In regard to orphans, they just look lonely on their own. You most certainly can end with one though if you must.

I'm sorry for the comment but I thought that it was a seasoned writer entering a pisser. As others have noted, they said a seasoned writer had written it, so I suppose I was picking up vibes of that while seeing all the overwriting, adding it together and coming up with pisser. I actually thought it was Jeff's. So there was a bit of that in there too.

Those, lovely, lonely, misunderstood orphans.

Here's the real skinny on the little guys...

Can you have orphans in your script?  Hell yes, you can.

Should you "try" and alleviate as many or all that you can?  Hell yes, you should.

The thing is that most writers include unnecessary words in their sentences and sometimes, the sentence will spill over to the next line by 1 word, wich is known as an orphan, becuase it's all alone.  But, in reality, the orphan syndrome could be 2 words, even 3 words.

The problem with them is that they "waste" an entire line, and you only have approximately 55 lines per page, and you know all 55 cannot be used (many will be blank).

So, let's do some real quick and easy math...

You've written a 100 page feature script, and you have 2 orphans on each page...what does that translate to?  About 4 "extra" pages of nothing.  4 orphans per page?  Damn...8 wasted pages!

You can also look at it on a short with a limited page maximum, like an OWC, and hopefully you understand how the wasted space piles up and prevents you from writing important things that you want to include.

But, the bottom line is not to omit words that should be included just to kill the red headed little orphan, but look for ways to write a stronger sentence that does away with the poor, lonely little orphans.

Word to the mother...

There is another benefit from learning to reduce orphans: you learn how to be more efficient with your words. And this has a surprising pay off even if you switch to prose.

Of course, orphans really don't affect the read, so the only person that should care is the writer.

Quoted from JSimon There is another benefit from learning to reduce orphans: you learn how to be more efficient with your words. And this has a surprising pay off even if you switch to prose.

True, but remember, in prose, word count and page count don't matter.

Quoted from JSimon Of course, orphans really don't affect the read, so the only person that should care is the writer.

Not true. They affect page count and that definitely affects the read.

Quoted from Dreamscale Not true. They affect page count and that definitely affects the read.

Yes. You may end up with a whole extra page or two.

R

I have a different opinion here.

If you're trying to fight for every line of space, all your descriptions end up looking like a block. Most paragraphs would stop at the right margin then. In my eyes that's not esthetic to look at. All pages look equal then, blocks of dialogue and blocks of descriptions.

Second point: We read from left to right. The way for the eye is longer if we cross the whole page, instead of just going down and read on more often. I even heard that we're trained that our left eye controls coordination when reading; somewhere, don't know if it's true.

Third point: If you save a line, you get more words on the page as supposed and the reader will notice you packed it all up, saved a line, and packed it up again.
Sure the script's shorter – the page is not.

3 "single word" orphans within one page, that looks stupid, there I agree. So, that may relativize my disagreemnt. I mainly talk about trying to push every three word line upwards, you know. That's wrong in my o.

Dream missed my point. Orphans of course don't matter in prose. But learning how to write efficiently DOES matter. What I was saying is that the experience of writing screen and learning how to eliminate orphans has the side effect of helping the writer learn how to be more efficient with his words.

As for the orphan effect on the reading of a screenplay, it's negligible at best even if there are a lot of them. A 90 page screenplay might become 94, but you're not really reading much more...there's more white space because of the orphans.

Quoted from JSimon Dream missed my point. Orphans of course don't matter in prose. But learning how to write efficiently DOES matter. What I was saying is that the experience of writing screen and learning how to eliminate orphans has the side effect of helping the writer learn how to be more efficient with his words. As for the orphan effect on the reading of a screenplay, it's negligible at best even if there are a lot of them. A 90 page screenplay might become 94, but you're not really reading much more...there's more white space because of the orphans.

But, I read someplace that too many orphans can tell the pro reading your story that you aren't a pro and hate to say it, that can make them pass over your script.  Don't we need every little advantage we can get?

Dan

Quoted from JSimon Dream missed my point. Orphans of course don't matter in prose. But learning how to write efficiently DOES matter. What I was saying is that the experience of writing screen and learning how to eliminate orphans has the side effect of helping the writer learn how to be more efficient with his words.

