6:30pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from KevinLenihan
...Writers need to read pro scripts. Current pro level spec scripts.

... You've heard a lot here about "unfilmables" and asides, and about "proper" slugs, and about "novelistic" description, and even about using "we" or "us" in action lines. And also, of course, about passive verb use...

... And it's important to learn all that stuff, don't get me wrong. But then it's important to read pro scripts and see the difference between rules and rules of thumb. When you see a pro writer bend a rule, take a close look, and you can usually see why. It's not because the pro doesn't understand the rule.  It's because he has chosen the most effective way to convey the story to someone who might be interested in turning his script into a movie.

Each writer develops his own way of doing it. That's part of his voice. But if you pick up 20 pro scripts, you will not find a single one that does not bend the rules in some ways. Just think about that for a moment.

And if you are a newer writer, and a veteran amateur writer insists you conform to these "rules" in an inflexible way, ask them politely...politely...to suggest a pro script that is a good model for the rules they advocate so strenously. If they cannot suggest a single pro spec script that conforms to the type of screenwriting they insist is "correct", doesn't that tell you something? Doesn't it?


Absolutely agree with Kev on this. The thing is 'story' is key and the ability to weave all of those things mentioned above (we-see's/asides/unfilmables) deftly and with a professional writing style.

The reason 'we see', for example will stick out like a sore thumb in 'beginner' screenplays (as opposed to amateur - pro just means I've been paid) is generally because all of the other writing surrounding it is not constructed well and falls well below par. If you write like a pro you can pretty much break every rule in the book 'cause you have the ability to make it look good.







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KevinLenihan
Posted: October 23rd, 2013, 7:03pm Report to Moderator
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The thing is, not only is story king, but studying it is fascinating. Just taking a movie or a TV show and breaking down the reasons why you are reacting or not reacting to a scene is endlessly interesting and instructive.

Here's an example: in True Grit, Mattie catches up to Cogsburn and the Texas Ranger at the river. They forcefully send her away while they cross over on the ferry. But she breaks free of her captor and takes her horse across the harrowing river.

I would have screwed up what comes next if I had written the story. I would have had Mattie arrive on the opposite bank, drenched and exhausted, and looking up to see the distant silhouettes of Cogsburn and the Ranger riding off. She would then have to find the strength and determination to catch them.

But that's not how they did it. Instead, Cogsburn and the Ranger watch her struggle across the river. For the first time, Cogsburn is impressed. When Mattie arrives, the ranger proceeds to give her a switching, and she cries to Cogsburn for help. He thinks if over. This is a weird scene. If I was writing it, I would have stopped myself thinking it was too weird. But I would have been wrong.

Cogsburn pulls his gun on the ranger and stops the switching forcefully.

The whole scene is powerful, and works because of the set up. We saw in the first act that Mattie has lost her father, and she is very stubborn and willful. So she has a need for a father figure, and it has to be someone tough enough and stubborn enough to stand up to her.

Meanwhile, Cogsburn is a tough old marshal and a lonely drunk living in a storeroom on a cot. Clearly these two need each other. We sense it, we want it to happen. When Cogsburn watches her cross the river, we feel the bond connecting for the first time. When he stands up for her against the Ranger, the bond is cemented. It's the emotional center point of the story. Nothing is more important than this bond, and it was established dramatically and powerfully. And this connection moves us only because the set up was so careful and effective.

That's the kind of stuff we need to study. Why do things move us? Why do we care about a character, or the connection between characters?

Because it's not just random. There is technique used...and structure. A wide variety of it. So much to study and learn from.

When I look at the reviews of OWCs, I would like to see more of that discussion. What makes us want to turn from page to page? Are there puzzles we need to see solved? Mystery boxes revealed? Characters we need to see what happens to?

Rene left some good reviews today where he did some of that. Others have too. I just want to see more of that. If we don't care about the characters in the stories, why not? Because if we don't, the stories are empty.

I think if we focus more on story, we will all become better writers. We'll write stories people react to. Writing can always be polished. But in reality, it's stories that get made into films, not screenplays.
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Dreamscale
Posted: October 23rd, 2013, 7:36pm Report to Moderator
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Oh, Kevin...damn, bro...really?

How many movies are produced each year?  Pretty much an impossible question to answer, but let's talk about English speaking movies...500?  750?

How many of these "Professional" productions are even remotely decent or good?

If we listen to you, the answer is most likely, every single one of them, right?

What's the real answer though?  20?  25?  50?  Yeah, probably somewhere on the lower side of any of these numbers.

But how could that be, because a Pro knows how to write character and story and they can break any and all "rules" because tehy're a Pro, right?

WRONG.

