Quoted from dogglebe Sometimes you can be nice.  Sometimes you can't.

I disagree whole heartedly.  

You can always be kind, there's no sin against that.  Look here, let's say Don posts a script with the synopsis: "the story of a gyu who neds money$" in exactly that writing because we've all seen stuff like that.  We open the script up and the first page is a formatting nightmare.  We read a little bit and discover that, well, it's a stupid script.  It definitely needs alot of work.  Maybe for whatever reason you decide to read the entire 60 something pages of it(why you would, I don't know).  When you finish, you may think that it's so convoluted that the author just doesn't care.

Well, that's where perception comes into play.   When I was 16 I wrote a feature script that I thought would bring me fame and glory.  I was proud of it.  I was certain that people would like it.  I posted it on Triggerstreet for the world to see and guess what happened?  They didn't like it.  While the reviews were strongly negative, the people were still respectful, and that's an experience that I'm glad I went through and I'm grateful that they were respectful.  Now, today when I read that script I realize how it's a giant pile of dogshit because I've grown so much as a writer since then, but the point is that at that time, it was my best work.  I put forth alot of effort to it.  People on here who, as you claim, "sometimes you can't(be nice to)" may feel the same way.  

Granted, there are exceptions.  There are folks on here who DON'T take respectful advice and continue to post crap scripts, and those are situations where they're NOT giving you something to read.  In repetitive cases like that, yes, you can and should give them something they don't want to hear(but again, if the script is so crappy from page 1, why bother reading the whole thing?).  But other than that, there's no real reason why everyone can't leave respectful reviews.  

People put their "babies" up here.  If someone saw your baby and said "What kind of shit is that?!" how would you feel?

I'm not saying that everything needs to be sugarcoated like Carrie Fisher reviewing movies, but respectful feedback is what keeps people going.  It worked for me.

You know what, I read the first 10 pages of his script and the first thing that came to mind, the most pertinent point of criticism to me is the fact that his script is written like a novel. His action paragraphs are 6-7 lines long.

That's tangible and that constructive.

I think you should be allowed to be as fervent as you like in your review, good or bad, but let's just contain it to the script and the story's machinations.

What bryan could've said was "your main character is unlikable, he is a serial killer, and not a cute one like Hannibal".

Personally, I think the concept of an 80's glam metal Otto-man dude killing people who don't like glam is very funny one. What should be adressed is the fact that this dude's script...wasn't.

I know I'm new around here, but I hope everyone values my opinion as well as they value everyone else's. I think this review is garbage, because usually when I start to read a screenplay, I don't stop just because I don't like it. Screenwriting communities are there to tell you what you can improve on, and is basically a great learning experience. I think attacking the author is unacceptable, because it's just putting him down, and the author might not even want to write another screenplay after that.

Just my opinion.

Quoted from bert The topic at hand, in a nutshell, is how much bashing is too much?

Too much?  No such animal.  Just make sure that the punishment fits the crime.

The worst scripts on these boards (IMHO) comes from a guy named Max Alexander Malloy.  He's dropped three turds on these boards and, as far as I can tell, has never looked at the feedback.  I've taken a red pen and a blow torch to two of his scripts; they are that bad (read me).  Other people's scripts I've had problems with but critiqued it accordingly (read The Curse of America's Last Raped Slave if you don't believe me).  Other people's scripts I've had problems with but critiqued it accordingly.

If you can back up your criticism, then you should be able to express yourself.


Phil

I agree that the, “What kind of s*** is that?” line has no place in a review. There’s too much profanity in the open forum. People need to leave that stuff in their scripts.

As far as the rest of the review itself, I don’t see that the reviewer was really cruel. If a reader finds a script to be morally indefensible, I think they have a right to say so. It’s true that Bryan generally posts very short reviews that aren’t always very helpful. And they are usually too harsh, in my opinion. But, other than the s*** line - which shouldn’t be there - in this case I don’t see anything really wrong with his assessment. It may or may not be my own assessment, but I have personally found a script morally indefensible before and didn’t hesitate to say so. Nor should I. Nor should anyone.


