Quoted from eldave1 IMO - three simple rules: 2. Rude criticism is better than no criticism. I'll take it any day.

Well, as long as it's constructive, as well.    And legitimately useful. (Which admittedly, a vast majority of SS criticism is.  In the main, we're helpful peeps!)

As for burying one's computer and p*ssing on it.  Wow, El Dave... I'm impressed.  Most I ever wanted to do was ignore a script for an hour, and browse Cracked instead...  

I think if one tries to read a script with a constructive attitude the rest will fall into place. Some people look for reasons to take down a writer. Some people look for ways to help the writer improve his work. And it can be hard to tell the difference between one approach and the other sometimes...harsh criticism can feel much like an attempt to take down a writer. Hopefully at least the person reviewing knows what motivates him or her.

In regard to this forum, I think it does very well in terms of activity. Checking out the stats on this site and they're pretty impressive. A lot of traffic passes through here. As it is content that keeps it in the search pages and corresponds directly to placement in those searches, then there can't be anything wrong with the membership either.

As writers, how many times have you had a carpenter or a bricklayer, a doorman or bartender, tell you about a great idea they have a for a story? Well, some of the time those people actually set out to write it and it all goes, unsurprisingly, wrong. Not because they need practise or constructive criticism... but because they should never have tried to do it in the first place.

I may be an ass for pointing that out, but it's also the reason there are so many screenwriters. Not to mention the ones from other countries believing screenwriting to be a meal ticket.

I've always written, for as long as I can remember. I loved the smell of books, new and old. Still do. I wrote for years and years for pleasure alone. I'm not writing for money now either, I'm writing for appreciation of my work. The biggest buzz for me comes when people like my stuff. Money comes way behind that.

I also believe that talent shines, even behind what screenwriters would term bad writing. Get a bunch of 7-year-old kids together and have them write a story, a few of them will shine way above the others. That's talent... and it's just tough for the kids that haven't got it... no doubt they would be far better off doing something else.

I'm no good with cars, or DIY... I have to get my friends to do it. I can do it, but it never goes right. I can visualise exactly what I want and how it should be done, but my hands refuse to follow instructions properly and something will always go wrong. I learned that I should stay away from DIY and get my friends to do it, or pay a professional.

Everybody gets ideas for stories, not all should attempt to write one. Harsh criticism weeds out the real writers from the fake, IMO.

I agree with everything Dustin said. But this needs to be added: all of us should be wary of dismissing another's work. We're not qualified.

Sure, there are some scripts that are hopeless. But I'm talking about the vast number of scripts and writers that have potential but need work. Most of us here are in that group. And none of us is really qualified to dismiss anyone or any work in that group.

Leaving aside the small percentage of scripts or writers that are completely hopeless, with the others we should try to take a constructive spirit to the reviewing.

Also, there is an obsession in some quarters here with the "correct" way of writing. And not just here, it exists in abundance on the fringe where people have taken courses or somehow been trained in the "rules". But this understanding of "correct" is misguided. No pro scripts are written this way. None. Zero. That includes spec scripts that get sold by unknown writers. Writers with talent. Someone will point to a poorly written pro script as proof that the pros aren't always writing the way we should. They'll say just because the pros do it doesn't make it "right". But I'm not talking about the rare cases of badly written pro scripts. I'm talking about if you read 100 pro scripts of all sorts, from specs to assigned work, you will not find any of them conforming in this rigid way. Frankly, writing in this rigid way screams amateur just as loudly as putting a draft number on the title page. And yet there are some people that will dismiss scripts because the script doesn't conform to this rigid set of rules.

And I'm not talking about breaking the "rules" because one doesn't understand them. Pro writers break them for purposeful reasons. For example, often they are trying to make the read easier or more efficient. Or they are trying to make sure certain things are clear, because lack of clarity is the biggest problem in a screenplay, and sometimes bending a rule is the best way to deal with it.

The bottom line is that people have to be careful not to dismiss scripts for foolish reasons. It's a nonconstructive approach.

O...M...G!!!!!!

Mr. Simon sure sounds like a familiar old chap around these boards...more like a broken record, really.

He quotes me exactly, and repeats himself over and over again, trying his very best to drum "his rules" into everyone else, just like he says I try to beat my nonexistent rules into other skulls.

Just write peeps.  Write the way you see fit.  Write what works for you.  If someone comes along and opens your eyes with something you weren't aware of or didn't see, make a decision if it's for you or not.

If someone completely incorrectly tells you you've written an A+ script, and you're in shock, chances are good the idiot who said that is more clueless than you are.