I didn't miss your point.  I agreed with you.  I guess I shouldn't have mentioned the part about prose..but yes...I agree with you 100%

Quoted from JSimon As for the orphan effect on the reading of a screenplay, it's negligible at best even if there are a lot of them. A 90 page screenplay might become 94, but you're not really reading much more...there's more white space because of the orphans.

Do the math, bro.  You may be shocked.  In fact, read my words on Script Club for Black Swan.  I can't remember exactly, but do to asides and orphans, I think I said there were an extra 20 pages in the script.

Also, as I said, for a limited page count script, it can and will matter if you have lots of wasted lines, you won't be able to include what you really wanted to...maybe...

Quoted from rendevous Yes. You may end up with a whole extra page or two.R

Yep, and if you have a 12 page limit, that means 1 or 2 pages of important story/sction/dialogue won't get in there, due to your wasting lines for no fucking reason...other than you didn't edit your writing...or you don't know any better.

Notr sure about the different software that others use, but on the Sophocles I write on, I only noticed last year that orphans only show up if you look at the printer preview which shows how your script will look as a PDF. Before that I was thinking 'why have I got these orphans'? Because when you are using the software as you write, it may not look like there is an orphan but it becomes one when it converts to PDF as it must skip a line.

I dunno, mayb my page settings are out but they've been unchanged for years since I got Soph off Balt

Quoted from Dreamscale Yep, and if you have a 12 page limit, that means 1 or 2 pages of important story/sction/dialogue won't get in there, due to your wasting lines for no fucking reason...other than you didn't edit your writing...or you don't know any better.

Rubbish. I was talking about a full length script. On a short script you may end up with an extra paragraph, tops. You're being silly.

You're also ignoring the idea that a scene in a full length script should take up the right number of pages. A twelve minute scene should last around twelve pages or so, in a full length script. Just in case you're confused. Or don't know any better.

And there no need to swear. Think of the children.

R

Quoted Text You're also ignoring the idea that a scene in a full length script should take up the right number of pages.

He's right, Not because it's a rule, but I take his point. In my OWC I altered my normal writing style to reflect the time involved in the elevator. There are times you need to stretch it out. I'm not saying that to advocate orphans...I'm saying cutting pages is not ALWAYS the goal. It depends on the circumstances. Sometimes you want to add more white space and stretch it out.

Quoted from rendevous Rubbish. I was talking about a full length script. On a short script you may end up with an extra paragraph, tops. You're being silly. You're also ignoring the idea that a scene in a full length script should take up the right number of pages. A twelve minute scene should last around twelve pages or so, in a full length script. Just in case you're confused. Or don't know any better. And there no need to swear. Think of the children.

Ren, hopefully, you can do the simple math...if not, I tried to lay it out there for you.

Any scene in any script should play out (in average) to 1 page equalling 1 minute of film time.  Whether you know it or not, it doesn't on a line by line or even page by page basis, and that's based on exactly what each line or page contains.

Dialogue "can" take up more space on the page than it does on film, especially when you have multiple characters speaking in short, quick lines.

Action "can" take up more time on film because of the visuals involved, but a big setpiece scene can also take up alot of space on the page, if the writer sets the scene and action correctly.

All in all, in most cases, it's a great rule of thumb to plan for 1 page equalling 1 minute of film time, over the course of the entire script.

But...what in the heck (no swearing) does that have to do with orphans?  Answer...nothing.

And for features vs. shorts?  Really?  Again, try to do the math.  If you need to, use a calculator. It's pretty simple, 3rd or 4th grade stuff.  Every line you waste is 1 line you won't have as you near your page limit.

Thank you very much!  I'll be back each night this week and look forward to seeing all your smiling faces in the audience.  

Quoted from JSimon He's right, Not because it's a rule, but I take his point. In my OWC I altered my normal writing style to reflect the time involved in the elevator. There are times you need to stretch it out. I'm not saying that to advocate orphans...I'm saying cutting pages is not ALWAYS the goal. It depends on the circumstances. Sometimes you want to add more white space and stretch it out.

Are you saying you used orphans to pad your script?  I hope not.

Time is a serious element that all writers need to understand how to use for sure.  But using orphans to artificially pad yuor script is not the way to do it, bro.  You know that, though.  Just not sure why you'd say such a thing.