Most Pro writers are terrible and the movies they're asociated with only proves this over and over again.

What you should really be preaching is to watch movies that suck and understand why they suck. Where did the writer go wrong?  What can I do to write a better script, make a better widget, show all those Pros what they should be doing.

If something sucks, it sucks and it doesn't matter who's behind it or what name it goes by.  Don't be such a follower, and praise everything that's praised, when in reality it shold be shunned and booed.
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KevinLenihan
Posted: October 23rd, 2013, 7:50pm Report to Moderator
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Jeff, if I was a follower, would I be making waves in here like I do? Who am I following?

But yes, there are things to be learned from bad movies.

However...you have revealed your position for the absurdity it is, which should be really instructive to new writers here.

New writers:

Jeff's position is that we need to "show all the pros what they should be doing".

My position: read pro scripts. They each have their own style and voice, so it's not a matter of copying, but read and learn. There is much to be learned. Then develop your own style.

Jeff, can you give us an example of one script that was bought by a studio and that meets your standard? Can you show us one? Thousands are optioned every year, hundreds filmed. Please give us one we can look at. There must be one.
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Grandma Bear
Posted: October 23rd, 2013, 8:15pm Report to Moderator
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I'm confused here. Jeff, are you saying that screenplays written with perfect formatting and perfect English make better films than movies made from scripts with more emotional pull, but sucky grammar and shitty slugs?


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Pale Yellow
Posted: October 23rd, 2013, 8:40pm Report to Moderator
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It is all about telling a unique story guys...that reads easy/fast...and intrigues the reader. I can promise you, the director does not give a shit about a misspelled word or a slug issue.

Also...like anything....screenwriting is changing as fast as anything else. Old rules are changing. Read pro scripts...keep up with how they look.
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RayW
Posted: October 23rd, 2013, 8:44pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale
What you should really be preaching is to watch movies that suck and understand why they suck. Where did the writer go wrong?  What can I do to write a better script, make a better widget, show all those Pros what they should be doing.

Agreed, and just the tip of the production iceberg.

Once the almighty spec screenplay is accepted then it's invariably going to be rewritten to accommodate the producer's cast, crew, equipment, location, budgeting, and marketing resources. LOL!

Oh! Oh! Oh! And then... And then, once the producers and directors and distributors and the finance people sign off on the "finalized" "locked screenplay" to proceed with actual pre-production - guess what happens to the holy locked script?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_script#Overview
"Revision pages are distributed on colored paper, a different color for each set of revisions, with each changed line marked by an asterisk in the right margin of the page. The progression of colors varies from one production to the next, but a typical sequence would be: white, blue, pink, yellow, green, goldenrod, buff, salmon, cherry, tan, ivory, white (this time known as "double white"), and back to blue ("double blue")."

LOL!
That's industry standard!
Just how many permutations of your holy, second re-write (if not script doctored ghost re-written) "locked screenplay" do you think are possible?

How about you read the production story for 'Salt' and consider how much changes from the source screenplay to what ends up on screen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_(2010_film)#Production
BTW, that isn't in the least bit uncommon, just a good documentation of what happens.

Watch about fifty writer/director/actor/producer commentaries on DVD or BluRay.
Take written notes about all the changes from script to screen.
The budget forces changes.
The secured locations forces changes.
The director makes on the fly changes.
The actors all want to make a bazillion changes on each and every single line of action and dialog.
The editor selects the best takes from what's provided and hatchets out a "fat cut".
This is whittled down to a pre-distributor approval cut.
The distributor makes changes.
Then the MPAA makes changes.

Now - what is on the screen compared to what you wrote?

Pfft.

Okay, okay, okay. All that's bullsh!t, right?
Of course it is.

Then just consider the DVD/BR bonus extras of A) deleted scenes, and B) alternate scenes.

Consider the cost to shoot those scenes only to NOT include them in the final cut.
We're talking tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars per screen minute of essentially trash.

And someone wants to quibble over whether to fight for their right to include epic monstrosities such as:

     We see BOB, a good natured thoughtful man somewhere in his
     forties but could easily pass for thirty, warily walking down the
     great wall of chinese with a bag of sandwitches prepared just the
     way his deceased grandmother, whom he loved very much,
     taught him to when he was a lad of six.


No.
Not only am I'm not reading 90 - 100 pages of that but screenwriter agents are not going to either, and they are your gatekeepers to big budget directors and producers.

So, you can play in the sandbox with -ly and -ing words, no ages after character intros followed with overly lengthy character descriptions, slelling & glamaticle errers, and unfilmables galore - but... your disrespectful pseudo-hard work will be wasted until you learn to comply with some industry standards.