If someone completely correctly tells you you wrote a piece of crap script, tells you why, and you "see it", chances are good you just hit the jackpot, because that horrible review may be the best review you ever receive, if it gets you walking down the right path.

You get me?

The right path to what? To writing "correct" scripts? Lol.

Scripts that don't sell, don't impress, don't create powerful narrative, don't become films...but they're "correct". Great! To paraphrase Bill Murray, they got that goin for them.

"Peeps", the man advising you above has NEVER found a pro script that he believes is well written. Never. He can't name a single one. Go ahead, ask him. Is that the guy you want setting the standard? Is that the guy qualified to tell you your script is crap? Up to you. The standard in any field is set by pros. By definition. But to him, ALL the pros do it wrong. Their work is not "correct". Good luck with that.

Quoted from DustinBowcot In regard to this forum, I think it does very well in terms of activity. Checking out the stats on this site and they're pretty impressive. A lot of traffic passes through here. As it is content that keeps it in the search pages and corresponds directly to placement in those searches, then there can't be anything wrong with the membership either. As writers, how many times have you had a carpenter or a bricklayer, a doorman or bartender, tell you about a great idea they have a for a story? Well, some of the time those people actually set out to write it and it all goes, unsurprisingly, wrong. Not because they need practise or constructive criticism... but because they should never have tried to do it in the first place. I may be an ass for pointing that out, but it's also the reason there are so many screenwriters. Not to mention the ones from other countries believing screenwriting to be a meal ticket. I've always written, for as long as I can remember. I loved the smell of books, new and old. Still do. I wrote for years and years for pleasure alone. I'm not writing for money now either, I'm writing for appreciation of my work. The biggest buzz for me comes when people like my stuff. Money comes way behind that. I also believe that talent shines, even behind what screenwriters would term bad writing. Get a bunch of 7-year-old kids together and have them write a story, a few of them will shine way above the others. That's talent... and it's just tough for the kids that haven't got it... no doubt they would be far better off doing something else. I'm no good with cars, or DIY... I have to get my friends to do it. I can do it, but it never goes right. I can visualise exactly what I want and how it should be done, but my hands refuse to follow instructions properly and something will always go wrong. I learned that I should stay away from DIY and get my friends to do it, or pay a professional. Everybody gets ideas for stories, not all should attempt to write one. Harsh criticism weeds out the real writers from the fake, IMO.

I am kind of with you all the way until your last sentence.

My family has watched American Idol since it's inception (kind of a family thing). There are definitely contestants on that show that someone should have taken aside along time ago and said you're not a singer, never will be and need to pick a different path in life.  If this forum was the equivalent of "writing idol" - then yep, Simon Cowells are definitely needed. But in my view - it's not.

I joined the site because I enjoy writing as a hobby. I'm already retired so I have no need or hope to make money at this. I suspect that there are others with similar situations. i.e., they simply enjoy the writing experience. So I'm not sure that the objective of our criticism here should necessarily be to weed out writers. I view it as more of a sharing forum. Anyway, different strokes.

Quoted from JSimon The right path to what?

To understanding what works and what doesn't work, and more importantly, why.

If you really think it's a good idea to write, "Shit!" on an action line when a power outage conveniently hits, seconds after an inexperienced 19 year old morgue assistant gets on an elevator with the first corpse he's ever been near, to show how oh so scary the scene is, that's your choice.

You do that draw attention to this, thinking it's a good move, but in reality, you draw attention to the redonkulousness of the scene and the complete lunacy thinking that using "Shit!" like this is a good idea.

It's your choice, though, bro.  You keep writing your blind, paraplegic, virginal, whatever special, deep characters with super shoehorned in arcs, and see where it gets you.  Good luck...I think you're going to need it.

Quoted from Dreamscale You keep writing your blind, paraplegic, virginal, whatever special, deep characters with super shoehorned in arcs, and see where it gets you.  Good luck...I think you're going to need it.

Whew.

Ugh...this topic is becoming about as popular as religion and politics.  

We should do a script club instead. Then we can discuss scripts and see what works and what doesn't and why.  

There are some new writers that think Dream has something to say. And he does. But you have to keep it in proper perspective. So just ask him to name one pro script he approves of. Just one. In the long history of film, there must be one pro script he likes, or at least thinks was well done. So ask him which one.

When he doesn't give you an answer, think very hard about that.

Quoted from Grandma Bear Ugh...this topic is becoming about as popular as religion and politics.   We should do a script club instead. Then we can discuss scripts and see what works and what doesn't and why.

I'm all for that Pia.

I think we should submit risks we take and break them down.  What better way to go.  I'd even be happy to go first and let others rip my latest apart, the Tales of Horror.  I tried a lot of things and failed, and I, for one, enjoy learning how I went wrong.