Breanne

I think there's too many snobs that aren't even putting a real effort into fully reading a screenplay. That guy that reviewed that screenplay is a snob, he downgrades the author, which I think is totally unfair. The author put hours into it, and probably meant well, but that review was just a giant turd dropped on it.

I don't think that was harsh, that was bull S, all the guy was trying to do was downgrade the author.

Quoted Text I think there's too many snobs that aren't even putting a real effort into fully reading a screenplay.

I appreciate your sentiment, but also remember that it takes a good amount of time to read a screenplay and perhaps even longer to review it thoroughly.

I can earn a lot of money in the time it takes to do that, or I can do something that benefits myself in some way.

If it seems that someone hasn't even made an effort (like spell checking for example) it can seem like an insult to even be expected to read a script.

I always try and be constructive with criticism but even then people get offended.

I understand it takes a while to review them, I have reviewed screenplays before. It's probably more difficult than writing the whole thing, I just don't think this guy even put a thought into a review. It makes me question if he even read any of it, and just read the synopsis. His review was dismal.

Quoted from Breanne Mattson I agree that the, “What kind of s*** is that?” line has no place in a review. There’s too much profanity in the open forum. People need to leave that stuff in their scripts. As far as the rest of the review itself, I don’t see that the reviewer was really cruel. If a reader finds a script to be morally indefensible, I think they have a right to say so. It’s true that Bryan generally posts very short reviews that aren’t always very helpful. And they are usually too harsh, in my opinion. But, other than the s*** line - which shouldn’t be there - in this case I don’t see anything really wrong with his assessment. It may or may not be my own assessment, but I have personally found a script morally indefensible before and didn’t hesitate to say so. Nor should I. Nor should anyone. Breanne

Personally I don't feel profanity is the problem. One can express a very articulate opinion rife with profanity, but that's a whole different discussion.

The problem with Bryan's review is that they are not helpful. It does not help the reader  to be told his story is morally reprehensible, because what you're telling him is, essentially, that his morals clash with yours. that he can't work on.

Saying that a character is unlikable, giving examples of how this is so and what could be done to ammend it, will both help the author identify his mistakes and help him correct them, because they deal with craft.

Just like one-word reviews, saying something is morally indefensible, and nothing else, is useless, IMO.

I.e. "Dude, your script was really boring! It was totally slow and the jokes weren't funny" might be 100% true, but it's not a review.

Quoted from Stigmata I know I'm new around here, but I hope everyone values my opinion as well as they value everyone else's.

Oh, you think so?  Just wait until after school.  You and me got a date by the tetherball pole.

Quoted from Stigmata I think this review is garbage, because usually when I start to read a screenplay, I don't stop just because I don't like it. Screenwriting communities are there to tell you what you can improve on, and is basically a great learning experience. I think attacking the author is unacceptable, because it's just putting him down, and the author might not even want to write another screenplay after that.

When I first joined this group, I read the scripts in their entirety.  After reading so many stinkers, I gave up on this practice.  Now, I read the first ten to twenty pages, which is what agents and producers do.  If I like it, I keep reading it.  If I think the characters are lifeless and/or the story is going nowhere and/or there's big problems in it, I stop.  Scripts that start out poorly don't get better after twenty pages...no matter what the author says.  I read the scripts because I like to; if I'm reading one that makes my sphincter tighten, I put it down.

Quoted from Stigmata I understand it takes a while to review them, I have reviewed screenplays before. It's probably more difficult than writing the whole thing, I just don't think this guy even put a thought into a review. It makes me question if he even read any of it, and just read the synopsis. His review was dismal.

Having the script open up with the hero shooting someone over his taste in music like finding a roach in your breakfast cereal; you don't hope the second bowl is roach-free.  You toss it all out.

Good use of semi-colons, eh?


Phil

Quoted Text I read the first ten to twenty pages, which is what agents and producers do

I was taking to a producer the other day (No names!) who wouldn't even go that far.

He was telling me of all the different ways producers he knows look at scripts and the way he evaluates them himself. He reckoned you could even tell what the script was going to be like from the name of the writer and the postal code.