Now, if you wanna write for yourself to film then... you can do pretty much whatever you want.
Gopherit!
Otherwise...



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Dreamscale
Posted: October 23rd, 2013, 8:47pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Grandma Bear
I'm confused here. Jeff, are you saying that screenplays written with perfect formatting and perfect English make better films than movies made from scripts with more emotional pull, but sucky grammar and shitty slugs?


No, Pia, I'm not saying that at all.

I'm saying that the vast majority, and I mean VAST MAJORITY of Professional scripts turned into movies are extremely poorly written.

It just may be that these so called writers are able to trick the idiot Producers into thinking they've written a great script, by using cute, cool, andwhatever else one would want toc all it "gimmicks", like asides, unfilmables, etc.

The truth is that those who don't know (and it appears many money men and women fall into this category) think a script is good, when it's hip or the likem when in reality, it sucks ass and it becomes clear when you strip all the BS away - you're left with another crappy script that turns into another crappy movie.

Kev, I'm not going to even attempt to throw out 1, 5, or 10 scripts that conform to what I preach.  Sorry, and if that makes my points mute, moot, or total BS, so be it.

Fill your scripts with worthless asides, unfilmables, tell us stuff that in theory we'll learn up front, write in fragments, forget about punctuation, litter the damn thing with orphans and wonder why your 100 page script clocks in at 80 minutes of film.

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RayW
Posted: October 23rd, 2013, 8:55pm Report to Moderator
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Some of my supporting homework:
http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-screenwrite/m-1291072262/s-all/

http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-screenwrite/m-1291999212/s-new/

https://docs.google.com/docume.....amp;authkey=CJXH2tEH


Oh! Here's where I broke down the difference between the screenplay for 'Black Swan' and the released film:
https://docs.google.com/spread.....;usp=drive_web#gid=0

IOW - no one cares if you fight for SOME things, but other things ARE important.
Recognize which is which and just... don't mess up your own chances just for the reason "to be an individual." (OMG.)



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KevinLenihan
Posted: October 23rd, 2013, 9:14pm Report to Moderator
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Ray, if you need them, I have a lot of black list scripts. You can develop and decide what style gives you the best shot to get by the gatekeepers. Not copying...developing. I am in favor of what works. I respect standards, but don't think anyone should make a fetish out of them. Make it look and smell like a pro script, and that's enough for a pro reader. After that, use what best enables you to engage the reader.
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RayW
Posted: October 23rd, 2013, 9:18pm Report to Moderator
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'Preciate it.

Write and direct your own film does the trick.

And even then, marketing is more important than content.



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KevinLenihan
Posted: October 23rd, 2013, 9:20pm Report to Moderator
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If that's what you are doing, awesome...best of luck with the project.
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KevinLenihan
Posted: October 23rd, 2013, 9:29pm Report to Moderator
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Just read this, screenplay pilot for new AMC show.


INT. HONKY TONK BAR -- NIGHT

SUPER: TEN MONTHS LATER

An honest to God COWBOY drops in a quarter, makes his punch
button selections on a jukebox. Two seconds pass until the
machine lets loose with STEEL GUITAR and MERLE HAGGARD.

The cowboy takes his mug of beer from atop the juke and
actually moseys through a late night crowd of legitimate and
gregarious country western folk spanning generations.

ANGLE ON the bar itself, tracking across its patrons--all
tough men in hats, jeans--ladies with perms, chewing gum,
heavy eyeshadow.

THE LAST MAN AT THE BAR sticks out like a sore thumb. He
isn’t country; hell, he ain’t much of anything. Ragged hair,
big glasses, thick unkempt mustache. Lots of empty mugs.

This is GORDON CLARK (31).
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mmmarnie
Posted: October 23rd, 2013, 9:29pm Report to Moderator
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Check this out...I'm going to stick up for Jeff here. I think it's important to get reviews like his because there are a lot of pro readers out there who'd stop reading after page 1 if they saw some mistakes or amateur writing like he points out. Of course we all want to hear what people think of our story but if there are issues that keep a handful of seasoned readers from reading my story...I want to know. You have no control over who reads your work when you submit it...and it could be a JEFF!!  There are probably more Jeffs out there than you think. Imagine how many amateur screenplays some of these people have to read a week.




boop
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RayW
Posted: October 23rd, 2013, 9:31pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from KevinLenihan
If that's what you are doing, awesome...best of luck with the project.

Thank you.

Best of luck with your projects, as well.



Quoted from mmmarnie
There are probably more Jeffs out there than you think. Imagine how many amateur screenplays some of these people have to read a week.

Bingo.

Don't knowingly handicap yourself.



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