Don't get me wrong, i hated getting the bad review, but, and this is a big but for me, I'd rather hear it on here from you guys where I have the opportunity to change it, as opposed to hearing that it was okay and having it tossed for those reasons.  

At least on here, you have the OPTION to listen to the advice.  If 2 or more peeps say something, I'dl listen.  At least 2 people dropped out from my story when I said "amber feels a knife enter her back."  And when I asked, I understood why.

The filmmaker can't show this.  You can't show feelings.  I understood.

Sometimes, harsh reviews can help a lot if you look at the message and ignore the "I'm out" or this is crap, like what Dustin said and gave me 1 out of 10.  Sure it hurt, but, again, I'd rather hear it then not, and then have it tossed by a pro for the reason Dustin gave it a 1.  

I "hoped" I was more along then I was.  I had a long writing background, back in the 90s, but, the world changed.  I was rusty.  

Best compliment came from Janet when she said that she felt a seasoned writer wrote it.  That was awesome.  She didn't like it, but, to me, it meant that on the road to getting better, I'm better today then I was yesterday.  Hopefully, I'll be better tomorrow then I am today.

I don't agree with Dustin in that people are fake.  I think with enough desire, anyone can write a good story.  If they are dedicated enough.  Unless they don't have the intelligence.  Don't underestimate desire.  I think I'm good enough to one day entertain people.  I know it won't be easy, but, I won't stop no matter what.  

Neither should anyone else who wants it so badly they can smell it.

Quoted from eldave1 I am kind of with you all the way until your last sentence. I joined the site because I enjoy writing as a hobby. I'm already retired so I have no need or hope to make money at this. I suspect that there are others with similar situations. i.e., they simply enjoy the writing experience. So I'm not sure that the objective of our criticism here should necessarily be to weed out writers. I view it as more of a sharing forum. Anyway, different strokes.

By real writers I count people like you too.... although I suspect you're after a little more than doing this as a hobby when you enter competitions. I too write as a hobby, but I do want more from it than that. If I didn't then I wouldn't be here. Even if I'm wrong about you though and this is solely a hobby then we are still on the same page as I count you as a real writer. Real writers are people that will write anyway... no matter what I or anyone else says, we know we are writers and nobody can tell us different.

All the bad reviews in the world wouldn't stop us. That's what I mean by my last sentence. Real writers can't be put off by bad critiques, it only makes us stronger.

Quoted from DustinBowcot By real writers I count people like you too.... although I suspect you're after a little more than doing this as a hobby when you enter competitions. I too write as a hobby, but I do want more from it than that. If I didn't then I wouldn't be here. Even if I'm wrong about you though and this is solely a hobby then we are still on the same page as I count you as a real writer. Real writers are people that will write anyway... no matter what I or anyone else says, we know we are writers and nobody can tell us different. All the bad reviews in the world wouldn't stop us. That's what I mean by my last sentence. Real writers can't be put off by bad critiques, it only makes us stronger.

I'd agree with that.  The negative reviews, yours included only makes me want to try harder to prove you wrong.  Though, it does take a few days to overcome the negativity.  But, that's the nature of the beast, isn't it?

Quoted from DustinBowcot By real writers I count people like you too.... although I suspect you're after a little more than doing this as a hobby when you enter competitions. I too write as a hobby, but I do want more from it than that. If I didn't then I wouldn't be here. Even if I'm wrong about you though and this is solely a hobby then we are still on the same page as I count you as a real writer. Real writers are people that will write anyway... no matter what I or anyone else says, we know we are writers and nobody can tell us different. All the bad reviews in the world wouldn't stop us. That's what I mean by my last sentence. Real writers can't be put off by bad critiques, it only makes us stronger.

Hmmm. The line that you don't see that I just deleted was - "No, it's just a hobby because...."

Then your comment about the competitions made me think (I fucking hate when that happens).  

Hmmm, again.

At age 20, I wanted to write (sports Journalist of all things). Instead, I got married, had two children by age 23 and spent the next 35 years as a government employee. Didn't write anything other than reports and presentations on subjects that bored me to tears.

So after retirement, I started writing and have labeled it a hobby. Your comment gave me pause. No, I wouldn't enter competitions or engage here if it were merely a hobby.

Hmmm again. I think I'm trying to recapture lost time or maybe through some success at it demonstrating that I could have been a writer instead of a bureaucrat. And now that I think about it, what end would that serve?

Hmmm.

Okay - I think I'm going to open a thread one day about 'Why One Writes? - just not today. I'm still hmmmming.