Anything written by a "Mrs" was straight in the bin because he knew it would be a domestic story that went nowhere.

Anyway, I digress...

Quoted Text Now, I read the first ten to twenty pages, which is what agents and producers do.  If I like it, I keep reading it.  If I think the characters are lifeless and/or the story is going nowhere and/or there's big problems in it, I stop.  Scripts that start out poorly don't get better after twenty pages...no matter what the author says.  I read the scripts because I like to; if I'm reading one that makes my sphincter tighten, I put it down.

You've said this as long as I've been here so it's not outdated.  It's a respectable approach, but I'm curious...

Quoted Text He's dropped three turds on these boards and, as far as I can tell, has never looked at the feedback.  I've taken a red pen and a blow torch to two of his scripts; they are that bad (read me).  Other people's scripts I've had problems with but critiqued it accordingly (read The Curse of America's Last Raped Slave if you don't believe me).

If this script is so bad, why stick to your normal formula, let alone read another one of his scripts?  No offense, but that sounds alot like stuffing socks down your pants.  

Quoted from Death Monkey It does not help the reader  to be told his story is morally reprehensible, because what you're telling him is, essentially, that his morals clash with yours. that he can't work on.

I disagree. It’s a mistake to assume that a morally reprehensible character reflects in any way on the personal morality of the writer. We have all written morally reprehensible characters at some time or another. That doesn’t speak anything toward our own personal morality.

When I find a script morally indefensible, that doesn’t mean the writer’s personal morality conflicts with mine. I probably wouldn’t know the author well enough to make that determination. What it means is that something in that script so offended me as to make me quit reading it. That’s all it means.

There is one script at this site that was so offensive to women that I refused to read it. I don’t know why the author wrote it. It could be he hated women. It could mean he did a lousy job at satirizing. Either way, he needed to know there was something repulsive to women about what he’d written.

Quoted from Death Monkey I.e. "Dude, your script was really boring! It was totally slow and the jokes weren't funny" might be 100% true, but it's not a review.

Boring is a fair criticism. I would want to know why it was boring. But if it really is boring, that’s fair to say.


Breanne

Quoted from Breanne Mattson I disagree. It’s a mistake to assume that a morally reprehensible character reflects in any way on the personal morality of the writer. We have all written morally reprehensible characters at some time or another. That doesn’t speak anything toward our own personal morality. When I find a script morally indefensible, that doesn’t mean the writer’s personal morality conflicts with mine. I probably wouldn’t know the author well enough to make that determination. What it means is that something in that script so offended me as to make me quit reading it. That’s all it means. There is one script at this site that was so offensive to women that I refused to read it. I don’t know why the author wrote it. It could be he hated women. It could mean he did a lousy job at satirizing. Either way, he needed to know there was something repulsive to women about what he’d written.

Well, the difference is the same. You're telling him the morals of the script he wrote clashes with your own, right? Morals aren't absolutes, they're not objective, you can't review them like you can plot-points and character arcs.

Just like someone writing "your main character is too liberal" isn't a constructive critique.

Quoted Text Boring is a fair criticism. I would want to know why it was boring. But if it really is boring, that’s fair to say. Breanne

That was my point. Saying that something is boring, slow or unfunny without backing it up isn't a review. The same can be said for Bryan. Had he formulated his criticism as to the character's likeability and that it clashed with the serious tone of the film, then okay fine, put it in there. But is it stands right now, it's pretty worthless, IMO.

"Note to self: make script less morally indefensible", you know...

Quoted from greg If this script is so bad, why stick to your normal formula, let alone read another one of his scripts?  No offense, but that sounds alot like stuffing socks down your pants.

First of all, what I stuff down my pants is none of your business!

In the case of these scripts, they're so bad that they're enjoyable to read.  And it's such a learning experience on how not to write a script.  Read five pages of it.  G'wan.  I dare ya!  If it means anything, Clipping the Wings of our White Masters was so bad that even Balt was offended.

Balt!

That script must've sucked a lot of goat balls.


Phil